Do we need to use the Law in our evangelism?

Christ fulfilled the law. When he had died He had the fulfilled the whole law and the law of love too.

Jesus was predicted to do two things to the law in Scripture

Heb 9:27 Then he shall confirm a [k]covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

Isa 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

So obviously there are two different laws with two opposing directions for them. One He came to end- the sacrifices and offerings which He did Col2:14KJV Heb10:1-15 and the other He came to magnify which He did with the Ten Commandments- related our thoughts of anger to the commandment thou shalt not murder and related thoughts of lust with adultery and taught plainly not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments but commissioned us to keep and teach others to keep them. Mat5:19-30

Without the law there is no need for grace or mercy so we can’t really separate God’s law from God’s grace. Rom 6:1-4 It’s still a sin to murder and commit adultery and break the least of these commandments according to Jesus He said in doing so one would be in fear of sin and judgement Mat5:19-30 James 2:11-12.

While no one is saved by keeping God’s commandments, its an outward expression that God has changed us from the inside out and its a fruit of our salvation, not a means to it.

The NT is filled with reminders to keep the commandments of God by love.

John14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Sin or breaking the law of God is what separated man from God Isa 59:2 so doing the same rebellion and sin Heb3:7-19 is not the answer to reconciliation Heb10:26-30 Rev22:14 but we should want to do what is pleasing and right in God’s eyes because we love Him. 1John3:7 I think we need to get out of the mindset of is the least I need to do to be saved and think more in the lines how can I join myself to the Lord and be His servant Isa 56:6

hopeforhappiness said:

Tuesday at 9:37 AM
#1
I have an acquaintance who insists on this and in my opinion has made this a harsh and judgemental approach and he uses it often in his dealings with church members.
Now, clearly there is a discussion about how to use the Law. If it is about behaviour then yes, it can serve a purpose in that those self-righteous in their behaviour can be made to see how that separates from God. But the Law (summarised especially in the first two) is also to do with attitudes and desires. These also separate from God and are very relevant in pre-evangelism.
BUT....Jesus IMO majored on the attitudes and this IMO leads evangelists to be more compassionate and empathetic in their work. (which is all our work, as well). Because I don't think Jesus used the Law in its behaviour dimension, especially in his dealings with those who would be more receptive. He saw inside them, to their hidden weakness (the woman in adultery, the rich young ruler), with Knowledge from His Father. He didn't go through the 10 commandments, getting the people to examine their failings in each category. He went straight to a One Issue that would convict. A lesson for us?
Because the central issue, and I argued this with with the guy I have mentioned, is the Original Sin of the Garden, in that mankind really doesn't like the idea of God in our lives and wants to go its own way in pride. It is this that has to be finally acknowledged, even after repentance for thoughts and deeds of greed and lust and anger, and it was this that Christ died on the cross for. To repair our estrangement from God. But then of course this is encapsulated in failing the first commandment.
One last question and which is relevant. Jesus talked of not one jot falling from the Law until "all is accomplished". How does that relate to Christ's final words - "It is finished"

Click to expand...

The law is not necessary for evangelizing or binding for the Christian. Just preach the gospel as Paul did in Acts 13. Preaching the law is too much like Bible thumping. Pay close attention to how Paul ended his speech. I highlighted it for you.

“After the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the synagogue officials sent word to them, saying, “Brothers, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it.” Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, “Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen: The God of this people Israel chose our fathers and made the people great during their stay in the land of Egypt, and with an uplifted arm He led them out from it. For a period of about forty years He put up with them in the wilderness. When He had destroyed seven nations in the land of Canaan, He distributed their land as an inheritance—all of which took about 450 years. After these things He gave them judges until Samuel the prophet. Then they asked for a king, and God gave them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for forty years. After He had removed him, He raised up David to be their king, concerning whom He also testified and said, ‘I have found David, the son of Jesse, a man after My heart, who will do all My will.’ From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, after John had proclaimed, before His coming, a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. And while John was completing his course, he kept saying, ‘What do you suppose that I am? I am not He. But behold, One is coming after me, the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to untie.’ “Brothers, sons of Abraham’s family, and those among you who fear God, to us the message of this salvation has been sent. For those who live in Jerusalem, and their rulers, recognizing neither Him nor the declarations of the prophets which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled these by condemning Him. And though they found no grounds for putting Him to death, they asked Pilate that He be executed. When they had carried out everything that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the cross and laid Him in a tomb. But God raised Him from the dead; and for many days He appeared to those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, the very ones who are now His witnesses to the people. And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers, that God has fulfilled this promise to those of us who are the descendants by raising Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My Son; today I have fathered You.’ As for the fact that He raised Him from the dead, never again to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: ‘I will give you the holy and faithful mercies of David.’ Therefore, He also says in another Psalm: ‘You will not allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.’ For David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, fell asleep, and was buried among his fathers and underwent decay; but He whom God raised did not undergo decay. Therefore let it be known to you, brothers, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭13‬:‭15‬-‭39‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

hopeforhappiness said:

One last question and which is relevant. Jesus talked of not one jot falling from the Law until "all is accomplished". How does that relate to Christ's final words - "It is finished"

Click to expand...

Lets look at these two passages

Regarding it is finished this is what I believe He was speaking about….

John 19:29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Mat 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

Jesus was predicted to do two things to the law and He fulfilled both

Dan9:27 Then he shall confirm a [k]covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

When Jesus died all the animal sacrifices, feast days and offerings were shadows of the law pointing to Him. Heb9:10-15 Heb10:1-15 These all took place in the earthy temple, at His death, the veil of the temple was torn to signify no more animal sacrifices, only His blood can really take away sins, these were the laws nailed to the cross, animal sacrifices and earthy temple services which always pointed to our High Priest Jesus what He would do in His heavenly temple not made with human hands Heb9:22-23 Heb8:1-5

The law not a jot or tittle can pass until two things happen- heaven and earth pass and all is fulfilled. Heaven and earth are still here and Jesus has not come in the clouds so not all are fulfilled, therefore not a jot or tittle can pass from God’s laws, why the next verse relates this to heaven not the Cross. God’s law the Ten Commandments is in heaven Exo25:21 Rev15:5 Rev11:19 where God is working on our behalf in is heavenly Temple.

Mat5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one [b]jot or one [c]tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them,he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

The Ten Commandments is the law not a jot or tittle can pass, the law He came to magnify Isa 42:21 written by the Holy Spirit Himself Exo31:18 this law was magnified by going from written on tablets of stone to written on tablets of the heart 2Cor3:3 Heb8:10. The will of God now part of our temple- our bodies 1Cor6:19, written in our mind to know do them, written in our hearts executed by love and the power He gives us to do so if one allows John14:15-18

hopeforhappiness said:

Tuesday at 9:37 AM
#1
I have an acquaintance who insists on this and in my opinion has made this a harsh and judgemental approach and he uses it often in his dealings with church members.
Now, clearly there is a discussion about how to use the Law. If it is about behaviour then yes, it can serve a purpose in that those self-righteous in their behaviour can be made to see how that separates from God. But the Law (summarised especially in the first two) is also to do with attitudes and desires. These also separate from God and are very relevant in pre-evangelism.
BUT....Jesus IMO majored on the attitudes and this IMO leads evangelists to be more compassionate and empathetic in their work. (which is all our work, as well). Because I don't think Jesus used the Law in its behaviour dimension, especially in his dealings with those who would be more receptive. He saw inside them, to their hidden weakness (the woman in adultery, the rich young ruler), with Knowledge from His Father. He didn't go through the 10 commandments, getting the people to examine their failings in each category. He went straight to a One Issue that would convict. A lesson for us?
Because the central issue, and I argued this with with the guy I have mentioned, is the Original Sin of the Garden, in that mankind really doesn't like the idea of God in our lives and wants to go its own way in pride. It is this that has to be finally acknowledged, even after repentance for thoughts and deeds of greed and lust and anger, and it was this that Christ died on the cross for. To repair our estrangement from God. But then of course this is encapsulated in failing the first commandment.

Click to expand...

The Hebrew word “yada” refers to intimate relationships/knowledge gained by experience, such as with Genesis 4:1 where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. God’s way is the way to know (yada) Him and Jesus by experiencing being in His likeness through embodying His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of His household to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to graciously teach us how to have an intimate relationship with God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is His gift of eternal life.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of God was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6). In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works. So the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and in what he finished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of God (Acts 21:20). So the Law of God can't be removed from evangelism, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't also be compassionate.

hopeforhappiness said:

One last question and which is relevant. Jesus talked of not one jot falling from the Law until "all is accomplished". How does that relate to Christ's final words - "It is finished"

Click to expand...

It doesn't. While Jesus certainly accomplished much through the cross, there is still everything in Revelation left to be accomplished. Jesus said that not the least part would disappear from the law until heaven and earth disappear and all is accomplished, neither or which has happened yet, both of which are referring to end times (Revelation 21) or are ways of saying that is never going to happen. God's character traits are eternal, so any instructions that He has ever given for how to know Him by embodying His character traits are eternally valid and the only way to abolish those instructions would be by first abolishing God's eternal character traits.

If someone retroactively inserts the cross back into Matthew 5:17-19 in spite of that chapter making no allusion to the cross, then they are interpreting it as if Christ had no intention for his audience to understand what he meant when he said that he came to fulfill the law. However, Christ did not invent the concept of fulfilling the law, so we should seek to understand what it meant in the context of Judaism before Christ said that he came to fulfill it, which would be in the way that his audience would have understood him. "To fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will (as made known by the law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo), so after Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law he then proceeded to fulfill it throughout the rest of the chapter by correcting what the people had heard being said and by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended. According to Galatians 5:14, loving out neighbor fulfills the entire law, so again in refers to correctly obeying it, moreover, it refers to something that countless people have done and should continue to do in perpetuity, not to something unique that only Jesus did through the cross.

Hentenza said:

The law is not necessary for evangelizing or binding for the Christian. Just preach the gospel as Paul did in Acts 13. Preaching the law is too much like Bible thumping. Pay close attention to how Paul ended his speech. I highlighted it for you.

Click to expand...

Acts 28:23 When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.

Why did Pau use the Law and the Prophets to evangelize if it is not necessary?

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of God was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience is a central part of spreading the Gospel.

Hentenza said:

“After the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the synagogue officials sent word to them, saying, “Brothers, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it.” Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, “Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen: The God of this people Israel chose our fathers and made the people great during their stay in the land of Egypt, and with an uplifted arm He led them out from it. For a period of about forty years He put up with them in the wilderness. When He had destroyed seven nations in the land of Canaan, He distributed their land as an inheritance—all of which took about 450 years. After these things He gave them judges until Samuel the prophet. Then they asked for a king, and God gave them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for forty years. After He had removed him, He raised up David to be their king, concerning whom He also testified and said, ‘I have found David, the son of Jesse, a man after My heart, who will do all My will.’ From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, after John had proclaimed, before His coming, a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. And while John was completing his course, he kept saying, ‘What do you suppose that I am? I am not He. But behold, One is coming after me, the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to untie.’ “Brothers, sons of Abraham’s family, and those among you who fear God, to us the message of this salvation has been sent. For those who live in Jerusalem, and their rulers, recognizing neither Him nor the declarations of the prophets which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled these by condemning Him. And though they found no grounds for putting Him to death, they asked Pilate that He be executed. When they had carried out everything that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the cross and laid Him in a tomb. But God raised Him from the dead; and for many days He appeared to those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, the very ones who are now His witnesses to the people. And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers, that God has fulfilled this promise to those of us who are the descendants by raising Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My Son; today I have fathered You.’ As for the fact that He raised Him from the dead, never again to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: ‘I will give you the holy and faithful mercies of David.’ Therefore, He also says in another Psalm: ‘You will not allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.’ For David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, fell asleep, and was buried among his fathers and underwent decay; but He whom God raised did not undergo decay. Therefore let it be known to you, brothers, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭13‬:‭15‬-‭39‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Acts 13:15-39 (NASB2020) - After the reading of the Law and th | YouVersion

After the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the synagogue officials sent word to them, saying, “Brothers, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it.” Paul stood up, and motioning w

bible.com

Click to expand...

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of Moses (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it and it doesn't work to promote Jesus as a Savior without speaking about what he is saving us from. If someone has no obligated to refrain from doing what the Law of Moses reveals to be sin, then they do not need forgiveness of sins and do not need a Savior from sin. The Law of Moses does not free us form sin, but rather it is faith in Christ that frees us from sin by teaching us to obey the Law of Moses.

Soyeong said:

Acts 28:23 When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.

Why did Pau use the Law and the Prophets to evangelize if it is not necessary?

Click to expand...

Paul was defending himself against the Jews who were accusing him and wanting the Romans to punish Paul.

“After three days Paul called together those who were the leading men of the Jews, and when they came together, he began saying to them, “Brothers, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was handed over to the Romans as a prisoner from Jerusalem. And when they had examined me, they were willing to release me because there were no grounds for putting me to death.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28‬:‭17‬-‭18‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

This is a continuation of Acts 21 where the Jews wanted to kill Paul for teaching that the Law of Moses and circumcision was not necessary. I don’t understand how you missed such a clear context.

Soyeong said:

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of God was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience is a central part of spreading the Gospel.

Click to expand...

First, Jesus ministry was to the Jews first and then to the gentiles. Second, Jesus kept ALL of the law perfectly which means that He followed the Mosaic law to completion.

Third, the law still reveals sin. By the letter of the law for the unbeliever and by the Holy Spirit for the believer. The law and the prophets hang on Jesus two love commandments.

Soyeong said:

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of Moses (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it and it doesn't work to promote Jesus as a Savior without speaking about what he is saving us from. If someone has no obligated to refrain from doing what the Law of Moses reveals to be sin, then they do not need forgiveness of sins and do not need a Savior from sin. The Law of Moses does not free us form sin, but rather it is faith in Christ that frees us from sin by teaching us to obey the Law of Moses.

Click to expand...

Well you did not answer my post that you quoted including not quoting the verses that I posted. Let me repeat them again here.

“The God of this people Israel chose our fathers and made the people great during their stay in the land of Egypt, and with an uplifted arm He led them out from it. For a period of about forty years He put up with them in the wilderness. When He had destroyed seven nations in the land of Canaan, He distributed their land as an inheritance—all of which took about 450 years. After these things He gave them judges until Samuel the prophet. Then they asked for a king, and God gave them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for forty years. After He had removed him, He raised up David to be their king, concerning whom He also testified and said, ‘I have found David, the son of Jesse, a man after My heart, who will do all My will.’ From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, after John had proclaimed, before His coming, a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. And while John was completing his course, he kept saying, ‘What do you suppose that I am? I am not He. But behold, One is coming after me, the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to untie.’ “Brothers, sons of Abraham’s family, and those among you who fear God, to us the message of this salvation has been sent. For those who live in Jerusalem, and their rulers, recognizing neither Him nor the declarations of the prophets which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled these by condemning Him. And though they found no grounds for putting Him to death, they asked Pilate that He be executed. When they had carried out everything that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the cross and laid Him in a tomb. and for many days He appeared to those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, the very ones who are now His witnesses to the people. And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers, that God has fulfilled this promise to those of us who are the descendants by raising Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My Son; today I have fathered You.’ As for the fact that He raised Him from the dead, never again to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: ‘I will give you the holy and faithful mercies of David.’ Therefore, He also says in another Psalm: ‘You will not allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.’ For David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, fell asleep, and was buried among his fathers and underwent decay; Therefore let it be known to you, brothers, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭13‬:‭17‬-‭29‬, ‭31‬-‭36‬, ‭38‬-‭39‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Paul is preaching the Gospel to the men of Israel and those who fear God. Paul’s words are the Gospel although, because he is speaking to Jews, also included what God did for the Jews. Paul finishes his discourse with exactly what the gospel does for the believer that the law of Moses cannot, the forgiveness of sins for those who believe. Why would Paul, or anyone for that matter, preach a law as part of the gospel that can not lead to the forgiveness of sins?

Hentenza said:

Paul was defending himself against the Jews who were accusing him and wanting the Romans to punish Paul.

“After three days Paul called together those who were the leading men of the Jews, and when they came together, he began saying to them, “Brothers, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was handed over to the Romans as a prisoner from Jerusalem. And when they had examined me, they were willing to release me because there were no grounds for putting me to death.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28‬:‭17‬-‭18‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Acts 28:17-18 (NASB2020) - After three days Paul called togeth | YouVersion

After three days Paul called together those who were the leading men of the Jews, and when they came together, he began saying to them, “Brothers, though I had done nothing against our people or the c

bible.com

This is a continuation of Acts 21 where the Jews wanted to kill Paul for teaching that the Law of Moses and circumcision was not necessary. I don’t understand how you missed such a clear context.

First, Jesus ministry was to the Jews first and then to the gentiles. Second, Jesus kept ALL of the law perfectly which means that He followed the Mosaic law to completion.

Third, the law still reveals sin. By the letter of the law for the unbeliever and by the Holy Spirit for the believer. The law and the prophets hang on Jesus two love commandments.

Well you did not answer my post that you quoted including not quoting the verses that I posted. Let me repeat them again here.

“The God of this people Israel chose our fathers and made the people great during their stay in the land of Egypt, and with an uplifted arm He led them out from it. For a period of about forty years He put up with them in the wilderness. When He had destroyed seven nations in the land of Canaan, He distributed their land as an inheritance—all of which took about 450 years. After these things He gave them judges until Samuel the prophet. Then they asked for a king, and God gave them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for forty years. After He had removed him, He raised up David to be their king, concerning whom He also testified and said, ‘I have found David, the son of Jesse, a man after My heart, who will do all My will.’ From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, after John had proclaimed, before His coming, a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. And while John was completing his course, he kept saying, ‘What do you suppose that I am? I am not He. But behold, One is coming after me, the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to untie.’ “Brothers, sons of Abraham’s family, and those among you who fear God, to us the message of this salvation has been sent. For those who live in Jerusalem, and their rulers, recognizing neither Him nor the declarations of the prophets which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled these by condemning Him. And though they found no grounds for putting Him to death, they asked Pilate that He be executed. When they had carried out everything that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the cross and laid Him in a tomb. and for many days He appeared to those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, the very ones who are now His witnesses to the people. And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers, that God has fulfilled this promise to those of us who are the descendants by raising Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My Son; today I have fathered You.’ As for the fact that He raised Him from the dead, never again to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: ‘I will give you the holy and faithful mercies of David.’ Therefore, He also says in another Psalm: ‘You will not allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.’ For David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, fell asleep, and was buried among his fathers and underwent decay; Therefore let it be known to you, brothers, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭13‬:‭17‬-‭29‬, ‭31‬-‭36‬, ‭38‬-‭39‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Acts 13:17-39 (NASB2020) - The God of this people Israel chose | YouVersion

The God of this people Israel chose our fathers and made the people great during their stay in the land of Egypt, and with an uplifted arm He led them out from it. For a period of about forty years He

bible.com

Paul is preaching the Gospel to the men of Israel and those who fear God. Paul’s words are the Gospel although, because he is speaking to Jews, also included what God did for the Jews. Paul finishes his discourse with exactly what the gospel does for the believer that the law of Moses cannot, the forgiveness of sins for those who believe. Why would Paul, or anyone for that matter, preach a law as part of the gospel that can not lead to the forgiveness of sins?

Click to expand...

Is the law not capable of forgiving sin or overcoming sin?

weary2025 said:

Is the law not capable of forgiving sin or overcoming sin?

Click to expand...

No. The law is thou shall not. It’s about covering sin. The law leads unbelievers to Christ where they can find forgiveness of sins. The law only convicts.

hopeforhappiness said:

I don't have a problem with this. I would like you to look at the recorded times when Jesus brought his hearers to a place where their self-confidence in their acceptance by God (by virtue of keeping the law or belonging to Israel) would be degraded so that they would consider the true work of God, which was to believe in the One whom He has sent. How did He do this?

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Jesus taught sin starts with the heart. Abide in Him- we are changed by what we behold. 2 Corinthians 3:18. Jesus loves us just the way we are but He loves us too much for us to stay in the bondage of sin and the devil. We need a complete heart transformation and Jesus taught this by connecting our thoughts with our actions.

For example:

Mat 5:27 “You have heard that it was said [i]to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to [j]sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to [k]sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

So a good start is to make a covenant with our eyes. Be careful what we are watching on TV as it is very damaging to the Christian mind, allowing our minds to be re-programed away from God's will. Not to put ourselves in situations that we know we will be tempted.

hopeforhappiness said:

In my discussions with my friend, he said you have to go through the 10 commandments with people and prove to them that they had broken them all or at least one of them.

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Yes, we have all sinned and fallen short of God's will and Scripture teaches you break one of the Ten Commandments you break them all as they are all interconnected James2:10-12

While no one can overcome sin on their own we can through Christ. John15:4-10 The first step is to understand what is God's plan for our lives. He came to save us from our sin Mat1:21 not in sin Heb10:26-26 and the only way we can overcome is to die daily of self- our own selfish desires, wants and needs and focus on Christ. It may include changing friends, changing churches, changing schools, disrupting our whole life but God only wants what is best for us and wants to give us the true meaning of peace and happiness Isa 48:18, the devil wants us servants to sin. Sadly many churches now teach their devil is bigger than their god to keep them in sin than God is to keep us from sin.

hopeforhappiness said:

He didn't accept that Jesus didnt do that.

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Are you saying your friend thinks Jesus sinned? Maybe you can clarify.

hopeforhappiness said:

For example He used parables and less direct methods.
In fact almost all Jews of His day would have no problems understanding that the Law was the measure of their acceptability to God. And some, especially the religious leaders were offended that Jesus seemed to be insisting on a different test, which would ultimately lead to a broken heart and to Him as saviour.

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Jesus used parables they wouldn't listen to His plain words. Keep in mind most of the Jews Jesus was speaking with never kept God's commandments, but their own man-made rules they elevated over God's. They added many rules to God's commandments especially the 4th commandment that God never did, making it a burden instead of the delight it is meant to be. Jesus spent a lot of time correcting the Jews on keeping the commandments correctly because unfortunately they elevated their man-made traditions over God's commandments something He condemned Mat 15:3-14 Mark7:7-13 people today do the exact same thing. The commandments was never meant to be punishment or a burden 1John5:3 its the right way God wants His people to live and through our love and cooperation in Him He can transform us from the inside out. John14:15-18 but it does require our cooperation, things we are doing outside His will to repent (change our mind and direction) for the Kingdom of God is at hand. Mat4:17

hopeforhappiness said:

Tuesday at 9:37 AM
#1
I have an acquaintance who insists on this and in my opinion has made this a harsh and judgemental approach and he uses it often in his dealings with church members.
Now, clearly there is a discussion about how to use the Law. If it is about behaviour then yes, it can serve a purpose in that those self-righteous in their behaviour can be made to see how that separates from God. But the Law (summarised especially in the first two) is also to do with attitudes and desires. These also separate from God and are very relevant in pre-evangelism.
BUT....Jesus IMO majored on the attitudes and this IMO leads evangelists to be more compassionate and empathetic in their work. (which is all our work, as well). Because I don't think Jesus used the Law in its behaviour dimension, especially in his dealings with those who would be more receptive. He saw inside them, to their hidden weakness (the woman in adultery, the rich young ruler), with Knowledge from His Father. He didn't go through the 10 commandments, getting the people to examine their failings in each category. He went straight to a One Issue that would convict. A lesson for us?
Because the central issue, and I argued this with with the guy I have mentioned, is the Original Sin of the Garden, in that mankind really doesn't like the idea of God in our lives and wants to go its own way in pride. It is this that has to be finally acknowledged, even after repentance for thoughts and deeds of greed and lust and anger, and it was this that Christ died on the cross for. To repair our estrangement from God. But then of course this is encapsulated in failing the first commandment.
One last question and which is relevant. Jesus talked of not one jot falling from the Law until "all is accomplished". How does that relate to Christ's final words - "It is finished"

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I think there is Gods law and order and this naturally flows from God. I think we all know Gods laws.

If we are born again in Christ then we want to please God. We overcome the flesh and our weak fallen nature. Our minds are renewed and we no longer are of the world.

So if a church of individual born again in Christ come together they should be of one mind and spirit. There should be little disgareement and division.

Paul was completely conflident in the teachings that he could demand that those who had a different teachings were false teachers. A sinner would be rebuked and offered repentence. Otherwise they were put out of the church to ptrotect the flock.

So the church community stood on a clear and unified teaching and protected this from the world. It seems protecting the church was important. It began at the top with strong overseers who did not compromise.

But as Paul also says that rebuking and reproving and protecting the church should be done with a gentle and generous spirit. Without love it has no reason that is grounded in Christ.

But both sides are needed. I think the modern Church can be both too accommodating and too dogmatic.

Basically if the gospel is preached properly and people respond in kind then there should be little problem with people being of one mind and spirit. Then much of these problems I think are avoided. So something is going wrong with the original message. People are not renewing their minds. They are still living in the world.

hopeforhappiness said:

Tuesday at 9:37 AM
#1
I have an acquaintance who insists on this and in my opinion has made this a harsh and judgemental approach and he uses it often in his dealings with church members.
Now, clearly there is a discussion about how to use the Law. If it is about behaviour then yes, it can serve a purpose in that those self-righteous in their behaviour can be made to see how that separates from God. But the Law (summarised especially in the first two) is also to do with attitudes and desires. These also separate from God and are very relevant in pre-evangelism.
BUT....Jesus IMO majored on the attitudes and this IMO leads evangelists to be more compassionate and empathetic in their work. (which is all our work, as well). Because I don't think Jesus used the Law in its behaviour dimension, especially in his dealings with those who would be more receptive. He saw inside them, to their hidden weakness (the woman in adultery, the rich young ruler), with Knowledge from His Father. He didn't go through the 10 commandments, getting the people to examine their failings in each category. He went straight to a One Issue that would convict. A lesson for us?
Because the central issue, and I argued this with with the guy I have mentioned, is the Original Sin of the Garden, in that mankind really doesn't like the idea of God in our lives and wants to go its own way in pride. It is this that has to be finally acknowledged, even after repentance for thoughts and deeds of greed and lust and anger, and it was this that Christ died on the cross for. To repair our estrangement from God. But then of course this is encapsulated in failing the first commandment.
One last question and which is relevant. Jesus talked of not one jot falling from the Law until "all is accomplished". How does that relate to Christ's final words - "It is finished"

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John 4:34
Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

If God finished his works, on the 6th day, what work did Jesus need to finish?

I dont understand why people treat the 10 commandments as the standard. I've learned much more about God's commandments in the new testament.

hopeforhappiness said:

Well an interesting line of enquiry would be to list those items where the lawyers took Jesus's statements as blasphemously adding or taking away from the Law. Because those people may have been hypocrites and intransigent, but they weren't stupid. They knew the Law. At some point we have to say that Jesus did something to the Law which fundamentally changed it's application and covenantal purpose.

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I don't know. I just obey the new testament according to my understanding