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How Long have Humans Lived on Earth?

o_mlly

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Bad assumption. In fact, information can be produced with no design at all.
Every new mutation in a population increases information.
Nope. Mutations can only degrade the existing information. If I pseudo-randomly change the position of the letters and spaces in your reply then all I get is gibberish.
And as the Church points out, this is consistent with evolutionary theory. Couldn't be any other way, really.
Nope. You misunderstand the teaching as it relates to macorevolution theory. And, you do not acknowledge the Church's acknowledgment that information in the cell supports another way to explain the diversity of life, i.e., Intelligent Design.

That's not what the Church teaches...
? It's right there for you to read. Macroevolution is not possible.

Thus, for example, the DNA of the chromosomes contains the information necessary for matter to be organized according to what is typical of a certain species or individual.
 
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The Barbarian

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Bad assumption. In fact, information can be produced with no design at all.
Every new mutation in a population increases information.

Nope. Mutations can only degrade the existing information.
That's a testable assumption. Let's look at a simple case.
Two alleles for a given gene locus in a population. Each with frequency of 0.5. Since the information for this gene would be the negative sum of each frequency multiplied by the log of each frequency, the information for that gene would be about 0.301. Now let's suppose a new mutation occurs, and eventually all three alleles have a frequency of about 0.333 each. (I used these to make the numbers simpler for you; if you like, I can use different frequencies) Now, the information for that gene is about 0.477.

The method uses Shannon's equation. It's also used to allow the internet to work efficiently, and to permit communication of spacecraft billions of kilometers from Earth over very low-powered transmitters.

And as the Church points out, this is consistent with evolutionary theory. Couldn't be any other way, really.
Well, let me show you again what the Church teaches:
INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION
COMMUNION AND STEWARDSHIP:
Human Persons Created in the Image of God
*
While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5-4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution.

You misunderstand the teaching as it relates to macorevolution theory.
Thus, for example, the DNA of the chromosomes contains the information necessary for matter to be organized according to what is typical of a certain species or individual.
Yep. The biological species concept. As I said, you still can't figure out what the Church has to say about it.
"Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism."

That's actually more than evolutionary theory says. It's a conclusion from genetics, although (as I showed you), it's entirely consistent with evolutionary theory.

At this point, you're just unable to accept this teaching of the Catholic Church, and are repeating the same errors over and over. Unless you have something new to bring up, it seems you're done here.
 
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John Bauer

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Two alleles for a given gene locus in a population. Each with frequency of 0.5. Since the information for this gene would be the sum of each frequency multiplied by the log of each frequency, the information for that gene would be about 0.301. Now let's suppose a new mutation occurs, and eventually all three alleles have a frequency of about 0.333 each. (I used these to make the numbers simpler for you; if you like, I can use different frequencies) Now, the information for that gene is about 0.477.

Correct me if I am wrong, but your calculation appears to measure allelic frequency uncertainty at that locus (Shannon entropy), not functional or semantic information in the gene.
 
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o_mlly

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That's a testable assumption. Let's look at a simple case.
Two alleles for a given gene locus in a population. Each with frequency of 0.5. Since the information for this gene would be the sum of each frequency multiplied by the log of each frequency, the information for that gene would be about 0.301. Now let's suppose a new mutation occurs, and eventually all three alleles have a frequency of about 0.333 each. (I used these to make the numbers simpler for you; if you like, I can use different frequencies) Now, the information for that gene is about 0.477.
Nope. You lurch to the usual evo's deflection of explaining micro events (with which no one disagrees) when the question is to explain macro events.

Shannon Entropy (SE) explains microevolution events but offers nothing to explain macroevolution events, novel body plans. SE primarily measures uncertainty and information in data rather than biological processes. New body plans require not only an explanation of mere complexity but of specified complexity. And so, we're back to the First Principle of Sufficient Reason -- one can't give what one doesn't already possess. Try again.
And as the Church points out, this is consistent with evolutionary theory. Couldn't be any other way, really.
We know you have exhausted your talking points when you constantly repeat yourself. All your arguments have been "asked and answered". Do let us know when you have something new.

I suggest you also check your parish's adult catechesis formation offerings. You should enroll.
 
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The Barbarian

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That's a testable assumption. Let's look at a simple case.
Two alleles for a given gene locus in a population. Each with frequency of 0.5. Since the information for this gene would be the sum of each frequency multiplied by the log of each frequency, the information for that gene would be about 0.301. Now let's suppose a new mutation occurs, and eventually all three alleles have a frequency of about 0.333 each. (I used these to make the numbers simpler for you; if you like, I can use different frequencies) Now, the information for that gene is about 0.477.

The method uses Shannon's equation. It's also used to allow the internet to work efficiently, and to permit communication of spacecraft billions of kilometers from Earth over very low-powered transmitters.

Yep. No point in denial. That's how new information forms. You're probably confused about the meaning of "information." Learn about it here:

You lurch to the usual evo's deflection of explaining micro events (with which no one disagrees) when the question is to explain macro events.
You're still a bit confused. New information does not require speciation. It merely requires an increased uncertainty as to the message (in this case the specific genome of a member of the population). For example, if the allele is fixed, an there is only one for a specific gene, then the information for that gene is 0.0. If you sample an individual, you will have no more knowledge after the sample then you had before. If there are two alleles, each (for example) with a frequency of 0.5, then the information will be about 0.301, because sampling an example will show you which of the two alleles was present in that individual.

Shannon Entropy (SE) explains microevolution events but offers nothing to explain macroevolution events, novel body plans.
That's why the information story is such a loser for creationists. It really means nothing at all in terms of evolutionary processes. In fact, macroevolutionary changes can happen by a loss of information in the population genome. Would you like to learn how that works?

And you bring up another creationist misconception. Evolution produces nothing de novo; it always involves a modification of something already present. You can't show me even one structure in animals that did not involve modification of something already existing. There's a good reason for that.

And as the Church points out, this is consistent with evolutionary theory. Couldn't be any other way, really. But you were already shown this. You've exhausted your talking points when you keep repeating the same refuted claims over and over. But it doesn't hurt to show you again. As I said, repetition is sometimes useful in teaching difficult concepts.

I think your "no novel structures" claim is a new one, though. Thanks for bringing that up. I'm sure everyone will be interested to see what "novel structure" you present as not being evolved from something else. What do you have?

I suggest you also check your parish's adult catechesis formation offerings. You should enroll.
When we started our current parish, my wife was asked to be the parish religious education director. I was drafted into teaching a class. And yes, the training was enlightening. The parish has grown, and we've both stepped down from teaching CCD. But we used the same Catechism every other parish does.
 
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The Barbarian

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Correct me if I am wrong, but your calculation appears to measure allelic frequency uncertainty at that locus (Shannon entropy), not functional or semantic information in the gene.
Right. Information is merely the uncertainty of the message, that is how much more will you know after opening the message. So, for example, the GULO gene in primates is now broken and non-functional. It does nothing. But it still contains information. For example, one can determine from which genus of primate the gene was obtained.
1771685903265.png

The information is no longer functional information. But it's still information.
 
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River Jordan

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Mutations can only degrade the existing information.
What an utterly ridiculous and ignorant empty claim.

Claim CB102:​

Mutations are random noise; they do not add information. Evolution cannot cause an increase in information.

Response:​

  1. It is hard to understand how anyone could make this claim, since anything mutations can do, mutations can undo. Some mutations add information to a genome; some subtract it. Creationists get by with this claim only by leaving the term "information" undefined, impossibly vague, or constantly shifting. By any reasonable definition, increases in information have been observed to evolve. We have observed the evolution of
    • increased genetic variety in a population (Lenski 1995; Lenski et al. 1991)
    • increased genetic material (Alves et al. 2001; Brown et al. 1998; Hughes and Friedman 2003; Lynch and Conery 2000; Ohta 2003)
    • novel genetic material (Knox et al. 1996; Park et al. 1996)
    • novel genetically-regulated abilities (Prijambada et al. 1995)
    If these do not qualify as information, then nothing about information is relevant to evolution in the first place.
  1. Alves, M. J., M. M. Coelho and M. J. Collares-Pereira, 2001. Evolution in action through hybridisation and polyploidy in an Iberian freshwater fish: a genetic review. Genetica 111(1-3): 375-385.
  2. Hughes, A. L. and R. Friedman, 2003. Parallel evolution by gene duplication in the genomes of two unicellular fungi. Genome Research 13(5): 794-799.
  3. Knox, J. R., P. C. Moews and J.-M. Frere, 1996. Molecular evolution of bacterial beta-lactam resistance. Chemistry and Biology 3: 937-947.
  4. Lenski, R. E., 1995. Evolution in experimental populations of bacteria. In: Population Genetics of Bacteria, Society for General Microbiology, Symposium 52, S. Baumberg et al., eds., Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, pp. 193-215.
  5. Lenski, R. E., M. R. Rose, S. C. Simpson and S. C. Tadler, 1991. Long-term experimental evolution in Escherichia coli. I. Adaptation and divergence during 2,000 generations. American Naturalist 138: 1315-1341.
  6. Lynch, M. and J. S. Conery, 2000. The evolutionary fate and consequences of duplicate genes. Science 290: 1151-1155. See also Pennisi, E., 2000. Twinned genes live life in the fast lane. Science 290: 1065-1066.
  7. Park, I.-S., C.-H. Lin and C. T. Walsh, 1996. Gain of D-alanyl-D-lactate or D-lactyl-D-alanine synthetase activities in three active-site mutants of the Escherichia coli D-alanyl-D-alanine ligase B. Biochemistry 35: 10464-10471.
  8. Prijambada, I. D., S. Negoro, T. Yomo and I. Urabe, 1995. Emergence of nylon oligomer degradation enzymes in Pseudomonas aeruginosa PAO through experimental evolution. Applied and Environmental Microbiology 61(5): 2020-2022.
 
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o_mlly

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That's how new information forms. You're probably confused about the meaning of "information." Learn about it here:
Nothing of import there. Macroevoluton requires new information, not a reshuffling of the deck, to form novel body plans

Read here and see how molecular biology shows the tree of lie to be false:
Or here:
Or here:
New information does not require speciation.
You have it backwards. Speciation as in different kinds requires new information.
Evolution produces nothing de novo;
A breakthrough ...?
You can't show me even one structure in animals that did not involve modification of something already existing.
... maybe not. Check the logic in your statement. Simply because one creature has similarity with other creatures does not show that the one creature is not different than the others. Evo's overly focus on similarity instead of transformation.
And as the Church points out, this is consistent with evolutionary theory.
Nope. As you've been told but refuse to accept the Church accepts microevolution, as does everybody else, but offers skepticism on macroevolution.
I think your "no novel structures" claim is a new one, though. Thanks for bringing that up. I'm sure everyone will be interested to see what "novel structure" you present as not being evolved from something else. What do you have?
? I didn't write about "no novel structures".
When we started our current parish, my wife was asked to be the parish religious education director. I was drafted into teaching a class. And yes, the training was enlightening. The parish has grown, and we've both stepped down from teaching CCD. But we used the same Catechism every other parish does.
Appealing to your authority as a CCD teacher? OK. My wife and I also led CCD classes at our parish. In addition, I taught in our RCIA program. After completing advanced theology courses at Loyola University, my bishop certified me as a Master Catechist and I led OCIA programs in the federal prison system.
 
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o_mlly

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What an utterly ridiculous and ignorant empty claim.
I often wondered why evo's are so mean-spirited. I have a good idea now -- from the playbook of your atheist proponent: “It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).”
 
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River Jordan

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I often wondered why evo's are so mean-spirited. I have a good idea now -- from the playbook of your atheist proponent: “It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).”
I said nothing about you. I demonstrated how your claim isn't just wrong but is ridiculously wrong. If you have no rebuttal to the information I posted then we're done here. Your claim is wrong, end of story.
 
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River Jordan

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I'll hold you to that promise.
But I bet you will never surrender your ridiculously mistaken claim that mutations only degrade existing information even though it's been shown to be very wrong.
 
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The Barbarian

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That's how new information forms. You're probably confused about the meaning of "information."
Macroevoluton requires new information,
Actually, as you have just seen, any new mutation in a population increases the information in that population. I showed you the numbers.
not a reshuffling of the deck, to form novel body plans
I asked you to show us even one novel body plan that could not have evolved. You failed to show us one. What should we conclude from that.

Speciation as in different kinds requires new information.
And since even most YE creationists now admit that the evolution of new species is a fact, you've pretty much given up the farm. And, it's possible for a reduction in genetic information to produce speciation. Would you like to learn about that?

Shannon Entropy (SE) explains microevolution events but offers nothing to explain macroevolution events, novel body plans.
Show us a "novel body plan" for which there is no evidence for it evolving. What do you have?

I didn't write about "no novel structures".
Body plan. Show us one. Or will this be another claim you won't support?
Appealing to your authority as a CCD teacher?
Actually, that was decades ago. And you should probably know that just being a CCD teacher isn't authority as the Church considers authority.
Only Scripture, Tradition, and the Magesterium are authoritative.

After completing advanced theology courses at Loyola University, my bishop certified me as a Master Catechist and I led OCIA programs in the federal prison system.
Then this shouldn't be news to you, should it? For now, just show us that novel body plan that couldn't have evolved from others, and we'll see what the evidence shows. You're on.
 
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o_mlly

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The Barbarian

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I often wondered why evo's are so mean-spirited. I have a good idea now -- from the playbook of your atheist proponent: “It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).”
Evolution is not a theory in crisis. It is not teetering on the verge of collapse. It has not failed as a scientific explanation. There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well.

I say these things not because I'm crazy or because I've "converted" to evolution. I say these things because they are true. I'm motivated this morning by reading yet another clueless, well-meaning person pompously declaring that evolution is a failure. People who say that are either unacquainted with the inner workings of science or unacquainted with the evidence for evolution. (Technically, they could also be deluded or lying, but that seems rather uncharitable to say. Oops.)

YE creationist Dr. Todd Wood

Dr. Wood is a little more Christian than the atheist, but then, I would expect him to be.
 
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The Barbarian

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That's how new information forms. You're probably confused about the meaning of "information."
Macroevoluton requires new information,
Actually, as you have just seen, any new mutation in a population increases the information in that population. I showed you the numbers.
not a reshuffling of the deck, to form novel body plans
I asked you to show us even one novel body plan that could not have evolved. You failed to show us one. What should we conclude from that.

Speciation as in different kinds requires new information.
And since even most YE creationists now admit that the evolution of new species is a fact, you've pretty much given up the farm. And, it's possible for a reduction in genetic information to produce speciation. Would you like to learn about that?

Shannon Entropy (SE) explains microevolution events but offers nothing to explain macroevolution events, novel body plans.
Show us a "novel body plan" for which there is no evidence for it evolving. What do you have?

I didn't write about "no novel structures".
Body plan. Show us one. Or will this be another claim you won't support?
Appealing to your authority as a CCD teacher?
Actually, that was decades ago. And you should probably know that just being a CCD teacher isn't authority as the Church considers authority.
Only Scripture, Tradition, and the Magesterium are authoritative.

After completing advanced theology courses at Loyola University, my bishop certified me as a Master Catechist and I led OCIA programs in the federal prison system.
Then this shouldn't be news to you, should it? For now, just show us that novel body plan that couldn't have evolved from others, and we'll see what the evidence shows. You're on.


How about 7?
Let's take a look at one of them first... arthropods.

Lobopodia, commonly known as lobopodians, are an extinct group of soft-bodied panarthropods that represent an evolutionary grade intermediate between annelid-like worms and more derived arthropods, characterized by their elongate, annulated bodies and paired, unjointed lobopod limbs lacking hard exoskeletons.[1] These creatures, often bearing sclerites, spines, or plates for defense, are primarily known from exceptional fossil deposits and are considered stem-group panarthropods ancestral to modern onychophorans (velvet worms), tardigrades (water bears), and arthropods.

Chordates? Turns out that many non-chordate bilaterans have an axochord which is organized as a notochord. Still yet to be confirmed, but again, there's evidence for the evolution of this feature as well.

Brachiopods?
Continuing research in the current century has brought on a new exciting perspective on the affinities of tommotiids: they are now being regarded as stem-group brachiopods. One crucial fossil linking the tommotiids with brachiopods is Micrina. Analysis on the microscopic inner structure of the phosphatic shell has shown similarities to the organophosphatic brachiopods, one of them being tubes - that must have housed setae in life - perforating the shell layers. Setigerous tubes have also been found in early brachiopods, like the Paterinates for example. A later publication (Holmer et al. 2008) asserted that Micrina was a bivalved animal not unlike a brachiopod, having only two armor plates in life. Tommotiid sclerites can be classified by their shape, and most had two types of them: the sellate sclerite and the mitral sclerite. In this model Micrina had one of each. The sellate and mitral sclerites of tommotiids would end up becoming dorsal(brachial) and ventral(pedicle) valves respectively.

Annelids? Precambrian ancestors
Nature 17 January 2020

Ultrastructure of Ediacaran cloudinids suggests diverse taphonomic histories and affinities with non-biomineralized annelids​

Ctenophores?


Evol Dev
2011 Sep-Oct;13(5):408-14.
Eoandromeda and the origin of Ctenophora

Abstract
The Ediacaran fossil Eoandromeda octobrachiata had a high conical body with eight arms in helicospiral arrangement along the flanks. The arms carried transverse bands proposed to be homologous to ctenophore ctenes (comb plates). Eoandromeda is interpreted as an early stem-group ctenophore, characterized by the synapomorphies ctenes, comb rows, and octoradial symmetry but lacking crown-group synapomorphies such as tentacles, statoliths, polar fields, and biradial symmetry. It probably had a pelagic mode of life. The early appearance in the fossil record of octoradial ctenophores is most consistent with the Planulozoa hypothesis (Ctenophora is the sister group of Cnidaria + Bilateria) of metazoan phylogeny.


Eldonoiaida?
Anatomical evidence shows the Ambulocaria to be ancestral to them and to deuterostomes, including echinoderms and chordates:

Barbarian reminds:
Only Scripture, Tradition, and the Magesterium are authoritative.

I only had to say it twice and you got it.
 
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AaronClaricus

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How about 7?

View attachment 376787


Good. You're paying attention.
These 7 body plans are modifications of a more generalized Bilateria body plan from genera such as Proarticulata and before that frondomorphs. Proarticulata have incomplete segmentation consistent with predictions that segmentation was a long evolutionary process. Frondomorphs have incomplete bilateral symmetry consistent with the prediction that bilateral symmetry evolved over a long time. It took about the same time for animals to evolve from semi bilateral to articulated segments as it did for stem group mammals to diverge into humans, whales, pangolins and bats.


We don't have species to species transitional fossils but we do know this epoch(ediacaran) and genera(frondomorphs and later bilateria) to be the source of most animals. There's still so much to study from known materials. We have fossils with organs from this period but no high resolution CT scans of 98% of these things. There's still so much more to dig up too.


Once diverged from the original general form none of the newly evolved genera can turn back time. They become more and more specialized versions of their new genera. All while the environment their ancestors lived in dies out with older more generalized forms of life. So it's a one time thing.
 
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