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Sabbath Keeping and The Gospel

Studyman

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Have you booked your flights to Israel for the pilgrim feasts?

I am quite used to being mocked, especially by those who "Come in Christ's Name", and are "intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind". Which is made manifest by such an ignorant post.

But such humiliation is the power of God, I am therefore blessed by your mocking.

Duet. 16: 15 Seven days shalt thou keep a solemn feast unto the LORD thy God in the place which the LORD shall choose: because the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all thine increase, and in all the works of thine hands, therefore thou shalt surely rejoice. 16 Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty:

1 Kings 9: 4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments: 5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel. 6 But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:

7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; "and this house", which I have hallowed for my name, "will I cast out of my sight" and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people: 8 And at this house, which is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and to this house?

I could try and reason with you about how the Kingdom of God has always dwelled within men, and the Temple of God was always in the mind of men, and the people of the kingdom has always been the thoughts of men, that we battle against. And the Place God chooses for His people to Keep His Feasts, has never been a Temple made of Wood and Stone. But you would just post Acts 15:20, separate it from the rest of God's Word, and then use it to mock me again.

And Jesus said you would not be persuaded otherwise, and HE is proven Right once again.

"And he said unto him, If they "hear not" Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Who knows, maybe there is someone else reading along that might consider the difference in Philosophy when all of God's Words are considered.
 
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tall73

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My point is, that today we have the same Oracles of God in our own homes that they had, but didn't believe, therefore "we" now sit in Moses seat and this same Jesus is still my Lord.
Yes, we now have the Scriptures.


The implication of your adopted religious philosophy is that the private interpretation of one sentence promoted by the religions of this world God placed me in,

You mean the decision of the church, which the Holy Spirit agreed with.



makes Void Jesus' Words, and erases Paul's Epistles he wrote to God's Church later on. And yet, in discussion after discussion, this is the foundation of your teaching.

Not at all. I have responded in-depth to the various texts in this thread. I don't hold that the decision of the council made void the words of Jesus, Paul, etc., and there is a lot more than one sentence to consider.

Now go respond to those and we can look at the context, if you want. But if all you are going to do is repeat your discussion of invented religions, we can skip that.


No doubt they could select a scripture, separate it from all other scriptures, and justify their disobedience. This is the course of this world. But as we can see, the Pharisees in Paul's time, just as the rebellious Israelites, were shown the Gospel of Christ, but didn't believe it,

I can see that the apostles and elders met, and gave a judgment, that the Holy Spirit agreed with, and you keep trying to downplay it. It doesn't need to be separated from other Scriptures. And I have discussed other Scriptures in this thread.


A Gospel that clearly defined for all, God's Love towards men, both born with and without Jewish DNA,

Which is not denied. But what you are denying is the actual decision of the council which did not draw up the same requirements for Gentiles.


or "Every One", who would deny themselves and "Turn to Him" as did the Gentiles did in Acts.

Is. 56:
Addressed at great length in this thread. Feel free to respond to the particulars.

And yet "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, have adopted the exact same philosophy of religious voices that exist in the world God placed us in, voices who profess to know God, who even quotes "some" of God's Word, concerning this one sentence in Acts 15.

You really don't like that sentence. But the Holy Spirit did. And it is repeated in Acts 21, years later, still the same requirement.


My hope is that you might consider more or all of Jesus and the Apostles teaching
Yes, you can engage with a number of texts in this various thread already discussed.


But this issue isn't worth contention in my view. It is my understanding that by the time Paul came into the picture, there were many Gentiles that heard about Jesus and His teaching and were seeking the God of Abraham by hearing His Word being spoken in the Jews Synagogues. Cornelius may have been an example of that very thing. I believe Paul openly encouraged the Gentiles to seek God's Righteousness, and Yield themselves to God. And that the Holy Scriptures were trustworthy for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works", not for just men born of Jewish DNA, but for all men.
Yes, indeed the OT Scriptures are trustworthy. And certainly God was leading many to them.

But God was also involved in the judgment of the Apostles and Elders, which the Holy Spirit agreed with.


And truly those men who contended with Paul were not honest men.

Agreed. But the Apostles, and elders were.

And the Holy Spirit agreed with their decision. So you can take comfort from the fact that the council didn't take the advice of the Pharisee contingent of Acts 15.
 
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tall73

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You made the statement;
  • You didn't answer the question about what exactly they expected Gentiles to keep.
I replied,

"Jesus tells you the answer to this question in Matt. 23:1-4. As I pointed out in earlier post, the Apostles also understood that the Gentiles would grow in the knowledge of God by hearing the Holy Scriptures that Paul taught both Jew and Gentile were trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."."

Matt. 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, "that observe and do"; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4 For they (Pharisees, not God or Moses) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and "lay them on men's shoulders"; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

The philosophy that 1 sentence spoken in act's 15 makes the Word's of the Lord's Christ here void, irrelevant, or a vain deceit, though perhaps popular in the religions of the world God placed us in, Is not the Gospel of Christ, as defined by the Holy Scriptures.


Can you really not see the point the Scriptures are making here?

I see the point the Scriptures are making, and already discussed it. The Scriptures are reliable. The point you are making I do not see. That we should ignore the actual judgment of the Apostles, elders, and that the Holy Spirit agreed with.


And concerning the Pharisees trying to be Justified by the "works of the Law", I'm not sure if you are just trolling me or what, but lets post it again.

Sorry, I wasn't responding to your generic take on the Pharisees, which you have repeated at length. Of course the Pharisees did not truly keep God's law, or understand His word, but especially because they missed the One it spoke of.

I was responding to the actual text of Acts 15:

Acts 15:1-11​
1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”
These folks were contending they had to be circumcised to be saved. That is in the text.
2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.​
3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren. 4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them. 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”​
The pharisee contingent among the believers asserted that they should circumcise the Gentiles, and command them to keep the law of Moses. That is in the text.
6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.” (NKJV)
Peter asserts that both groups will be saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Gentiles were purified in their hearts by faith. They don't need to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.

That is all from the text.

And the judgment sent is also from the text:


Acts 15:24-29​
24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.​
Farewell. (NKJV)​

This is true, the Pharisees were a religion that despised God's Judgments, full well "rejected God's Commandments" by walking in their own religious traditions. They taught for doctrines the Commandments of men, "not God". They created their own high days, polluted God's Sabbaths and were, according to Jesus , "children of the devil". And yet every week they would gather together and offer to God the Blood of an unblemished, innocent life, as per the Law, to justify their disobedience. But as God teaches through Isaiah (Is. 1:1-20) and through Paul, "No Flesh is Justified by works of the LAW".

Is this not the "yoke" the pharisees were placing on the necks of the Gentiles that the Disciples and their fathers before them couldn't bear?

No, per Peter's statement, he was indicating that the Gentiles were already purified by faith. They didn't need the legal requirements. And just as Peter and the rest could not be saved by law keeping, because they already violated the law, neither could the Gentiles.


And today, if a religion that exists in the world God placed me in, .........And now I am to just forget and reject all of these things because of this world's religions interpretation of this one sentence in Act's 15?

You are supposed to take the judgment of the Apostles, elders, which the Holy Spirit agreed with. The rest of that extended speech about the pharisees seems to be your own way of not going with it.


I really hope you might reconsider the philosophy you have adopted on this matter. But it is your choice.

Then you will have to show how your view lines up with all the various texts and their contexts.
No Sir, that's not the debate in Acts 15 at all. The debate was, are the Gentiles to be converted to the "Jews religion" they "said" was founded on the Law of Moses, but the Apostles knew it wasn't.

I quoted the text.


The philosophy that verse 20 wipes out the entire Gospel of Christ, or any Word Jesus Spoke, or any of Paul's teaching throughout his Epistles, might be popular in the religious sects and businesses which existed in this world that God placed us in, but the Holy Scriptures doesn't teach this philosophy at all, at least not according to all that is written.

It appears to be popular in your mind, but I have not claimed that. You seem to want to wipe out that sentence from the Apostles and the elders, that the Holy Spirit agreed with.
 
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tall73

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I am quite used to being mocked, especially by those who "Come in Christ's Name", and are "intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind". Which is made manifest by such an ignorant post. But such humiliation is the power of God, I am therefore blessed by your mocking.

Actually it was a serious question. You have said the Gentiles were to learn to keep the law. I am asking if you are doing that.


Duet. 16: 15 Seven days shalt thou keep a solemn feast unto the LORD thy God in the place which the LORD shall choose: because the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all thine increase, and in all the works of thine hands, therefore thou shalt surely rejoice. 16 Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty:

1 Kings 9: 4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments: 5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel. 6 But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:

7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; "and this house", which I have hallowed for my name, "will I cast out of my sight" and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people: 8 And at this house, which is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and to this house?

I could try and reason with you about how the Kingdom of God has always dwelled within men, and the Temple of God was always in the mind of men, and the people of the kingdom has always been the thoughts of men, that we battle against. And the Place God chooses for His people to Keep His Feasts, has never been a Temple made of Wood and Stone. But you would just post Acts 15:20, separate it from the rest of God's Word, and then use it to mock me again.

Jesus gave the time when people would no longer worship in Jerusalem or Gerizim, and I quoted it multiple times in this thread.

However, you seemed to be pushing for all the law to be kept. But then when any specific is pointed out, such as traveling to Jerusalem for the pilgrim feasts, or circumcision, etc. you indicate there are various reasons you don't do that.

I am just trying to see how you apply your own principle.
I asked you to spell out exactly what you are calling for. And apparently the only way to get you to answer is to ask very specific questions, which you then take as mocking.

So it sounds like you are not going to Jerusalem. You are not calling on folks to be circumcised. You are not actually keeping all the law

Got it.

And Jesus said you would not be persuaded otherwise, and HE is proven Right once again.

"And he said unto him, If they "hear not" Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

I am persuaded by Jesus, and also by the Apostles, elders and the Holy Spirit. It is you I am not persuaded by.


Who knows, maybe there is someone else reading along that might consider the difference in Philosophy when all of God's Words are considered.

Yes, perhaps. But if you want to show your view is correct you have to discuss it through all the texts, in context, not just talk about the pharisees--especially since their proposal at the council was rejected.
 
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tall73

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Yes, two different rest being spoken, one we enter by faith Heb4:2 and the Sabbath rest which is according to the commandment of God Luke23:56

spiritual "rest" (katapausis, v. 8), a sabbatismos (v. 9) remains for Christians.

Hebrews 4:9 literally means keeping the Sabbath- that God said is the seventh day

The context all relates to the spiritual rest of faith, entered into "today." You have inserted the weekly Sabbath into verse 9. But even the authors of the SDA Bible commentary didn't agree with that because the context doesn't match up.

Original Word: σαββατισμός
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Pronunciation: sab-bat-is-mos'
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
sabbatismos: Sabbath rest
Definition: Sabbath rest
Meaning:
a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

You appear to be using the term in a technical sense that is limited to only the weekly Sabbath. But this is not accurate.

This is the only instance in Scripture of the word, but we have usage that do not relate to the weekly Sabbath, such as in Origin.


Origen On Prayer, 17

1771811563873.png


When a man has had vision of these things and has given thought to a week of ages with intent to contemplate a kind of holy sabbath—keeping and a month of ages to see God’s holy new moon, and a year of ages to survey the feasts of the year when every male must appear before the Lord God, and the corresponding years of so many ages to discern the seventh holy year, and seven weekly years of ages to sing a hymn to the Enactor of Laws so great, how can he after such consideration cavil over what is the merest fraction of an hour in the day of such an age, instead of doing everything to become, through his preparation here, worthy of obtaining the needful bread and to receive it while it is today and daily, what daily means being already clear from the foregoing explanations.​

Here Origin relates the word to a week of ages sabbath keeping, which is certainly beyond a description of a literal 7th day Sabbath observance.

Moreover, as the SDA Bible Commentary authors, as well as others, have noted, the verbal form is used interchangeably with the other term for rest in the LXX.

And we have a commentary on this passage from a native Greek speaker closer to the time who recognizes the word means a sabbath rest, but does not point to the weekly Sabbath.

Note, I don't quote him in this case so you may consider him authoritative in his theology, but in regards to understanding of the Greek usage, as that is part of your argument.

Some highlights from Chrysostom's comments on Hebrews 3-4:

When David then, he says, speaking at a later period, and after these events, after that generation of men, said, Today, if you will hear His voice, harden not your hearts, that you may not suffer the same things which your forefathers did, and be deprived of the Rest; he evidently said this as of some [future] rest. For if they had received their Rest he says why does He again say to them, Today if you will hear His voice harden not your hearts, as your fathers did? What other rest then is there, except the kingdom of Heaven, of which the Sabbath was an image and type?​
What then does he say? Hebrews 4:9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. And see how he has summed up the whole argument. He swore, says he, to those former ones, that they should not enter into the rest, and they did not enter in. Then long after their time discoursing to the Jews, he says, Harden not your hearts, as your fathers, showing that there is another rest. For of Palestine we have not to speak: for they were already in possession of it. Nor can he be speaking of the seventh; for surely he was not discoursing about that which had taken place long before. It follows therefore that he hints at some other, that which is rest indeed.​
And well did he conclude the argument. For he said not rest but Sabbath-keeping; calling the kingdom Sabbath-keeping, by the appropriate name, and that which they rejoiced in and were attracted by.​
For that is indeed rest, where pain, sorrow and sighing are fled away Isaiah 35:10: where there are neither cares, nor labors, nor struggle, nor fear stunning and shaking the soul; but only that fear of God which is full of delight. There is not, In the sweat of your face you shall eat your bread, nor thorns and thistles Genesis 3:19; no longer, In sorrow you shall bring forth children, and to your husband shall be your desire and he shall rule over you. Genesis 3:16 All is peace, joy, gladness, pleasure, goodness, gentleness. There is no jealousy, nor envy, no sickness, no death whether of the body, or that of the soul. There is no darkness nor night; all [is] day, all light, all things are bright. It is not possible to be weary, it is not possible to be satiated: we shall always persevere in the desire of good things. Homily on Hebrews, John Chrysostom, Arch-bishop of Constantinople.​

He applies it to rest in the kingdom of God.

You disagreed with the SDA Bible commentary I quoted from earlier, but didn't address their linguistic and contextual arguments.

Accordingly, the fundamental idea expressed by sabbizo in the LXX is that of rest or ceasing from labor or other activity. Hence usage of the related Greek and Hebrew words implies that the noun sabbatismos may denote either the literal Sabbath "rest" or simply "rest" or "cessation" in a more general sense. Thus, a linguistic study of the word sabbatismos in Heb. 4:9 leaves it uncertain whether the weekly Sabbath "rest" is here referred to, or simply "rest or "cessation" in a general sense.​

The writer of Hebrews appears to use katapausis and sabbatismos more or less synonymously. Because Joshua could not lead Israel into spiritual "rest" (katapausis, v. 8), a sabbatismos (v. 9) remains for Christians. Consistency seems to require that what remains be the same as what was there to begin with. Because Joshua did not lead literal Israel into spiritual "rest" would be no reason for the Christian to observe the Sabbath.​
From vs. 1, 6 it is clear that what remains for the people of God in NT times is a katapausis; in v. 9 it is said that a sabbatismos remains.​
The fact that in the LXX, the Bible of the NT church, Katapauo (Gen. 2:2, 3; Ex. 20:11) and sabbatizo (Ex. 16:30; Lev. 23:32) are used interchangeably to denote the seventh-day Sabbath, would tend to preclude the suggestion that the writer of Hebrews intended to make a distinction between the noun forms of these words in Hebrews 3; 4.​
Furthermore, it may be observed that the section of the book of Hebrews consisting of chs. 3 and 4 opened with an invitation to "consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus" (ch. 3:1), and closes with an earnest plea to "come boldly" before Him in order to "obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need" (ch. 4:16). What relationship a protracted argument designed to prove Sabbath observance remains an obligation to the Christian church might have to the declared theme of chs. 3 and 4--the ministry of Christ as our great High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary--is obscure indeed.​

Then the SDA Bible Commentary quotes Ellen White on the subject:

"The rest here spoken of is the rest of grace" (EGW Supplementary Material on Heb. 4:9) From Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 16 (1901)​

And they provide this quote, but I have put in additional context to see even more clearly:

And thus the mountain from which the words of benediction were spoken came to be known as the mount of blessing. But it was not upon Gerizim that the words were spoken which have come as a benediction to a sinning and sorrowing world. Israel fell short of the high ideal which had been set before her. Another than Joshua must guide His people to the true rest of faith. No longer is Gerizim known as the mount of the Beatitudes, but that unnamed mountain beside the Lake of Gennesaret, where Jesus spoke the words of blessing to His disciples and the multitude.​
Ellen White--Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing Chapter 1​
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The context all relates to the spiritual rest of faith, entered into "today." You have inserted the weekly Sabbath into verse 9. But even the authors of the SDA Bible commentary didn't agree with that because the context doesn't match up.



You appear to be using the term in a technical sense that is limited to only the weekly Sabbath. But this is not accurate.

This is the only instance in Scripture of the word, but we have usage that do not relate to the weekly Sabbath, such as in Origin.


Origen On Prayer, 17

View attachment 376880

When a man has had vision of these things and has given thought to a week of ages with intent to contemplate a kind of holy sabbath—keeping and a month of ages to see God’s holy new moon, and a year of ages to survey the feasts of the year when every male must appear before the Lord God, and the corresponding years of so many ages to discern the seventh holy year, and seven weekly years of ages to sing a hymn to the Enactor of Laws so great, how can he after such consideration cavil over what is the merest fraction of an hour in the day of such an age, instead of doing everything to become, through his preparation here, worthy of obtaining the needful bread and to receive it while it is today and daily, what daily means being already clear from the foregoing explanations.​

Here Origin relates the word to a week of ages sabbath keeping, which is certainly beyond a description of a literal 7th day Sabbath observance.

Moreover, as the SDA Bible Commentary authors, as well as others, have noted, the verbal form is used interchangeably with the other term for rest in the LXX.

And we have a commentary on this passage from a native Greek speaker closer to the time who recognizes the word means a sabbath rest, but does not point to the weekly Sabbath.

Note, I don't quote him in this case so you may consider him authoritative in his theology, but in regards to the Greek usage, as that is part of your argument.

Some highlights from Chrysostom's comments on Hebrews 3-4:

When David then, he says, speaking at a later period, and after these events, after that generation of men, said, Today, if you will hear His voice, harden not your hearts, that you may not suffer the same things which your forefathers did, and be deprived of the Rest; he evidently said this as of some [future] rest. For if they had received their Rest he says why does He again say to them, Today if you will hear His voice harden not your hearts, as your fathers did? What other rest then is there, except the kingdom of Heaven, of which the Sabbath was an image and type?​
What then does he say? Hebrews 4:9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. And see how he has summed up the whole argument. He swore, says he, to those former ones, that they should not enter into the rest, and they did not enter in. Then long after their time discoursing to the Jews, he says, Harden not your hearts, as your fathers, showing that there is another rest. For of Palestine we have not to speak: for they were already in possession of it. Nor can he be speaking of the seventh; for surely he was not discoursing about that which had taken place long before. It follows therefore that he hints at some other, that which is rest indeed.​
And well did he conclude the argument. For he said not rest but Sabbath-keeping; calling the kingdom Sabbath-keeping, by the appropriate name, and that which they rejoiced in and were attracted by.​
For that is indeed rest, where pain, sorrow and sighing are fled away Isaiah 35:10: where there are neither cares, nor labors, nor struggle, nor fear stunning and shaking the soul; but only that fear of God which is full of delight. There is not, In the sweat of your face you shall eat your bread, nor thorns and thistles Genesis 3:19; no longer, In sorrow you shall bring forth children, and to your husband shall be your desire and he shall rule over you. Genesis 3:16 All is peace, joy, gladness, pleasure, goodness, gentleness. There is no jealousy, nor envy, no sickness, no death whether of the body, or that of the soul. There is no darkness nor night; all [is] day, all light, all things are bright. It is not possible to be weary, it is not possible to be satiated: we shall always persevere in the desire of good things. Homily on Hebrews, John Chrysostom, Arch-bishop of Constantinople.​

He applies it to rest in the kingdom of God.

You disagreed with the SDA Bible commentary I quoted from earlier, but didn't address their linguistic and contextual arguments.

Accordingly, the fundamental idea expressed by sabbizo in the LXX is that of rest or ceasing from labor or other activity. Hence usage of the related Greek and Hebrew words implies that the noun sabbatismos may denote either the literal Sabbath "rest" or simply "rest" or "cessation" in a more general sense. Thus, a linguistic study of the word sabbatismos in Heb. 4:9 leaves it uncertain whether the weekly Sabbath "rest" is here referred to, or simply "rest or "cessation" in a general sense.​

The writer of Hebrews appears to use katapausis and sabbatismos more or less synonymously. Because Joshua could not lead Israel into spiritual "rest" (katapausis, v. 8), a sabbatismos (v. 9) remains for Christians. Consistency seems to require that what remains be the same as what was there to begin with. Because Joshua did not lead literal Israel into spiritual "rest" would be no reason for the Christian to observe the Sabbath.​
From vs. 1, 6 it is clear that what remains for the people of God in NT times is a katapausis; in v. 9 it is said that a sabbatismos remains.​
The fact that in the LXX, the Bible of the NT church, Katapauo (Gen. 2:2, 3; Ex. 20:11) and sabbatizo (Ex. 16:30; Lev. 23:32) are used interchangeably to denote the seventh-day Sabbath, would tend to preclude the suggestion that the writer of Hebrews intended to make a distinction between the noun forms of these words in Hebrews 3; 4.​
Furthermore, it may be observed that the section of the book of Hebrews consisting of chs. 3 and 4 opened with an invitation to "consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus" (ch. 3:1), and closes with an earnest plea to "come boldly" before Him in order to "obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need" (ch. 4:16). What relationship a protracted argument designed to prove Sabbath observance remains an obligation to the Christian church might have to the declared theme of chs. 3 and 4--the ministry of Christ as our great High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary--is obscure indeed.​

Then the SDA Bible Commentary quotes Ellen White on the subject:

"The rest here spoken of is the rest of grace" (EGW Supplementary Material on Heb. 4:9) From Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 16 (1901)​

And they provide this quote, but I have put in additional context to see even more clearly:

And thus the mountain from which the words of benediction were spoken came to be known as the mount of blessing. But it was not upon Gerizim that the words were spoken which have come as a benediction to a sinning and sorrowing world. Israel fell short of the high ideal which had been set before her. Another than Joshua must guide His people to the true rest of faith. No longer is Gerizim known as the mount of the Beatitudes, but that unnamed mountain beside the Lake of Gennesaret, where Jesus spoke the words of blessing to His disciples and the multitude.​
Ellen White--Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing Chapter 1​
I said there are two rests being spoken on here, not one, I do not disagree with the commentaries you isolated, but its not just referring to one rest.


There are two different words for rest in this passage because they have different definitions.

The rest in v9 means keeping the Sabbath. It’s derivative of sabbaton which means the Sabbath, sabbatismos is a different word because it means keeping the Sabbath. The Sabbath is the seventh day, thus saith the Lord thy God Exo20:10

Literal meaning
Original Word: σαββατισμός
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Pronunciation: sab-bat-is-mos'
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
sabbatismos: Sabbath rest
Definition: Sabbath rest
Meaning:
a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

Figurative meaning
2. (figuratively) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven)

The other rest being used in Hebrews is

Original Word: κατάπαυσις
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: katapausis
Pronunciation: kah-tah'-pow-sis
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ap'-ow-sis)
KJV: rest
NASB: rest, repose
Word Origin: [from G2664 (καταπαύω - rested)]

1. reposing down
2. (by Hebraism) abode

This is not the Sabbath rest, it’s why many confuse this passage because it speaks of two different rests.

I would appreciate it if you would please stop putting words in my mouth- I never said I disagreed with the SDA commentaries- you do this a lot- look over here and than bring in another context and than try to claim a contradiction.

This is what I stated Sabbath Keeping and The Gospel so I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to cause division.


The audience of SDA commentaries are people who already believe in the seventh day Sabbath, so I understand why they would focus more on the secondary meaning. (This does not say I disagreed with the SDA commentaries) I just never read them until you posted them, because I study the bible for myself.

I believe it means both as well. Hebrews 4 directly speaks of rebellion and disobedience why many of the Israelites could not enter into their promised rest. The rest being referred to is the Promise Land filled with milk and honey which is also symbolic for heaven which we need to enter ours yet to come Rev22:14. Many of the Israelites rebelled Eze20:13 and lost their inheritance and the Scriptures plainly says why Eze20:15-16 they rebelled and profaned God's Sabbath. We are told not to follow in their path of disobedience Heb4:6 Heb4:11 why the Holy Spirit calls on us daily to not harden our hearts to the same rebellion Heb3:7-19 because we have yet to enter into our promised rest Rev22:14. The Sabbath-rest which literally translates into Sabbath-keeping remains for God's people but I agree in addition it also speaks of the rest in heaven because no one in heaven will be in rebellion to any of God's commandments, that's unrest Rev14:11 compared to the next verse Rev14:12 those who enter have been transformed by Christ and are already keeping them Rev22:14. In God's rest there is just peace and righteousness, Isa 48:18 unrest is rebellion and sin. So I see the double application and agree with both. Sadly many only claim the second one and may miss how we enter it- because it always included both Heb4:10
 
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tall73

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I said there are two rests being spoken on here, not one, I do not disagree with the commentaries you isolated, but its not just referring to one rest.

There are two different words for rest in this passage because they have different definitions.The rest in v9 means keeping the Sabbath. It’s derivative of sabbaton which means the Sabbath, sabbatismos is different word because it means keeping the Sabbath.


No, in fact that was the point of showing the usage and the commentaries. Sabbatismos means a sabbath rest (inherently indefinte)--but not limited to the weekly Sabbath. It can refer to other than the weekly Sabbath, as in the case of Origin, and as explained be Chrystostom. So too the verb form seen in the LXX, where it is used of the Day of Atonement, etc.

That is why I said you didn't deal with their linguistic arguments. The term is a sabbath rest in general, not specific to the 7th day Sabbath.

This is not the Sabbath rest, it’s why many confuse this passage because it speaks of two different rests.

Chrysostom a native Greek speaker wasn't confused. Neither were the SDA Bible Commentary folks. They understand the usage.

I would appreciate it if you would please stop putting words in my mouth I never said I disagreed with the SDA commentaries- you do this a lot- look over here and than bring in another context and than try to claim a contradiction.

You do disagree with them. You said there were two distinct rests. They did not. You said the words are used two different ways. They said they are used more or less synonymously. You say Sabbatismos refers to the weekly Sabbath. They say that the context doesn't fit that, and that Joshua not leading them into Spiritual rest would be no reason for the Christian to observe the Sabbath.


The writer of Hebrews appears to use katapausis and sabbatismos more or less synonymously. Because Joshua could not lead Israel into spiritual "rest" (katapausis, v. 8), a sabbatismos (v. 9) remains for Christians. Consistency seems to require that what remains be the same as what was there to begin with. Because Joshua did not lead literal Israel into spiritual "rest" would be no reason for the Christian to observe the Sabbath.​

You are not saying the same thing.

This is what I stated so I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to cause division.

I am not trying to cause division by noting that you do not agree with the commentary.

You are making two different arguments. When they say:

Furthermore, it may be observed that the section of the book of Hebrews consisting of chs. 3 and 4 opened with an invitation to "consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus" (ch. 3:1), and closes with an earnest plea to "come boldly" before Him in order to "obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need" (ch. 4:16). What relationship a protracted argument designed to prove Sabbath observance remains an obligation to the Christian church might have to the declared theme of chs. 3 and 4--the ministry of Christ as our great High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary--is obscure indeed.​
That is not agreeing with you. That is noting that the context all points away from sabbatismos meaning the weekly Sabbath in this passage.​
 
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SabbathBlessings

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No, in fact that was the point of showing the usage and the commentaries. Sabbatismos means a sabbath rest (inherently indefinte)--but not limited to the weekly Sabbath. It can refer to other than the weekly Sabbath, as in the case of origin, and the usage of Chrystostom. So too the verb form seen in the LXX, where it is used of the Day of Atonement, etc.

That is why I said you didn't deal with their linguistic arguments. The term is a sabbath rest in general, not specific to the 7th day Sabbath.



You are not saying the same thing.



I am not trying to cause division by noting that you do not agree with the commentary.

You are making two different arguments. When they say:

What relationship a protracted argument designed to prove Sabbath observance remains an obligation to the Christian church might have to the declared theme of chs. 3 and 4--the ministry of Christ as our great High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary--is obscure indeed.​
That is not agreeing with you. That is noting that the context all points away from sabbatismos meaning the weekly Sabbath in this passage.​

John Chrystostom. Is not even an Adventist so once again, it’s deception to use a non-Adventist and than compare it to a proclaimed Adventist and than I claim I disagree with Adventist commentary. They are two completely different Greek words so would have two different meanings and they do. For the record I do not agree with all SDA commentary, I do not believe everyone who claims to be SDA is, even Jesus had a Judas, we were told there would be many false prophets at the end of time, of course they would come into the church to try to tear it down from the inside, we have people on tape even admitting to this. Why my studies are from my own, I do not read a lot of commentaries, I prefer prayer and Scripture and studying the original Greek Hebrews words for myself.

I do agree with the SDA official statements of beliefs including the one of the Sabbath.

20. Sabbath​

The gracious Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation.
The fourth commandment of God’s unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath.
The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God’s kingdom.
The Sabbath is God’s perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people.
Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God’s creative and redemptive acts.
(Gen. 2:1-3; Exod. 20:8-11; 31:13-17; Lev. 23:32; Deut. 5:12-15; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Ezek. 20:12, 20; Matt. 12:1-12; Mark 1:32; Luke 4:16; Heb. 4:1-11.)

I also agree with the EGW statements that the Sabbath is a rest of grace- what she doesn’t say its not a literal Sabbath rest or we do not need to keep the literal Sabbath or the rest we enter by faith would welcome rebellion to the 4th commandment that left out an entire generation from their promise land of rest. Eze20:15-16 we are told plainly not to follow in their example of disobedience and rebellion Heb3:7-19 Heb4:11

This is not something I wish to continue, intentionally trying to create division is not fruitful. So I am going to move on, God will sort everything out in His time. I do wish you well.
 
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tall73

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John Chrystostom. Is not even an Adventist so once again, it’s deception to use a non-Adventist and than I claim I disagree with Adventist commentary.
I never claimed Chrysostom was an Adventist! I said he was a native Greek speaker closer to the time who gives an explanation of the meaning.



They are two completely different Greek words so would have two different meanings and they do. For the record I do not agree with all SDA commentary, I do not believe everyone who claims to be SDA is, even Jesus had a Judas. My studies are from my own, I do not read a lot of commentaries.
That is fine, you don't have to agree. I was asking you to address their arguments.

I do agree with the SDA official statements of beliefs.

20. Sabbath​

The gracious Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation.
The fourth commandment of God’s unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath.

The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God’s kingdom.
The Sabbath is God’s perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God’s creative and redemptive acts.
(Gen. 2:1-3; Exod. 20:8-11; 31:13-17; Lev. 23:32; Deut. 5:12-15; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Ezek. 20:12, 20; Matt. 12:1-12; Mark 1:32; Luke 4:16; Heb. 4:1-11.)


I do not believe I am engaging in an honest discussion. I see what you’re doing and it’s not something I wish to continue as it’s not fruitful.

I accurately pointed out you didn't agree with the SDA commentary which you now seem to acknowledge. I asked you to address their arguments. And I showed you usage from Origin and commentary from Chrysostom from earlier centuries. That is not dishonest. That is evidence.
 
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tall73

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This is not something I wish to continue, intentionally trying to create division is not fruitful. So I am going to move on, God will sort everything out in His time. I do wish you well.

Since you now edited this portion I will respond to this version as well.

Presenting evidence to be addressed is not "trying to create division."
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Since you now edited this portion I will respond to this version as well.

Presenting evidence to be addressed is not "trying to create division."
It’s not evidence when it doesn’t say what you want it to. For example, you were trying to indicate EGW taught that Heb 4 is not about the Sabbath, when she never said any such thing and than used a non-Adventist to try to make the point. Seemingly trying to pit me against what EGW taught when she didn‘t even teach what you are trying to claim, it comes off as intentionally trying to create division.


Your quote from EGW
"The rest here spoken of is the rest of grace" (EGW Supplementary Material on Heb. 4:9) From Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 16 (1901)
She does not say it cancels out the Sabbath, nor does Hebrews 4 nor does she say its not about the Sabbath.

This fits exactly what Adventists believe

-We are saved by grace through faith
-The Sabbath does not earn salvation
-The Sabbath is a celebration of grace, not a method of earning it
-God finished His work at Creation before making one more day to rest in His finished work, the same day He commanded man to rest from their works. Exo20:8-11 as man was made in His likeness and image to be like Him as the Sabbath was made for man. Mark2:27-28

The Sabbath reminds us we do not save ourselves, God is our Creator and Redeemer, we trust His finished work as our our Creator Exo 20:11 and re-Creator Eze20:12 and we cease from our works as God did on the seventh day Heb4:4 Gen2:3 Exo20:11 because we are in harmony with Him and not rebelling against what He asks, as we are made in His image and likeness to follow in His example, not break away and create our own system of work and rest removing what Christ said, essentially not entering in by faith just as many of those who came before us Eze20:15-16

Hebrews 4:9 there remains a Sabbath keeping for the people of God.

The weekly seventh-day Sabbath continues.
It points backward to Creation. Heb4:3-4 Exo20:11
It points to present salvation rest. Exo20:8-11 Rev14:12
It points forward to eternal rest in heaven. Rev 22:14 Isa 66:23

Just like anger in the heart doesn't cancel the commandment to not commit murder- the spiritual aspect of the commandments does not delete the actual commandment itself, it would defeat the entire purpose because the commandments address both the inward man which our outward actions would be a reflection of that change. Mat5:19-30

Here is some SDA commentary ....


E. J. Waggoner

But the “Lord is not slack concerning his promise,” and so “there remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.” This rest is the same as that promised to Abraham, namely, the whole earth; for, after evil-doers have all been cut off, “the meek shall inherit the earth, and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.” Psalm 37:11. The fact that some could not enter into rest because of unbelief, does not invalidate the promise that those who will now believe shall enter into it, for the rest was prepared and completed from the foundation of the world; and God will not allow his original plan to be frustrated. With the knowledge that the earth is the rest that was promised to Abraham and to his seed, and which remains for us who believe, it is very easy to understand Hebrews 4:3, 4, and the relation which the facts there stated bear to that rest. Thus:-

The apostle says, “And God did rest on the seventh day from all his works.” This is positive proof of the statement made just before, namely, that “the works were finished from the foundation of the world.” Genesis 2:3 says that God “rested on the seventh day from all his works which he had made,” and that his blessing pronounced upon the seventh day was “because that in it he had rested from all his works which God created and made.” He made the earth “to be inhabited” (Isaiah 45:18), and gave it to man for a peaceful abode; and the fact that he rested on the seventh day was a proof that the works were finished and the rest prepared. The Sabbath, therefore-the memorial of God’s rest-a day in which to be glad through the work of God, and to triumph in the works of his hands, as we meditate upon their greatness (Psalm 92:4, 5), is an assurance that God has prepared a rest for his people, and that they will share it just as surely as he is the great Creator who changes not. The rest that remains is, therefore, the coming inheritance and kingdom of the saints. The “another day” of Joshua is the day of final reward.

We have not entered into our Promise Rest. I do not believe following in the same path of disobedience and rebellion Eze20:15-16 Eze 20:13 Heb4:6Heb 4:11 we will enter ours Rev22:14 why the Holy Spirit is calling on us not to harden our hearts to the same rebellion Heb3:7-19

It’s both physical and spiritual rest, which is exactly what I said, so no division. And as I also stated, most SDA commentaries I would imagine focus on the secondary meaning of v9 because their audience already accepts God’s 4th commandment and trust Him at His word without editing what He spoke and personally wrote.

 
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tall73

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It’s not evidence when it doesn’t say what you want it to. For example, you were trying to indicate EGW taught that Heb 4 is not about the Sabbath, when she never said any such thing and than used a non-Adventist to try to make the point.


Incorrect. When I first quoted the Adventist commentary back on Thursday I noted that they were the ones quoting from Ellen White to establish the meaning of it.

And I said at the time:

The writers of the SDA Bible Commentary, and Ellen White I think we can all agree thought people should keep the Sabbath. But they recognize that the rest spoken of in Hebrews is entering into faith.​

Moreover, as I have said a number of times, I do not think the Sabbath is done away with.

The context of Hebrews suggests he is writing to Jewish believers who have stood for Christ but may be tempted to go back to Judaism due to persecution, lack of growth in faith, etc. I have no reason to think they were not keeping the Sabbath.

And if the rest is the same throughout in the passage, which the context all indicates, then this is not an anti-Sabbath or pro-Sabbath text. It is just a text about a different topic--resting in faith.

And even though it was the SDA Bible Commentary writers who were making the point, I don't know how we would establish a negative, rergarding that Ellen White didn't also believe that it pointed to the Sabbath.

If you have a statement by her to that effect, please post it. They were apparently not aware of it. I am not either. Though she did write a lot .

I was trying to get you to see their arguments, so that you could address them.


Seemingly trying to pit me against what EGW taught when she didn‘t even teach what you are trying to claim, it comes off as intentionally trying to create division.

I stated from the first time I quoted the commentary that Ellen White obviously believed people should keep the Sabbath.

I was trying to get you to see her interpretation of this passage. Which I actually think she got right.

Your quote from EGW

She does not say it cancels out the Sabbath, nor does Hebrews 4 nor does she say its not about the Sabbath.

I have said it many times in this thread. I don't believe the Sabbath is done away with either. So why would I try to get you to think that?


This fits exactly what Adventists believe

-We are saved by grace through faith

I obviously didn't think there was something wrong with her statement about it pointing to faith and grace. That is why I pointed it out, quoted by the commentary, to begin with.
 
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tall73

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It’s not evidence when it doesn’t say what you want it to. For example, you were trying to indicate EGW taught that Heb 4 is not about the Sabbath, when she never said any such thing and than used a non-Adventist to try to make the point.

The usage from Origin was to establish that the term is not a technical term with only application to the weekly Sabbath, but a term that means sabbath rest more generally.

The commentary from Chrysostom was for the same reason, because he was a native Greek speaker closer to the time who knew the term meant a sabbath rest, but could refer to more than the weekly Sabbath.

And the SDA commentary also looked at the parallels, focusing on the verbal form used in the LXX, and its usage. They list Leviticus 23:32 for instance which is regarding the Day of Atonement, rather than the weekly Sabbath.

As I said from the beginning, I was not using any of them as religious authorities, but to discuss the usage of the term. It is not a technical term limited to reference to the weekly Sabbath. And the context does not fit reference to the weekly Sabbath.
 
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tall73

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Waggoner is an odd choice from your perspective, since he was a semi-Arian, anti-Trinitarian, held pantheistic views, gave up the investigative judgment, and engaged in spiritual wifery, despite Ellen White's warning against it, and by his own statement could not be in the Adventist ministry anymore.

For instance, from a work written shortly before his death:



That question puzzled me for many years;
for I had been so thoroughly indoctrinated with
the idea of a 2300-year period ending in 1844,
that it never occurred to me to doubt it. Indeed,
I never did doubt it for a moment; but one day
the light dawned upon me, and I saw that the
period had no foundation whatever, and then of
course I simply dropped it.

re is some SDA commentary ....


E. J. Waggoner

But the “Lord is not slack concerning his promise,” and so “there remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.” This rest is the same as that promised to Abraham, namely, the whole earth; for, after evil-doers have all been cut off, “the meek shall inherit the earth, and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.” Psalm 37:11. The fact that some could not enter into rest because of unbelief, does not invalidate the promise that those who will now believe shall enter into it, for the rest was prepared and completed from the foundation of the world; and God will not allow his original plan to be frustrated. With the knowledge that the earth is the rest that was promised to Abraham and to his seed, and which remains for us who believe, it is very easy to understand Hebrews 4:3, 4, and the relation which the facts there stated bear to that rest. Thus:-

The apostle says, “And God did rest on the seventh day from all his works.” This is positive proof of the statement made just before, namely, that “the works were finished from the foundation of the world.” Genesis 2:3 says that God “rested on the seventh day from all his works which he had made,” and that his blessing pronounced upon the seventh day was “because that in it he had rested from all his works which God created and made.” He made the earth “to be inhabited” (Isaiah 45:18), and gave it to man for a peaceful abode; and the fact that he rested on the seventh day was a proof that the works were finished and the rest prepared. The Sabbath, therefore-the memorial of God’s rest-a day in which to be glad through the work of God, and to triumph in the works of his hands, as we meditate upon their greatness (Psalm 92:4, 5), is an assurance that God has prepared a rest for his people, and that they will share it just as surely as he is the great Creator who changes not. The rest that remains is, therefore, the coming inheritance and kingdom of the saints. The “another day” of Joshua is the day of final reward.

Note the last sentence. He says "the rest that remains is, therefore, the coming inheritance and kingdom of the saints."

He points out, as does the author of Hebrews, that God began His ongoing rest from creation on the 7th day. His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

The Sabbath is a once-a-week reminder of God's rest at Creation. But the rest of grace/faith that is entered into, which is entered "today" is an ongoing rest, joining God in His rest from works, by resting from our works.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The usage from Origin was to establish that the term is not a technical term with only application to the weekly Sabbath, but a term that means sabbath rest more generally.

The commentary from Chrysostom was for the same reason, because he was a native Greek speaker closer to the time who knew the term meant a sabbath rest, but could refer to more than the weekly Sabbath.

And the SDA commentary also looked at the parallels, focusing on the verbal form used in the LXX, and its usage. They list Leviticus 23:32 for instance which is regarding the Day of Atonement, rather than the weekly Sabbath.

As I said from the beginning, I was not using any of them as religious authorities, but to discuss the usage of the term. It is not a technical term limited to reference to the weekly Sabbath. And the context does not fit reference to the weekly Sabbath.
No, you were trying to let other people speak for EGW and than tried to make the case that EGW doesn't agree with you as if I am against my own denomination, when she said no such thing or did the SDA commentary. The only one who did was your outside source.

You said:
And the context does not fit reference to the weekly Sabbath.
Its literally what it says in the Greek, word for word,

Original Word: σαββατισμός
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Pronunciation: sab-bat-is-mos'
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
sabbatismos: Sabbath rest
Definition: Sabbath rest
Meaning:
a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

And the context doesn't fit? Are you reading the same passage?

Heb 4:6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Heb 4:7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
Which is quoting David

Today, if you will hear His voice:
8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion,
As in the day of [d]trial in the wilderness,

9 When your fathers tested Me;
They tried Me, though they saw My work.
10 For forty years I was [e]grieved with that generation,
And said, ‘It is a people who go astray in their hearts,
And they do not know My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”

And what did they rebel in the wilderness from?

Eze 20:13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.
Which caused them not to enter their rest into the Promise Land
Eze 20:15 So I also raised My hand in an oath to them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, ‘flowing with milk and honey,’ the glory of all lands, 16 because they despised My judgments and did not walk in My statutes, but profaned My Sabbaths; for their heart went after their idols.

So this passage is warning us that there is a rest we are to enter by faith, the Israelites in the wilderness never entered because of their rebellion and disobedience and God called them out for profaning the Sabbath and we are not to follow in the same example of disobedience and you claim its not about keeping the Sabbath for the people of God??

Heb 4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

The Bible cannot be more clear on this matter. We need to enter into our Promise Land and just like the Israelites were told they would receive their land full of milk and honey if they loved God with all their heart, might and soul, they would receive their inheritance. Sadly many didn't they went after their idols and replaced the voice of God with another- God's rest Heb 4:4 with their way instead.

While people may try to convince themselves we can ignore this warning instead of hearing the voice of God from our own harden heart of rebellion and sin and repent and change our mind and turn to God's rest, because in His rest there is no rebellion to Him or His commandments including the 4th commandment Isa 48:18

We still have to enter into our rest yet to come, will we follow in the same example of disobedience?

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who [g]do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Waggoner is an odd choice from your perspective, since he was a semi-Arian, anti-Trinitarian, held pantheistic views, gave up the investigative judgment, and engaged in spiritual wifery, despite Ellen White's warning against it, and by his own statement could not be in the Adventist ministry anymore.

For instance, from a work written shortly before his death:



That question puzzled me for many years;
for I had been so thoroughly indoctrinated with
the idea of a 2300-year period ending in 1844,
that it never occurred to me to doubt it. Indeed,
I never did doubt it for a moment; but one day
the light dawned upon me, and I saw that the
period had no foundation whatever, and then of
course I simply dropped it.



Note the last sentence. He says "the rest that remains is, therefore, the coming inheritance and kingdom of the saints."

He points out, as does the author of Hebrews, that God began His ongoing rest from creation on the 7th day. His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

The Sabbath is a once-a-week reminder of God's rest at Creation. But the rest of grace/faith that is entered into, which is entered "today" is an ongoing rest, joining God in His rest from works, by resting from our works.
It points to the ultimate rest in Christ, it doesn't dismantle the rest God gives us now on the seventh day, you are adding things he never said. He related it to both the Sabbath currently and future rest in Christ- God rested on the seventh day Exo20:11, those who enter His rest also cease from their works a Heb 4:10 as God did on the seventh day. Heb4:4 Exo20:11 Gen2:3
 
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tall73

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No, you were trying to let other people speak for EGW and than tried to make the case that EGW doesn't agree with you, when she said no such thing and than used an non-Adventist to try to make your case.

I quoted from the SDA Bible Commentary article, written before I was born, who referenced Ellen White. Obviously, Ellen White's comments spoke for themselves, which is why they quoted them. And you have not cited her saying your view regarding the passage. If it exists, I would be interested in seeing it.

And as to Origin and Chrysostom, why can I not use actual usage to make my case, from a Non-Adventist? You are basing it on the meaning of the word. Usage is how they determine the meaning of words.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I quoted from the SDA Bible Commentary article, written before I was born, who referenced Ellen White. Obviously, Ellen White's comments spoke for themselves, which is why they quoted them. And you have not cited her saying your view regarding the passage. If it exists, I would be interested in seeing it.

And as to Origin and Chrysostom, why can I not use actual usage to make my case, from a Non-Adventist? You are basing it on the meaning of the word. Usage is how they determine the meaning of words.
The commentary you posted does not say its not about the Sabbath there are two rest being spoken of in Hebrews 4- the rest Joshua led the Israelites was connected to the rest of the promise land Jos 1:13 not the Sabbath rest, you tried to make your case by using a non-Adventist commentary and then trying to make it seem its what the Adventist commentary said when they didn't and than claimed I was against the SDA commentary. Its really quite telling.

And thus the mountain from which the words of benediction were spoken came to be known as the mount of blessing. But it was not upon Gerizim that the words were spoken which have come as a benediction to a sinning and sorrowing world. Israel fell short of the high ideal which had been set before her. Another than Joshua must guide His people to the true rest of faith. No longer is Gerizim known as the mount of the Beatitudes, but that unnamed mountain beside the Lake of Gennesaret, where Jesus spoke the words of blessing to His disciples and the multitude.
Ellen White--Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing Chapter 1
 
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It points to the ultimate rest in Christ, it doesn't dismantle the rest God gives us now on the seventh day, you are adding things he never said.

I didn't say that Waggoner was trying to dismantle the Sabbath! For that matter, I already said this text in Hebrews is not trying to dismantle the Sabbath. It is simply discussing another topic.

It may be best to slow down and read the commentaries and my posts more slowly. You first thought you agreed with the SDA Bible Commentary, then realized you didn't.

You seem to think I was citing Chrysostom and Origin to say something about Ellen White, which I wasn't.

When you are talking about the usage of a term that only occurs once in Scripture, and basing your argument on that, then you are going to get into technical details, such as the verbal form usage referenced by the SDA commentary, or usage outside of Scripture, such as in Origin, or commentary on the meaning by those closer to the time by Chrysostom.

But none of this is a conspiracy to cause division. I don't think the Sabbath was done away with at all, let alone by Hebrews 4. So please take a moment to read more what was said.

In any case I am out of time for now.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I didn't say that Waggoner was trying to dismantle the Sabbath! For that matter, I already said this text in Hebrews is not trying to dismantle the Sabbath. It is simply discussing another topic.

It may be best to slow down and read the commentaries and my posts more slowly. You first thought you agreed with the SDA Bible Commentary, then realized you didn't.

You seem to think I was citing Chrysostom and Origin to say something about Ellen White, which I wasn't.

When you are talking about the usage of a term that only occurs once in Scripture, and basing your argument on that, then you are going to get into technical details, such as the verbal form usage referenced by the SDA commentary, or usage outside of Scripture, such as in Origin, or commentary on the meaning by those closer to the time by Chrysostom.

But none of this is a conspiracy to cause division. I don't think the Sabbath was done away with at all, let alone by Hebrews 4. So please take a moment to read more what was said.

In any case I am out of time for now.
I read it and saw what you were trying to do.
 
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