Sabbath Keeping and The Gospel

tall73 said:

Leviticus 23:16​

16 Count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath; then you shall offer a new grain offering to the LORD. (NKJV)​

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Yes, that could be on any day of the week. My question was where in Scripture does it say that Pentecost in Acts, was on the first day of the week,

tall73 said:

And what I said was the prophecy involved the temple in the restored Israel after the exile. And Jesus applies it to that. Nor would I suggest the permanence when I quoted Jesus saying it was about to be the destroyed.




You are the one claiming it is a future prophecy after the cross. The prophecy was stated as future in Isaiah's day, regarding the return of Israelites after exile.

It does not say spiritual sacrifices. It says: Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices Will be accepted on My altar;

There was only ONE sacrifice in the new covenant:

Hebrews 10:14​

14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. (NKJV)​

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It doesn't say animal sacrifices either, but its after the Cross and all animal sacrifices pointed to Jesus and God's prophecies always come true so the only sacrifices left are the ones in the NT.

tall73 said:

Jesus quoted it to say that the temple was about to be destroyed, and was a den of thieves. He clearly was NOT talking about the temple in heaven being destroyed or being a den of thieves.



What? I said already I am not tying Sabbath keeping to the temple, and that the Sabbath is still going today. How would you get this out of what I said?



I keep trying to tie it to the particulars of the prophecy, and the context in which Jesus quoted it!

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First you said the prophecy was fulfilled in the OT, than it was fulfilled at Pentecost and now trying to indicate it was by Jesus death but none of that was what Isa 56:1-7 is speaking of. Its not a one time event, it speaks of not profaning the Sabbath, that's ongoing Exo20:10. It speaks of all nations coming together those who do not profane the Sabbath so they are keeping the Sabbath, which we see plainly in the NT Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts 18:4 and it continuing Isa 66:22-23 thus saith the LORD. Just as God commanded, because He makes no mistakes, we do by not fully trusting Him.

Jesus alter is in heaven, this prophecy only fits for future and it fits perfectly, but I understand it may not be convenient for some.

This is what the NT says about His alter and sacrifices and offerings

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.”

Hebrews 13:15 -the sacrifice of praise
Hebrews 13:16- doing good and sharing are “sacrifices
1 Peter 2:5 - spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ
Romans 12:1 - your body as a “living sacrifice

Jesus has an alter in heaven, there are still sacrifices, but not animal ones. Those who love Him and join themselves to Him and do not profane His Sabbath are His servants, and hold fast His covenant- invited for everyone, sadly not everyone hears Heb3:7-19. I can't imagine wanting to un-join myself to Christ, so for me I am sticking with what He said, my faith is His words as they have power, ours have none.

Isa 56:1Thus says the Lord:

Isa 56:6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—

Which voice are we going to listen to...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

His righteousness Psa 119:172 Isa 56:1-2 is everlasting Psa 119:142 .

Rev 7:3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."
Rev19:5
Then a voice came from the throne, saying, “Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!”
Rev22:3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.

When the God of the Universe invites us to join ourselves to Him and serve Him - our only response should be Yes Lord. He gave the conditions, its His will, not ours. He spoke clearly on the Sabbath over and over again in Scripture- He even personally wrote it out. I can't imagine when it comes to the end of days, looking back that anything we did on the Sabbath was more important than spending sacred time with Him on the day He asked that came with the power of His blessings and sanctification. No ball game, no home project, no TV show, no work, nothing.

I guess it will all be sorted out soon enough.

SabbathBlessings said:

Yes, that could be on any day of the week. It doesn;t always fall on the first day. My question was where in Scripture does it say that Pentecost was on the first day of the week,

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As an Adventist, since you hold that Jesus was crucified on Friday, rested in the grave on the Sabbath (they rested according to the commandment), and raised early in the morning on Sunday, that would make Friday the Passover, right? Jesus our Passover Lamb was slain.



That would make, in the Adventist reckoning, Saturday both the weekly Sabbath, and the first day of the feast of unleavened bread, which is also a holy convocation.

That also makes the first day of the week, upon which Jesus was raised, the first fruits:

Just as Jesus' death was the fulfillment of the Passover lamb, Jesus' resurrection fulfilled the wavesheaf. He was the firstfruits from among the dead, per Paul:



Now you don't have to take my word on that. You can take Ellen White's, from Desire of Ages:



Then you count 50 days inclusively (in our thinking 50 days after Passover, see this article on Shavout: Shavuot - Wikipedia, or this one on Pentecost:

From the latter:



Wavesheaf, and Pentecost were on a Sunday.

SabbathBlessings said:

It doesn't say animal sacrifices either, but its after the Cross and all animal sacrifices pointed to Jesus and God's prophecies always come true so the only sacrifices left are the ones in the NT.

First you said the prophecy was fulfilled in the OT, than it was fulfilled at Pentecost and now trying to indicate it was by Jesus death but none of that was what Isa 56:1-7 is speaking of.

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You are quite confused.

The reason I pointed out the statement in Acts 2 is that it is evidence that people, both Jews and proselytes, from all nations, came to worship at the temple. This was not the first, or only time that happened!

That happened regularly. That is why it was a house of prayer for all nations. Because since the exile when the Jewish people were dispersed, they were regathered and came from all over.

I am only giving evidence that this was the case--that Jews came from all over to worship at the temple. It doesn't have to be that Pentecost, or any other date. It only has to be Isaiah's timeline from his prophecies:

• Israel will be destroyed, the temple destroyed, the remanant taken captive, or going into exile.
• God would use Cyrus to bring them back (Isaiah 45)
• The temple would be rebuilt, and it would be a house of prayer for all nations
• The reason it would be a house of prayer for all nations is that not only will the remnant of Israel be brought back, but others with them (proselytes).

This all happened. Jerusalem was destroyed, the people went into exile, Cyrus brought them back, the temple was rebuilt, it became a house of prayer for all nations.

It was that way for a quite a while after the exile. The only reason I quoted Acts 2 is because you were saying it wasn't all nations. But Acts 2 says plainly from every nation under heaven, and it said both Jew and proselytes.


This all happened.

Then Jesus noted that this time, already fulfilled, of the temple being a house of prayer for all nations, was coming to an end, because their house was left to them desolate, and it would be destroyed. That was the temple He applied it to, quoting from Isaiah.

And He said the time was coming when true worshipers would not worship in Jerusalem or that mountaint (Gerizim, the place of Samaritan worship), to the woman at the well, but would worship in Spirit and truth.

It is not a single day fulfillment. It is what Isiah described--the destroyed temple would be replaced, the scattered people would be brought back, and even more people would join them, and these new people's burnt offerings and sacrifices would be accepted on the altar. The temple would be a house of prayer for all nations.

SabbathBlessings said:

Its not a one time event, it speaks of not profaning the Sabbath

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We both agree it is not a one time event. But you have to apply all the particluars which are:

after the time of Isaiah, after the regathering of the exiles, at the house of the Lord with burnt offerings and sacrifices. And Jesus identified which that was--the temple in Jerusalem that was now a den of thieves

SabbathBlessings said:

, that's ongoing Exo20:10. It speaks of all nations coming together those who do not profane the Sabbath so they are keeping the Sabbath

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All Jews and proselytes were keeping the Sabbath! Of course they were. Why would they not be?

And that was true during the period I am talking about, but also in the period following that, because they were Jews and proselytes! And in case you forgot, that was a term applied to Jewish converts in the four uses in the NT.

But I already said all the Jewish Christians, whether native born or proselyte, tens of thousands of them, per Acts 21, were keeping the Sabbath, and all the rest of the law. And they even continued to do so after they fled Jerusalem. We see the Nazarines some time later in the writings of Jerome and Epiphanius who record that they were keeping the Sabbath, etc.

SabbathBlessings said:

, which we see plainly in the NT Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts 18:4

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Which doesn't meet the particulars of the prophecy, because Jesus pointed out the temple indicated--the one they turned into a den of thieves. The one with burnt offerings.

SabbathBlessings said:

Jesus alter is in heaven, this prophecy only fits for future and it fits perfectly, but I understand it may not be convenient for some.

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Jesus did not say the altar in heaven was a den of thieves! How absurd!


Where did Jesus drive out those who bought and sold? In heaven? Of course not. He said "My house is a house of prayer. But you have made it a den of thieves.

SabbathBlessings said:

This is what the NT says about His alter and sacrifices and offerings

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.”

Hebrews 13:15 -the sacrifice of praise
Hebrews 13:16- doing good and sharing are “sacrifices
1 Peter 2:5 - spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ
Romans 12:1 - your body as a “living sacrifice

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You don't have burnt offerings there, which were stipulated.

And you pointed out the GOLDEN altar of incense, IN the sanctuary, which was not where burnt offerings took place. They took place on the bronze altar in the type. And Jesus went to the cross in the reality.


And Jesus already applied the verse from Isaiah regarding a house of prayer for all nations to the temple on earth, but said they had turned it into a den of thieves, and that it would be destroyed.

tall73 said:

As an Adventist, since you hold that Jesus was crucified on Friday, rested in the grave on the Sabbath (they rested according to the commandment), and raised early in the morning on Sunday, that would make Friday the Passover, right? Jesus our Passover Lamb was slain.

1 Corinthians 5:7-8​

7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (NKJV)​

That would make, in the Adventist reckoning, Saturday both the weekly Sabbath, and the first day of the feast of unleavened bread, which is also a holy convocation.

That also makes the first day of the week, upon which Jesus was raised, the first fruits:

Leviticus 23:9-12​

9 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 10 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: When you come into the land which I give to you, and reap its harvest, then you shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest. 11 He shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted on your behalf; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it.​

​

​

Just as Jesus' death was the fulfillment of the Passover lamb, Jesus' resurrection fulfilled the wavesheaf. He was the firstfruits from among the dead, per Paul:

1 Corinthians 15:20​

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. (NKJV)​

Now you don't have to take my word on that. You can take Ellen White's, from Desire of Ages:

https://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/130.3841#3865

Desire of Ages, Ellen White​

Christ arose from the dead as the first fruits of those that slept. He was the antitype of the wave sheaf, and His resurrection took place on the very day when the wave sheaf was to be presented before the Lord.​

Then you count 50 days inclusively (in our thinking 50 days after Passover, see this article on Shavout: Shavuot - Wikipedia, or this one on Pentecost:

From the latter:

The term Pentecost comes from Koine Greek: πεντηκοστή, romanized: pentēkostē, lit. 'fiftieth'. One of the meanings of "Pentecost" in the Septuagint, the Koine translation of the Hebrew Bible, refers to the festival of Shavuot, one of the Three Pilgrimage Festivals, which is celebrated on the fiftieth day after Passover according to Deuteronomy 16:10,Pentecost - Wikipedia and Exodus 34:22,[5] where it is referred to as the "Festival of Weeks" (Koine Greek: ἑορτὴν ἑβδομάδων, romanized: heortēn hebdomádōn).[6][7][8] The Septuagint uses the term Pentēkostē in this context in the Book of Tobit and 2 Maccabees.[clarification needed][9][10][11]​

Wavesheaf, and Pentecost were on a Sunday.

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It doesn't prove Pentecost was on the first day, nor is it stated in Scripture. Even if it was, its an annual feast day and doesn;t change any of God's commandments.

tall73 said:

You are quite confused.

The reason I pointed out the statement in Acts 2 is that it is evidence that people, both Jews and proselytes, from all nations, came to worship at the temple. This was not the first, or only time that happened!

That happened regularly. That is why it was a house of prayer for all nations. Because since the exile when the Jewish people were dispersed, they were regathered and came from all over.

I am only giving evidence that this was the case--that Jews came from all over to worship at the temple. It doesn't have to be that Pentecost, or any other date. It only has to be Isaiah's timeline from his prophecies:

• Israel will be destroyed, the temple destroyed, the remanant taken captive, or going into exile.
• God would use Cyrus to bring them back (Isaiah 45)
• The temple would be rebuilt, and it would be a house of prayer for all nations
• The reason it would be a house of prayer for all nations is that not only will the remnant of Israel be brought back, but others with them (proselytes).

This all happened. Jerusalem was destroyed, the people went into exile, Cyrus brought them back, the temple was rebuilt, it became a house of prayer for all nations.

It was that way for a quite a while after the exile. The only reason I quoted Acts 2 is because you were saying it wasn't all nations. But Acts 2 says plainly from every nation under heaven, and it said both Jew and proselytes.

Isaiah 56:6-8​

6 “Also the sons of the foreigner​

Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him,​

And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants—​

Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,​

And holds fast My covenant—​

7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,​

And make them joyful in My house of prayer.​

Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices​

Will be accepted on My altar;​

For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”​

8 The Lord GOD, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,​

“Yet I will gather to him​

Others besides those who are gathered to him.” (NKJV)​

This all happened.

Then Jesus noted that this time, already fulfilled, of the temple being a house of prayer for all nations, was coming to an end, because their house was left to them desolate, and it would be destroyed. That was the temple He applied it to, quoting from Isaiah.

And He said the time was coming when true worshipers would not worship in Jerusalem or that mountaint (Gerizim, the place of Samaritan worship), to the woman at the well, but would worship in Spirit and truth.

It is not a single day fulfillment. It is what Isiah described--the destroyed temple would be replaced, the scattered people would be brought back, and even more people would join them, and these new people's burnt offerings and sacrifices would be accepted on the altar. The temple would be a house of prayer for all nations.




We both agree it is not a one time event. But you have to apply all the particluars which are:

after the time of Isaiah, after the regathering of the exiles, at the house of the Lord with burnt offerings and sacrifices. And Jesus identified which that was--the temple in Jerusalem that was now a den of thieves




All Jews and proselytes were keeping the Sabbath! Of course they were. Why would they not be?

And that was true during the period I am talking about, but also in the period following that, because they were Jews and proselytes! And in case you forgot, that was a term applied to Jewish converts in the four uses in the NT.

But I already said all the Jewish Christians, whether native born or proselyte, tens of thousands of them, per Acts 21, were keeping the Sabbath, and all the rest of the law. And they even continued to do so after they fled Jerusalem. We see the Nazarines some time later in the writings of Jerome and Epiphanius who record that they were keeping the Sabbath, etc.



Which doesn't meet the particulars of the prophecy, because Jesus pointed out the temple indicated--the one they turned into a den of thieves. The one with burnt offerings.




Jesus did not say the altar in heaven was a den of thieves! How absurd!

Luke 19:45 Then He went into the temple and began to drive out those who bought and sold in it, 46 saying to them, “It is written, My house is a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a den of thieves.’ ” (NKJV)​

Where did Jesus drive out those who bought and sold? In heaven? Of course not. He said "My house is a house of prayer. But you have made it a den of thieves.




You don't have burnt offerings there, which were stipulated.

And you pointed out the GOLDEN altar of incense, IN the sanctuary, which was not where burnt offerings took place. They took place on the bronze altar in the type. And Jesus went to the cross in the reality.


And Jesus already applied the verse from Isaiah regarding a house of prayer for all nations to the temple on earth, but said they had turned it into a den of thieves, and that it would be destroyed.

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When the God who made us, invites everyone to join themselves to Him, love and serve Him and we look for ways around it because we don't like the conditions- keep the Sabbath- hold fast My covenant but you say I am confused.


We agree the temple was rebuilt after the exile and that Jews and proselytes came from many nations to worship there. But Isaiah 56 says more than that.

It speaks of foreigners who:

join themselves to the LORD
love His name
keep His Sabbath
hold fast His covenant

That is not just people visiting Jerusalem. That is covenant participation.

And Isaiah 56:8 says:

“I will gather others besides those who are gathered.”

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So even after Israel is regathered, God says there are still others to bring in. That sounds bigger than just the return from Babylon.
Isaiah also says:

“I will bring them to My holy mountain.”

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In Scripture, God’s “holy mountain” is not limited to one earthly building. Isaiah 66:22–23 speaks of all flesh worshiping “from Sabbath to Sabbath” in the context of the new heavens and the new earth. That goes beyond the Second Temple period. It shows the holy mountain ultimately points to God’s dwelling with His people, not just one structure in Jerusalem. The New Testament even speaks of coming to the heavenly Mount Zion Hebrews 12:22. So being brought to God’s holy mountain means access to His presence, not just entry into a physical temple.

Yes, Isaiah mentions burnt offerings and an altar. But the prophets often use temple language to describe accepted worship. The New Testament shows that sacrifices continue — as spiritual sacrifices 1 Peter 2:5; Hebrews 13:15–16. So “accepted sacrifices” means accepted worshipers.

When Jesus quoted Isaiah 56 and said, “My house shall be called a house of prayer,” He was condemning corruption, not canceling the promise. If the prophecy were finished and ending, it would not serve as the standard they were judged by. The temple being destroyed does not cancel God’s promise. The first temple was destroyed too, yet God’s purposes continued.

John 4 does not end the promise either. It expands it. Worship would no longer be tied to Jerusalem or Gerizim, which actually makes “house of prayer for all nations” possible in a greater way.

And Isaiah 56 specifically includes Sabbath keeping. That is not festival attendance, its Sabbath-keeping. That is ongoing covenant faithfulness . In Acts we begin to see Gentiles gathering on the Sabbath to hear the Word of God Acts 13:44. That looks much closer to Isaiah’s picture of foreigners joining themselves to the LORD. Sabbath-keeping and obedience to God's covenant is not described as optional traits, it describes loyalty and faithfulness.

I am OK to agree to disagree this will get sorted out in the LORD's time.

SabbathBlessings said:

It doesn't prove Pentecost was on the first day, nor is it stated in Scripture.

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SabbathBlessings said:

Even if it was, its an annual feast day and doesn;t change any of God's commandments.

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Yes, the wavesheaf and Pentecost are both appointed times.

Their fulfillment were both on Sunday.

Nor did I claim it changed a commandment. I referenced in passing the Sabbath was the day before.

tall73 said:

Yes, the wavesheaf and Pentecost are both appointed times.

Their fulfillment were both on Sunday.

Nor did I claim it changed a commandment. I referenced in passing the Sabbath was the day before.

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They could fall on any day of the week. Where does the Bible say Pentecost was on the first day. I heard something a while back where Pentecost was not on the first day by the way it was calculated, but can't find it again. It really doesn't change anything either way, more just curious.

SabbathBlessings said:

When the God who made us, invites everyone to join themselves to Him, love and serve Him and we look for ways around it because we don't like the conditions- keep the Sabbath- hold fast My covenant but you say I am confused.


We agree the temple was rebuilt after the exile and that Jews and proselytes came from many nations to worship there. But Isaiah 56 says more than that.

It speaks of foreigners who:

join themselves to the LORD
love His name
keep His Sabbath
hold fast His covenant

That is not just people visiting Jerusalem. That is covenant participation.

And Isaiah 56:8 says:


So even after Israel is regathered, God says there are still others to bring in. That sounds bigger than just the return from Babylon.
Isaiah also says:


In Scripture, God’s “holy mountain” is not limited to one earthly building. Isaiah 66:22–23 speaks of all flesh worshiping “from Sabbath to Sabbath” in the context of the new heavens and the new earth. That goes beyond the Second Temple period. It shows the holy mountain ultimately points to God’s dwelling with His people, not just one structure in Jerusalem. The New Testament even speaks of coming to the heavenly Mount Zion Hebrews 12:22. So being brought to God’s holy mountain means access to His presence, not just entry into a physical temple.

Yes, Isaiah mentions burnt offerings and an altar. But the prophets often use temple language to describe accepted worship. The New Testament shows that sacrifices continue — as spiritual sacrifices 1 Peter 2:5; Hebrews 13:15–16. So “accepted sacrifices” means accepted worshipers.

When Jesus quoted Isaiah 56 and said, “My house shall be called a house of prayer,” He was condemning corruption, not canceling the promise. If the prophecy were finished and ending, it would not serve as the standard they were judged by. The temple being destroyed does not cancel God’s promise. The first temple was destroyed too, yet God’s purposes continued.

John 4 does not end the promise either. It expands it. Worship would no longer be tied to Jerusalem or Gerizim, which actually makes “house of prayer for all nations” possible in a greater way.

And Isaiah 56 specifically includes Sabbath keeping. That is not festival attendance, its Sabbath-keeping. That is ongoing covenant faithfulness . In Acts we begin to see Gentiles gathering on the Sabbath to hear the Word of God Acts 13:44. That looks much closer to Isaiah’s picture of foreigners joining themselves to the LORD. Sabbath-keeping and obedience to God's covenant is not described as optional traits, it describes loyalty and faithfulness.

I am OK to agree to disagree this will get sorted out in the LORD's time.

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I said you were confused regarding what I was claiming so it could be clarified.

And of course the destruction of the temple doesn't end God's purposes. But that the particulars of the specified prophecy of Isaiah regarding the temple Jesus identified were done.

If you wish to go through Isaiah 66 we can. Though it will take a while, as it has quite a few particulars to consider.

SabbathBlessings said:

They could fall on any day of the week. Where does the Bible say Pentecost was on the first day. I heard something a while back where Pentecost was not on the first day by the way it was calculated, but can't find it again. It really doesn't change anything either way, more just curious.

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Well "they", if you include the wavesheaf are not really in question for that year.

Whether or not we see eye to eye on other issues take a moment to re-read the Desire of Ages section on the wavesheaf, as it is an important fulfillment. From there it is just math.

Regarding calculating, yes there are two methods. Some understand the day after the Sabbath to refer to the weekly, and some to the first day of unleavened bread. But in this case they would be the same.

SabbathBlessings said:

The poster I replied to made it sound like animal sacrifices were always connected to the seventh day Sabbath when they were not in the OT Exo20:11 Exo20:8-11 Lev23:3 Isa58:13

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But sacrifices were commanded for every Sabbath in Numbers 28.

“‘Then on the sabbath day two male lambs one year old without defect, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, and its drink offering: This is the burnt offering of every sabbath in addition to the continual burnt offering and its drink offering.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭28‬:‭9‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

tall73 said:

We can probably only make progress in our understanding if we compare notes one Scripture at a time, and I think Col. 2 is probably better to start with.

But for now I will only state that I agree the rest in Hebrews 4 that we enter into "today", is certainly resting from our works by faith, and not the seventh-day Sabbath.

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Yeah seeing that verse 9 begins with the word “Therefore” it’s a clear indication that the sabbath that Paul is referring to is the certain day that he had previously mentioned in verse 7.

Studyman said:

I don't think the Scriptures support that philosophy. And here is why.

Heb. 4: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

I believe this is speaking about when a man hears God's instruction. That is certainly the Spirit of Christ's intent through David.

6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker. 7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work. 10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: 11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath "that they should not enter into my rest".


8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

For me, I was placed by God in a world that polluted and rejected God's sabbaths and created their own. And I followed along in the religion of my fathers for many years, until I heard His Voice.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

At first I didn't hearken to God's voice, just as those who fell in the wilderness. But through study and a desire to "Seek the Righteousness of God", as the Jesus "of the Bible" instructed, I came to find myself in the exact same unbelief as those Israelites who also lived in rejection of God's Voice. So one day I stopped ignoring God's Voice, and hearkened to it instead, and this because I have chosen to believe God, or HE has placed it in my heart to believe God, I'm not sure which one. But I enter God's Earthy Rest, as HE Commanded, so as not to fall after the same example of unbelief. And in doing so, I have ceased from my own works, as God did His. Therefore, like Paul teaches,

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For "we must all appear" before the judgment seat of Christ; that "every one" may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So today, I have heard His Voice, and have not hardened my heart, as I did "Wherein in time past I walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience", and have ceased from my own works, because I believe Him.

Heb. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder "of them that diligently seek him".

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The certain day that is being referred to as a sabbath rest in verse 9 is today according to verse 7. That’s why verse 9 begins with the word “Therefore” because he’s referring to the certain day he had previously mentioned in verse 7. If Paul was just referring to keeping the sabbath the certain day would’ve been the 7th day.

Also Paul made the same statement in Romans 14 that you quoted from 2 Corinthians 5:9.

“One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭5‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

BNR32FAN said:

But sacrifices were commanded for every Sabbath in Numbers 28.

“‘Then on the sabbath day two male lambs one year old without defect, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, and its drink offering: This is the burnt offering of every sabbath in addition to the continual burnt offering and its drink offering.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭28‬:‭9‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

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I posted this to another poster on this same verse in this thread, maybe you didn't see it.....here it is.

All animal sacrifices and the feast days offerings that included animal sacrifices pointed to Jesus, they are shadow laws fulfilled in Christ Dan 9:27 Heb10:1-15. The Sabbath day was never married to animal sacrifices- the Sabbath started at Creation before sin, no animal sacrifices Exo20:11 no animal sacrifices in the Sabbath commandment Exo20:8-11 the purpose of the Sabbath was never only animal sacrifices, they included it after the fall until the Seed, after the Cross the Sabbath continued on with no animal sacrifices because again they were never married to the Sabbath, nor was it ever the Sabbath’s main purpose according to the LORD Exo 20:8-11 Isa 58:13 Lev23:3 . So you are only reading one section of Scripture and not allowing the Bible to give you the full story

BNR32FAN said:

The certain day that is being referred to as a sabbath rest in verse 9 is today according to verse 7. That’s why verse 9 begins with the word “Therefore” because he’s referring to the certain day he had previously mentioned in verse 7. If Paul was just referring to keeping the sabbath the certain day would’ve been the 7th day.

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Verse 7 is quoting David, verse 8 is referencing Joshua, the passage is not in sequential order in present tense, its referencing important OT history. These are both OT references, almost all of Hebrews 4 is referencing OT. You need to find out what kept the Israelites out of their promised rest into the promise land and forfeited their inheritance, the Scripture tells us plainly (Eze20:13, Eze 20:15-16) and this rebellion is what we are being warned of Heb 3:7-19 Heb4:6 Heb4:11 in our day, why verse 9 remains, not changed for God's people. Without understanding the references being quoted one will sadly do the exact warning this passage is trying to save us from.

SabbathBlessings said:

All animal sacrifices and the feast days offerings that included animal sacrifices pointed to Jesus, they are shadow laws fulfilled in Christ Dan 9:27 Heb10:1-15. The Sabbath day was never married to animal sacrifices- the Sabbath started at Creation before sin, no animal sacrifices Exo20:11 no animal sacrifices in the Sabbath commandment Exo20:8-11 the purpose of the Sabbath was never only animal sacrifices, they included it after the fall until the Seed, after the Cross the Sabbath continued on with no animal sacrifices because again they were never married to the Sabbath, nor was it ever the Sabbath’s main purpose according to the LORD Exo 20:8-11 Isa 58:13 Lev23:3 . So you are only reading one section of Scripture and not allowing the Bible to give you the full story

The Sabbath is on the seventh day of the week, thus saith the LORD Exo20:10 our church has communion on the Sabbath , but the Lords Supper is not the definition of the Sabbath according to God. Potluck is not the main focus on the Sabbath so not sure where you got that from, the purpose of the Sabbath is setting aside all work and labors on the seventh day, so we can spend quality and holy time with God, honoring God Isa 58:13 Exo20:8-11 coming together as one body Lev 23:3 on the holy day of the LORD Isa 58:13, eating however is not a sin on the Sabbath, never was never will be.

You seem to be reading a lot of your own ideas into Scripture instead of allowing the Scripture to correct our theology. I say agree to disagreee because the Bible is not written according to you or according to to me, it’s according to God. I believe He plainly tells us, but not everyone trusts His plain words. God will sort everything out soon enough. He is who we have to answer to not anyone else.

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You are correct in that we are to spend quality time with God on the Sabbath. God says keep holy the Sabbath, not necessarily get together on the seventh day. We see this clearly in scripture because God made Sabbaths on other days.
If it is to be kept holy, does that only mean for us to get together? We are to spend time in the presence of God.
In the Old Covenant, He was present in the bread, the wine and the lamb. If the Old Covenant was a shadow of things to come, what does that mean for the New Covemant?

Scripture does tell us that Jesus is present in the bread and wine offered by the Apostle. As He says this is my body, this is the blood of the New Covenant. This fact is later confirmed by Paul. The Sabbath is to be kept holy, not just a day to get together
If God is present in the bread and wine, what happens if we discard it as merely a symbol and refuse to believe?
You are correct, God will judge the correct interpretation. I just wonder with all of the scriptural references pointing to the Catholic view of the Sabbath, the bread and wine, Jesus being a priest forever in the order of Melchisedech, the Sabbath having the perpetual holocaust of the Lamb, bread and wine, what gives Ellen White the right to call us the Mark of the Beast and Antichrist over disagreement of a day.
Is Jesus not the Lamb of God? Were lamb, bread and wine not supposed to be present as a perpetual holocaust on the Sabbath?
Seems like a pretty heavy charge to bring over a dispute about a day, don’t you think? If the Catholic Mass was evil, it should be readily apparent from scripture. The more I read, the more I am finding the opposite to be true.
Does the Bible not say Woe to those that call the evil good and the good evil? Other than you don’t believe it, can you show me from scripture how the Catholic Mass is evil?
While you do that, I am going to go spend time in the presence of God in Eucharistic adoration and contemplate the sacrifice Jesus made when He loved me and gave Himself for me. You can go with your friends to potluck.
I can understand your disagreement and appreciate your respectful attitude in this regard, but why would that cause Ellen white to have such hatred for the Catholic view point? She says that there are God’s people in the Catholic Church, but she stills says the Papacy is apostate and Sunday Sabbath is the mark of the beast. Last time I checked, apostasy and mark of the best were charges of evil, no matter how many nice sounding words we use while making those charges
Without sacrifice and the presence of God, there is no Sabbath. God says He can make Sabbath any day He wishes, as evidence form scripture in the Old Covenant. What right did adventists have to remove the sacrament from the Sabbath and then call the sacrament itself evil?

boughtwithaprice said:

You are correct in that we are to spend quality time with God on the Sabbath. God says keep holy the Sabbath, not necessarily get together on the seventh day. We see this clearly in scripture because God made Sabbaths on other days.
If it is to be kept holy, does that only mean for us to get together? We are to spend time in the presence of God.
In the Old Covenant, He was present in the bread, the wine and the lamb. If the Old Covenant was a shadow of things to come, what does that mean for the New Covemant?

Scripture does tell us that Jesus is present in the bread and wine offered by the Apostle. As He says this is my body, this is the blood of the New Covenant. This fact is later confirmed by Paul. The Sabbath is to be kept holy, not just a day to get together
If God is present in the bread and wine, what happens if we discard it as merely a symbol and refuse to believe?
You are correct, God will judge the correct interpretation. I just wonder with all of the scriptural references pointing to the Catholic view of the Sabbath, the bread and wine, Jesus being a priest forever in the order of Melchisedech, the Sabbath having the perpetual holocaust of the Lamb, bread and wine, what gives Ellen White the right to call us the Mark of the Beast and Antichrist over disagreement of a day.
Is Jesus not the Lamb of God? Were lamb, bread and wine not supposed to be present as a perpetual holocaust on the Sabbath?
Seems like a pretty heavy charge to bring over a dispute about a day, don’t you think? If the Catholic Mass was evil, it should be readily apparent from scripture. The more I read, the more I am finding the opposite to be true.
Does the Bible not say Woe to those that call the evil good and the good evil? Other than you don’t believe it, can you show me from scripture how the Catholic Mass is evil?
While you do that, I am going to go spend time in the presence of God in Eucharistic adoration and contemplate the sacrifice Jesus made when He loved me and gave Himself for me. You can go with your friends to potluck.
I can understand your disagreement and appreciate your respectful attitude in this regard, but why would that cause Ellen white to have such hatred for the Catholic view point? She says that there are God’s people in the Catholic Church, but she stills says the Papacy is apostate and Sunday Sabbath is the mark of the beast. Last time I checked, apostasy and mark of the best were charges of evil, no matter how many nice sounding words we use while making those charges
Without sacrifice and the presence of God, there is no Sabbath. God says He can make Sabbath any day He wishes, as evidence form scripture in the Old Covenant. What right did adventists have to remove the sacrament from the Sabbath and then call the sacrament itself evil?

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Thats where you and I are going to disagree, you claim its just a day, but God said this and never said it about any other day.

Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.

Isa 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,

Why God commanded

Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

What did God do with the seventh day that He did not do with any other day

Gen 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
Exo 20:11 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.


So another voice came along and changed God's spoken and written words. You will not find one verse in all of Scripture where God changed the Sabbath- He warned us about another doing so, the same system who gives the mark of the beast Dan7:25. Only the beast can tell us what their mark (of authority) is that would be over God's.

We look at the story from Adam and Eve perspective from our day- its just a tree, what difference does a tree make, what difference does a day make. The difference is the voice behind the command. The difference is the power of God's blessings and sanctification.

God's words have power, there is another voice that wants to countermand that power so serve him instead- the battle of worship which voice one is going to listen to. Rom6:16

You're church claimed it changed God's Sabbath commandment, based on their authority over the word of God exactly what were warned would happen.

These are not Adventists quotes, these are coming from your own church

It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

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Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?

A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

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Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
—Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

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Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act. And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.
—C. F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons, in answer to a letter regarding the change of the Sabbath, November 11, 1895.

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God blessed and sanctified the seventh day Sabbath, He rested on the Sabbath and made man in His image to follow Him and commanded man to keep the Sabbath day holy.

God related profaning the Sabbath as idol worship and doing evil Eze20:16 Isa 56:2 Neh13:17 Mark3:4 and He tells us why Eze22:26

Its basically saying what God says doesn’t matter, we are going to choose our own day that WE (not God) sanctify- basically saying we do not need God. Why when we tear down what Jesus is Lord of Mark2:28, we are making something else our lord.

... you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.
—The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, 88th edition, page 89. Originally published in 1876, republished and Copyright 1980 by TAN Books and Publishers, Inc., pages 72-73.

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The end time is over worship- why we are being called back to worship the God who made Rev14:7 Exo20:11. Worship according to Jesus is over obedience to the commandments of God- God's own Testimony written by God Himself Mark7:7-13 Mat15:3-14 Exo31:18

Its not the people in the Catholic church that's the issue, there are God's people in every church but they have openly said they are above the word of God and faith comes from hearing the word of God Romans 10:17 and without faith we cannot please God. Heb11:6

Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God... The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.'
—Catholic Record, September 1, 1923.

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That's why God is calling His people out of these false teachings before its too late Rev18:4

tall73 said:

I don't think I am going to respond yet overly much. I want to make sure I am understanding the view you are presenting for consideration. So I may ask some clarifying questions, etc.

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I really appreciate you actually wanting to understand another persons position, as opposed to just justify or promoting another adopted religious philosophy.

In a quick overview, in my understanding from the very first 3 chapters of the bible to the very end, God has placed His people into a world in which other voices, that profess to know God, exists. This voice or spirit or thought, whatever, promotes and justifies disobedience to God's Laws. Even cherry picking God's Own Words to do so, as did the serpent. While God's voice promotes and justifies obedience to God. This is clear throughout the Bible. I used to think, why would God place me into a world where such voices exist? I have come to understand it is because we are created in the image of HIM, which means we have free will. Like God, we can choose. A pig cannot choose good or evil. A sheep cannot choose good or evil. But mortal humans with free will can. This is an enormous responsibility in a world where there are more than one free will being. It becomes necessary, essential for a population of humans, that they "Choose" to place limitation on their own free will. Even God "Chooses" to be patient, forgiving, compassionate etc., no one made Him place such limitations on Himself. These are limitations HE Placed on His Own Free Will that was not only for the good of others in His Kingdom, but for Himself as well. No king or kingdom can flourish without self control and the end will be the destruction of all who placed their trust in this king. (Read Is. 14:12-20 "Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and "slain thy people": the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.")

So I understand why God created man in His image, then told them "Thou shall not". If a man is not willing to place the limitations of God's Choosing, on their own free will in this short mortal life, why would HE grant that person immortality to cause the "provoking of his sons, and of his daughters" for eternity?

So we are, as God has said, tested, "that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no." This is done by giving mankind Laws, that we might learn voluntary humility, and place limitations of God, our Father, on our own free will, and thereby growing in the knowledge of God. That we might learn obedience, even when surrounded by religious voices, who profess to know God, but promotes and justifies disobedience to God's Laws. This was true for Eve, Abel, Noah, Abraham and Lot, Joseph, Moses, Caleb, Joshua, Shadrack, Daniel, John the Baptist, Zacharias, Paul Peter, James etc., and most certainly Jesus. They were all placed by God in a world in which religious voices existed that promotes and justifies disobedience to God's Laws. And Paul said these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted".

And here we are, placed in the same world, surrounded by the same religious voices.

tall73 said:

Regarding the requirements stated, there are certainly a number of views. I am not sure which you hold to, or even if you hold to one I am unfamiliar with.

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I hold to the view that Jesus was surrounded by religions who "professed to know God", but promoted and justified disobedience to God's Laws.

Jesus defined for us the religion of the Pharisees, "The Jews Religion" is great detail. The Law and Prophets warned about them as well, and their promoting of the precepts of men, not God. The Spirit of Christ in Jeremiah pleaded:

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision "of their own heart", and "not out of the mouth of the LORD". 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one "that walketh after the imagination of his own heart", No evil shall come upon you.

I have made the case, and can absolutely prove through EVERY Word Jesus spoke, and His Spirit Inspired throughout the Holy Scriptures when defining the Jews religion, that they promoted and justified disobedience to God's Laws, no difference whatsoever from the message of the serpent to Eve.

Yet, I am surrounded by preachers who profess to know God, that are working to convince me that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by "obedience to God's Laws". That in Acts 15 they were trying to place on the Gentiles to the same Yoke they placed on the Disciples necks, and their fathers before them, and they are saying this Yoke was "obedience to God's Laws". The entire Bible refutes this philosophy. And those who promote it, do so by cherry picking Scriptures, in my view, no different than in the very beginning.

To believe that, I would literally have to erase "Every Word" Jesus spoke when HE defined for me the "Jews Religion" Paul was saved from. And believe that the Spirit of Christ instructed His Apostles to turn the Gentiles away from obedience to God's Laws, and were promoting and justifying disobedience to God's Laws.

In my view, one of the most wicked, deceitful and evil religious philosophy that exists in this world God placed me in, is the teaching that "The Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by obedience to God's Laws".

Belief in this leaven has turned many of my brothers away from the Word of God, and towards the religions of this world that God placed us in.

tall73 said:

So are you taking the requirements to be:

• Noahide laws
• Some laws from the law of Moses, but not all
• A part for whole listing that means to keep all the law of Moses
• Regulations that would make synagogue worship together more bearable.
• Some other interpretation

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God's Laws are Righteousness, (Ps. 119:172) and are written for "our sakes no doubt", in my understanding. If we Seek God's Righteousness, as the Jesus "of the bible" instructs, then we will find His Meaning, as Jesus says, " and all these things shall be added unto you."

But we must seek His Righteousness through HIS Voice, in my understanding, not another voice. Even if they "profess to know God, or "Call Jesus Lord, Lord". I think this is Paul's message to Timothy.

2 Tim. 3: 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child "thou hast known the holy scriptures", which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith "which is in" Christ Jesus. (This would be the Law and Prophets that Paul "believed all that was written therein", Yes?)

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, "for instruction in righteousness": 17 That the man of God "may be perfect", throughly furnished unto all good works.

I mean, how can I be perfect even as my Father in heaven is perfect, if I don't believe in His Sayings?

tall73 said:

Moreover, could you relate this to Acts 21, where the decision of the council is again referenced?

Thank you.

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Acts 21 doesn't nullify Acts 15 in my view, nor does it bring question to Jesus Words defining the "Jews Religion" in Matt. 15, 23 and other places in the bible.

19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles "to forsake Moses", saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him, 28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, "and the law", and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

So then if a man believes Moses and the Prophets, and Jesus, and Paul, they would know that these Jews were zealous for the Pharisees Law, not God's Law. They didn't believe Moses. If they had, they wouldn't be accusing the Apostles Jesus sent of teaching against God's Laws, they would all be part of the same Body. But as you can see, they were not.

We see these things differently because you have been convinced that the Jews religion in Jerusalem, whose traditions and commandments of men Jesus exposed, the same religion that killed Jesus, the same religion that Peter argued with in Acts 5:27-33,

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given "to them that obey him". 33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and "took counsel to slay them".


was the same Jews religion that stoned Stephen to death in Acts 7;

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and "they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One"; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, "and have not kept it"., 54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

58 And cast him out of the city, "and stoned him": and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

was also the same religion, from the same Temple, of the same City of David in Acts 21;

30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut. 31 And as they went about "to kill him", tidings came unto the chief captain of the band, that all Jerusalem was in an uproar.

were promoting obedience to God's Laws that we have also been told by the religions of this world is a Yoke of Bondage, beggarly elements and rudiments of this world.

Paul even followed their tradition concerning purification and vows, even thou, as Jesus points out the Law in Matt. 5; When thou shalt vow a vow unto the LORD thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the LORD thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee. But if thou shalt forbear to vow, "it shall be no sin in thee."

And yet they still tried to kill him, just as they killed Stephen, just as they intended to kill Peter, just as they killed Jesus, and the Prophets before Him all the way back to Abel.

For me it's a no-brainer. The Jews had full well rejected God's Commandments by their own traditions, and taught for doctrines the Commandments of men. They had polluted God's Sabbaths and Feasts, and had created their own high days. They despised the Judgments of God and created their own. They refused to "Seek the Righteousness of God", and went about instead, to establish their own righteousness.

This is undeniable Biblical Truth. They might have called their traditions, "The Law of Moses", (honored Him with their lips) but they didn't promote God's Laws.

It might help if you read Is. 1:1-20. This is the Spirit of Christ detailing for us the "Jews Religion". They despised His judgments and commandments all week long, but then would offer to God the Blood of an unblemished, innocent Life, as per the Law, to "Justify" their religion. As you can see, the Spirit of Christ pretty much tells them, "No Flesh is Justified by works of the Law".

I hope this post isn't too long, and you can see my position and the source.

SabbathBlessings said:

I posted this to another poster on this same verse in this thread, maybe you didn't see it.....here it is.

All animal sacrifices and the feast days offerings that included animal sacrifices pointed to Jesus, they are shadow laws fulfilled in Christ Dan 9:27 Heb10:1-15. The Sabbath day was never married to animal sacrifices- the Sabbath started at Creation before sin, no animal sacrifices Exo20:11 no animal sacrifices in the Sabbath commandment Exo20:8-11 the purpose of the Sabbath was never only animal sacrifices, they included it after the fall until the Seed, after the Cross the Sabbath continued on with no animal sacrifices because again they were never married to the Sabbath, nor was it ever the Sabbath’s main purpose according to the LORD Exo 20:8-11 Isa 58:13 Lev23:3 . So you are only reading one section of Scripture and not allowing the Bible to give you the full story

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So who rested on the 7th day in creation in which the Sabbath begins.. isn't Christ Himself?

BNR32FAN said:

The certain day that is being referred to as a sabbath rest in verse 9 is today according to verse 7. That’s why verse 9 begins with the word “Therefore” because he’s referring to the certain day he had previously mentioned in verse 7. If Paul was just referring to keeping the sabbath the certain day would’ve been the 7th day.

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Paul was referencing David's Words in which he believed. You ignored David's words because you don't believe them. This is why you and Paul are on different pages.

Today, if you hear God's Voice to obey Him, don't harden your heart. And God's Sabbath is a shadow of the Rest that awaits the Faithful. If you don't believe in God enough to honor Him in His Earthly Sabbath, why would HE want you in His Heavenly Sabbath. The Biblical Truth is, HE wont. "Therefore" Today, if you hear His Voice, don't dishonor Him like you did the last time you heard His Voice. You never know when you will not have any more "days".

BNR32FAN said:

Also Paul made the same statement in Romans 14 that you quoted from 2 Corinthians 5:9.

“One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

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Yes, what does it matter what day you or I esteem or don't esteem. Are we Holy like God that we can create our own holy days? Paul is speaking about men with Faith here, not men of no faith. He knows that if they continue to "Seek the Righteousness of God", as a faithful man would do, then they will become fully convinced in his mind that God is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. "Therefore", they will find the Judgments of God, and the Days that God Himself "Esteems above other days", and be convinced in his own mind that God's Word is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works, not one man or another man.

Of course, if a man who calls Jesus Lord, Lord, "Hears God's Voice" and still hardens his heart, his judgment is already been made by God, our job is not to judge one another, but to speak truth one to another, even to the weak in faith, as Paul teaches both Jew and Gentile.

Eph. 4: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

This "Being renewed in the spirit of ones mind, and putting on the New Man, which after God (Not this man or that man) "is created in righteousness and true holiness"

pasifika said:

So who rested on the 7th day in creation in which the Sabbath begins.. isn't Christ Himself?

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That's what the Scripture says after God created the heavens and earth, and created man on the sixth day in His image Gen1:26, He rested on the seventh day and named it the Sabbath. Do you think God was tired and that's why He needed rest? God made the Sabbath day holy- sanctified it for holy use and blessed the Sabbath day. Do you think God needs to make something holy for Himself or is He already holy? After He did this on the seventh day and just created man, what did man do on the very first Sabbath when God rested from His works, after God created them in His image and likeness?