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Sabbath Keeping and The Gospel

SabbathBlessings

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What you claimed I disagreed with
And I said at the time:

The writers of the SDA Bible Commentary, and Ellen White I think we can all agree thought people should keep the Sabbath. But they recognize that the rest spoken of in Hebrews is entering into faith.

SabbathBlessing said to you Sabbath Keeping and The Gospel

So, whatever you think of her interpretation, she did not just go with the Adventist commentary.
My response:

I don't recall saying there are two Sabbaths in Heb4, so perhaps you are not understanding the premise of my argument. Its about two different rests. The Sabbath-rest is always on the seventh day Exo20:10 Heb4:4 Exo 20:1, Exo20:11 Luke23:56 the spiritual rest in Christ we enter by faith. Heb4:2

You do disagree with them.
Than you quoted a non-Adventist to claim I disagreed with EGW and SDA commentary trying to cause division when there was none.
You said there were two distinct rests. They did not. You said the words are used two different ways. They said they are used more or less synonymously. You say Sabbatismos refers to the weekly Sabbath. They say that the context doesn't fit that, and that Joshua not leading them into Spiritual rest would be no reason for the Christian to observe the Sabbath.


The writer of Hebrews appears to use katapausis and sabbatismos more or less synonymously. Because Joshua could not lead Israel into spiritual "rest" (katapausis, v. 8), a sabbatismos (v. 9) remains for Christians. Consistency seems to require that what remains be the same as what was there to begin with. Because Joshua did not lead literal Israel into spiritual "rest" would be no reason for the Christian to observe the Sabbath.

You are not saying the same thing.
 
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Studyman

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I see the point the Scriptures are making, and already discussed it. The Scriptures are reliable. The point you are making I do not see. That we should ignore the actual judgment of the Apostles, elders, and that the Holy Spirit agreed with.
Sorry, I wasn't responding to your generic take on the Pharisees, which you have repeated at length. Of course the Pharisees did not truly keep God's law, or understand His word, but especially because they missed the One it spoke of.

I was responding to the actual text of Acts 15:

Acts 15:1-11​
1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”
These folks were contending they had to be circumcised to be saved. That is in the text.

To be honest, it isn't "my generic take" as I have tried to show you. It is Jesus' Take and it is the foundation of this discussion. I will try one more time to reason with you in Scriptures, with Scriptures. Though I fear your religion doesn't allow you to hear much of God's Word.

Nevertheless;

Abram "was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran. Gen. 15:6 And he (Abram) believed in the LORD; and he (God) "counted it to him for righteousness". Gen. 17:24, " And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin." So Abram and Lot followed God for 24 years being uncircumcised. And God counted his believe as righteousness, While he was not circumcised.

These Words, written down by Moses, existed in the Law and Prophets that the Pharisees and Corrupt Priests read every Sabbath Day. For Centuries the religious leadership of the Jews, knew of these Truths about God concerning Circumcision. But they rejected them, and created a religion that taught for doctrines the Commandments of men, a religion that taught men, " had to be circumcised to be saved".

Joshua 3: 14 And it came to pass, when the people removed from their tents, to pass over Jordan, and the priests bearing the ark of the covenant before the people; 15 And as they that bare the ark were come unto Jordan, and the feet of the priests that bare the ark were dipped in the brim of the water, (for Jordan overfloweth all his banks all the time of harvest,) 16 "That the waters which came down from above stood and rose up upon an heap" very far from the city Adam, that is beside Zaretan: and those that came down toward the sea of the plain, even the salt sea, failed, and were cut off: and the people passed over right against Jericho. 17 And the priests that bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD stood firm on dry ground in the midst of Jordan, "and all the Israelites passed over on dry ground", "until all the people were passed clean over Jordan."

God brought these men across the Jordan, into the Promised And, on Dry Ground, "While Uncircumcised". The Pharisees and Scribes knew of these Words of Moses for centuries, but like so many, they had adopted a religion that omits the weightier matters of God's Law, and created their own religion, after the imagination of their own hearts. A religion that required that a man "had to be circumcised to be saved".

Joshua 5: 3 And Joshua made him sharp knives, and circumcised the children of Israel at the hill of the foreskins. 4 And this is the cause why Joshua did circumcise: All the people that came out of Egypt, that were males, even all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt. 5 Now all the people that came out were circumcised:

They were all Circumcised, YET, they all died in the Wilderness. So clearly the teaching of the Jews, " they had to be circumcised to be saved", is another falsehood, proven wrong by Moses himself.

but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.

And yet God brought them through the waters of Jordan, into the Promised Land, "While Uncircumcised". So again, these Words existed in their Scriptures and were read every Sabbath Day, but the Pharisees didn't promote them, and created for doctrines the Commandments of men, the Tradition of the Pharisees, that men "had to be circumcised to be saved". And once again their philosophy is proven wrong by Moses Himself.

Naaman, a Syrian, "Uncircumcised" was Saved by God, of his Leprosy. Elijah raised from the dead, an uncircumcised boy, Jesus even mentions this in His Testimony. Proving once again, that the Pharisees Law, that a man "had to be circumcised to be saved" was from man and not from God.

I point these things out to you to show you that according to the Law and Prophets it was NEVER God's Law that a man "had to be physically circumcised to be saved". And only by selecting a cherry picked scripture, then separating it from the rest of the Bible, and then creating an entire philosophy based on the words of the selected verse, could this doctrine be supported. Which is what we have been trained to do by this world's religions that exist in the world God placed us in.

Duet. 10: 16 Circumcise therefore "the foreskin of your heart", and be no more stiffnecked. 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: 18 He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment. 19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Is this not Circumcision after the manner of Moses? Yet where is this taught by the Pharisees?

Paul tries to teach you this, just as he taught the Jews and Gentiles of his time, but men don't believe him. He didn't teach against the Circumcision of God, as you promote, but he taught the Circumcision Abram had, before the Token of his Faith was given. The Circumcision of Moses, that is inwardly, not outwardly.

Phil. 3: 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 "For we are the circumcision", which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

And again:

Col. 2: 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 "In whom also ye are circumcised" with the circumcision "made without hands", in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Jesus tried to warn you about the Religion of the Pharisees, that the Apostles kept the Gentiles away from, but you mock His Words as "my Generic take". And you promote that the Pharisees were teaching God's Laws, like you mocked me when you imply that in order to be obedient to God, I must fly to Jerusalem and keep the Feasts, and that the Apostles were promoting the rejection of God's Laws.

But that isn't what happened in Act's 15. That may be what your adopted religion preaches. But when Moses is read, as Jesus Commands the multitudes and His Disciples, it becomes clear that Jesus was right again, and the Pharisees were not teaching God's Laws at all.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

And when they study Moses in belief/Faith, they will find as I did, that God doesn't require men to cut the loose skin of his penis, before HE saves them, as the Scriptures I posted clearly show. And the teaching that HE does, can only be supported by selecting a couple of verses from the Bible, separating them from Every Other Word of God, then creating a religion based on them, which is the oldest deception shown to us in the Bible, as the preacher in the garden with Eve, who also professed to know God, used the same tactic.

So then the Apostles did not turn the Gentiles away from the Circumcision of Moses, they turned the Gentiles towards God's circumcision, and away from the traditions and commandments of men the Pharisees taught for doctrines.
 
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tall73

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What you claimed I disagreed with


SabbathBlessing said to you Sabbath Keeping and The Gospel


My response:

I don't recall saying there are two Sabbaths in Heb4, so perhaps you are not understanding the premise of my argument. Its about two different rests. The Sabbath-rest is always on the seventh day Exo20:10 Heb4:4 Exo 20:1, Exo20:11 Luke23:56 the spiritual rest in Christ we enter by faith. Heb4:2


Than you quoted a non-Adventist to claim I disagreed with EGW and SDA commentary trying to cause division when there was none.

Incorrect. The quote below, which I referenced, is directly from the SDA Bible Commentary on Hebrews 4. I just checked my physical copy again. Still there.


The writer of Hebrews appears to use katapausis and sabbatismos more or less synonymously. Because Joshua could not lead Israel into spiritual "rest" (katapausis, v. 8), a sabbatismos (v. 9) remains for Christians. Consistency seems to require that what remains be the same as what was there to begin with. Because Joshua did not lead literal Israel into spiritual "rest" would be no reason for the Christian to observe the Sabbath.​

You do disagree with them.
 

SabbathBlessings

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Incorrect. The quote below, which I referenced, is directly from the SDA Bible Commentary on Hebrews 4. I just checked my physical copy again. Still there.


The writer of Hebrews appears to use katapausis and sabbatismos more or less synonymously. Because Joshua could not lead Israel into spiritual "rest" (katapausis, v. 8), a sabbatismos (v. 9) remains for Christians. Consistency seems to require that what remains be the same as what was there to begin with. Because Joshua did not lead literal Israel into spiritual "rest" would be no reason for the Christian to observe the Sabbath.​

You do disagree with them.

Like I said I do not necessary agree with all SDA commentary as I do not believe all SDA's who claim to be really are, Jesus had a Judas and the devil will always try to create division from the inside. This can be said for all denominations. No one is going to agree with every commentary ever written inside their own faith. I posted the official statement of the SDA church on the Sabbath which references Heb4:1-11 and I agree with.

I would have to look more at the context of what they really stated instead of the snippet you posted, we could easily say Paul contradicted himself Gal2:16 Rom2:13 so should we therefore stop being Christians and believe in his teachings or is there a way to reconcile them.

Just because they quote EGW does not necessarily means EGW agrees with them, so the statement I disagree with EGW is deceptive at best, as you said "you do disagree with them" to include her and that is a false statement. My guess this commentary you referenced if they are a true SDA are not making the argument we enter into Christ rest through faith, by being in rebellion to the 4th commandment or any other commandment of God, because that is not rest, but unrest, the main point of this passage as that is not faith.

Its also deceptive to say I disagreed that we do not enter His rest by faith when its the exact opposite of what I said. This whole trying to find one thing, just so you can try to pit against what someone believes is really a doctrine I want no part of. Its doesn't seem like its coming from a good place in my view.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Just to let you know why I wrote of Justin Martyr his name was brought up to be used as proof in a conversation that Christians worshiped on a Sunday, and he called it the 8th day (which was odd). And Myself trying to point out the Lord's Day from the beginning has always been the Seventh-Day Sabbath which he initiated, which was changed by the gentile Christians of Rome in the second century referring to Sunday.
Actually it was Ignatius of Antioch who was the first to mention Christians gathering on Sunday in his epistle to the Magnesians in 107 AD. Ignatius was born in 35 AD so he lived most of his life during the apostolic era and wrote about the early church that he himself was a part of. Now I don’t know when he became a Christian but in 105AD I can say that he was a bishop in the church at that time so it’s likely that by that time he had been a member of the church for some time by then.
 
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BNR32FAN

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People use him like Scripture as if he has more authority than God. It actually plays out to what was predicted in the Scriptures would happen and such a clear history of exactly what was predicted Dan7:25 which I agree was changed by Rome, they even openly admit to it that the change in the Sabbath is a mark of their authority over the word of God (what God says). I love how the Bible predicts something and than it comes true, but sadly, many people still hold on to their traditions.
No you’re just exaggerating, people use his writings as evidence of what the early church practiced in order to dispel the false notion that Constantine changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday since he and several others specifically stated that Christians were gathering on Sunday almost 200 years before Constantine was born.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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This a question for both @SabbathBlessings and @tall73. What rest that God said "they shall "never" enter my Rest... Heb 4:5

Thank you
He is speaking of a group of people who have a harden heart by unbelief, disobedience rebellion and sin. Heb4:6, Heb4:11 Heb3:7-19 Psa 95:7-13
 
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pasifika

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He is speaking of a group of people who have a harden heart by unbelief, disobedience rebellion and sin. Heb4:6, Heb4:11 Heb3:7-19 Psa 95:7-13
What Rest?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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No you’re just exaggerating, people use his writings as evidence of what the early church practiced in order to dispel the false notion that Constantine changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday since he and several others specifically stated that Christians were gathering on Sunday almost 200 years before Constantine was born.
Sure, not in Scripture why everyone has to use people outside of Scripture to make their case. Something the Bible Itself warns about Isa8:20

Paul taught this

Col 2:8 Beware lest anyone [a]cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

Its a lot of thus saith the Lord's on the Sabbath one would have to reject to come to the conclusion His will is anything but keeping the Sabbath day holy. God both spoke and wrote His will down plainly Exo31:18 Exo32:16 Exo20:8-11 Exo20:6 John14:15 Rev14:12 Rev22:14, like everyone in Scripture we can choose- to do what is according to Christ or do something else.

I am in favor of joining ourselves to the Lord!


Isa 56:1 Thus says the Lord:
Isa 56:6 “Also the sons of the foreigner (Gentiles)
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—

I know the God of heaven only has our best interest at heart.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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What Rest?
His rest, the rest we enter by faith. Heb4:2 that an entire generation missed out on because of their unbelief, disobedience and rebellion Heb 4:6 Eze20:13 Eze20:15-16 why we are told not to follow in that same example of disobedience Heb4:11 if we hear His voice and not harden our heart Heb3:7-19.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Sure, not in Scripture why everyone has to use people outside of Scripture to make their case. Something the Bible Itself warns about Isa8:20
Well that’s just a flat out lie and you know it because you know full well that everyone in this thread has been quoting scripture as well as providing evidence from the early church writings that supports our side of the argument.
 
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tall73

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Like I said I do not necessary agree with all SDA commentary as I do not believe all SDA's who claim to be really are, Jesus had a Judas and the devil will always try to create division from the inside. This can be said for all denominations. No one is going to agree with every commentary ever written inside their own faith. I posted the official statement of the SDA church on the Sabbath which references Heb4:1-11 and I agree with.
And as I said you don't have to agree. I was posting it for evidence regarding the usage. If you are using an argument that hinges on the term, then you need to deal with arguments regarding usage.

I would have to look more at the context of what they really stated instead of the snippet you posted, we could easily say Paul contradicted himself Gal2:16 Rom2:13 so should we therefore stop being Christians and believe in his teachings or is there a way to reconcile them.

Just because they quote EGW does not necessarily means EGW agrees with them, so the statement I disagree with EGW is deceptive at best, as you said "you do disagree with them" to include her and that is a false statement.

I posted it in connection with the statements of the Commentators.



My guess this commentary you referenced if they are a true SDA are not making the argument we enter into Christ rest through faith, by being in rebellion to the 4th commandment or any other commandment of God, because that is not rest, but unrest, the main point of this passage as that is not faith.

I already said I do not think the Sabbath was done away with.

I said when I first posted the SDA Commentary that obviously neither the commentators nor Ellen White think that.


Its also deceptive to say I disagreed that we do not enter His rest by faith when its the exact opposite of what I said.

I didn't say that either. I said you disagree with them in that they see one rest not two in the passage.


This whole trying to find one thing, just so you can try to pit against what someone believes is really a doctrine I want no part of. Its doesn't seem like its coming from a good place in my view.

Those reading along can see what I said.

Now address the evidence regarding the usage, or don't. But if you don't, then we have no reason to accept your argument based on the term.

The rest of these posts I will have to get to later.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Paul taught this

Col 2:8 Beware lest anyone [a]cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
Who’s actually practicing deceit here implying that I haven’t made my case with scripture? Truthuprootsevil even told you himself that he brought up the subject of Justin Martyr, all I did was quote what Justin Martyr wrote because Truthuprootsevil was claiming that someone had changed the phrase “the LORD’s day” to Sunday so I quoted Justin Martyr specifically saying that the church worshipped on Sunday which was the first day of creation and the day Jesus was resurrected. I already explained all of this to you and you’re still falsely accusing me. So I’ll ask again, who is being deceitful here?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Who’s actually practicing deceit here implying that I haven’t made my case with scripture? Truthuprootsevil even told you himself that he brought up the subject of Justin Martyr, all I did was quote what Justin Martyr wrote because Truthuprootsevil was claiming that someone had changed the phrase “the LORD’s day” to Sunday so I quoted Justin Martyr specifically saying that the church worshipped on Sunday which was the first day of creation and the day Jesus was resurrected. I already explained all of this to you and you’re still falsely accusing me. So I’ll ask again, who is being deceitful here?
I was showing the standard Paul used, which is according to Christ. Col2:8

This is according to Christ- these are words spoken by Christ Himself, you can't get any higher standard, this is the standard Paul used, because God's words have power Psa 33:6-9

Exo20:9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
The seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD Exo20:10
The Sabbath...My holy day, the holy day of the LORD Isa 58:13
Therefore the Son of Man is also LORD of the Sabbath Mark2:28


When our Lord and Savior can't speak for Himself and man needs to "help" Him sadly, we have lost the plot.

You will not find one verse in all of Scripture that says the Lords Day is day 1. If you want to talk about deception, it can't be greater than taking the words our Lord spoke taking something He made holy and turning it into a common day and taking a common day and trying to make it holy as if man can. Jesus resting on the Sabbath day and rising back to His Fathers work on the first day and not one word of changing the holy day of the Lord, is saying man knows more than God, our Creator Exo31:18 Rev14:7 and needs to correct Him instead of correcting ourselves.

Eze 22:26 Her priests have violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.

You are free to call me names if that makes you feel better, it doesn't change what is according to Christ.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I was showing the standard Paul used, which is according to Christ. Col2:8

This is according to Christ- these are words spoken by Christ Himself, you can't get any higher standard, this is the standard Paul used, because God's words have power Psa 33:6-9

Exo20:9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
The seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD Exo20:10
The Sabbath...My holy day, the holy day of the LORD Isa 58:13
Therefore the Son of Man is also LORD of the Sabbath Mark2:28


When our Lord and Savior can't speak for Himself and man needs to "help" Him sadly, we have lost the plot.

You will not find one verse in all of Scripture that says the Lords Day is day 1. If you want to talk about deception, it can't be greater than taking the words our Lord spoke taking something He made holy and turning it into a common day and taking a common day and trying to make it holy as if man can. Jesus resting on the Sabbath day and rising back to His Fathers work on the first day and not one word of changing the holy day of the Lord, is saying man knows more than God, our Creator Exo31:18 Rev14:7 and needs to correct Him instead of correcting ourselves.

Eze 22:26 Her priests have violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.

You are free to call me names if that makes you feel better, it doesn't change what is according to Christ.
Apparently those early church writers disagreed with your interpretation of Colossians 2:16.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Apparently those early church writers disagreed with your interpretation of Colossians 2:16.
That’s Paul- Paul’s standard is Christ. Paul can’t take away God’s holy day or God”s sanctification or God’s blessing, nor would he hence 2Peter3:16. Can you make your case with a thus saith the Lord. That’s Paul’s standard, what is according to Christ. God spoke plainly on this matter, He even wrote it and called it His Testimony. Exo 31:18 and asked no one to add to His words Pro30:6 That is according to Christ.

Probably no point in continuing unless you can provide one verse where God reversed the holy day of the Lord, His blessing for man and sanctification in His words since it’s the day that belongs to Him. Isa58:13 Exo20:10 Mar2:28

Guess we shall see.
 
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tall73

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To be honest, it isn't "my generic take" as I have tried to show you. It is Jesus' Take and it is the foundation of this discussion.

I have no issue with Jesus' take on the Pharisees.

What I referred to is your use of the Pharisee narrative to change the actual judgment of the council.

The Pharisee position was refuted. The actual message given to the Gentiles is what the council decided. And that is what you object to.


I will try one more time to reason with you in Scriptures, with Scriptures. Though I fear your religion doesn't allow you to hear much of God's Word.

Nevertheless;

Abram "was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran. Gen. 15:6 And he (Abram) believed in the LORD; and he (God) "counted it to him for righteousness". Gen. 17:24, " And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin." So Abram and Lot followed God for 24 years being uncircumcised. And God counted his believe as righteousness, While he was not circumcised.

These Words, written down by Moses, existed in the Law and Prophets that the Pharisees and Corrupt Priests read every Sabbath Day. For Centuries the religious leadership of the Jews, knew of these Truths about God concerning Circumcision. But they rejected them, and created a religion that taught for doctrines the Commandments of men, a religion that taught men, " had to be circumcised to be saved".

Joshua 3: 14 And it came to pass, when the people removed from their tents, to pass over Jordan, and the priests bearing the ark of the covenant before the people; 15 And as they that bare the ark were come unto Jordan, and the feet of the priests that bare the ark were dipped in the brim of the water, (for Jordan overfloweth all his banks all the time of harvest,) 16 "That the waters which came down from above stood and rose up upon an heap" very far from the city Adam, that is beside Zaretan: and those that came down toward the sea of the plain, even the salt sea, failed, and were cut off: and the people passed over right against Jericho. 17 And the priests that bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD stood firm on dry ground in the midst of Jordan, "and all the Israelites passed over on dry ground", "until all the people were passed clean over Jordan."

God brought these men across the Jordan, into the Promised And, on Dry Ground, "While Uncircumcised". The Pharisees and Scribes knew of these Words of Moses for centuries, but like so many, they had adopted a religion that omits the weightier matters of God's Law, and created their own religion, after the imagination of their own hearts. A religion that required that a man "had to be circumcised to be saved".

Joshua 5: 3 And Joshua made him sharp knives, and circumcised the children of Israel at the hill of the foreskins. 4 And this is the cause why Joshua did circumcise: All the people that came out of Egypt, that were males, even all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt. 5 Now all the people that came out were circumcised:

They were all Circumcised, YET, they all died in the Wilderness. So clearly the teaching of the Jews, " they had to be circumcised to be saved", is another falsehood, proven wrong by Moses himself.

but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.

And yet God brought them through the waters of Jordan, into the Promised Land, "While Uncircumcised". So again, these Words existed in their Scriptures and were read every Sabbath Day, but the Pharisees didn't promote them, and created for doctrines the Commandments of men, the Tradition of the Pharisees, that men "had to be circumcised to be saved". And once again their philosophy is proven wrong by Moses Himself.

Naaman, a Syrian, "Uncircumcised" was Saved by God, of his Leprosy. Elijah raised from the dead, an uncircumcised boy, Jesus even mentions this in His Testimony. Proving once again, that the Pharisees Law, that a man "had to be circumcised to be saved" was from man and not from God.

I point these things out to you to show you that according to the Law and Prophets it was NEVER God's Law that a man "had to be physically circumcised to be saved". And only by selecting a cherry picked scripture, then separating it from the rest of the Bible, and then creating an entire philosophy based on the words of the selected verse, could this doctrine be supported. Which is what we have been trained to do by this world's religions that exist in the world God placed us in.

I said the position of the Pharisees was rejected. Salvation by works was rejected, BOTH for the Gentiles and the Jews. Though the Jews kept on observing the Law, as we see in Paul's haste to get back for Pentecost, his participation in temple sacrifices (yes, voluntary ones related to the Nazarite vow).

But you are using the agreed upon by all to be wrong position of the Pharisees to change the actual judgment of the council.

They decided that they didn't have to be circucmised and keep the law of Moses. And they gave a set number of things they did have to do. You seem to have an issue with their decision, not just the Pharisees contentions.

Paul tries to teach you this, just as he taught the Jews and Gentiles of his time, but men don't believe him. He didn't teach against the Circumcision of God, as you promote, but he taught the Circumcision Abram had, before the Token of his Faith was given. The Circumcision of Moses, that is inwardly, not outwardly.

Phil. 3: 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 "For we are the circumcision", which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

And again:

Col. 2: 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 "In whom also ye are circumcised" with the circumcision "made without hands", in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

I am already on record in this thread speaking of the circumcision made without hands in connection with the uncircumcised in the flesh Colossians, and how they were complete in Christ.

Of course, this is in line with the council's decision too. They didn't have to be physically circumcised.

That was part of the things that were rejected at the council.


Jesus tried to warn you about the Religion of the Pharisees, that the Apostles kept the Gentiles away from, but you mock His Words as "my Generic take".

No, I have no issue with Jesus' statements regarding the Pharisees.

I refer to your generic take on the pharisees that you then use to dismiss the council's actual decision--endorsed by the Apostles, elders, and the Holy Spirit.

The Pharisee contingent was voted down. But the council actually made a ruling that you are coming out against.


And you promote that the Pharisees were teaching God's Laws
I said Jesus indicated they did not keep them.

I also noted that the Pharisee contingent was voted down at the council, and you reject the actual decision of the council.

, like you mocked me when you imply that in order to be obedient to God, I must fly to Jerusalem and keep the Feasts, and that the Apostles were promoting the rejection of God's Laws.

No, I did not mock you. I asked you, because I was trying to understand your position. If you would clarify your position of exactly what Gentiles are supposed to do, it would help. Every time I ask you seem to dodge the question other than to say they don't have to be circumcised (which the council agreed with), but then you won't specify what they should do. And you don't care for the "one sentence" as you call it which was part of the council's decision.

Now if you are saying it is the interpretation of the sentence, I tried to get out of you several time what exactly you think they meant, but you seem reluctant to spell it out. When you did spell it out it sounded like you were advocating for the Gentiles keeping the whole law. So I asked if that included you going to Jerusalem, which was part of the law.

Now you take objection to that. Ok, then spell out your actual view.

But if it bears no resemblance to the actual judgment of the council, I won't be that impressed by discussion of the Pharisees--who were voted down.

But that isn't what happened in Act's 15. That may be what your adopted religion preaches. But when Moses is read, as Jesus Commands the multitudes and His Disciples, it becomes clear that Jesus was right again, and the Pharisees were not teaching God's Laws at all.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

We already agreed Gentiles would often be in the synagogue hearing the Scriptures. And I referenced that some see these requirements as initial means to make fellowship in the synagogue easier.

But you passed over that and went back to talking about the Pharisees.

And when they study Moses in belief/Faith, they will find as I did, that God doesn't require men to cut the loose skin of his penis, before HE saves them, as the Scriptures I posted clearly show. And the teaching that HE does, can only be supported by selecting a couple of verses from the Bible, separating them from Every Other Word of God, then creating a religion based on them, which is the oldest deception shown to us in the Bible, as the preacher in the garden with Eve, who also professed to know God, used the same tactic.

Yeah, and back to this again.

I already said the Pharisee position was rejected, and salvation is not of the law.

But the actual decision of the council was still what it was.

So then the Apostles did not turn the Gentiles away from the Circumcision of Moses, they turned the Gentiles towards God's circumcision, and away from the traditions and commandments of men the Pharisees taught for doctrines.
And they said they don't have to be circumcised and keep the whole law of Moses, but only a list of things. You don't like that part, but that was the actual decision, that went to the Gentiles.

So you are right. I probably won't be convinced by you. For one you won't spell out what you think the Gentiles actually should do. And you seem keen on arguing about Pharisees who were voted down anyway, but then using that to say the decision of the councile didn't mean what it said.

Why would I let the Pharisee's wrong position change the correct decision of the council that was endorsed by the Holy Spirit?

That is what you haven't explained.


And you haven't explained how years later in Acts 21 they are saying of Paul that they know keeps the law, but they have not required that of the Gentiles--citing the same decision of the council.

24b you walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.” (NKJV)​

Acts 15:24-29​
24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. (NKJV)​
 
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This a question for both @SabbathBlessings and @tall73. What rest that God said "they shall "never" enter my Rest... Heb 4:5

Thank you
The section where we see the argument about rest begins back in chapter 3. As in all of the book he is discussing the superiority of Christ, who is a better High Priest, better Sacrifice, has a better Covenant, is superior to angels, superior to Moses, etc. It is that last point that he develops in the beginning of chapter 3.

Hebrews 3:1-6​
1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. (NKJV)​

Jesus is over the whole household. He created all and He rules all. Moses is a servant in the house who was faithful. Christ is the Son over the household. And if we hold fast the confidence and rejoicing of the hope in Him, we are a part of God's household.

He then makes an extended appeal to respond to Christ and hold fast to Him. We see in the larger context that the people being written to had stood for Christ in the past, even if it cost their possessions, etc. but had not gone on to maturity.

He quotes from Psalm 95, which he is going to use to build his appeal. So we can take a look at what the psalm says.

Psalms 95:1-7​
1 Oh come, let us sing to the LORD!​
Let us shout joyfully to the Rock of our salvation.​
2 Let us come before His presence with thanksgiving;​
Let us shout joyfully to Him with psalms.​
3 For the LORD is the great God,​
And the great King above all gods.​
4 In His hand are the deep places of the earth;​
The heights of the hills are His also.​
5 The sea is His, for He made it;​
And His hands formed the dry land.​
6 Oh come, let us worship and bow down;​
Let us kneel before the LORD our Maker.​
7a For He is our God,​
And we are the people of His pasture,​
And the sheep of His hand. (NKJV)​

The first part of the Psalm acknowledges God as ruler, Creator, and the Shepherd who cares for His sheep. Then in the middle of verse 7 it makes an appeal to not harden your heart, which is a message his listeners needed to hear.

Psalms 95:7b-11​
7bToday, if you will hear His voice:​
8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion,​
As in the day of trial in the wilderness,​
9 When your fathers tested Me;​
They tried Me, though they saw My work.​
10 For forty years I was grieved with that generation,​
And said, ‘It is a people who go astray in their hearts,​
And they do not know My ways.’​
11 So I swore in My wrath,​
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ” (NKJV)​

He recalls the experience in the wilderness when the Children of Israel were freed from slavery in Egypt. God brought them through the wilderness to the land prepared for them. However, they frequently doubted, grumbled, turned away from Him, turned to idolatry, etc.

The Psalmist is saying "Today", don't be like those who rebelled back then. Rather respond with sincere hearts, in faith. In context for the audience of Hebrews this seems to indicate holding fast to Christ, despite persecution, not falling back.

He swore they would not enter His rest. In the book of Numbers we read that God told Moses to send spies into the land that He promised to give them, to see what the land was like. Then they gave a report:

Numbers 13:1-2​
1 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Send men to spy out the land of Canaan, which I am giving to the children of Israel; from each tribe of their fathers you shall send a man, every one a leader among them.” (NKJV)​

Numbers 13:25-31​
25 And they returned from spying out the land after forty days.​
26 Now they departed and came back to Moses and Aaron and all the congregation of the children of Israel in the Wilderness of Paran, at Kadesh; they brought back word to them and to all the congregation, and showed them the fruit of the land. 27 Then they told him, and said: “We went to the land where you sent us. It truly flows with milk and honey, and this is its fruit. 28 Nevertheless the people who dwell in the land are strong; the cities are fortified and very large; moreover we saw the descendants of Anak there. 29 The Amalekites dwell in the land of the South; the Hittites, the Jebusites, and the Amorites dwell in the mountains; and the Canaanites dwell by the sea and along the banks of the Jordan.”​
30 Then Caleb quieted the people before Moses, and said, “Let us go up at once and take possession, for we are well able to overcome it.”​
31 But the men who had gone up with him said, “We are not able to go up against the people, for they are stronger than we.” (NKJV)​

The Israelites doubted, even though they had seen God deliver them miraculously from the Egyptians. But Caleb, one of the spies, called them to be faithful, and trust the Lord. The people refused.

Numbers 14:1-10​
1 So all the congregation lifted up their voices and cried, and the people wept that night. 2 And all the children of Israel complained against Moses and Aaron, and the whole congregation said to them, “If only we had died in the land of Egypt! Or if only we had died in this wilderness! 3 Why has the LORD brought us to this land to fall by the sword, that our wives and children should become victims? Would it not be better for us to return to Egypt?” 4 So they said to one another, “Let us select a leader and return to Egypt.”​
5 Then Moses and Aaron fell on their faces before all the assembly of the congregation of the children of Israel.​
6 But Joshua the son of Nun and Caleb the son of Jephunneh, who were among those who had spied out the land, tore their clothes; 7 and they spoke to all the congregation of the children of Israel, saying: “The land we passed through to spy out is an exceedingly good land. 8 If the LORD delights in us, then He will bring us into this land and give it to us, a land which flows with milk and honey.’ 9 Only do not rebel against the LORD, nor fear the people of the land, for they are our bread; their protection has departed from them, and the LORD is with us. Do not fear them.”​
10 And all the congregation said to stone them with stones. Now the glory of the LORD appeared in the tabernacle of meeting before all the children of Israel. (NKJV)​

Joshua and Caleb tried to appeal to them to not rebel, that the Lord was able to do all He promised. But they would not listen.

After their repeated rebellion God declared judgment upon that generation.

Numbers 14:20-25​
20 Then the LORD said: “I have pardoned, according to your word; 21 but truly, as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD— 22 because all these men who have seen My glory and the signs which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have put Me to the test now these ten times, and have not heeded My voice, 23 they certainly shall not see the land of which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who rejected Me see it. 24 But My servant Caleb, because he has a different spirit in him and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land where he went, and his descendants shall inherit it. 25 Now the Amalekites and the Canaanites dwell in the valley; tomorrow turn and move out into the wilderness by the Way of the Red Sea.” (NKJV)​

The entire generation, 20 years or older, who came out of Egypt, and saw the wonders there, who continually rebelled, died in the wilderness over the 40 year span. Only Joshua and Caleb went in to see the land. The people who rebelled did not enter the rest of the promised land, because of doubt and unbelief.

It is with this background in mind that in Hebrews 3:7 the author begins an appeal to those Christians who are in danger of doubting and losing heart:

Hebrews 3:7-15​
7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:​
“Today, if you will hear His voice,​
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,​
In the day of trial in the wilderness,​
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,​
And saw My works forty years.​
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,​
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,​
And they have not known My ways.’​
11 So I swore in My wrath,​
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”​
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end​

He is saying that God has a rest for the recipients of the letter to the Hebrews, if they are faithful and do not turn away. They are to exhort, encourage, each other daily, while it is called "today" so that they do not harden their heart as they did in the wilderness, and fail to receive the rest God has for them. He indicates we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the same confidence to the end.

Hebrews 3:15-19​
15 while it is said:​
“Today, if you will hear His voice,​
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”​
16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. (NKJV)​

Here he summarizes the history of how all those 20 and older who went out, started the journey, but failed to finish, because of rebellion. And the cause of their rebellion was unbelief. They did not hold fast their confidence they started with. They did not believe, and that lack of belief translated to their rebellious actions. Their lack of faith meant they could not enter God's rest. Literally this was the promised land. Beyond that though, without faith they do not have that participation in the houshold of God referenced back in the beginning of chapter 3.

Chapter four continues the argument:

Hebrews 4:1​
1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. (NKJV)​

Here he takes the wording of Psalm 95, "today if you hear His voice, do not harden your heart" to indicate there is an ongoing rest that the readers of the epistle can still enter. "Today" God is still calling us to enter His rest, to not harden our hearts through doubt, but to have faith.

Hebrews 4:2-3a​
2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:​
“So I swore in My wrath,​
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ” (NKJV)​

The wilderness generation did not put faith in God's word. He says the gospel was preached to them, because they had an opportunity to rest totally in Him for salvation, not just physical rest, but ultimate rest. Even though that generation failed, there is still that remaining to be entered into in the time of Psalm 95. And there is still that rest in the time of the the author of Hebrews.

He says we who have believed DO enter that rest. The rest is faith in God, trusting to the end, in context, standing for Christ despite resistance for the recipients of the letter. And in doing they will be a part of God's household, entering into true lasting rest for eternity. The wildeness generation failed due to lack of faith. But the author of Hebrews says "we who have believed do enter that rest".

Then in the middle of that verse 3 he begins referring to Genesis 2.

Hebrews 4:3b-5​
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.” (NKJV)​

The author points out that God ceased His creative work on the seventh day. God is resting from His creative work, and invites us to that ONGOING rest. He has been resting ever since from His works. But the context already made it plain what that is, and continues to. It is not the weekly Sabbath. The weekly sabbath is a once a week reminder of God's rest after creation. Here they are being invited to enter that ongoing rest of God.

Hebrews 4:6-10​
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:​
“Today, if you will hear His voice,​
Do not harden your hearts.”​
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. (NKJV)​

He is still referring to those who did not enter in back in the wilderness. They did not enter in because of lack of faith, resulting in disobedience. But the possibility of entering the rest still remained in the time of David.

Joshua did not give them rest. Now he did lead them into the promised land, but something more is involved that goes beyond the physical promised land. There is still the spiritual rest of trusting in God and resting from your works. Under Joshua they went into the promised land, but then when Joshua died they again doubted and never totally trusted in God, did not remove the inhabitants of the land, etc. but continued to rebel.

The "Today" rest continues on, even though the generation with Joshua was now in the past. God speaks of another day after Joshua. It is the "Today" already mentioned throughout, that was stated in the time of the Psalmist. Today, when you hear His voice, do not harden your heart.

Hebrews 4:9-10​
9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. (NKJV)​

The whole context leading up to this makes clear what this rest is. We enter into the "today" rest with God through faith. We do not harden our hearts through lack of faith like those in the wilderness. We start the journey with God, and trust Him to the end. We enter into His rest, become a part of His household.

Now it says there "remains" a sabbath rest for the people of God. In a book about fulfillments of the Old Testament types the author explains a Sabbath rest that remains.

The context makes plain this is not the observance of the Sabbath day. Because even the people in the wilderness started doing that after a few false starts. But they did not enter the rest spoken of. Rather, verse 10 tells us the rest:

Hebrews 4:10-11​
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. (NKJV)​

We rest in faith. We don't worry about the giants in the promised land, and fall back. We continue the journey. We rest from our works, as God rested from His. We trust in Him. In context, they endure for Christ, despite persecution, through faith.

The purpose of the Sabbath was a sign with Israel. It recalled their Creator, as the command states. It recalled their redemption from Egypt as Deuteronomy 5 states. And it was a sign that God is the one who sanctifies them, per Exodus 31.

But in Hebrews the rest that remains is to enter, TODAY, that you not harden your heart, and that you continue to hold on to faith. That you not turn away as those in the wilderness did, but rest from your own works to trust in the One who started you on the journey. And in the end you enter true Spiritual rest with Him, in His household.

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This a question for both @SabbathBlessings and @tall73. What rest that God said "they shall "never" enter my Rest... Heb 4:5

Thank you

As to the phrase,

Psa 95:11 Therefore I swore in my wrath, “They shall not enter my rest.”​

as I think was discussed in a thread you were involved in some years ago, is actually in the form of an oath formula.

The same is used in Hebrews 3:11, quoting Psalm 95, where the context is clearly a reference to God's oath that they would not enter in:

Heb 3:11 ὡς ὤμοσα ἐν τῇ ὀργῇ μου, εἰ εἰσελεύσονται εἰς τὴν κατάπαυσίν μου.

Heb 3:10 Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart; they have not known my ways.’
Heb 3:11 As I swore in my wrath, ‘if they shall enter my rest.’”

This is in reference to the generation in the wilderness:

Num 14:28 Say to them, ‘As I live, declares the LORD, what you have said in my hearing I will do to you:​
Num 14:29 your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness, and of all your number, listed in the census from twenty years old and upward, who have grumbled against me,​
Num 14:30 not one shall come into the land where I swore that I would make you dwell, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun.​

Deu 1:34 “And the LORD heard your words and was angered, and he swore,​
Deu 1:35 ‘Not one of these men of this evil generation shall see the good land that I swore to give to your fathers,​

Deu 1:35 Εἰ ὄψεταί τις τῶν ἀνδρῶν τούτων τὴν ἀγαθὴν ταύτην γῆν, ἣν ὤμοσα τοῖς πατράσιν αὐτῶν,​

He appears to be using an oath formula or idiom that was employed in several places in translating the LXX as listed below, and also occurs in the Greek of Mark 8:12.

Vincent's word studies;​
Lit. if they shall enter, etc. A common Hebraistic formula in oaths. Where God is speaking, as here, the ellipsis is “may I not be Jehovah if they shall enter.” Where man is speaking, “so may God punish me if”; or “God do so to me and more if.” Comp. Mar_8:12 : lxx, Gen_14:23; Deu_1:35; 1Ki_1:51; 1Ki_2:8. Sometimes the ellipsis is filled out, as 1Sa_3:17; 2Sa_3:35.​

An example of the filled out idiom when used by a person:

2Sa 3:35 Then all the people came to persuade David to eat bread while it was yet day. But David swore, saying, “God do so to me and more also, if I taste bread or anything else till the sun goes down!”​


In Hebrews it is a quote of Psalm 95, which is Psalm 94 in the LXX

Psa 95:11 Therefore I swore in my wrath, “if they shall enter into my rest.”​
Psa 94:11 ὡς ὤμοσα ἐν τῇ ὀργῇ μου Εἰ εἰσελεύσονται εἰς τὴν κατάπαυσίν μου.​

So in short, it is an oath formula indicating they will not enter.

You could render it: "if they enter into my rest I am not the LORD. "
 
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