Sabbath Keeping and The Gospel

tall73 said:

But moreover, my view is certainly not something I invented,

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I never claim you invented your own view. Just that it is not one of the two dominant views in the Sabbath debate , that oppose each other.
hint: even when aspects of your view are flatly opposed by the antiSabbath group here, you are stone silent.

tall73 said:

and is quite old:

Justin Martyr Dialoge with Trypho​

Moreover, all those righteous men already mentioned, though they kept no Sabbaths, were pleasing to God; and after them Abraham with all his descendants until Moses​

​

Irenaeus Against Heresies​

And that man was not justified by these things, but that they were given as a sign to the people, this fact shows, that Abraham himself, without circumcision and without observance of Sabbaths, “believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of​

God.”​

​

Tertullian An Answer to the Jews​

Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised, and inobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering Him sacrifices, uncircumcised and inobservant of the Sabbath, was by Him commended; while He accepted what he was offering in simplicity of heart, and reprobated the sacrifice of his brother Cain, who was not rightly dividing what he was offering. Noah also, uncircumcised--yes, and inobservant of the Sabbath--God freed from the deluge. For Enoch, too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and in-observant of the Sabbath, He translated from this world; who did not first taste death, in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might by this time show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God. Melchizedek also, "the priest of the most high God," uncircumcised and inobservant of the Sabbath, was chosen to the priesthood of God. Lot, withal, the brother of Abraham, proves that it was for the merits of righteousness, without observance of the law, that he was freed from the conflagration of the Sodomites. But Abraham, was circumcised. Yes, but he pleased God before his circumcision; nor yet did he observe the Sabbath. For he had "accepted" circumcision; but such as was to be for "a sign" of that time, not for a prerogative title to salvation.​

And this is certainly not new information to you. For instance, in 2021 you saw these same quotes

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I never deny your nonBible sources exist

tall73 said:

The history of how Sunday worship came about

Ten Reasons Why the Sabbath is Not Jewish 1) Adam and Eve were not Jewish. “God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it” (Genesis 2:3) before sin entered. “Sanctified” means “to be set apart for holy use.” The only ones in the Garden of Eden for whom the Sabbath was “set apart” were Adam and...

www.christianforums.com

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Interesting statement from 2021

Question for you , how often in that thread that you inserted here , do you see yourself giving a defense for the common ground view that is in harmony with both Sabbath keeping and nonSabbath groups that I keep referencing , that is being challenged?

tall73 said:

And I am also in that thread plainly arguing against Sunday sacredness as a Sabbath.

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But do you defend your own view (as you claimed it here) that
The actual 7th day Sabbath originated in Eden, Given to all mankind, still the 7th day of the week (
IE the details you say on this thread that you affirm like me/??

tall73 said:

(Though I do think they were assembling on the first day of the week at times for distinctive Christian worship)

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No doubt "Every day" in Acts 2 would include the first day of the week.
So even you admit that here is no weekly first day worship services mentioned in the NT?
Odd how seldom we see you make that point

tall73 said:

But either way your framing around recent confessions totally undercuts your own minority views

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Not in real life
In real life have some common ground with the opposing side "is not a bad thing"

tall73 said:

It shows my view goes back to early times. Meanwhile in that thread your talking about how because RC Sproul and Moody beleive something, that their view and your view are the only ones. It is absurd.

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I argue that the classic Sabbath debate in Christianity can be seen in the confessions of faith, belief statements, catechisms of the main Christian groups. And of course even ChristianityToday states that Adventists are the fifth largest Christian denomination (now at 24 million). And AI admits that we are the largest single denomination that holds to Sola Scriptura

by contrast , you leave it to the Sabbath keepers here to defend points of the Sabbath that even you agree with rather than contributing.

What is worse, we seldom get to the basic points of difference in the classic Sabbath debate (the Both sides that are on record), because we are stuck defending those points on the Sabbath that even you agree with when discussing with the antiSabbath group here. Points that you are not here to defend even though it agrees with your own POV.

BobRyan said:

I never claim you invented your own view. Just that it is not one of the two dominant views in the Sabbath debate , that oppose each other.

hint: even when aspects of your view are flatly opposed by the antiSabbath group here, you are stone silent.

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I have addressed my view with those who interacted, regardless of what side of the debate they are on. And there are certainly more than two sides.

BobRyan said:

I never deny your nonBible sources exist

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No, you just frame the debate as with only two views, even though you know better, and now you admit you know better.

BobRyan said:

Interesting statement from 2021

Question for you , how often in that thread that you inserted here , do you see yourself giving a defense for the common ground view that is in harmony with both Sabbath keeping and nonSabbath groups that I keep referencing , that is being challenged?

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Bob, you are asking how often I argue your view instead of my own? No, I don't do that often. And it is a silly question.

BobRyan said:

But do you defend your own view (as you claimed it here) that
The actual 7th day Sabbath originated in Eden

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If by that you mean the sign given to Israel refers back to God stopping His creative work on the 7th Day in Eden, (as well as redemption from Egypt, and a sign of sanctification) I have stated that.

If you mean that the Sabbath command was given in Eden to Adam, and was given to all mankind, I have argued against that, the historical quotes you just admitted you are aware of argued against that, and you just responded to a number of my arguments against that.

BobRyan said:

, Given to all mankind,

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Since you just responded to posts by me saying the opposite, and just acknowledged historical quotes from early centuries, provided by me saying the opposite, and acknowledge that I don't hold to the two main views that do hold to that, your statement that I do hold to that makes no sense.

BobRyan said:

still the 7th day of the week

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I have stated that.

BobRyan said:

Not in real life
In real life have some common ground with the opposing side "is not a bad thing"

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Take that up with your "other side". I don't hold either of those two views, so you don't have that common ground with me. And I am not going to argue for your view, when I don't hold it.

BobRyan said:

I argue that the classic Sabbath debate in Christianity can be seen in the confessions of faith, belief statements, catechisms of the main Christian groups. And of course even ChristianityToday states that Adventists are the fifth largest Christian denomination (now at 24 million). And AI admits that we are the largest single denomination that holds to Sola Scriptura

by contrast , you leave it to the Sabbath keepers here to defend points of the Sabbath that even you agree with rather than contributing.

What is worse, we seldom get to the basic points of difference in the classic Sabbath debate (the Both sides that are on record), because we are stuck defending those points on the Sabbath that even you agree with when discussing with the antiSabbath group here. Points that you are not here to defend even though it agrees with your own POV.

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Bob, I am sorry you cannot get those who have all this common ground with you to discuss your common ground. Maybe they don't think you have as much in common as you hope.

Maybe they are aware there are more than two views too, and you need a new conversation starter.

Here Bob, since you want me to promote your conversation, I will make an exception and do so:

BobRyan said:

What is worse, we seldom get to the basic points of difference in the classic Sabbath debate (the Both sides that are on record), because we are stuck defending those points on the Sabbath that even you agree with when discussing with the antiSabbath group here. Points that you are not here to defend even though it agrees with your own POV.

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For those having trouble understanding what Bob is driving at here, He would appear to desire to be able to talk about how the Roman Catholic church replaced the 7th-day Sabbath with a Sunday Sabbath, because of tradition, rather than answer why Scriptures point out

• The Sabbath was a sign given to Israel
• The Sabbath had sacrifices associated with it
• The Sabbath was an appointed time for Israel
• The OT background to Col. 2 shows that the listing of appointed times in Col. 2 refers back to similar lists in Numbers 28, 29, and especially the parallel shorter listing of Ezekiel 45:17, which included the weekly Sabbath
• Romans 14 is very broad in speaking about people esteeming days, and that it is a disputable matter not to judge regarding.

If anyone wants to talk to Bob about how the Catholic church replaced the Sabbath with Sunday, feel free. Bob even has many threads on the topic, and he really hopes you will.

Because then he can talk about human tradition, instead of answering why some of these Bible texts don't match up with his talking points.

SabbathBlessings said:

People teach proselyte to mean Gentiles that converted to Judaism, when its not what the Scriptures teach.

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Well lets look at the four NT uses and see:

Speaking of Gentile converts to Judaism by the Pharisees:

Describes people from all over that are both Jews AND proselytes, there for Pentecost. Which by the way, the text also says they were from every nation under heaven, the point you were disputing regarding the house of prayer for all nations.

But that house was about to be leveled per Jesus because the leaders had turned it into a den of thieves, and it was left to them desolate, because they didn't know the time of their visitation.


The seven chosen to help with the distribution of food to Hellenistic widows have Grecian names, and one is a proselyte.

When Paul and Barnabas preached in the synagogue they found Gentiles, Jews, and proselytes already there.

SabbathBlessings said:

It describes someone who has “come over” to faith. Basically it is a Gentile Christian who follows God and God's people join themselves to Him and serve God

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Except in three of the cases the people were not Christians yet, and in the other the point was that he was a convert to Judaism with a Greek background to better serve the Hellenistic widows.

tall73 said:

Yes, that was fine. I was not indicating that the Gentile could not keep the Sabbath when in the gates of Israel. Actually they had to. I was just noting that it is referring to those in Israel.

But in the case of the Passover, for instance, they couldn't just join in. They had to be circumcised, and then they could participate like the native born:

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Thanks for the posting tips, I'll surely keep them in mind

But the Stranger volunteered to adopt the Commandment, in belief of the God of Abraham, no different than the Jewish slaves and servants coming out of Egypt, Yes? God didn't "force" any of these people to join Him. It was a voluntary humility for both Jew and Gentile. Some stayed in Egypt, some followed Moses. There was a change, a repentance if you will, required by God, which is still His Policy according to Scriptures.

Remember, they were all strangers in Egypt, not Homeborn, according to the commandment.

These Parables and Stories were written for us as examples, and for our admonition. For our sakes no doubt. Consider Paul's words on the Law of Moses.

1 Cor. 9: 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Does God care for oxen, or was this Law written to teach us an important lesson from God.

Would the Law of Circumcision not to be viewed the same?

Does God care about the lose skin of a man's penis? Or saith it altogether for our sakes. I think it was written "for our sakes no doubt". The word Circumcise is used in the Torah 6 times. 3 of those 6 times were in reference to "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart".

Don't you think that was the lesson God was promoting? Certainly Jesus did, and Paul, and no doubt Zacharias. I would say anyone who Yielded themselves to God understood true circumcision, as Paul explained it. But the Priests and Pharisees that were in charge of the temple in the city of David were not Faithful to God. They were children of the devil. They didn't know God nor did they believe Moses. If they had believed, they would have known Jesus, and would have known circumcision.

As Paul teaches, "For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision."

And again: For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

And again: For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

So then, what Paul is teaching has always been the case in my view, for all those examples of faithful men, who worshipped God in the spirit. It was always God's truth. And to have your 8 day old child circumcised, is not a test of faith for the child, but for the parent. And it is indeed profitable for the child and the parent, if they "Yield themselves" to God. But if they don't, then that circumcision availeth nothing, their sabbaths mean nothing, their tithes mean nothing, their sacrifices mean nothing, Passover meant nothing.

Isn't this what Paul tries to tell us in 1 Cor. 10: "4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

They were circumcised, but not after the manner of Moses.

tall73 said:

Exodus 12:48-49​

48 And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. 49 One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you.” (NKJV)​

This is the background to Acts 15 where we see the Pharisee contingent among the Christians saying that the Gentiles must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses:

Acts 15:5​

5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (NKJV)​

They wanted them to be circumcised and to keep all the law of Israel, because that is what strangers would do before if they were fully joining the Lord, the covenant, the assembly.

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That is what you and I are taught by the religions of this world God placed us in. But to believe this popular religious philosophy, I would have to believe that God was obsessed with the lose skin of a man's penis, in the Torah. That the first thing God does when HE met a man, was to pull his pants down to see of he had truly joined himself to the Lord.

I would have to believe that the Levite Priests walked around flashing themselves to the people to show their credentials. I would have to completely ignore God's repeated command to circumcise the foreskin of the heart. And the worse thing, I would have to believe the insidious lie that the Pharisees were trying to get the Disciples and the New Converts, just as they did the Disciples fathers, to obey God's Commandments.

To believe these things, I would have to completely reject, as a false teaching, all of the Christ's Words that HE used to define the Pharisees religion in relationship to God's Laws. I would have to deny the entire Law and Prophets, including it's teaching on God's Circumcision.

What if God's message concerning Circumcision, was always about the heart?

Duet. 10: 16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Were these men's lose skin around the penis not already circumcised? Why didn't the Pharisees incorporate these words of God though Moses?

Isn't this the Circumcision needed "to keep the Law of God that HE gave to Moses"?

No my friend, the Pharisees were not trying to place God's Laws on the necks of the Gentiles, or the Disciples nor the Disciples fathers. They did "bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders", but this burden was not God's Laws that HE gave Moses.

Consider Acts 15 again, and note that the Disciples were turning the Gentile's away from the commandments of men the Pharisees taught for doctrines. And turned them away from their traditions that full well rejected the commandments of God. And where did the Disciples lead those which from among the Gentiles are turned to God"? You can read it for yourself.

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (Law of Moses) and from fornication, (Law of Moses) and from things strangled, (Law of Moses) and from blood. (Law of Moses)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city "them that preach him", being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

And isn't this the exact same instruction that Jesus Himself gave to the Multitudes and His Disciples before they murdered Him? Let's take a look.

Matt. 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, "that observe and do"; but do not ye after their works: for they say, (Promote the Law of Moses) and "do not".

4 For they (Not God, as many preach in the world God placed us in) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Isn't this the Yoke Peter spoke about in Acts 15 that neither they nor their fathers could bear?

I'll ponder on the rest of your great post, and reply later. Remember, we are warned about the religion of this world. I think we are better served when we study with an open mind, willing to accept correction and instruction in righteousness. After all, isn't that the purpose of the Holy Scriptures?

2 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I said: it is strange that you say we go by Scripture, then you bring up all these things outside of Scripture.



You changed that to:

I said it is strange that you say we go by Scripture

BobRyan said:

Well you need to rethink that

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Bob, do you think bearing false witness regarding my statements is a good way to promote the ten commandments?

BobRyan said:

A good chapter to find no reference at all to the Gen 2:2-3 holy day called "Sabbath" in Ex 20:11

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Romans 14 is a good chapter that makes a broad statement about observing holy times, in a church with Gentiles and Jews. It is a problem for you that he did not limit it.

BobRyan said:

Col 2 is condemning Gnosticism "making stuff up", inventing ways to judge other etc
It is not deleting scripture or telling anyone that some scripture is evil.

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There are indeed indications of a proto-gnostic teaching here, as we see indications of in I John, the Corinthian correspondence, etc.

However, what Paul is warning about is any influence that would distract them from Christ. They are complete in Him.

So he begins by saying:


So whether it is gnostic teaching, philosophy, or people indicating they need to be circumcised in the flesh, or judging them regarding appointed times, or promoting worship of angels, or asceticism, they all are a distraction from Christ. They already have what they need.

Moreover, Paul doesn't just refer to false teachings. He makes positive statements. He says the appointed times are shadows that point to Christ. That is Paul's teaching. Not that they are blotted out. They are present tense shadows pointing to Christ. And the OT background is Numbers 28 and 29, and Ezekiel 45:17 especially, which included the weekly Sabbath.

tall73 said:

Well lets look at the four NT uses and see:

Speaking of Gentile converts to Judaism by the Pharisees:

Matthew 23:15​

15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. (NKJV)​

​

Describes people from all over that are both Jews AND proselytes, there for Pentecost. Which by the way, the text also says they were from every nation under heaven, the point you were disputing regarding the house of prayer for all nations.

But that house was about to be leveled per Jesus because the leaders had turned it into a den of thieves, and it was left to them desolate, because they didn't know the time of their visitation.

Acts 2:8-12​

8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” 12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?” (NKJV)​

​

The seven chosen to help with the distribution of food to Hellenistic widows have Grecian names, and one is a proselyte.

Acts 6:5-6​

5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch, 6 whom they set before the apostles; and when they had prayed, they laid hands on them. (NKJV)​

​

When Paul and Barnabas preached in the synagogue they found Gentiles, Jews, and proselytes already there.

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Acts 13:42-43​

42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. (NKJV)​

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Except in three of the cases the people were not Christians yet, and in the other the point was that he was a convert to Judaism with a Greek background to better serve the Hellenistic widows.

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Thank you for that.

So by your own post it is Gentile's who are asking for more preaching on the Sabbath. With both Jews and proselytes which is exactly what Jesus predicted

Isa 56:6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

All nations was never only proselytes, or only Jews, or only Gentiles, but exactly what Jesus said everyone who loves and joins themselves to Christ and keeps His Sabbath.

SabbathBlessings said:

Thank you for that.

So by your own post it is Gentile's who are asking for more preaching on the Sabbath. With both Jews and proselytes which is exactly what Jesus predicted

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It is Jews, Gentiles and Proselytes who are in attendance at a synagogue and they want to hear more about Jesus, That is not the fulfillment of Isaiah 56. But it is a very good thing.

Isaiah predicted worship with burnt offerings, at the temple, which would be a house of prayer for all nations.


And it was. Isaiah indicated judgment for the people, the city, the temple, but then restoration. He would "gather the outcasts of Israel" and "gather to Him others besides".

And He did that. Worshipers at the pilgrimage feast from every nation under heaven gathered to worship as He commanded they do three times in the year, Jews and proselytes. (And as my earlier post noted, even some Gentiles that were not formal proselytes). The new temple was even more glorious than the former, and was a house of prayer for the nations. God fulfilled His promises to restore and expand Israel.



But Jesus did not say that this period would then extend into the current time. Quite the opposite:


The temple that was the house of prayer to the nations had been turned into a den of thieves. It soon would be leveled. The expansion that Isaiah saw for that temple had an end point because the temple itself was coming to and end.

Not only would it be destroyed in 70 AD, but it was already left to them (the religious leaders) desolate.


Just as God's glory departed the temple in the time of Ezekiel, because of the sins of the people and the impending judgment, Jesus said "your house" (no longer His, but theirs, a den of theives instead of its intended house of prayer) is left to you desolate. Because He has now left that temple.

Jesus likewise said a change was coming in that they would neither worship in Jerusalem or Mt. Gerizim, but would worship in spirit and truth:

tall73 said:

It is Jews, Gentiles and Proselytes who are in attendance at a synagogue and they want to hear more about Jesus, That is not the fulfillment of Isaiah 56. But it is a very good thing.

Isaiah predicted worship with burnt offerings, at the temple, which would be a house of prayer for all nations.

Isaiah 56:1-8​

1 Thus says the LORD:​

“Keep justice, and do righteousness,​

For My salvation is about to come,​

And My righteousness to be revealed.​

2 Blessed is the man who does this,​

And the son of man who lays hold on it;​

Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,​

And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”​

3 Do not let the son of the foreigner​

Who has joined himself to the LORD​

Speak, saying,​

“The LORD has utterly separated me from His people”;​

Nor let the eunuch say,​

“Here I am, a dry tree.”​

4 For thus says the LORD:​

“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,​

And choose what pleases Me,​

And hold fast My covenant,​

5 Even to them I will give in My house​

And within My walls a place and a name​

Better than that of sons and daughters;​

I will give them an everlasting name​

That shall not be cut off.​

6 “Also the sons of the foreigner​

Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him,​

And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants—​

Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,​

And holds fast My covenant—​

7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,​

And make them joyful in My house of prayer.​

Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices​

Will be accepted on My altar;​

For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”​

8 The Lord GOD, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,​

“Yet I will gather to him​

Others besides those who are gathered to him.” (NKJV)​

And it was. Isaiah indicated judgment for the people, the city, the temple, but then restoration. He would "gather the outcasts of Israel" and "gather to Him others besides".

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That's right because there is just one nation of people under God, He gathers the outcasts into one nation. John 10:16 Those with faith and hear His voice and follows Him and no one else. Those with faith stay in a covenant relationship with Him, they hold fast His covenant, not toss it aside as soon as someone else comes along and tries to tear it down.

tall73 said:

And He did that. Worshipers at the pilgrimage feast from every nation under heaven gathered to worship as He commanded they do three times in the year, Jews and proselytes. (And as my earlier post noted, even some Gentiles that were not formal proselytes). The new temple was even more glorious than the former, and was a house of prayer for the nations. God fulfilled His promises to restore and expand Israel.

Acts 2:5-12​

5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” 12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?” (NKJV)​

But Jesus did not say that this period would then extend into the current time. Quite the opposite:

Luke 19:41-46​

41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.” 45 Then He went into the temple and began to drive out those who bought and sold in it, 46 saying to them, “It is written, My house is a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a den of thieves.’ ” (NKJV)​

​

Mark 11:17​

17 Then He taught, saying to them, “Is it not written, My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations’? But you have made it a den of thieves.’ ” (NKJV)​

The temple that was the house of prayer to the nations had been turned into a den of thieves. It soon would be leveled. The expansion that Isaiah saw for that temple had an end point because the temple itself was coming to and end.

Not only would it be destroyed in 70 AD, but it was already left to them (the religious leaders) desolate.

Matthew 23:38-39​

8 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’ ” (NKJV)​

Just as God's glory departed the temple in the time of Ezekiel, because of the sins of the people and the impending judgment, Jesus said "your house" (no longer His, but theirs, a den of theives instead of its intended house of prayer) is left to you desolate. Because He has now left that temple.

Jesus likewise said a change was coming in that they would neither worship in Jerusalem or Mt. Gerizim, but would worship in spirit and truth:

John 4:19-23​

19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”​

21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. (NKJV)​

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Jesus taught the Gentiles that those who love and serve Him, that join themselves to Christ (not Israel, not an earthy temple, but to HIM) and hold fast His covenant and keep His Sabbath, He will bring them to His holy mountain and house of prayer, only for you to say God destroyed it and it dismantled everything God promised. Sabbath-keeping wasn't tied to only Jerusalem like the feast days, it was kept for many generations, in every city on every Sabbath Acts 15:21.

None of the verses you quoted dismantles what God said in Isa 56:6-7 its really seem more like a distraction from what God promised so plainly to everyone who hears and does, His words, not anyone else.

God said Remember, there will always be people who teach the opposite, its a matter of which voice one is going to stay faithful to.

SabbathBlessings said:

Jesus taught the Gentiles that those who love and serve Him, that join themselves to Christ (not Israel, not an earthy temple, but to HIM) and hold fast His covenant and keep His Sabbath, He will bring them to His holy mountain and house of prayer, only for you to say God destroyed it and it dismantled everything God promised.

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God already fulfilled what He promised regarding restoring the people and the temple. And then it became a den of thieves. And Jesus was the one who said this about that temple, not me:

tall73 said:

God already fulfilled what He promised regarding restoring the people and the temple. And then it became a den of thieves. And Jesus was the one who said this about that temple, not me:

Luke 19:41-46​

41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.” 45 Then He went into the temple and began to drive out those who bought and sold in it, 46 saying to them, “It is written, My house is a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a den of thieves.’ ” (NKJV)​

​

Mark 11:17​

17 Then He taught, saying to them, “Is it not written, My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations’? But you have made it a den of thieves.’ ” (NKJV)​

John 4:19-23​

19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”​

21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. (NKJV)​

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He said His house of prayer would be a house for ALL NATIONS- so basically you are saying He failed at His prophecy. He quoted from this prophecy which made it current in His time (previously you indicated it was in the past) , but it was a future prophecy that was fulfilled as we see plainly Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts18:4 and still to come Isa 66:22-23 because God never wants us to give up our covenant relationship with Him which includes Sabbath-keeping. Isa 56:6 Its not Jesus who does not want us to join ourselves to Him and serve Him, so we need to figure which side of this battle we are on. If we are not yielding ourselves servants to Christ, who are we serving Rom6:16KJV

There is no other time we see both Jews and Gentiles and all nations coming together on the Sabbath until Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts18:4

Studyman said:

Thanks for the posting tips, I'll surely keep them in mind

But the Stranger volunteered to adopt the Commandment, in belief of the God of Abraham, no different than the Jewish slaves and servants coming out of Egypt, Yes? God didn't "force" any of these people to join Him.

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I agree that God did not force those who left Egypt, or those who willingly joined themselves to Him.

However, the Sabbath command indicates that the stranger in the gates was to keep the Sabbath.

Studyman said:

These Parables and Stories were written for us as examples, and for our admonition. For our sakes no doubt. Consider Paul's words on the Law of Moses.

1 Cor. 9: 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Does God care for oxen, or was this Law written to teach us an important lesson from God.

Would the Law of Circumcision not to be viewed the same?

Does God care about the lose skin of a man's penis? Or saith it altogether for our sakes. I think it was written "for our sakes no doubt". The word Circumcise is used in the Torah 6 times. 3 of those 6 times were in reference to "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart".

Don't you think that was the lesson God was promoting?

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I certainly think God wanted circumcision of the heart, foremost, yes.

However, it sounds like He also indicated actual circumcision at times.

Your contention is that the required circumcision was teaching a larger lesson, as in the case of the ox treading out the grain, correct?


Regarding the rest, still reviewing. Hit post before I was ready.

I don't think I am going to respond yet overly much. I want to make sure I am understanding the view you are presenting for consideration. So I may ask some clarifying questions, etc.

Studyman said:

No my friend, the Pharisees were not trying to place God's Laws on the necks of the Gentiles, or the Disciples nor the Disciples fathers. They did "bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders", but this burden was not God's Laws that HE gave Moses.

Consider Acts 15 again, and note that the Disciples were turning the Gentile's away from the commandments of men the Pharisees taught for doctrines. And turned them away from their traditions that full well rejected the commandments of God. And where did the Disciples lead those which from among the Gentiles are turned to God"? You can read it for yourself.

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (Law of Moses) and from fornication, (Law of Moses) and from things strangled, (Law of Moses) and from blood. (Law of Moses)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city "them that preach him", being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

And isn't this the exact same instruction that Jesus Himself gave to the Multitudes and His Disciples before they murdered Him? Let's take a look.

Matt. 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, "that observe and do"; but do not ye after their works: for they say, (Promote the Law of Moses) and "do not".

4 For they (Not God, as many preach in the world God placed us in) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Isn't this the Yoke Peter spoke about in Acts 15 that neither they nor their fathers could bear?

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Regarding the requirements stated, there are certainly a number of views. I am not sure which you hold to, or even if you hold to one I am unfamiliar with.

So are you taking the requirements to be:

• Noahide laws
• Some laws from the law of Moses, but not all
• A part for whole listing that means to keep all the law of Moses
• Regulations that would make synagogue worship together more bearable.
• Some other interpretation

And if you could please give some of the reason why.

Moreover, could you relate this to Acts 21, where the decision of the council is again referenced?

Thank you.

SabbathBlessings said:

He said His house of prayer would be a house for ALL NATIONS- so basically you are saying He failed at His prophecy.

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Isaiah prophesied that. It was fulfilled. I quoted from Acts 2 showing those from Pentecost from every nation under heaven, there to assemble before the Lord during the pilgrim feast of Pentecost.

Jesus quoted it and said they had turned that house of prayer into a den of thieves and it would now be destroyed, that it was left to them desolate, and that the time was coming when true worshipers would worship neither there or Mt. Gerizim.

SabbathBlessings said:

He quoted from this prophecy which made it current in His time

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He quoted it to note its fulfillment already, and He decreed the temple spoken of was destined for destruction and was already left to them desolate.

SabbathBlessings said:

but it was a future prophecy that was fulfilled as we see plainly Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts18:4

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People gathering at the house of the Lord for burnt offering was not fulfilled there.

• They were not approaching for burnt offerings
• They were not at the temple
• They were not at the place that Jesus applied the prophecy to, and which would soon not be a place.

SabbathBlessings said:

There is no other time we see both Jews and Gentiles and all nations coming together on the Sabbath until Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts18:4

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People were coming from all nations of heaven to worship, per Acts. This had been going on for a while following the exile and regathering.

I am not sure why you think that didn't ever happen on the Sabbath. The Sabbath would have been the day before this, for that matter. But the temple referred to in the prophecy was going to end soon because the temple was left desolate, and would be destroyed.

tall73 said:

Isaiah prophesied that. It was fulfilled. I quoted from Acts 2 showing those from Pentecost from every nation under heaven, there to assemble before the Lord during the pilgrim feast of Pentecost.

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Are you saying Pentecost was on the Sabbath?

tall73 said:

Jesus quoted it and said they had turned that house of prayer into a den of thieves and it would now be destroyed, that it was left to them desolate, and that the time was coming when true worshipers would worship neither there or Mt. Gerizim.

He quoted it to note its fulfillment already, and He decreed the temple spoken of was destined for destruction and was already left to them desolate.

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Isaiah does not promise the permanence of a building.
It promises access to God. Joining oneself to the LORD. Those who do, shows obedience to Him and keeps His Sabbath. Thus saith the LORD Isa 56:6-7

Look what happens next in redemptive history:

Acts 8 – Ethiopian eunuch (Isa 56 explicitly mentions eunuchs)
Acts 10 – Gentiles receive the Spirit
Acts 15 – Gentiles included without becoming Jews
Ephesians 2:19–22 – Gentiles are now members of God’s household
1 Peter 2:5 – believers are the spiritual house

If Isaiah 56 were voided, these developments make no sense.

tall73 said:

People gathering at the house of the Lord for burnt offering was not fulfilled there.

• They were not approaching for burnt offerings
• They were not at the temple
• They were not at the place that Jesus applied the prophecy to, and which would soon not be a place.

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There are other sacrifices in the NT that have nothing to do with earthy temple sacrifices.

tall73 said:

People were coming from all nations of heaven to worship, per Acts. This had been going on for a while following the exile and regathering.

I am not sure why you think that didn't ever happen on the Sabbath. The Sabbath would have been the day before this, for that matter. But the temple referred to in the prophecy was going to end soon because the temple was left desolate, and would be destroyed.

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Jesus never said Isa 56 no longer applies. He says it was violated. You are reading your own words into what God said. If Isaiah 56 were obsolete, Jesus would not cite it as the standard Israel had failed to uphold.

You are trying to make the Sabbath being tied to the Jerusalem temple but its not, the feast days were, not the weekly Sabbath that continued on every Sabbath with both Jews and Gentiles just as Jesus said.

Acts 15:21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Tell me when should Gentiles ever want to un-join themselves to Christ and stop being His servant and not hold fast to His covenant?

SabbathBlessings said:

Are you saying Pentecost was on the Sabbath?

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Since I said the Sabbath was the day before, no. I am saying that people coming from all nations had been happening for some time.

SabbathBlessings said:

Isaiah does not promise the permanence of a building.
It promises access to God. Joining oneself to the LORD. Those who do, shows obedience to Him and keeps His Sabbath. Thus saith the LORD Isa 56:6-7

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Actually it does speak of the temple. And the context is the new temple after the destruction of the first. The new would be a house of prayer for all nations. That happened.


Holy mountain, house of prayer, burnt offerings and sacrifices, those are about the temple. And Jesus applies it to the temple.

SabbathBlessings said:

Look what happens next in redemptive history:

Acts 8 – Ethiopian eunuch (Isa 56 explicitly mentions eunuchs)

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Yes, the Ethiopian who was already returning from worshipping at Jerusalem. And the Lord sent Philip to make sure He knew of Jesus, as He was seeking the Lord.

SabbathBlessings said:

Acts 10 – Gentiles receive the Spirit
Acts 15 – Gentiles included without becoming Jews

Ephesians 2:19–22 – Gentiles are now members of God’s household
1 Peter 2:5 – believers are the spiritual house

If Isaiah 56 were voided, these developments make no sense.

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Of course they make sense. The prophecy of Isaiah was already fulfilled, not voided. And Jesus said they would not worship at the temple any longer, but would worship in Spirit and truth.

So the coming of the Spirit upon the Gentiles, the Spirit prompting Philip to go up to the chariot, the Gentiles being members of His household, etc all make sense.

You have ignored the elements pointing to assembly at the sanctuary, in the prophecy of Isaiah, and Jesus' actual application of the passage regarding the Sanctuary which was soon to be destroyed.

SabbathBlessings said:

There are other sacrifices in the NT that have nothing to do with earthy temple sacrifices.

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But the ones in the prophecy did:

SabbathBlessings said:

Jesus never said Isa 56 no longer applies. He says it was violated. You are reading your own words into what God said. If Isaiah 56 were obsolete, Jesus would not cite it as the standard Israel had failed to uphold

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The standard for the temple which He referenced to be a house of prayer for all nations? The standard for the temple that was now to be destroyed and was desolate? Your statement doesn't fit the prophecy or His words.

SabbathBlessings said:

You are trying to make the Sabbath being tied to the Jerusalem temple

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Actually, no I am not.
I didn't say the Sabbath ended.

I posted that the the Jewish Christians were keeping all the law of Moses, and were zealous for it, years after the cleansing of the temple in Acts 21

I am trying to point out the prophecy that Isaiah made was already fulfilled. And Jesus acknowledged that.

SabbathBlessings said:

but its not, the feast days were, not the weekly Sabbath that continued on every Sabbath with both Jews and Gentiles just as Jesus said.

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They continued keeping all of them.

SabbathBlessings said:

Acts 15:21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

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Right, Moses has many who preach him. What does that have to do with the prophecy of Isaiah 57?

I will repeat again, the Jewish Christians were keeping all the law. Even the parts you don't, Including the Sabbath.

SabbathBlessings said:

Tell me when should Gentiles ever want to un-join themselves to Christ and stop being His servant and not hold fast to His covenant?

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Of course they should never. But Gentiles didn't have to join themselves to the Jewish appointed times to start with to be complete in Him.

Hence, they were not to let anyone judge them on those.

tall73 said:

Since I said the Sabbath was the day before, no. I am saying that people coming from all nations had been happening for some time.

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Than that couldn't be the prophecy, and do you have a verse for your claim Pentecost was on the first day?

tall73 said:

​

Actually it does speak of the temple. And the context is the new temple after the destruction of the first. The new would be a house of prayer for all nations. That happened.

​

Isaiah 56:7​

7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,​

And make them joyful in My house of prayer.​

Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices​

Will be accepted on My altar;​

For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.” (NKJV)​

Holy mountain, house of prayer, burnt offerings and sacrifices, those are about the temple. And Jesus applies it to the temple.

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That's not what I said... here is what I said...

Isaiah does not promise the permanence of a building.

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Can you show me in the NT where Jesus alter was in Jerusalem? Its speaking of spiritual sacrifices - His alter is in heaven in His Temple, not made with hands, this is future prophecy after the Cross, when both Jews and Gentiles and all nations keeps the Sabbath together, which we see plainly Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts 18:4. Christ didn't become our High Priest until after the Cross, the veil on the earthy temple was torn at His death where animal sacrifices were no longer a requirement they all pointed to Him now. His alter and His work is in heaven Rev8:3 Heb8:1-2 Sacrifices are spiritual.

tall73 said:

Yes, the Ethiopian who was already returning from worshipping at Jerusalem. And the Lord sent Philip to make sure He knew of Jesus, as He was seeking the Lord.







You have ignored the elements pointing to assembly at the sanctuary, in the prophecy of Isaiah, and Jesus' actual application of the passage regarding the Sanctuary which was soon to be destroyed.

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You have ignored that this prophecy ties to Sabbath keeping Isa 56:6-7 and it is not tied to Jerusalem. Can you post one verse that says Sabbath-keeping always has to be in Jerusalem? I already showed you it didn't Acts 15:21

tall73 said:

But the ones in the prophecy did:

Isaiah 56:7​

7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,​

And make them joyful in My house of prayer.​

Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices​

Will be accepted on My altar;​

For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.” (NKJV)​

The standard for the temple which He referenced to be a house of prayer for all nations? The standard for the temple that was now to be destroyed and was desolate? Your statement doesn't fit the prophecy or His words.

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No you keep trying to tie this only with Jerusalem temple, and once the temple is destroyed there goes joining oneself to God or serving Him or staying faithful to His covenant and Sabbath-keeping. Nothing supported by Scripture or what actually happened in Scripture. When did Jesus instruct anyone to un-join themsevles from Him?

tall73 said:

What does that have to do with the prophecy of Isaiah 57?

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Because you keep trying to tie Sabbath-keeping with Jerusalem when its not. The Sabbath was being kept for many generations, in every city in the synagogue every Sabbath. Acts 15:21 Also the prophecy is very specific about all nations coming together keeping the Sabbath, you keep trying to point away from everything except what the Scripture is clearly pointing to Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts 18:4

tall73 said:

I will repeat again, the Jewish Christians were keeping all the law. Even the parts you don't, Including the Sabbath.

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You are free to repeat what you want. I am sticking with what Jesus said, the Sabbath is for everyone who wants to join themselves to the LORD and serve Him and love Him and hold fast His covenant. Isa 56:6 Why the Gentiles were keeping every Sabbath with the apostles because it was never just a Jewish thing, its serving the One True God, the way He asks, not the way we want. God's people keep God's commandments and the Sabbath is one of God's commandments written by God spoken by God and God placed the 4th commandment in the same unit He placed to only worship Him or not commit murder. The issue is not with God's laws, its the harden hearts of men.

tall73 said:

Of course they should never. But Gentiles didn't have to join themselves to the Jewish appointed times to start with to be complete in Him.

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You keep re-interpreting the Text. Jesus said nothing about Jewish appointed times in Isa 56:6-7. The Sabbath is the Holy Day of the LORD thus saith the Lord Isa58:13. We are free to serve anyone we want which is shown through our actions Isa 56:6-7 Rom6:16 Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13

SabbathBlessings said:

Than that couldn't be the prophecy,

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The whole point was that thew new temple would be greater than the old, with people from all over the world coming to it, in the restored Israel after the exile, and that was the case for some time. Israel would no longer be in ruins, but would be established, with not only the returned exiles but many people. It was not one event. It was that the Jewish people had scattered out all over the world, and now they, and those they influenced, would return from their exile to come to worship at the temple, in Jerusalem, before the Lord.

SabbathBlessings said:

and do you have a verse for your claim Pentecost was on the first day?

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SabbathBlessings said:

That's not what I said... here is what I said...Isaiah does not promise the permanence of a building.

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And what I said was the prophecy involved the temple in the restored Israel after the exile. And Jesus applies it to that. Nor would I suggest the permanence when I quoted Jesus saying it was about to be the destroyed.

SabbathBlessings said:

Can you show me in the NT where Jesus alter was in Jerusalem? Its speaking of spiritual sacrifices - His alter is in heaven in His Temple, not made with hands, this is future prophecy after the Cross,

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You are the one claiming it is a future prophecy after the cross. The prophecy was stated as future in Isaiah's day, regarding the return of Israelites after exile.

It does not say spiritual sacrifices. It says: Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices Will be accepted on My altar;

There was only ONE sacrifice in the new covenant:

Sacrifices of praise are not burnt offerings

Jesus quoted it to say that the temple was about to be destroyed, and was a den of thieves. He clearly was NOT talking about the temple in heaven being destroyed or being a den of thieves.

SabbathBlessings said:

Can you post one verse that says Sabbath-keeping always has to be in Jerusalem? I already showed you it didn't Acts 15:21

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What? I said already I am not tying Sabbath keeping to the temple, and that the Sabbath is still going today. How would you get this out of what I said?

SabbathBlessings said:

No you keep trying to tie this only with Jerusalem temple, and once the temple is destroyed

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I keep trying to tie it to the particulars of the prophecy, and the context in which Jesus quoted it!