my eclectic view of futurism

Douggg said:

The text of Luke 21 is not missing any details of where Jesus was speaking in Luke 21. Luke 21 is a parallel discourse to the mount of Olives discourse of Matthew 24, Mark 13 given later after Jesus and the disciples left the temple.

Luke 21:
1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.

2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.

3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:

4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

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It's not a parallel discourse, it is one of three accounts of the Olivet Discourse along with Matthew 24-25 and Mark 13.

Do you think that Mark 12:37-44 describes the same event as Luke 20:45-Luke 21:4? Yes or no?

Spiritual Jew said:

Do you think that Mark 12:37-44 describes the same event as Luke 20:45-Luke 21:4? Yes or no?

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Of course Mark 12:37-44 and Luke 20:45-Luke 21:4 are about Jesus commenting on the poor widow's contribution being great.

Mark 12:35 proves that Mark 12:37-44 was Jesus speaking in the temple. Do you acknowledge that Jesus was speaking in the temple in Mark 12:37-44 ?

As also, Luke 20:45-Luke 21:4, Jesus was speaking in the temple. As does the rest of Luke 21:5-36.

Mark:13:1-3, Jesus and the disciples left the temple and arrived on the mount of Olives.
Mark 13:4-37 Jesus spoke the mount of Olives discourse.

Matthew 24::1-3, Jesus and the disciples left the temple and arrived upon the mount of Olives.
Matthew 24:4-Matthew 25:35, Jesus spoke the mount of Olive discourse.

Luke 21:1-36, Jesus spoke in the temple, parallel to what he would speak about later on the mount of Olives, but in more detail on the mount of Olives.

Douggg said:

Of course Mark 12:37-44 and Luke 20:45-Luke 21:4 are about Jesus commenting on the poor widow's contribution being great.

Mark 12:35 proves that Mark 12:37-44 was Jesus speaking in the temple. Do you acknowledge that Jesus was speaking in the temple in Mark 12:37-44 ?

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Yes. of course I do. So, what does Mark 13:1-2, which directly follows Mark 12:37-44, indicate that happened next after Mark 12:37-44 and the parallel passage of Luke 20:45-Luke 21:4?

Mark 13:1 Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!” 2 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

According to Mark 13:1, Jesus went out of the temple after what was recorded in Mark 12:37-44 and Luke 20:45-Luke 21:4 occurred. This is what I've been trying to show you, but up to this point you didn't answer my question about whether or not you think that Mark 12:37-44 and Luke 20:45-Luke 21:4 are accounts of the same event. Since Mark 13:1-2 makes it clear that Jesus went out of the temple after that, then you should understand that's where Jesus was in Luke 21:5-6. Just outside the temple.

Compare Mark 13:1-2 above to this passage...

Luke 21:5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 6 “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

Since you acknowledge that the passage of Mark 12:37-44, which comes just before Mark 13:1-2, is the same event as Luke 20:45-Luke 21:4, which obviously come just before Luke 21:5-6, then you should also acknowledge that Mark 13:1-2 and Luke 21:5-6 record the same event. Which shows that Jesus and the disciples He was talking to were outside the temple in Luke 21:5-6. And then the next verse in Mark 13 shows where they were after that, which was on the Mount of Olives.

Mark 13:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”

Which means Mark 13:3-4 is parallel to this verse...

Luke 21:7 So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

Just because Luke didn't indicate where they were when the disciples asked Jesus these questions doesn't mean they were still in the vicinity of the temple. Mark 13:3 makes it clear that they were on the Mount of Olives at this point. And this means that Luke 21:8-36 is parallel to Mark 13:5-37, also. Which means that Mark 13:3-37 and Luke 21:7-36 are both accounts of the Olivet Discourse along with Matthew 24:3-25:46.

Douggg said:

As also, Luke 20:45-Luke 21:4, Jesus was speaking in the temple. As does the rest of Luke 21:5-36.

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Wrong. Mark 12:37-13:37 proves that in Luke 21:5-6 Jesus was speaking outside the temple and in Luke 21:7-36 He was speaking on the Mount of Olives, as I've shown. Case closed. It's your choice to accept the truth I've shown you or not at this point. That's up to you.

Douggg said:

Mark:13:1-3, Jesus and the disciples left the temple and arrived on the mount of Olives.
Mark 13:4-37 Jesus spoke the mount of Olives discourse.

Matthew 24::1-3, Jesus and the disciples left the temple and arrived upon the mount of Olives.
Matthew 24:4-Matthew 25:35, Jesus spoke the mount of Olive discourse.

Luke 21:1-36, Jesus spoke in the temple, parallel to what he would speak about later on the mount of Olives, but in more detail on the mount of Olives.

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You agreed that Mark 12:37-44 is an account of the same thing recorded in Luke 20:45-Luke 21:4. With that being the case, it makes no sense to deny that Mark 13:1-37 is an account of the same thing as Luke 21:5-36. And, it's obvious that Mark 13:1-37 is an account of the same thing as Matthew 24:1-51 as well. So, Luke 21:7-36 is one of the three accounts of the Olivet Discourse along with Mark 13:3-37 and Matthew 24:3-25:46.

Spiritual Jew said:

Since Mark 13:1-2 makes it clear that Jesus went out of the temple after that, then you should understand that's where Jesus was in Luke 21:5-6. Just outside the temple.

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No way was Jesus outside the temple in any of Luke 21.

In Luke 21, Jesus spoke in the temple about topics He would later expand upon after going to overnight on the mount of Olives.

There on the mount of Olives, Jesus expanded on the topics that he had spoken about earlier in the day while in the temple.

Douggg said:

No way was Jesus outside the temple in any of Luke 21.

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It's clear that you are not making any effort to see my argument. Why would you agree that Mark 12:37-44 is an account of the same event as Luke 20:45-Luke 21:4, but then somehow conclude that the verses which follow each passage (Mark 13:1-37, Luke 21:5-36) are not also accounts of the same thing? That makes no sense. If Mark 12:37-44 is an account of the same event as Luke 20:45-Luke 21:4, as you agreed is the case, then it only follows that Mark 13:1-2 is an account of the same thing as Luke 21:5-6, which means that only one time did Jesus say that the temple buildings standing at that time would be destroyed and He said that after leaving the temple, according to Mark 13:1-2. So, we can safely assume that He was outside the temple in Luke 21:5-6.

And, with that, I'm done talking about this. You obviously just believe whatever you want to believe without being willing to honestly consider any opposing arguments and that's just a sad thing to witness. You are not interested in discovering the truth when it comes to end times doctrine.

Spiritual Jew said:

It's clear that you are not making any effort to see my argument. Why would you agree that Mark 12:37-44 is an account of the same event as Luke 20:45-Luke 21:4, but then somehow conclude that the verses which follow each passage (Mark 13:1-37, Luke 21:5-36) are not also accounts of the same thing? That makes no sense. If Mark 12:37-44 is an account of the same event as Luke 20:45-Luke 21:4, as you agreed is the case, then it only follows that Mark 13:1-2 is an account of the same thing as Luke 21:5-6, which means that only one time did Jesus say that the temple buildings standing at that time would be destroyed and He said that after leaving the temple, according to Mark 13:1-2. So, we can safely assume that He was outside the temple in Luke 21:5-6.

And, with that, I'm done talking about this. You obviously just believe whatever you want to believe without being willing to honestly consider any opposing arguments and that's just a sad thing to witness. You are not interested in discovering the truth when it comes to end times doctrine.

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You are evading that Jesus in Luke 21 spoke in the temple, not on the mount of Olives.

The topics that Jesus spoke about while in the temple in Luke 21 were the same as what Jesus later expanded upon while he was later on the mount of Olives in Matthew and Mark.

Douggg said:

You are evading that Jesus in Luke 21 spoke in the temple, not on the mount of Olives.

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LOL. I absolutely am not evading anything. I'm actually putting in the effort to see where Jesus was in each passage starting at the end of Luke 20 and into Luke 21. I'm showing the parallel passage of the same event from Mark 13 where it shows that He was on the mount of Olives. But, you just ignore that because you're not interested in learning the truth of this matter. You'd rather just act as if Mark 13 doesn't exist. You even agreed with me that Mark 12:37-44 is the same event as Luke 20:45-Luke 21:4, but then, somehow, the very next verses in each passage found in Luke 21 and Mark 13 are not about the same event? That's ridiculous.

Luke 21:7-36, Mark 13:3-37 and Matthew 24:3-25:46 are the three accounts of the same Olivet Discourse that Jesus gave on the mount of Olives. This is very clear to anyone who has even a little bit of discernment, especially when you compare each account to one other.

Spiritual Jew said:

You even agreed with me that Mark 12:37-44 is the same event as Luke 20:45-Luke 21:4, but then, somehow, the very next verses in each passage found in Luke 21 and Mark 13 are not about the same event?

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Why are you not saying Mark 12:35-44 ?

35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?

36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

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Luke 20:1-21:36 Jesus taught in the temple.

1 And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,

@Spiritual Jew

Mark 13:1-3 and Matthew 24:1-3 both say that Jesus left the temple and sat on the mount of Olives. But nothing like that is said in Luke 21 because in all of Luke 21 Jesus was speaking in the temple.

Mark 13:
1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Douggg said:

Why are you not saying Mark 12:35-44 ?

35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?

36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

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Luke 20:1-21:36 Jesus taught in the temple.

1 And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,

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The Luke 20:45-Luke 21:4 passage that you agreed is an account of the same event as Mark 12:37-44 doesn't specifically mention that Jesus was in the temple, either. That goes without saying that He was in the temple when what is recorded in Mark 12:37-44 and Luke 20:45-Luke 21:4 occurred. That was never in question. I never claimed that Jesus was not in the temple in Mark 12:37-44, so it doesn't matter if I included Mark 12:35-36 or not.

My point has to do with the verses which follow Mark 12:44 and Luke 21:4 and why you would not see those as being about the same account the way you do with Mark 12:35-44 and Luke 20:45-Luke 21:4. Since Mark 13:1 shows Jesus as leaving the temple after Mark 12:37-44 occurred, then it should be clear that He had left the temple in Luke 21:5 after Luke 20:45-Luke 21:4 occurred as well since they are accounts of the same event.

Douggg said:

@Spiritual Jew

Mark 13:1-3 and Matthew 24:1-3 both say that Jesus left the temple and sat on the mount of Olives. But nothing like that is said in Luke 21 because in all of Luke 21 Jesus was speaking in the temple.

Mark 13:
1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

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You continue to not address the point I've been making relating to Mark 12:37-44 and Luke 20:45-Luke 21:4. You agreed that those passages are about the same event. With that being the case, why would you not also agree that the verses which immediately follow those passages (Mark 13:1-37 and Luke 21:5-36) also refer to the same event? Please address this. Why does it have to be so difficult for you to address this? I've asked you to do so several times now and you continue to not address it. That makes you seem very evasive and that you are not willing to address my point honestly.

Tell me why you don't think the entirety of the following two passages are regarding the exact same event (with the understanding that Jesus is speaking in the temple at the beginning of this event):

Mark 12:37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly. 38 And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, 39 And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: 40 Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation. 41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. 42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. 43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: 44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living. 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! 2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? 5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: 6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Luke 20:45 Then in the audience of all the people he said unto his disciples, 46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts; 47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation. 21:1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury. 2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites. 3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all: 4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had. 5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, 6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? 8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

Notice the obvious similarities in these passages. I highlighted the verses in each passage that you agreed are referring to the same event (Mark 12:37-44 and Luke 20:45-Luke 21:4). Why do you think the verses which follow each passage are not also the same event? There is no basis for believing that. Just because Luke 21:5 does not specifically mention that Jesus went out of the temple at that point is not a valid reason to conclude that Luke 21:5 is not the same event as Mark 13:1. And just because Luke didn't mention where Jesus was when answering the questions asked in Luke 21:7 doesn't mean He wasn't on the Mount of Olives at the time. We can see from Mark 13:3 where He was when those questions were asked of Him. We should expect that each account of an event will not have all of the same details. Many of the details in each passage are identical which shows that the two passages are two accounts of the same event.

Spiritual Jew said:

Just because Luke 21:5 does not specifically mention that Jesus went out of the temple

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Luke 21:1-36 took place while Jesus was speaking in the temple.

Why are you so intent on disproving what the text directly indicates ?

Spiritual Jew said:

Many of the details in each passage are identical which shows that the two passages are two accounts of the same event.

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Many of the details in each passage are identical which shows that the two passages are two accounts of the same event about the same topics.

Luke 21 took place in the temple. Matthew 24, Mark 13 took place on the mount of Olives.

Douggg said:

Luke 21:1-36 took place while Jesus was speaking in the temple.

Why are you so intent on disproving what the text directly indicates ?

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It does not directly indicate that. You assume that just because Luke left out certain details that we can find in Matthew and Mark's accounts. You are making an argument from silence, which is not a valid argument. The account of the same event in Mark 13:1-37 shows that Jesus was outside the temple in Luke 21:5-6 and on the Mount of Olives in Luke 21:7-36. But, you are too afraid to address what I've been showing using the parallel account of Luke 20:45-21:36 found in Mark 12:37-13:37.

Douggg said:

Many of the details in each passage are identical which shows that the two passages are two accounts of the same event about the same topics.

Luke 21 took place in the temple. Matthew 24, Mark 13 took place on the mount of Olives.

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Why won't you even bother addressing what I've shown when comparing Mark 12:35-Mark 13:37 to Luke 20:45-Luke 21:36? Do you not understand that there's no reason for me to take you seriously when you are not honest enough to engage in the discussion about the two passages?

Spiritual Jew said:

It does not directly indicate that

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If the text of Luke 21 does not indicate that Jesus spoke in the temple for all of Luke 21:1-36, then you do a verse by verse explanation using only Luke 21 like I did below (and in my post # 85).

Luke 21:1-2 proves that Jesus was in the temple courtyard.
Luke 21:3-4 Jesus speaking (the text in red) in the courtyard about the significance of the poor widow's donation.
Luke 21: 5 Some persons there in the temple courtyard, commented about the grandeur of the temple complex.
Luke 21:6 Jesus spoke (the text in red) about the coming destruction of the temple.
Luke 21:7 Some persons there in the temple courtyard responded, asking Jesus when the destruction would be.
Luke 21:8-36 Jesus speaking (the text in red) responded to their question of when.

Luke 21:37-38 Luke's commentary to the readers of the gospel by Luke that Jesus in the day time taught in the temple. And when nightfall came, Jesus left the temple to abode overnight in the mount of Olives.

Douggg said:

If the text of Luke 21 does not indicate that Jesus spoke in the temple for all of Luke 21:1-36, then you do a verse by verse explanation using only Luke 21 like I did below (and in my post # 85).

Luke 21:1-2 proves that Jesus was in the temple courtyard.
Luke 21:3-4 Jesus speaking (the text in red) in the courtyard about the significance of the poor widow's donation.
Luke 21: 5 Some persons there in the temple courtyard, commented about the grandeur of the temple complex.
Luke 21:6 Jesus spoke (the text in red) about the coming destruction of the temple.
Luke 21:7 Some persons there in the temple courtyard responded, asking Jesus when the destruction would be.
Luke 21:8-36 Jesus speaking (the text in red) responded to their question of when.

Luke 21:37-38 Luke's commentary to the readers of the gospel by Luke that Jesus in the day time taught in the temple. And when nightfall came, Jesus left the temple to abode overnight in the mount of Olives.

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For goodness sakes, Douggg, why are you so afraid to address my argument? Look at how you just quote one thing I said in my post without addressing anything else that I said. It has to be because you just believe what you want to believe and are afraid to discover that your beliefs are wrong. You obviously have never heard of the idea of interpreting scripture with scripture. When you look at the account of the same thing starting in Mark 12 that goes into Mark 13 that you find starting in Luke 20 that goes into Luke 21, then you can see that Jesus was outside the temple when what is recorded in Mark 13:1-2, Matthew 24:1-2 and Luke 21:5-6 occurred. And that He was on the Mount of Olives when what is recorded in Mark 13:3-37, Matthew 24:3-25:46 and Luke 21:7-36 occurred. But, you are too afraid of the possibility that you're wrong about all of this to even consider what I'm saying. So, I'm done wasting time on this since you have proven that you are not willing to discuss it objectively.