Where are they in the word of God?

ViaCrucis · Feb 28, 2024

MegChristian said:
Hello CryptoLutheran, first, I loved your post on denominations at the beginning of this thread. You did a fantastic job of summarizing the history of the growth and fragmentation of the Church at large.

That being said, I respectfully disagree with your assertion that our "view of Christianity is shaped by ideas of other men". In some ways there is some truth to this statement, but I think this is oversimplified. We all turn to someone more advanced as Christians to help us figure out how to make faith work in real life, but some of us, myself in particular, do not seek out a single denominational source for teaching. It has been my experience that if a Christian is reading the Bible for oneself, when we listen to someone teach, we will know how accurate the teacher is. If you know your Bible, that frees a person from depending on one source and opens avenues to seek specific answers to specific questions, something I personally have found very beneficial.

I would never suggest anyone rely on any single individual. Though I am myself a Lutheran (I wasn't always, I became Lutheran later in life) I find a great deal of help from people from many different traditions.

What I meant is that nobody comes to the Bible as a blank slate; we all approach the Bible with ideas, assumptions, presumptions, prejudices, and biases which may or may not have been shaped by our faith communities. Some people, without much experience in the Church, may approach the Bible based on a very fragmentary set of ideas that they heard growing up, either from Christians, non-Christians, and perhaps having their own assumptions and filters through which they heard those things.

It's not that we must look to a human person as some kind of guru; it's that we all are products of our environment and perceptions; we all have our own experiences, and we all come from different backgrounds. So even someone who has zero knowledge about Christianity will still come to the Bible with their own experiences.

That also means that one of the responsibilities of the Church is to help guide and inform--to teach. It's not about having a "teacher", I think it's dangerous to rely on a single individual. But there is instead a collective work of teaching, pastors, teachers, scholars, theologians, biblical exegetes, etc; and all of those different voices serve a benefit in teaching and helping to shape us as we grow in our faith and knowledge of Scripture.

I do, admittedly, consider Lutheran sources generally more highly than non-Lutheran ones. That is a bias I have, but it is in part an intentional bias. There are reasons why I'm Lutheran rather than Baptist or Catholic. It has nothing to do with brand, or tribal affiliation. Instead it is the product of a conviction that what I have found within this historic expression of the Christian faith, called "Lutheranism", is the most biblically faithful, the most theologically true, and that it is historically grounded.

When I call myself a Lutheran I'm not saying "I belong to Martin Luther", or "I follow Martin Luther". I'm saying that this particular confession of Christian faith has convinced me to be the most true--biblically, theologically, doctrinally. I am also admitting to myself that it shouldn't be up to me to re-invent the wheel. I believe there is a faithful, historic, confessional way of being a Christian that already exists, my personal responsibility, therefore, is to conform myself to what is biblically and historically Christian--to "contend for the faith once and for all delivered to the saints" as Jude says in his epistle.

We all do that, or something like that. Whether we are part of a globe-spanning communion of over a billion people (e.g. the Roman Catholic Church), or part of a small Baptist community in Small Town America. Or that non-denominational church that still has teaching and practice that it has inherited from what came before it (usually a combination of Baptist and Charismatic traditions).

It would, therefore, be dishonest to say we don't. We all learn the faith, grow in it, by hearing and reading and practicing. That's unavoidable.

-CryptoLutheran

The Liturgist · Feb 28, 2024

jas3 said:
I've found this to be the case as well. It's unfortunate because it's easy to spend a long time and a lot of effort writing detailed responses to things hoping you can help even one person in his spiritual journey, only to have the person you were responding to ignore everything you wrote. There is an unfortunately large number of people who are more interested in airing their own opinions than in having a discussion.

Prelest is a topic I never heard addressed growing up Methodist, but have learned about as I have begun to read more Eastern Orthodox writers in the last few years. It's definitely something that should have more awareness in all Christian circles.

I myself also grew up Methodist, but unfortunately I can’t even remember any elders preaching about the Trinity or basic dogmatic theology, much less Wesley’s views on salvation which are inspired by those of the Orthodox, with whom he was closely connected. Rather, the majority of preaching consisted of centrist moralistic platitudes and some vague scriptural exposition.

Prelest is a very useful concept, and one which I think needs to be imported into Western Christianity, just as Theosis was imported, as entire sanctification, and more recently, Byzantine style icons and the Jesus Prayer have been imported.

The Liturgist · Feb 28, 2024

ViaCrucis said:
When I call myself a Lutheran I'm not saying "I belong to Martin Luther", or "I follow Martin Luther". I'm saying that this particular confession of Christian faith has convinced me to be the most true--biblically, theologically, doctrinally. I am also admitting to myself that it shouldn't be up to me to re-invent the wheel. I believe there is a faithful, historic, confessional way of being a Christian that already exists, my personal responsibility, therefore, is to conform myself to what is biblically and historically Christian--to "contend for the faith once and for all delivered to the saints" as Jude says in his epistle.

Indeed, also many Lutherans such as our friend @MarkRohfrietsch prefer to identify as Evangelical Catholic.

I attended and loved an LCMS parochial school and greatly appreciate Lutheranism. Indeed the only issue on which I disagree with most Lutherans about is intercessory prayer to the saints, which has become an important part of my prayer life since I began to involve myself in Anglicanism and Orthodoxy in 2013 and 2014 after a background in Congregationalism.

The Liturgist · Feb 28, 2024

chrisovery said:
I prayed and then I studied the word.

Me too. Why do you suppose then that we don’t agree on doctrine? Since we both prayed and studied the Bible for many years before reaching our current, diametrically opposed perspectives?

The Liturgist · Feb 28, 2024

chrisovery said:
Where are denominations in the Bible? Please share scripture.

By the way, you are right, in my opinion, about one thing, and that is that the church is not supposed to be divided. However, I disagree with your understanding of church history, or your opinions on the sacraments, Lent, St. Nicholas and pretty much anything else. And like you, my position was the result of reading scripture and prayer.

MarkRohfrietsch · Feb 29, 2024

chrisovery said:
Where are denominations in the Bible? Please share scripture.

Pharisees and Sadducees just to name two early divisions. In Catholicism, there are various "rites" and "Religious Orders"... Always has been; just never always called them that. Sects has been another term used in the past..

chrisovery · Feb 29, 2024

Study to show thyself approved before God.

People will go listen to fables and doctrines by men that tickle their ears but have no true substance of the gospel.

If we ask God for wisdom with all faith, He will give it to us.

Paul went into the wilderness and studied with the guidance of Christ for 3yrs. By himself and then came back to preach the Gospel.

chrisovery · Feb 29, 2024

The Liturgist said:
By the way, you are right, in my opinion, about one thing, and that is that the church is not supposed to be divided. However, I disagree with your understanding of church history, or your opinions on the sacraments, Lent, St. Nicholas and pretty much anything else. And like you, my position was the result of reading scripture and prayer.

Where are we told to keep lent in the Bible, or to have the bunny that represents the fertile goddess of paganism. Show me where Jesus was born on December 25th like the false god of paganism. Yes these are all man taught traditions. St Nicholas some how became Santa clause.

The Liturgist · Feb 29, 2024

chrisovery said:
Where are we told to keep lent in the Bible, or to have the bunny that represents the fertile goddess of paganism. Show me where Jesus was born on December 25th like the false god of paganism. Yes these are all man taught traditions. St Nicholas some how became Santa clause.

I have provided explanations on these issues as have other members on the forum, and I am disinclined to repeat myself, so I suggest you simply look up any number of threads on this issue.

linux.poet · Mar 4, 2024

As I wrote long ago, I was raised in Evangelical Non-denominational churches and my thoughts and ideas are largely a product of that background. However, after an education in English and spending some time on this forum, I refuse to be limited by my background and prefer to freely explore the arena of Christian ideas without getting too particular about who is supporting them. This is why I do not slap myself with the “Non-denom” faith label.

I do think my background does inspire me to avoid certain ideas, such as obvious cults and Mormonism (my uncle fought against the latter for years) but I should be free to read Catholic books and sources from other denominations without self-condemnation. I also don’t like fighting with my friends for their church choices, as two of them are Presbyterian and I get along with them well enough anyway.

It might be worth keeping in mind, @ViaCrucis, that Non-denominational churches and members exist here on CF, and they are a recognized faith group. Not every church is part of a recognized denomination, a central theological governance, or even named. That doesn’t mean that they aren’t Christians. It also doesn’t mean that they don’t have a faith background, but that faith background doesn’t have a denomination. It just doesn’t have a name.

jas3 · Mar 4, 2024

linux.poet said:
It might be worth keeping in mind, @ViaCrucis, that Non-denominational churches and members exist here on CF, and they are a recognized faith group. Not every church is part of a recognized denomination, a central theological governance, or even named. That doesn’t mean that they aren’t Christians. It also doesn’t mean that they don’t have a faith background, but that faith background doesn’t have a denomination.

This paragraph doesn't seem to follow from the rest of the thread. I don't see where anyone questioned whether nondenoms are Christians, whether they exist as an identifiable faith group, or whether they have a faith background.

linux.poet · Mar 4, 2024

jas3 said:
This paragraph doesn't seem to follow from the rest of the thread. I don't see where anyone questioned whether nondenoms are Christians, whether they exist as an identifiable faith group, or whether they have a faith background.

What @ViaCrucis has been arguing is that all Christians have a denomination because all Christians have a faith background, i.e. people who told us about Christ and the Gospel.

What I am pointing out is that some faith backgrounds don’t have a denominational identification, which is primarily evidenced by the existence of non-denominational churches.

jas3 · Mar 4, 2024

linux.poet said:
What @ViaCrucis has been arguing is that all Christians have a denomination because all Christians have a faith background, i.e. people who told us about Christ and the Gospel.

ViaCrucis can correct me if I'm wrong, but from my reading his argument is not that everyone has a denomination, but that faith backgrounds are inherently tied to denominations since denominations are defined by differences in doctrine. A modern nondenominational Christian doesn't come up with credobaptism on his own, he learns about it from people who themselves learned about it from people before them, and so on back to the Anabaptists.

linux.poet said:
What I am pointing out is that some faith backgrounds don’t have a denominational identification, which is primarily evidenced by the existence of non-denominational churches.

The particular combination of one's beliefs might not have a denominational identification, but the individual beliefs almost certainly do. The only alternatives I can imagine are that a certain belief might be unique to nondenominationalism (but then that would be a distinctive belief and would therefore identify a denomination) or to say that a certain belief has been held since the time of the Apostles

ViaCrucis · Mar 5, 2024

linux.poet said:
What @ViaCrucis has been arguing is that all Christians have a denomination because all Christians have a faith background, i.e. people who told us about Christ and the Gospel.

What I am pointing out is that some faith backgrounds don’t have a denominational identification, which is primarily evidenced by the existence of non-denominational churches.

"Denomination" is just naming something. While non-denominational churches don't identify with a denomination, or with a specific theological tradition (though that should have an * next to it here); it is, I'd argue, a distinction without a difference.

Non-denominationalism, as an ecclesiastical identity, means not part of a larger organized structure of churches; an independent congregation. Though, in some cases, even that isn't necessarily true, Calvary Chapel does not identify as a denomination, but as non-denominational; but yet it is still a structure with multiple congregations in fellowship together. A rose by any other name, as Shakespeare wrote.

But more to the point, if one were to do an examination among, say, two hundred non-denominational churches across the US and Canada (just as an example), there are going to be a lot of shared beliefs and ideas. I'm not saying it's not impossible, but it's unlikely to find any of these non-denominational churches that follow a more structured liturgical format, or a belief in the real bodily presence of Jesus in the Lord's Supper, or who baptize infants. It's going to be, more-or-less the same across the board: The service will be split between a singing portion of the service, most likely using identifiable "praise and worship" music, it may be more Hillsong-y, or it may more subdued, and there probably will be a couple hymns at least in the mix. The singing portion of the service will be followed up prayer, Scripture reading, and a sermon. If the Lord's Supper is celebrated that Sunday, it will probably be small crackers or wafers, with individual small cups of grape juice (not wine), and the general understanding will be that the Lord's Supper is a memorial, symbolic ritual rather than a literal eating and drinking of the Lord's body and blood. There is a high likelihood that there will be an invitation to conversion through confession of sin and acceptance of Christ, often by coming up to the front to the altar for prayer and counsel. The church probably doesn't put a lot of emphasis on baptism, but will talk about baptism as a personal choice to make a public affirmation of faith, as an act of obedience to Jesus--and only already-believers who are of a certain age or level of understanding will be eligible to receive baptism, which will be by full immersion (never triple immersion, or pouring, or sprinkling).

That is to say: there are through-lines of doctrine and practice that virtually all non-denominational churches have; and it shows a prevailing influence of particular theological traditions and religious movements. Such churches are not Baptist, but share a lot of key commonalities with the Baptist tradition. There is a strong influence from 19th century American Revivalism and Pietism, with a strong focus on Decisionist theology rooted in the Neo-Evangelical tradition that emerged in the early 20th century, following the Second Great Awakening of the 19th century. When talking about salvation, Bill Bright's Four Spiritual Laws are probably pretty well known and well respected as an evangelism tool.

None of this is intended to put down or belittle--but merely an observation.

That non-denominationalism has, on its own, a distinct character, and is within a particular theological tradition. Even if it doesn't identify with a particular label. It doesn't identify as "Baptist", but that's really just semantics.

This isn't me talking down on non-denominationalism; I'm simply trying to point out that non-denominationalism isn't an alternative to more classic denominations. It's more like, taking the labeling off a package, but the contents are still more-or-less the same. If I remove the Dasani label from my water bottle, it may not say Dasani, but it's still the same thing on the onside.

-CryptoLutheran

chrisovery · Monday at 7:13 PM

We have been taught many wrong things of what church is and denominations have caused many divisions in the body of Christ as well as the teachings of what church, ministry, salvation really is and about.

chrisovery · Monday at 7:18 PM

Jimmy It said:
Well, here are names/titles used in scripture. I simply copied from this site. Church names

Assembly of the saints.
Psalm 89:7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.

Assembly of the upright.
Psalm 111:1 Praise ye the LORD. I will praise the LORD with my whole heart, in the assembly of the upright, and in the congregation.

Body of Christ.
Ephesians 1:22-23 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Branch of God's planting.
Isaiah 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

Bride of Christ.
Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Church of God.
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Church of the Living God.
1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Church of the first-born.
Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

City of the Living God.
Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Congregation of saints.
Psalm 149:1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.

Congregation of the Lord's poor.
Psalm 74:19 O deliver not the soul of thy turtledove unto the multitude of the wicked: forget not the congregation of thy poor for ever.

Dove.
Song of Solomon 2:14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.
Song of Solomon 5:2 I sleep, but my heart waketh: it is the voice of my beloved that knocketh, saying, Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night.

Family in heaven and earth.
Ephesians 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Flock of God.
Ezekiel 34:15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD.
1 Peter 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Fold of Christ.
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

General assembly of the first-born.
Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Golden candlestick.
Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

God's building.
1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

God's husbandry.
1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

God's heritage.
Joel 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
1 Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

Habitation of God.
Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Heavenly of Jerusalem.
Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Holy city.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Holy mountain.
Zechariah 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

Holy hill.
Psalm 15:1 LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?

House of God.
1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Hebrews 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

House of the God of Jacob.
Isaiah 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

House of Christ.
Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Household of God.
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Inheritance.
Psalm 28:9 Save thy people, and bless thine inheritance: feed them also, and lift them up for ever.
Isaiah 19:25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

Israel of God.
Galatians 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

King's daughter.
Psalm 45:13 The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold.

Lamb's wife.
Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Lot of God's inheritance.
Deuteronomy 32:9 For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

Mount Zion.
Psalm 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Mountain of the Lord's house.
Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

New Jerusalem.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Pillar and ground of the truth.
1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Sanctuary of God.
Psalm 114:2 Judah was his sanctuary, and Israel his dominion.

Spiritual house.
1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Sought out, a city not forsaken.
Isaiah 62:12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

Temple of God.
1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Temple of the Living God.
2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Vineyard.
Jeremiah 12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.
Matthew 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Not sure if this is what you had in mind.

Kind of, the seventh churches in Revelation were people in The body of Christ in cities, not denominations.

Palmfever · Monday at 7:18 PM

1 Cor 12:12
There is one body, but it has many parts. But all its many parts make up one body. It is the same with Christ. 13 We were all baptized by one Holy Spirit. And so we are formed into one body. It didn’t matter whether we were Jews or Gentiles, slaves or free people. We were all given the same Spirit to drink. 14 So the body is not made up of just one part. It has many parts.

15 Suppose the foot says, “I am not a hand. So I don’t belong to the body.” By saying this, it cannot stop being part of the body. 16 And suppose the ear says, “I am not an eye. So I don’t belong to the body.” By saying this, it cannot stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, how could it hear? If the whole body were an ear, how could it smell? 18 God has placed each part in the body just as he wanted it to be. 19 If all the parts were the same, how could there be a body? 20 As it is, there are many parts. But there is only one body.

chrisovery · Monday at 7:30 PM

Palmfever said:
1 Cor 12:12
There is one body, but it has many parts. But all its many parts make up one body. It is the same with Christ. 13 We were all baptized by one Holy Spirit. And so we are formed into one body. It didn’t matter whether we were Jews or Gentiles, slaves or free people. We were all given the same Spirit to drink. 14 So the body is not made up of just one part. It has many parts.

15 Suppose the foot says, “I am not a hand. So I don’t belong to the body.” By saying this, it cannot stop being part of the body. 16 And suppose the ear says, “I am not an eye. So I don’t belong to the body.” By saying this, it cannot stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, how could it hear? If the whole body were an ear, how could it smell? 18 God has placed each part in the body just as he wanted it to be. 19 If all the parts were the same, how could there be a body? 20 As it is, there are many parts. But there is only one body.

Love the scripture, however that is not for or about denominations. Most denominations have a thought and are taught that they are the only true church and body of Christ. They've made it more about everything you do for them and less about ministering Christ to the lost. Many people spend more time trying to get people to notice them and their good works and church more than Christ. That is a serious issue. We are not saved by church homes and denominations or pastors. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ.

ViaCrucis · 2026-02-25T08:25:53-0600

chrisovery said:
Where are we told to keep lent in the Bible,

It's right in the same spot that says we are to drive cars, eat pizza, and use computers.

chrisovery said:
or to have the bunny that represents the fertile goddess of paganism.

Uh oh, someone's been duped by 19th century Christ Myth Theorists.

The Easter bunny (Easter hare) doesn't represent a fertility goddess. Let's be clear that the Easter bunny has literally nothing to do with the Christian observance of the Paschal Feast (aka Easter).

If you have knowledge that real academics, historians, archeologists, and scholars from a diverse range of fields don't have access to, then you should probably get that information into a peer reviewed paper.

chrisovery said:
Show me where Jesus was born on December 25th

Jesus probably wasn't born on December 25th. Though Christians arrived at that opinion early on based on doing calculations entirely independent of Pagan ideas or practices.

chrisovery said:
like the false god of paganism.

You mean Sol Invictus? There's no evidence that the late cult of Sol Invictus regarded December 25th the birthday of the sun until well over a hundred years after Christians were already mentioning December 25th as a possible day the Lord was born.

The earliest Christians were talking about December 25th and Jesus' birth in the early 3rd century. The first mention of the Dies Natalis Sol Invicti isn't until the Chronograph of 354 AD, that's mid 4th century.

chrisovery said:
Yes these are all man taught traditions. St Nicholas some how became Santa clause.

Santa Claus is--literally--St. Nicolas. That is, Santa = Saint; Clause is a diminutive of the name Nicholas. Modern Santa Claus is primarily an American invention. Early Dutch settlers (New Amsterdam, later New York after it became British) brought their customs associated with the Feast Day of St. Nicholas (December 6th). Those customs didn't go away, but were integrated into the emerging fabric of American colonial, cosmopolitan culture. Given the history of St. Nicholas of Myra as a generous man, with stories about how he gave away his inherited family wealth to the poor, and used it to help out poor families in desperate need.

One way of remembering St. Nicholas' charity, and using it as a teaching tool for children, was to have children leave their shoes outside on the Eve of St. Nicholas Day, parents would leave a coin in the shoe and attribute it to St. Nicholas coming at night (a fun way to learn about the saint and teach children the virtue of charity).

In England there was a folk figure that emerged in the 17th century, Father Christmas, a personification of Christmas time cheer and merrymaking.

In the American colonies the Sinterklaas and Father Christmas traditions emerged, in time, to create the figure of Santa Claus. Which is how we get the famous poem from Clement Clarke Moore, 'Twas the Night Before Christmas.

Honestly: Please do some real study. Parroting things you heard on the internet, or in a YouTube video without having put any real effort into learning doesn't offer valid arguments, it only shows that you are unconcerned with truth.

Go and learn the truth of these things. You'll be shocked at just how much ignorance abounds on some really simple matters.

Repeating these old tired lies is like when someone says that Christopher Columbus sailed west to prove the earth was round. It's a common error that nobody in the Information Age ought to still believe. Old lies, especially popular lies, hard hard to kill. But we don't have to believe them, we can educate ourselves.

Wilb6487 · 2026-02-25T12:29:29-0600

chrisovery said:
Where are denominations in the Bible? Please share scripture.

1 Corinthians 1: 12
What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?"

Not only are these denominations ( which literally means "divisions" ), but Paul clearly reveals what they inherently do to the Body of Christ.

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Where are they in the word of God?

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