Sabbath Keeping and The Gospel

Studyman · 2026-02-21T10:05:38-0600

Mercy Shown said:
You can't love him unless you have been made alive. None of these things you mention are possible unless we are saved first.

That is a popular philosophy in this world, but I don't think it aligns with Scriptures at all. Passover is only the beginning of God's Salvation. Without Feasts of Unleavened bread, Passover meant nothing. What do you think placing the Blood, which is the LIFE of the Lamb, on the Lintel and two door posts represent, if not the Life of Jesus?

And Paul specifically pointed out that even though the Israelites engaged in the Passover, Many still fell in the wilderness, except for Caleb and Joshua, who exhibited the "LIFE" of the Lamb Spiritually speaking, as it is written:

Num. 14: 22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; 23 Surely they "shall not" see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:

24 But my servant Caleb, because he had "another spirit with him", and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.

Wasn't that the Spirit of the Lamb of God?

So no, Israel wasn't "Saved" by engaging in the Passover, as God Himself, along with Paul points out.

Ex. 16: 4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

Joshua and Caleb were proved and saved, the rest fell in the wilderness. Paul points this out to the Body of Christ in 1 Cor. 10. If the Body of Christ were already saved, there would have been no need for any of Paul's Epistles.

Jan001 · 2026-02-21T10:11:04-0600

For SDA members:

Jesus Christ prophesied that heaven and earth would pass away.

Do all SDA members believe that this prophecy has already been fulfilled, or are they still waiting for its fulfillment?

pasifika · 2026-02-21T11:33:38-0600

BobRyan said:
God's choice:
"God IS NOT WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2 Pet 3
"if I be lifted up I will draw ALL mankind unto Me" John 12:32
"God so Loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son" John 3;16
"He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only, but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2

And All those whom God foreknew will come to repentance, Nothing is impossible for God.

God knows those who are His..2Tim

pasifika · 2026-02-21T11:45:24-0600

SabbathBlessings said:
So God created Adam and Eve so they would disobey and sin so they could be cursed and die?

Of course its choices- He gives everyone a measure of faith and draws everyone to Him- its a matter of how we choose to respond.

Josh 24:15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Life is about choices, the devil wants to trick us to believe we are a slave to sin and can’t overcome when Jesus said come to Me, I will give you rest, I can make you free.

What I see is people want to claim the blessings Jesus gives while being a slave to the devil, instead of holding on to Christ and giving up sin Pro28:13 through His power and be His servant. He wants to bless us Isa 56:2, the devil wants to take away our blessing, He calls us to join ourselves to Him and serve Him Isa 56:6 so does the other spirit, but he does it so he can destroy us, Jesus wants us to serve Him to give us life. Rev11:18 Rev22:3 Rev22:14 Its about choices who do we serve, which voice will we listen to and obey.

God knew Adam and Eve will disobey Him, Hence why Christ was before ALL things so to reconcile them back to God through Him..

Without God you can do nothing..

We are by "nature" children of wrath..

BobRyan · 2026-02-21T14:50:01-0600

weary2025 said:
The jews in the synagogues were circumcised too

Indeed they were. But the gentiles in the synagogues in Acts 13 and Acts 18 that were "hearing the gospel preached every Sabbath" Acts 18:4, were not circumcised.

BobRyan · 2026-02-21T14:52:30-0600

weary2025 said:
So who decides how you observe Sabbath? Where are the rules?

God is the author of scripture
God decides.

Ex 20:8-11 a day of rest from secular labor, devoted to God
Lev 23:3-3 a day of assembly, of "holy convocation", worship the one true God
Is 58:13 a day to avoid secular activity
Ex 20:11 the same seventh day as Gen 2:2-3, a memorial of Christ's finished work of creation

BobRyan · 2026-02-21T15:03:41-0600

Mercy Shown said:
My response to this point is to ask the question, how does a dead man have faith? Paul describes our initial condition as "dead in ur sins and tresspasses." So to have faith as a work one must be alive. So how is life achieved by a dead man?

Assume for the sake of argument that we are not all Calvinists and do not pour the same meaning into Paul's words that you do)

Rom 10 "Faith comes from HEARING and hearing by the Word of God"
John 12:32 "if I be lifted up, I will DRAW ALL mankind unto Me'

God supernaturally draws ALL unto Him... All do not choose to accept.

Rev 3 "I STAND at the door and KNOCK" -- not "I crash down the door and enter". God is "first cause" for everyone
Rev 3 "IF ANYONE hears My voice AND OPENS" Our choice
Rev 3 "I WILL come in AND fellowship with him" - God's response

Mercy Shown said:
It can't be done unless an outside force or power does it.

The outside force"DRAWS ALL mankind unto Me" John 12:32
The outside force 'STANDS at the door and KNOCKs"
the outside force "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"

that is the supernatural first cause , the supernatural drawing that enables choice for all.

but not all accept, so then not all repent and are then born again.

Jan001 · 2026-02-21T15:06:25-0600

BobRyan said:
Indeed they were. But the gentiles in the synagogues in Acts 13 and Acts 18 that were "hearing the gospel preached every Sabbath" Acts 18:4, were not circumcised.

Yes, the Gentiles who were present in the synagogues were circumcised. First covenant Jews did not associate with uncircumcised men. It would have made them unclean. Jews didn't even associate with Samaritans. John 4:7-9

Acts 13:43
And after the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts followed Paul and Barnabas, who, as they spoke with them, were persuading them to continue in the grace of God.

Paul circumcised Timothy so that he could accompany Paul into the synagogues.

Acts 16:3
Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him, so he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those places; for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

Acts 11:2
And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, the Jewish believers took issue with him, 3 saying, “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.”

Under the First Covenant, Jews maintained a clear separation from uncircumcised Gentiles, seeing them as outside the covenant community.

Under the New Covenant, the Council of Jerusalem ruled that circumcision was not necessary for Gentile Christian believers.

BobRyan · 2026-02-21T15:06:41-0600

Mercy Shown said:
You can't love him unless you have been made alive.

true.

One must accept / respond to supernatural work of the Holy Spirit first

Mercy Shown said:
None of these things you mention are possible unless we are saved first.

Indeed. Obedience follows.

If you LOVE ME (so then you have accepted the John 16 convicting of the Holy Spirit and are born again)
KEEP My Commandments

BobRyan · 2026-02-21T15:14:28-0600

Jan001 said:
Yes, they were circumcised. First covenant Jews did not associate with uncircumcised men.

Not true. (BTW if gentiles were circumcised they were counted as full brethren with the native born as the Law of Moses stated)

Acts 13 call these uncircumcised gentiles in the Synagogues "God fearers" those who fear God but are not Jews, are not circumcised

Acts 13:
26 “Brethren, sons of Abraham’s family, and those among you who fear God

In Acts 13, "God-fearers" are
Gentiles who attached themselves to Judaism, worshipping the God of Israel and attending synagogue services without undergoing full conversion (specifically circumcision).

They were monotheists drawn to the high moral standards of the Torah, acting as a crucial bridge for the spread of Christianity among non-Jews.
Key details regarding "God-fearers" in Acts 13:16, 26:

Distinct Group: Paul explicitly distinguishes them from "men of Israel" (ethnic Jews) by addressing them separately, yet acknowledges their devotion.
Synagogue Presence: They were common in Diaspora Judaism, participating in Sabbath services and following Jewish moral laws.
Distinction from Proselytes: Unlike full proselytes, male God-fearers did not take the final step of circumcision, often due to cultural stigmas.
"Gateways" to the Gospel: Because they were already familiar with the scriptures, they were receptive to the message of the Messiah preached by Paul.

They represent a significant, intermediate group in the early church's expansion, often described as pious and devout.

Jan001 said:
Paul circumcised Timothy so that he could accompany Paul into the synagogues.

Acts 16:3
Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him, so he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those places; for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

Acts 16 makes no reference at all to the Synagogues.

Jan001 said:
Under the First Covenant, Jews maintained a clear separation from uncircumcised Gentiles, seeing them as outside the covenant community.

No text of the old testament said Jews could not worship with or associate with gentiles

BobRyan · 2026-02-21T15:16:35-0600

pasifika said:
God knew Adam and Eve will disobey Him,

God knew everything from all eternity.

pasifika said:
Hence why Christ was before ALL things so to reconcile them back to God through Him..

Without God you can do nothing..

yet the wicked can engage in rebellion apart from being a saved born again saint.
And God does not make the wicked sin as James 1 points out

pasifika said:
We are by "nature" children of wrath..

Indeed. All need salvation

BobRyan · 2026-02-21T15:19:35-0600

Jan001 said:
For SDA members:

Jesus Christ prophesied that heaven and earth would pass away.

Do all SDA members believe that this prophecy has already been fulfilled, or are they still waiting for its fulfillment?

heaven and earth are still here last time I looked outside
Rev 21:1-2 points to a time of the new heavens and new earth, that happens after the rapture event of Rev 19 and 1 Thess 4:13-18,
after the literal 1000 years of Rev 20 that follows,
and after the great white throne judgment event of Rev 20 is ended.

all of that is still future

BobRyan · 2026-02-21T15:22:04-0600

Jan001 said:
Yes, the Gentiles who were present in the synagogues were circumcised. First covenant Jews did not associate with uncircumcised men. It would have made them unclean. Jews didn't even associate with Samaritans. John 4:7-9

Acts 13:43
And after the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts followed Paul and Barnabas, who, as they spoke with them, were persuading them to continue in the grace of God.

Paul circumcised Timothy so that he could accompany Paul into the synagogues.

Acts 16:3
Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him, so he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those places; for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

Acts 11:2
And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, the Jewish believers took issue with him, 3 saying, “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.”

Under the First Covenant, Jews maintained a clear separation from uncircumcised Gentiles, seeing them as outside the covenant community.

Under the New Covenant, the Council of Jerusalem ruled that circumcision was not necessary for Gentile Christian believers.

The guys complaining in Acts 11 are not unchristian Jews, they are the Christian Jews complaining.

But they did not complain that Peter went into a synagogue that had gentiles rather that he went into the HOME of a gentile. (which also was not against anything in actual scripture, it was against the made up stuff that Christ condemned in Mark 7:7-13 even BEFORE the cross)

Jan001 · 2026-02-21T15:26:15-0600

BobRyan said:
Not true. (BTW if gentiles were circumcised they were counted as full brethren with the native born as the Law of Moses stated)

Acts 13 call these uncircumcised gentiles in the Synagogues "God fearers" those who fear God but are not Jews, are not circumcised

Acts 13:
26 “Brethren, sons of Abraham’s family, and those among you who fear God

In Acts 13, "God-fearers" are
Gentiles who attached themselves to Judaism, worshipping the God of Israel and attending synagogue services without undergoing full conversion (specifically circumcision).

They were monotheists drawn to the high moral standards of the Torah, acting as a crucial bridge for the spread of Christianity among non-Jews.
Key details regarding "God-fearers" in Acts 13:16, 26:

Distinct Group: Paul explicitly distinguishes them from "men of Israel" (ethnic Jews) by addressing them separately, yet acknowledges their devotion.

Synagogue Presence: They were common in Diaspora Judaism, participating in Sabbath services and following Jewish moral laws.

Distinction from Proselytes: Unlike full proselytes, male God-fearers did not take the final step of circumcision, often due to cultural stigmas.

"Gateways" to the Gospel: Because they were already familiar with the scriptures, they were receptive to the message of the Messiah preached by Paul.

They represent a significant, intermediate group in the early church's expansion, often described as pious and devout.

Acts 16 makes no reference at all to the Synagogues.

No text of the old testament said Jews could not worship with or associate with gentiles

Well, we do disagree.

If uncircumcised Timothy would have been allowed to associate with Jews without being circumcised, Paul would not have circumcised him "because of the Jews."

Acts 13:43
And after the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts followed Paul and Barnabas, who, as they spoke with them, were persuading them to continue in the grace of God.

The Gentiles who were preached to in the synagogues were devout converts to Judaism. They were not Christian believers. These Gentiles were circumcised Gentile converts who practiced Judaism.

BobRyan · 2026-02-21T15:27:20-0600

weary2025 said:
Hebrews said that Moses Sabbath cannot give true rest. It says that God denied that rest to them.

that is a misreading of Heb 4.

Nothing in Heb 4 says that the Sabbath that Moses and Elijah participated in , in the OT did not have real Sabbath rest.
In fact Moses and Elijah stand in glory WITH CHRIST in Matt 17 , even before the cross even happens.

Jan001 · 2026-02-21T15:27:55-0600

What do SDAs believe about the "heaven and earth" that Jesus prophesied would pass away?

weary2025 · 2026-02-21T15:29:51-0600

BobRyan said:
that is a misreading of Heb 4.

Nothing in Heb 4 says that the Sabbath that Moses and Elijah participated in , in the OT did not have real Sabbath rest.
In fact Moses and Elijah stand in glory WITH CHRIST in Matt 17 , even before the cross even happens.

The scripture said that God withheld his rest from them. So how were they resting?

BobRyan · 2026-02-21T15:34:07-0600

Jan001 said:
Well, we do disagree.

If uncircumcised Timothy would have been allowed to associate with Jews without being circumcised

He could "associate", what he could not do is participate in Passover or go into certain areas of the Temple.

He could however enter the Synagogues and associate with Jews just as Christ and His disciples associated with gentiles in the gospels such as going into the house of the gentile centurion .

Gentiles came to bow down before the infant Christ in Bethlehem

Isaiah calls the temple "the house of prayer for ALL nations"

Gentiles came to speak with Christ just before His crucifixion. John 12:20-22

Jan001 said:
, Paul would not have circumcised him "because of the Jews."

Acts 13:43
And after the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts followed Paul and Barnabas, who, as they spoke with them, were persuading them to continue in the grace of God.

Jan001 said:
The Gentiles who were preached to in the synagogues were devout converts to Judaism

The Law of Moses required that circumcised gentiles be brethren equal with "the native born".
not merely "god fearers" as already pointed out

Jan001 said:
. They were not Christian believers.

that is true, Acts 13 Paul was not meeting with Christians

Jan001 said:
These Gentiles were circumcised Gentile converts who practiced Judaism.

BobRyan · 2026-02-21T15:34:37-0600

Jan001 said:
What do SDAs believe about the "heaven and earth" that Jesus prophesied would pass away?

They pass away in Rev 21:1-2

See #672

BobRyan · 2026-02-21T15:42:32-0600

BobRyan said:

Nothing in Heb 4 says that the Sabbath that Moses and Elijah participated in , in the OT did not have real Sabbath rest.
In fact Moses and Elijah stand in glory WITH CHRIST in Matt 17 , even before the cross even happens.

weary2025 said:
The scripture said that God withheld his rest from them. So how were they resting?

Heb 4 does not say they had no Sabbath or that Moses and Elijah standing with Christ in Matt 17 had not experienced rest, nor does it say that all the OT saints of Heb 11 never had a Sabbath rest.

Heb 4
2 For indeed we have had good news (GOSPEL) preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“As I swore in My wrath,
They shall not enter My rest,”
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this passage, “They shall not enter My rest.” 6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

"remains for some to enter"
and the ones who did not enter were in rebellion after hearing the same gospel according to the text. He is not talking about the men of faith that he praises in Heb 11.

The list in HEB 11 are all OT saints and instead of saying God was angry with them , it says "they PLEASED GOD" and "without faith it is impossible to please God"

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