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Sabbath Keeping and The Gospel
- Thread starter Mercy Shown
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in His anger toward those who rebelled and wandered for 40 years.
It says "SOME" did not enter. and "it remains for SOME" to enter.
Heb 11 says many in the OT were not under God's anger but rather were approved by God
Heb 11
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants as the stars of heaven in number, and innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.
13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.
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Of course God knew, that‘a different than God making the decisions as if God made Adam and Eve choose to sin.
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Thank you for your reply.
I think we agree that Jesus cannot lie.
Mark 13:1-2
As He was going out of the temple, one of His disciples *said to Him, “Teacher, look! What wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!” 2 And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”
Mark 13:30-31
Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
Matthew 5:17-18
“Do not presume that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill (finish/complete the Law of Moses). 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!
We know that the circumcision laws, dietary laws, new moon laws, etc., were required in the Law of Moses. Because these First Covenant laws are not required in the new covenant, we know that this "heaven and earth" has already passed away.
It seems to me that the "heaven and earth" that Jesus prophesied about was actually the "temple in Jerusalem." This temple, with its Levitical priesthood and its animal sacrifice religious system, passed away in 70 AD. In the 30s AD, Jesus prophesied that "heaven and earth" would pass away in "this generation," and it did.
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A dead person cannot accept or respond to the Holy SPirit. "The dead know not anything..." We must be made alive first.
People who love God, keep his commandments but you cannot love God by keeping His commandments, instead you will become pharisaical. In other words love produces obedience but obedience does not produce love.
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You assume to much. Stick to what you know and do not state your conjectures as fact. Slapping labels on people while ignoring the very words of scripture that may run counter to your traditions is not a good idea. Let God be true and everyman a liar.
This has no bearing on being made alive unless you again are assuming. But assuming often involves adding to the scriptures. Neither of these texts refute that a man must be made alive to in order to hear and in order to be drawn. It is simple, they can't. What Paul wrote still stands and it butts against our human egos that want to take some credit at least for our salvation.
Even your own prophetess stated "It is impossible for us, of ourselves, to escape from the pit of sin in which we are sunken. Our hearts are evil, and we cannot change them. “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.” 'The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.'"
A dead person cannot hear a knock so they must be made alive.
Even those who do not accept had to be made alive. Only a living being can make a choice. Trying to grant the dead a choice to live again would only fall on dead ears.
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pasifika
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All promises God made is yes in Christ Jesus. God promise children for Abraham so it's God's promise and God's decision, and God will make sure it.
If Man choose to follow God (without God's choice) then it'll never reach the goal. More of a temporary acts.
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you are barking up the wrong tree.
All my posts argue for God as "first cause"
does not matter what you call the condition. The supernatural work of God is there in Rev 3 and the person has the ability to respond one way or the other according to the text.
The "many" of Matt 7 refuse.
In fact in John 1 "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not".
Even the hyper Calvinist view states that the John 6 "supernatural drawing" of God enables all the "choice" that depravity disables
So then "I will DRAW ALL mankind unto Me" John 12:32 makes that entire argument moot even by hyperCalvinist limits..
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- Nov 21, 2008
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1 John 5;3 "THIS IS the LOVE of God that we kEEP His Commandments"
John 14:15 "if you LOVE me KEEP My Commandments"
Ex 20:6 "LOVE God and KEEP His commandments"
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Which commandments?
For Israel not for the Christian. Context is important.
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"Honor your father and mother is the first commandment WITH A PROMISE" Eph 6:1-2.
that is only true within the UNIT of TEN
so the TEN are "included" as all Christian Confessions of Faith affirm.
just stating the obvious "again'
Yep... it is "still a sin" to take God's name in vain
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And all of the 10 commandments are now repeated into Christ’s two love commandments. The law is no longer binding on the Christian. We walk by the Spirit NOT by the letter of the law.
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Certainly God is able to take the message to anyone He wants, through whatever means He wants. But I was responding to your statement regarding sitting in Moses' seat. Scripture scrolls were not as common as Bibles today, and you could hear the word of God in the synagogue. So Christians, including Gentiles, continued to go there until they were put out, even if at times there might be some tension, as the synagogue would not completely embrace Christian doctrine.
Right, and my point was that the text doesn't say he actually did bring anyone in, but that they supposed it.
This doesn't follow. You haven't even shown that they were in the temple, though as noted, there was a court of Gentiles for them if they were. It was alleged they were, and assumed they were:
Acts 21:27-29
27 Now when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews from Asia, seeing him in the temple, stirred up the whole crowd and laid hands on him, 28 crying out, “Men of Israel, help! This is the man who teaches all men everywhere against the people, the law, and this place; and furthermore he also brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place.” 29 (For they had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian with him in the city, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.) (NKJV)
It isn't clear from the text that Paul brought them to the temple at all. In fact Luke appears to be noting it was not true, but that they assumed that. And right after you say that you post about the synagogue. But this was in Antioch in Pisidia, not the temple in Jerusalem. And of course he didn't have to drag them there, because there were already Gentiles there at the synagogue.
Acts 13:14
14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down. (NKJV)
Please note that you said you agreed, for later when you seem to think I didn't answer.
I will agree to the extent that faith expresses itself in works. We are justified by grace, through faith. Then that faith does work out in the life.
And we should not deceive ourselves.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. (NKJV)
Those who are in Christ are washed, sancitifed, justified, and we should not continue in sin, refusing to repent.
But of course, the whole debate in this thread is whether Gentile believers had to keep Israelite appointed times. And that is not just one passage to look at, but multiple.
You have gone to another context now. But there is nothing here that says they are to start observing Israelite appointed times.
Acts 26:19-20
19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. (NKJV)
I didn't.
you asked: is this Yoke here the Laws of God, or the commandments and religious traditions of man?
I answered:
Acts 15:5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” 6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.” (NKJV)
In context Peter appears to be indicating the Pharisee contingent is speaking of justification by law, and he notes that God already accepted the Gentiles, giving them the Spirit, and purified their hearts by faith. The Jewish believers too are saved by faith.
Peter rejected the two claims of the pharisee contingent among the believers:
Acts 15:1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.
5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (NKJV)
Peter, James, etc. rejected salvation by works. The law was not too difficult to keep, as I quoted from Scripture. But they had all sinned, and so salvation could only be by grace through faith, rather than through law keeping.
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I quoted from the law already indicating it was not a sin to not take a vow, or a sin to take one. But you are not quoting all that was said.
Acts 21:18-25
18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.” (NKJV)
Paul was not required to offer a vow, nor were the Gentiles. But Paul was demonstrating he did keep the law, in light of false accusations he was turning the Jews in the diaspora from Moses.
And it was regarding this latter point that they say concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they observe no such thing.
This is hearkening back to
Acts 15:24-29
24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. (NKJV)
Paul was accused falsely by some that he was turning Jews in the diaspora away from Moses. But it was not true. The vow was to demonstrate he observed the law.
But the Gentiles were not required to be circumcised and to keep the law. The requirements were the same as before, years earlier.
Right, but notice, the specific accuasation:
21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses
The allegation was that he was turning Jews in the diaspora from Moses. He wasn't. But they already agreed the Gentiles were not required to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.
Certainly there were judaizers among the Christians, who Paul had to address in his letters. I think the text does not specify whether some of these zealous for the law Christians were persecuting Paul
They elders didn't accuse them of sins either. They simply said they have been told this, and we know it is not true. And they proposed it be demonstrated that Paul was not opposed to the law.
You tried to get ahead of it because you knew you were not taking them for what they say.
And of course it is not just this text. As the discussion throughout this thread shows Gentile Christians were not to be judged regarding Israelite appointed times.
It is the words of James and the elders, and agreed upon by the Holy Spirit regarding the requirements. Your discussing Jewish DNA doesn't change what was said. The Jewish believers kept the law of Moses, and the Gentiles were not required to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.
Of course not. Because the letters to the Gentiles repeatedly indicate to walk in the Spirit, against which there is no law, and put to death the works of the flesh.
But that doesn't mean they had to go to Jerusalem for pilgrimage feasts, etc. They were not required to keep that law.
Meanwhile, Paul, etc. was in a hurry to get back for it.
I believe that Jesus condemned the tradition of the Pharisees which set aside God's command.
But I also believe that the council and the Holy Spirit clearly said the part you don't care for.
Or you could read what the council said and the Holy Spirit agreed with, because the Pharisees didn't carry the day.
The council of the church agreed upon by the Holy Spirit is a big deal. Sorry you don't care for it. But of course it is not the only place where these things come up.
Gentiles were not required to be circumcised and keep the whole law of Moses. And they were not to be judged on appointed times, per Col. 2. and Romans 14.
I keep pointing out the decision of the council, regardless of what the Pharisees pushed. The decision of the council was the Gentiles didn't have to be circumcised and keep the whole law of Moses.
IF you would like to actually discuss, you still have the option of explaining your view further--which you seemed reluctant to do.
I am familiar with the various passages about the Pharsees. I am asking what you claim Gentiles are supposed to do.
Have you booked your flights to Israel for the pilgrim feasts?
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After being made alive.
They all resisted the life put in them by God and returned to death.
You need to take this up with Hyper-Calvinists since it has nothing to do with the concepts being discussed. You ether believe what Paul wrote in eph 2 or you don't.
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My point is, that today we have the same Oracles of God in our own homes that they had, but didn't believe, therefore "we" now sit in Moses seat and this same Jesus is still my Lord. The implication of your adopted religious philosophy is that the private interpretation of one sentence promoted by the religions of this world God placed me in, makes Void Jesus' Words, and erases Paul's Epistles he wrote to God's Church later on. And yet, in discussion after discussion, this is the foundation of your teaching.
I don't believe, based on what is written in Scriptures, that a popular interpretation promoted by the religions of this world God placed me in, the very people Jesus said to "take heed" of, of one sentence in Acts 15, relegates "ANY" the Sayings of Christ "of the Bible" as irrelevant, vain deceit, or not worthy of my honor, much less all of them.
But clearly you have adopted this belief. That is the contention that exists between us, and the foundation of our debate.
And according to the Same Oracles of God whose "Every Word" Jesus Himself instructs men to "live by", the mainstream religions of the world God placed Paul in just like the rebellious and uncircumcised heart people in the Exodus that surrounded Caleb and Joshua, also refused to embrace the Gospel of Christ, and created their own god, with their own commandments, judgments and statutes, refusing to submit to God. No doubt they could select a scripture, separate it from all other scriptures, and justify their disobedience. This is the course of this world. But as we can see, the Pharisees in Paul's time, just as the rebellious Israelites, were shown the Gospel of Christ, but didn't believe it,
A Gospel that clearly defined for all, God's Love towards men, both born with and without Jewish DNA, or "Every One", who would deny themselves and "Turn to Him" as did the Gentiles did in Acts.
Is. 56: 6 Also the sons of the stranger, (Non-Jew) that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, "every one" that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
But men, are free to join with this world's religions, just as Eve was free to join the other voices in the world God placed her in. And it is true that "the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat", and if a person separated this one verse from the rest of the Bible, and then created philosophy based solely on these Words, then both Adam and Eve could justify their disobedience to God. They could just keep posting God's Command in Gen 2, and accuse other of not believing the Holy scriptures.
Of course, that is stupid right. Foolish and Sophomoric. I know you would see right through this, and could easily show that if a person simply considered more or all of God's Commands, they would find the clear deception promoted by this religious voice, that professed to know God and even quoted "some" of God's Word, that existed in the world God placed Adam and Eve in. And would find that if fact, man was not to eat of "Every Tree" in the garden.
And yet "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, have adopted the exact same philosophy of religious voices that exist in the world God placed us in, voices who profess to know God, who even quotes "some" of God's Word, concerning this one sentence in Acts 15.
My hope is that you might consider more or all of Jesus and the Apostles teaching, like I'm sure you did in the religious philosophy the preachers in the garden with Eve were promoting.
For me, it was easy to see her error, but not so easy to see mine, even when it was the same error.
the Greek word for "Brought" is "agó", it means "To lead, bring, carry, guide".
But this issue isn't worth contention in my view. It is my understanding that by the time Paul came into the picture, there were many Gentiles that heard about Jesus and His teaching and were seeking the God of Abraham by hearing His Word being spoken in the Jews Synagogues. Cornelius may have been an example of that very thing. I believe Paul openly encouraged the Gentiles to seek God's Righteousness, and Yield themselves to God. And that the Holy Scriptures were trustworthy for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works", not for just men born of Jewish DNA, but for all men.
And truly those men who contended with Paul were not honest men.
But did Paul "bring" a Gentile into the Temple? Who cares really. God doesn't dwell in temples made of wood and stone, regardless of whether a Jew or Gentile builds it, in my view. I was foolish to even engage in an argument concerning such a thing, to my shame. And for that I am sorry.
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You made the statement;
- You didn't answer the question about what exactly they expected Gentiles to keep.
"Jesus tells you the answer to this question in Matt. 23:1-4. As I pointed out in earlier post, the Apostles also understood that the Gentiles would grow in the knowledge of God by hearing the Holy Scriptures that Paul taught both Jew and Gentile were trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."."
Matt. 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, "that observe and do"; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they (Pharisees, not God or Moses) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and "lay them on men's shoulders"; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
The philosophy that 1 sentence spoken in act's 15 makes the Word's of the Lord's Christ here void, irrelevant, or a vain deceit, though perhaps popular in the religions of the world God placed us in, Is not the Gospel of Christ, as defined by the Holy Scriptures.
Can you really not see the point the Scriptures are making here?
And concerning the Pharisees trying to be Justified by the "works of the Law", I'm not sure if you are just trolling me or what, but lets post it again.
This is true, the Pharisees were a religion that despised God's Judgments, full well "rejected God's Commandments" by walking in their own religious traditions. They taught for doctrines the Commandments of men, "not God". They created their own high days, polluted God's Sabbaths and were, according to Jesus , "children of the devil". And yet every week they would gather together and offer to God the Blood of an unblemished, innocent life, as per the Law, to justify their disobedience. But as God teaches through Isaiah (Is. 1:1-20) and through Paul, "No Flesh is Justified by works of the LAW".
Is this not the "yoke" the pharisees were placing on the necks of the Gentiles that the Disciples and their fathers before them couldn't bear?
And today, if a religion that exists in the world God placed me in, calls Jesus Lord, Lord, prophesies in His Name, casts our devils in His Name, creates massive religious businesses all in His Name, but they despise God's Judgments, full well reject God's commandments by their own religious traditions, rejects God's sabbaths and creates their own high days instead,, created and promotes images of God in the likeness of man, and yet every week they offer to God the BLOOD of the PERFECT Lamb of God, "as per the Law", to justify them of their willful disobedience, are they justified by "works of the Law"?
Are they not just a different version of the Pharisees religion, who believes? satan believes too, Yes? Doesn't Jesus speak to this very thing in Matt. 7?
So then aren't you and I, just like Eve, Noah, Abraham, Caleb, David, Daniel, Shadrack, Zacharias, Simeon, Paul, James, Cornelius, and even Jesus Himself, all placed in a world by God in which other religious voices exist, that profess to know God, even quoting some of God's Word, but promote disobedience to God? And wasn't "EVERY ONE" of these examples, except the last ONE, snared by this voice? And wasn't EVERY ONE of these examples, except the Last One, called out of this deception, to repent and turn to God and turn away from the religious voice that exists in the world God placed us in, to as Jesus teaches, "Go and Sin no more"?
And now I am to just forget and reject all of these things because of this world's religions interpretation of this one sentence in Act's 15?
I really hope you might reconsider the philosophy you have adopted on this matter. But it is your choice.
No Sir, that's not the debate in Acts 15 at all. The debate was, are the Gentiles to be converted to the "Jews religion" they "said" was founded on the Law of Moses, but the Apostles knew it wasn't. (Because they believed Jesus and the Prophets) Or should they "Yield themselves" to God and their bodies as instruments of Righteousness unto God? And the Apostles turned the Gentiles away from the "Jews religion" and towards the Law of Moses, that Jesus taught them to observe and do.
17 That the residue of men "might seek after the Lord", and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. (Not seek after the Jews religion, that rejected the "Lord")
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. (And HE sent Moses to show them to us, as well as them)
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (Law of Moses) and from fornication, (Law of Moses) and from things strangled, (Law of Moses) and from blood. (Law of Moses)
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. (By those who sit in Moses seat)
So the Apostles settled the debate about whether a man should adopt the religions of the world God placed them in, (In their case, the Pharisees, in our case, other religions) or should they present their bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is their reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be transformed by the renewing of their mind, that they may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Trusting the Holy scriptures for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
Clearly the Apostles promoted the latter.
The philosophy that verse 20 wipes out the entire Gospel of Christ, or any Word Jesus Spoke, or any of Paul's teaching throughout his Epistles, might be popular in the religious sects and businesses which existed in this world that God placed us in, but the Holy Scriptures doesn't teach this philosophy at all, at least not according to all that is written.
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