Hundreds of psychiatrists diagnosed Trump as having Malignant NPD. If the Administration got sick of him, who enacts the 25th? When? How?

probinson said:

It is NOT, however, the opinion of the psychiatrist who wrote the criteria that define NPD:

Fevered media speculation about Donald Trump’s psychological motivations and psychiatric diagnosis has recently encouraged mental health professionals to disregard the usual ethical constraints against diagnosing public figures at a distance. They have sponsored several petitions and a Feb. 14 letter to The New York Times suggesting that Mr. Trump is incapable, on psychiatric grounds, of serving as president.​

Most amateur diagnosticians have mislabeled President Trump with the diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder. I wrote the criteria that define this disorder, and Mr. Trump doesn’t meet them. He may be a world-class narcissist, but this doesn’t make him mentally ill, because he does not suffer from the distress and impairment required to diagnose mental disorder.​

...​

Bad behavior is rarely a sign of mental illness, and the mentally ill behave badly only rarely. Psychiatric name-calling is a misguided way of countering Mr. Trump’s attack on democracy. He can, and should, be appropriately denounced for his ignorance, incompetence, impulsivity and pursuit of dictatorial powers.​

https://archive.is/20170217210537/h...s-mental-state.html#selection-2123.0-2123.313​

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HEre's the thing about the word "disorder". It's a fascinating consideration in this context.

There are many (arguably almost all) diagnoses in the DSM that are on a spectrum OR, that people may suffer from but have found a way to navitage life. It doesn't mean the person isn't THAT WAY, it just means it's not adversely affecting their life sufficiently. You will note that this guy is more than willing to call Trump a "world class narcissist"), he's just hesitant to call him mentally ill because he hasn't had to face the consequences of his mistreatment of others that could lead to distress and impairment and his social circles (member his child raping buddies?) may not exactly be bound by the same standards of how western culture operates (ie...raping children is bad and if you do that, you should be held accountable).


Including the word "disorder" as part of a diagnoses suggests that the affliction is causing disorder and disfunction in that person's life. Arguably, with the number of sychophants around him, applying the word "disorder" in Trump's circumstance may simply not be possible. Trump exists within his own social circle bubble and while many people outside of that bubble find his NP overwhelming and anti-social (because it is), there is a group of people who are benefiting immensely from his being there and so his anti-social tendencies are NOT having any kind of negative impact on himself.
And if he's not experiencing any negative impact on himself, how could his life EVER be considered disordered?


I completely expect you to "well this is teh guy that wrote the criteria" and dismiss what i've said here. But it's not an unreasonable thought.

Put Trump into a social situation where he would have to be responsible for his negative actions, and you'd see some serious disfunction.

Remember his response to was he responsible for the government actions and he said "No"? And none of his cypophants held him responsible for saying that? Nobody has held him responsible for any misspeak, misactions and misinformation he ever says. Honestly. Please, Find a supporter who has; or someone in his cabinet.

Postvieww said:

You are just jealous that Trump is actually concerned with how other countries used tariffs for their benefit while the previous resident probably didn’t even know or care about trade imbalances against the US.

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Thank you for ascribing mine own feelings for me while guessing what Biden’s knowledge of the matter was.

Postvieww said:

Nice diversion. I believe the point was foreign investment in business snd commerce.

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This is that, “foreign investment in a business that the incumbent President has a stake in”. You’re certainly allowed to minimize this, but why would you?

Postvieww said:

I bet that hurt!

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Not at all, zero for 2 on your Assess Pommer’s emotions survey.

Postvieww said:

Maybe not to you.

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Nations let old grievances fall by the wayside but didn’t have anything on “paper”?
Yawn.

rambot said:

I completely expect you to "well this is teh guy that wrote the criteria" and dismiss what i've said here.

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Good call.

The guy who wrote the criteria for the disorder says Trump doesn't fit the criteria for the disorder and further says that claiming he does is akin to "psychiatric name-calling". I'd have to agree.

I mean, given these two options, who would be more qualified to say whether someone has a disorder or not?

1) Psychiatrist who wrote the criteria defining the disorder in question
2) Random person on Internet forum

Returning for a moment to the article, here is what happens when one equates Trump to people that legitimately have this disorder.

probinson said:

Good call.

The guy who wrote the criteria for the disorder says Trump doesn't fit the criteria for the disorder and further says that claiming he does is akin to "psychiatric name-calling". I'd have to agree.

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I would disagree with your understanding of events. He doesn't fit the category of a disorder. But he is DEFINITELY clinical, classic, narcissist diagnoses.

probinson said:

I mean, given these two options, who would be more qualified to say whether someone has a disorder or not?

1) Psychiatrist who wrote the criteria defining the disorder in question
2) Random person on Internet forum

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To be fair...Waegler defined a narcissistic personality in the 1920s. And then Heinz Kohut developed the concept of NPD.

What did Frances even do, this guy? Did he just type NPD into the drafts?

probinson said:

Returning for a moment to the article, here is what happens when one equates Trump to people that legitimately have this disorder.

It is a stigmatizing insult to the mentally ill (who are mostly well behaved and well meaning) to be lumped with Mr. Trump (who is neither).​

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I found this interview with Dr. Frances.
Of course, Dr. Frances opinion is that Trump is not "disordered", but he certain is a narcissist. He states:

Well, Trump is absolutely a world-class narcissist. He has every criteria met except for two. In addition to having the features of being grandiose, unempathic, self-involved, selfish, all the things that go into being Trump, you have to have distress or impairment, significant distress or impairment.

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...and as I SAID that impairment is implied by the word "disorder"....NOT the "narcissist personality" part.
Dr Frances states he doesn't have NPD because:
"because he does not suffer from the distress and impairment required to diagnose mental disorder."
..essentially, he's missing the "D".

He continues:

Trump is a man who causes immense distress in others, but doesn't seem to experience it very much himself. Although he's created tremendous impairment for our country and for his business colleagues, he, himself, has been very well rewarded in politics and also in business for being a narcissist.

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...

.. But I think the issue with Trump is that he's just an incompetent, blustering, deceitful conman. No one has ever been less suited for the presidency of the United States, and we shouldn't confuse his bad behavior with mental illness.

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I'm confused by this; especially when mental illnesses are diagnosed based on bad behaviours.


What I do find surprising is his actual, nuanced position:

To lump Trump with the mentally ill is a tremendous insult to them. It stigmatizes them. Most people who are mentally ill are well meaning and well behaved, and really fine people. Trump is none of those. So that when we confuse mental illness with bad behavior, we, first of all, insult the mentally ill, and secondly, we underestimate just how evil Trump is and how dangerous.

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What's weird is when I was around people with significant mental health afflictions, his characterization of "they were mostly well behaved and well meaning" doesn't necessarily match my experience and simplifies things.

Misdiagnosing Trump: Doc-to-Doc with Allen Frances, MD
Very interesting interview and the good stuff we're referring to is right at the start. Generally though, I would posit that this guy's bias against Trump is so large, I'm not sure I trust his motivations in presenting his argument.

rambot said:

What did Frances even do, this guy?

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Well, according to the article I linked, "this guy" has done quite a lot.

The bottom line is, the premise of this thread is that the 25th amendment should be invoked based on the "diagnosis" of NPD. But that's been roundly discredited. One can act narcissistically without having a mental disorder. And that's really the point. As has been pointed out by others, the office of the US Presidency BEGS for a narcissist. I mean, you really do have to think quite highly of yourself to think you're the answer to all the world's problems. But that doesn't equate to a "disorder" in which one can be disqualified via the 25th amendment.

If you want to say that Trump is a narcissist, you'll get no argument from me. But if you want to diagnose him with NPD, I'm going to have to go with the psychiatrist who says he doesn't meet the criteria for that disorder.

probinson said:

Well, according to the article I linked, "this guy" has done quite a lot.

​

ALLEN FRANCES​

​

Coronado, Calif.​

​

The writer, professor emeritus of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Duke University Medical College, was chairman of the task force that wrote the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV (D.S.M.-IV).​

The bottom line is, the premise of this thread is that the 25th amendment should be invoked based on the "diagnosis" of NPD. But that's been roundly discredited.

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While I think the term "roundly discredited" is a bit of bluster, I am certainly willing to concede that Trump rarely appears to be disordered due to his NP.

probinson said:

One can act narcissistically without having a mental disorder. And that's really the point.

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That's true but what can count as "disorder" and what cannot appears to be a very difficult thing to pindown. Essentially, with NPD, there is a bit of a problem in that many heads of industry and powerful people are very NP...many with NPD. And then, to work backwards, some folks will argue "Well, that helps them get to where they are" (as you argue).

I'd argue that and NP ruining other people's lives around them while never having to accept or feel the burden of responsibility, should be given a "D" if they disorder the lives of many people around them. Ultimately, my arguement is that NP people can ruin relationships and very, very often, create abusive and unhealthy relationships.

Whether there is a "d" there or not.

Frances has a great deal of problems with the current DSM (even though he was on the Task Force for it); some of those problems I agree with. But I think the idea of what teh "D" in "NPD" looks like is worthy of further conversations among psychologists.

probinson said:

As has been pointed out by others, the office of the US Presidency BEGS for a narcissist. I mean, you really do have to think quite highly of yourself to think you're the answer to all the world's problems. But that doesn't equate to a "disorder" in which one can be disqualified via the 25th amendment.

If you want to say that Trump is a narcissist, you'll get no argument from me. But if you want to diagnose him with NPD, I'm going to have to go with the psychiatrist who says he doesn't meet the criteria for that disorder.

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instead of many others that do?

rambot said:

instead of many others that do?

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Let's not forget that NOT ONE of these "many others that do" have personally examined Trump, and are therefore are in highly questionable ethical territory. It's long been acknowledged that diagnosing from a distance is unethical, yet these "many others" had no qualms about violating that ethical principle in the service of a PAC agenda. I would question the objectivity of every single one of them.

probinson said:

Let's not forget that NOT ONE of these "many others that do" have personally examined Trump, and are therefore are in highly questionable ethical territory.

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It's not hard to diagnose the NP and he's spent enough time in the public circle that there is plenty of evidence of him being NP.

probinson said:

It's long been acknowledged that diagnosing from a distance is unethical, yet these "many others" had no qualms about violating that ethical principle in the service of a PAC agenda.

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Sure.
And I can see his clear NP tendencies and see the disorder he has caused many others. Sure these 200 were unethical in this instance.

They are correct, but it was unethical.

probinson said:

I would question the objectivity of every single one of them.

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Before you even took the time to interview them and get understanding of how they came to that decision? Ethically or otherwise?

rambot said:

It's not hard to diagnose the NP and he's spent enough time in the public circle that there is plenty of evidence of him being NP.

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Again, one can act narcissistically and not be mentally ill.

rambot said:

Sure.
And I can see his clear NP tendencies and see the disorder he has caused many others. Sure these 200 were unethical in this instance.

They are correct, but it was unethical.

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They are not correct. Their diagnosis is incorrect. Trump is a world-class narcissist, but he does not meet the criteria for a mental diagnosis of NPD according to the psychiatrist responsible for writing the criteria for the diagnosis.

rambot said:

Before you even took the time to interview them and get understanding of how they came to that decision? Ethically or otherwise?

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If someone Is willing to violate their integrity and act unethically for political purposes, then I have no confidence at all that their political preferences won't taint their opinions and diagnoses.

probinson said:

Again, one can act narcissistically and not be mentally ill.



They are not correct. Their diagnosis is incorrect.

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According to one psychiatrist.

probinson said:

If someone Is willing to violate their integrity and act unethically for political purposes, then I have no confidence at all that their political preferences won't taint their opinions and diagnoses.

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Lol.

You must be having a really really hard time with politics right now.

rambot said:

According to one psychiatrist.

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One ethical psychiatrist vs. hundreds of unethical psychiatrists, NONE of whom have examined the subject.

It's no secret that the "one psychiatrist" has great disdain for Trump, yet he does not "diagnose" him with NPD, and makes it clear that Trump does not fit the criteria for that diagnosis . He also makes clear that doing so not only violates ethical concerns, but also marginalizes people who actually do have mental illness. That, apparently, does not matter to the hundreds of psychiatrists who were just trying to offer a narrative to their preferred PAC, which failed in its objective.

rambot said:

Lol.

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Yes, it's hilarious when professionals surrender their integrity for politics. Thankfully, I believe the majority of medical professionals care about ethics and integrity, which makes it super simple to disregaard the vocal minority that willingly choose to surrender their professional integrity for their politics.

rambot said:

You must be having a really really hard time with politics right now.

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Not really. I actually rather appreciate when people show me who they are.

*Sigh* I personally have nothing against Trump, I just think we need fresh new faces in office.

We need to give the younger generations a chance to run for office.

The thought of having new talent excites me for some reason.

Trump is getting old. Meaning I am getting tired of hearing about him.

JacquelineDeane55 said:

We need to give the younger generations a chance to run for office.

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The boomers have no intention of leaving office in any way other than feet first.

probinson said:

Not really. I actually rather appreciate when people show me who they are.

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But if they show you who they are, why do you keep directing criticism away from them?

rambot said:

But if they show you who they are, why do you keep directing criticism away from them?

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I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about here. Who do you think I am directing criticism away from?

eclipsenow said:

There is a huge difference between an over exuberance of self-confidence and the actual personality disorder of NPD

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Right, but under our system, not much can be done about the situation.

eclipsenow said:

Before celebrating the victory dance that was won years ago?

He submitted facts. You just reply with counter assertions. There's a big difference between asserting your opinion and actually contributing facts towards an argument that might one day support the wild and wacky belief that somehow Trump was cheated out of 2020

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You are really not interested in facts . If you change your mind try watching this video or one of the many videos from Georgia board of elections hearings. There you will find some facts.