• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Sabbath Keeping and The Gospel

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
15,397
5,972
USA
✟808,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Reviewing the conversation:

It is not just the ten commandments that define sin:​
The two great commandments are not in the ten, but in the "law of Moses", as you put it, which you acknowledge was given by God as well.​
35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”​
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” (NKJV)
Upon these two great principles all the law AND the prophets hang. They are the basis for the rest, not the reverse. Moreover, in the law of Moses we have​
  • warning against favoritism, referenced by James
  • commands against incest, still in effect in I Corinthians 5
  • laws against homosexuality, still in effect in I Corinthians 6
  • laws against kidnapping, and lying referenced in 1 Timothy 1 (as distinct from bearing false witness in a trial. Lying is treated on its own in the law).
Etc.​

You replied:



You continue to get it backwards.
  • The text does not say that the two great commands are a summary of the ten.
  • The text says: 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” (NKJV)
Everything in the law AND the prophets hang on these two commands. They are the two great principles, which all the law and the prophets flow from.

By saying they are the two greatest Jesus puts them above the others. The others hang from them.

  • The law against favoritism flows from them.
  • The law against not stealing flows from them.
  • The law against kidnapping flows from them.
  • The law against incest flows form them
  • The law against taking the Lord's name in vain flows from them.
  • And yes, even the Sabbath flows from them, and the other appointed times.
The law given to Israel (the whole law, all the commands, not just the ten) by God are the embodiment of the two great principles in the particular context, and covenant of the nation of Israel, which He chose for His own glory.
Perhaps, but lets look at it more closely.

Jesus says “on these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets” Matt 22:40

The Greek verb (kremannymi) means to depend on, be supported by, or be summed up in principle — like a door hangs on hinges. The hinges don’t replace the door; they support and explain how it functions.

So the entire Scriptures hangs on these two commandments- love God with all our heart, mind and soul and love our neighbor.

Love is the foundation of the entire Bible.

Love however never went undefined as most people believe. They believe its just a feeling, but its actually a response to the Spirit working within our hearts and that response leads to action. If you love Me, keep My commandments Exo20:6 John14:15 Don't change it because God wrote it and He makes no mistakes- keep it the way I said, lets place our faith fully in Him. Deut4:2 Ecc3:14 Mat5:18-19 Rev22:18-19

Paul very plainly identified the commandments that sum up the Second Greatest commandment to love our neighbor.

Rom 13:9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” [a]“You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” all quoted from the Ten Commandments Exo20:1-17

Its only logical the Greatest Commandments to love God with all our heart mind and soul would come from this same unit, the ones God Himself wrote out and have His name in them on how we are to love him, but its actually what Jesus was quoting verbatim and I can prove it included the Sabbath.

This was after the Ten Commandments was repeated 40 years after God gave them for the Israelite to keep before crossing over to their promised rest, that sadly not everyone made it, for the same reasons we are debating today about. Eze20:13 Eze20:15-16


Deut 6:2 that you may fear the Lord your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. Therefore hear, O Israel, and be careful to observe it, that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly as the Lord God of your fathers has promised you‘a land flowing with milk and honey.’ 4 “Hear, O Israel: [b]The Lord our God, the Lord is one! 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

Why did a whole generation loose their inheritances that was promised to them if they loved God with all their heart, soul and strength and kept His commandments and stayed faithful.


Eze 20:15 So I also raised My hand in an oath to them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, ‘flowing with milk and honey,’ the glory of all lands, 16 because they despised My judgments and did not walk in My statutes, but profaned My Sabbaths; for their heart went after their idols.

They were promised an inheritance of the land flowing with milk and honey if they kept His commandments and loved Him with their whole heart. The lost that inheritance because they disobeyed God and profaned His Sabbaths which God Himself relates to idol worship. The Sabbath has always been part of the greatest commandments to love God with all our heart, mind and soul why God's name on how to love Him are in all four of the commandments of how we are to love God.

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered him, “The [k]first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ [l]This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

The whole Bible teaches us principles of the Ten Commandments- the greatest commandments summed up- how to love God how to love our neighbor.

Why the wisest man in Scripture said this:


Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:

Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.

14 For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil.

And one of the last verses of the Bible before the Revelation of Jesus Christ

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,863
6,197
Visit site
✟1,126,019.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Is kidnapping not stealing? Taking something that doesn’t belong to you. Is incest not part of coveting that comes from lust of the heart that Jesus connected with adultery? There isn’t one sin that doesn’t fall under a category of the Ten Commandments

There were a number of laws that were not expounded upon in the ten. Here are a few.


Leviticus 19:15​
You shall not be partial to the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty. In righteousness you shall judge your neighbor. (NKJV)​
Leviticus 19:32​
32 You shall rise before the gray headed and honor the presence of an old man, and fear your God: I am the LORD. (NKJV)​
Leviticus 25:35​
35 ‘If one of your brethren becomes poor, and falls into poverty among you, then you shall help him, like a stranger or a sojourner, that he may live with you. (NKJV)​
Deuteronomy 22:5​
5 “A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the LORD your God. (NKJV)​
 
Upvote 0

Studyman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,863
786
67
Michigan
✟563,345.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Which was quoted to start with. If they were clean and not on a journey it was.



Yes, like the ceremonial law given to Israel as a sign:
Exodus 31:16-17​
6 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. 17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”​
It was a sin for the stranger in their gates. It does not say it was a sin for those Gentiles outside their gates, who didn't have the Sabbath given to them because they were brought out of Egypt:

But wasn't it a Law of God that if a Gentile chose to sojourn with them, Israel wasn't suppose to vex them?

Lev. 19: 33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

So if a Gentile wanted to sojourn with them in their journey to "their land" in the safety of the refuge inside the gate, were they not to be allowed, as if they were homeborn?

And an Israelite who refused to live inside the gate, would he not be considered the same as a Gentile? If I remember right, the Exodus was a voluntary journey.
Deuteronomy 5:12-15

12 “‘Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant, or your ox or your donkey or any of your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. 15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.​

31 But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them "in the land" which I give them to possess it.
  • The Sabbath is a memorial
  • The Sabbath is an appointed time
  • The Sabbath had sacrifices as the other appointed times
  • The Sabbath is a sign with Israel
  • The Sabbath is to be kept by Israel, throughout their generations.

So then, according to God's Laws;
  • The Sabbath is a memorial, for Israel and the Gentile that Sojourns with them.
  • The Sabbath is an appointed time, for Israel and the Gentile that Sojourns with them.
  • The Sabbath had sacrifices as the other appointed times, for Israel and the Gentile that Sojourns with them.
  • The Sabbath is a sign with Israel, and the Gentile that Sojourns with them.
  • The Sabbath is to be kept by Israel, and the Gentile that Sojourns with them, throughout their generations.
And I think Isaiah confirms this.

Is. 56: 1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

It seems that the Priests in Israel had corrupted the Priesthood Covenant God make with Levi, and had mucked the journey up.

Mal. 2: 4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. 6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity. 7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been "partial in the law".

And God's Name was blasphemed among the heathen outside the gate.

Ez. 36: 20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land. 21But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned "among the heathen", whither they went. 22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

Rom. 22: 22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 24 For the name of God is blasphemed "among the Gentiles" through you, as it is written.

I think "inside the gate" was to be a refuge for all men who Loved the Name of the Lord, but the Priesthood "after the order of Aaron" corrupted themselves and blasphemed God's Name among the heathen. All these things were written for our examples, so that we, who also profess to know God, will not lust after the same disobedience they lusted after.

I really like reading your posts, and your perspective, but felt it prudent to share mine, I hope you don't mind.

In closing, you talk about Gentiles "outside the gate". Rahab was outside the gate, but had not only heard of the God of Abraham, but believed that HE was the one true God. What are the odds that of all the people in that great city of Jericho, it was just a coincidence that God sent Joshua to the One house, where a Gentile lived who wanted to sojourn with Israel.

Great discussion
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
15,397
5,972
USA
✟808,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
There were a number of laws that were not expounded upon in the ten. Here are a few.


Leviticus 19:15​
You shall not be partial to the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty. In righteousness you shall judge your neighbor. (NKJV)​
Leviticus 19:32​
32 You shall rise before the gray headed and honor the presence of an old man, and fear your God: I am the LORD. (NKJV)​
Leviticus 25:35​
35 ‘If one of your brethren becomes poor, and falls into poverty among you, then you shall help him, like a stranger or a sojourner, that he may live with you. (NKJV)​
Deuteronomy 22:5​
5 “A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the LORD your God. (NKJV)​

Jesus magnified the Ten Commandments Mat5:19-30 so its not just the outward part of the commandment it also relates to the inward man, thoughts that lead to sin.

Lev 19:15
“You shall not be partial to the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty. In righteousness you shall judge your neighbor.”

Connects to the 9th Commandment -You shall not bear false witness.

Courtroom justice is directly tied to truthful testimony.
Showing favoritism distorts truth.
Justice must reflect God’s righteousness.

Lev 19:32
“You shall rise before the gray headed and honor the presence of an old man, and fear your God.”

5th Commandment- Honor your father and your mother.

Leviticus 19:32 extends that principle:
Honor is not just for parents
It applies to elders in the community

Lev 25:35
If one of your brethren becomes poor… you shall help him

Not helping a brother or sister in need when we can, starts from greed in the heart which is under the 10th commandment of covetousness

Deut 22:5
A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man…

What's the heart of this issue- coveting an identity that doesn;t belong to you so would fit under covetousness


If we break anything that God asks it automatically breaks the very first commandment placing our needs and desires over God Exo20:3

All of the Ten Commandments are fulfilled in love. They would do no harm to our neighbor and no harm to our God and Savior. Why love is the fulfilling of the law. Love doesn;t replace God's law, its the motive behind it.
 
Upvote 0
Jun 26, 2003
9,079
1,656
Visit site
✟316,635.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
This is nothing about penance, its the day of Atonement - its a once a year annual sabbath, not to be confused with the weekly Sabbath in the 4th commandment.

You're confusing the annual sabbath(s) tied to feast days, animal sacrifices and offerings in the Law of Moses, with the weekly Sabbath in God's Ten Commandments. Exo20:6 Deut4:13 The annual sabbaths can be on any day of the week. The weekly Sabbath in the 4th commandment is always on the seventh day, thus saith the LORD.

This is part of the Testimony of God written by God directly.....He asked us not to change or add anything to His words- because in doing so they lose its power and God's words have power- ours have none.

Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.


So now Bible studies and eating on the Sabbath is not keeping the Sabbath. This sounds like a teaching of the Pharisees, its these type of teachings that have sadly turned people away from keeping God's Sabbath, what Jesus was correcting, the Sabbath has always been about honoring God and keeping our focus on Him Isa 58:13 spending holy and sactified time with our Creator and we most certainly do that through the studying of His word. Eating and fellowship on the Sabbath was never a sin- the Sabbath is a holy convocation Lev23:3 it sadly shows a lot of misunderstandings of God's blessed Sabbath day.
You are misquoting me. I did not say that what you are doing is a sin, merely that the Sabbath is more than fellowship and eating.
Our Lord Jesus Christ is a priest forever in the order of Melchisedech. He offers His body and blood as sacrifice, and we celebrate it in the form of bread and wine. That is the Sabbath. We rest in the presence of God to celebrate His sacrifice for Our Redemption.

Judge for yourself. Should our eyes be on the day, or on the mighty work of salvation by Our Lord Jesus Christ? His sacrifice fulfills the Sabbath.
Leviticus is not speaking of the day of Atonement only. It mentions the first and the eighth day as Sabbaths as well as the ninth day.
How can this be if the Sabbath can only be on the seventh day?
The Bible never says that sacrifice is one and done. If it had, it would not say that Jesus is a priest forever in the order of Melchisedech. Melchisedech offered bread and wine. The bloody animal sacrifices stopped when the Temple was destroyed. Christ offered one bloody sacrifice on the cross, but told us to continue to offer the unbloody sacrifice of bread and wine in perpetuity.
A priest offers sacrifice. If there were no longer need for sacrifice, why would Jesus be made a priest forever in the order of Melchisedech? When He said It is finished on the cross, we can see that He meant the Old covenant was fulfilled, and the bloody sacrifices of the Old covenant were changed to the unbloody sacrifice of bread and wine, which becomes His body and blood at the words of consecration at Mass.

Christ calls us to humility, not presumption. Our consciences must be kept tender by remembrance, not made hard as stone by presumption.
Search the scriptures, we see the Sabbath includes the affliction of our souls, aka penance and consumption of the sacrifice.
In this world, we are in a spiritual battle, our hearts are easily lead astray to take the easy path. This is dangerous because Jesus tells us to strive to enter by the narrow gate, because broad and easy is the way to destruction. Acts 14:21-22 tells us that we must suffer many hardships to enter the kingdom of God.
Do you not hear Jesus words? If anyone come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me. Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you. As to the bread and wine, He says this is my body, this is the blood of the New Covenant . Do this in remembrance of me.
It’s not a remembrance like you are celebrating some silly old man’s 95th birthday. That is just sentimental. It is a continuing remembrance of the sacrifice that He made for us. The proper response to which is penance. How could you look at the bloodied and beaten body of Our Lord, know that your sins caused it, as He willingly endured the passion for you, and not feel sorrow?
The Bible does not say to think oh that sacrifice is in the past, I am good now, the sacrifice is over, so no need to think about it? Do you not see that when we refuse to afflict our souls and examine our conscience it makes our conscience dull? We go so far astray that we no longer know what we are doing, that is human nature.

Do you think penance is evil? If so, in what way?
The Bible says in Psalm 51 that a broken spirit and a contrite heart Lord you will not despise
If you say penance is evil, I refer you to scripture where it says Woe to those that call the evil good and the good evil

Simply put, if you are not afflicting your soul and examining your conscience as well as consuming the sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ, then you are not keeping Sabbath

What you are doing is not sinful. It’s just not Sabbath keeping without penance and sacrifice

I say this not to degrade you or Lord myself over you, rather to invite you to take the narrow path as outlined in Scripture and enter the straight gate, rather than the broad way you are taking.
It is the marriage supper of the Lamb, the Spirit and the Bride say come, whosoever will, drink of the waters of life freely
Jesus says that the first will be last and the last will be first in His kingdom. We all have a place predestined for us in that kingdom. You may be predestined to a higher place than me, but you have to accept the gift of Christ’s sacrifice to get there. He calls you to follow
Do not harden your heart and refuse His offer by saying sacrifice is over and penance not necessary. You are right in insisting that the Sabbath must be kept, but you seem to not know how it should be kept
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,863
6,197
Visit site
✟1,126,019.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
you said it is "strange" that I point out that those here who oppose the Sabbath and the TEN are opposing BOTH sides of the classic "Sabbath debate"
I said a few things.

  • I said it is strange that you say we go by Scripture, then you bring up all these things outside of Scripture.
  • I also said there are more than two views. You are framing it that way rhetorically.
  • I said that you have all kinds of minority positions and don't mind it at all. So I have no idea why you would think what a bunch of people think matters.
  • And I said if you are going to quote me, you should address what I am saying not just talk about what other people say.

I quote them to point out the area were both sides agree and you are a bit out on a limb

You quote them to frame the debate as only two sides. And you know there are other views because you have debated these for years. Seventh-day Sabatarians, and first day Sabbatarians are not the only view. Nor am I out on a limb. First because it is not going out on a limb to discuss Scripture instead of much later confessions.

But moreover, my view is certainly not something I invented, and is quite old:

Justin Martyr Dialoge with Trypho​
Moreover, all those righteous men already mentioned, though they kept no Sabbaths, were pleasing to God; and after them Abraham with all his descendants until Moses​
Irenaeus Against Heresies​
And that man was not justified by these things, but that they were given as a sign to the people, this fact shows, that Abraham himself, without circumcision and without observance of Sabbaths, “believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of​
God.”​
Tertullian An Answer to the Jews​
Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised, and inobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering Him sacrifices, uncircumcised and inobservant of the Sabbath, was by Him commended; while He accepted what he was offering in simplicity of heart, and reprobated the sacrifice of his brother Cain, who was not rightly dividing what he was offering. Noah also, uncircumcised--yes, and inobservant of the Sabbath--God freed from the deluge. For Enoch, too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and in-observant of the Sabbath, He translated from this world; who did not first taste death, in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might by this time show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God. Melchizedek also, "the priest of the most high God," uncircumcised and inobservant of the Sabbath, was chosen to the priesthood of God. Lot, withal, the brother of Abraham, proves that it was for the merits of righteousness, without observance of the law, that he was freed from the conflagration of the Sodomites. But Abraham, was circumcised. Yes, but he pleased God before his circumcision; nor yet did he observe the Sabbath. For he had "accepted" circumcision; but such as was to be for "a sign" of that time, not for a prerogative title to salvation.​

And this is certainly not new information to you. For instance, in 2021 you saw these same quotes


And I am also in that thread plainly arguing against Sunday sacredness as a Sabbath. (Though I do think they were assembling on the first day of the week at times for distinctive Christian worship)

Are you having memory issues? I hope that is not the case.

But either way your framing around recent confessions totally undercuts your own minority views which you get from Scripture.

Do you go by Scripture? Or do you count noses among modern confessions?

It shows your opposition is not to "just me" or even "just Adventists"

It shows my view goes back to early times. Meanwhile in that thread your talking about how because RC Sproul and Moody beleive something, that their view and your view are the only ones. It is absurd.


But a small groups of "no Ten commandments' also exists here on this area of the forum.

Since my view is not that the ten commandments don't exist, you can discuss that with them.


This forum is loaded with antiSabbath threads that even you do not agree with. Yet... do we ever see you posting "some light" on those threads given what you have stated that the TEN were not deleted?

I have many times. In fact, in a recent thread @Hentenza had to point out that was my position, because I was being accused by an Adventist that I was saying the commandments were removed.

And the one I just linked to also contains such.

And more could of course be added. Here is another from 2023 where we talked at length, including this post:


I say in that thread that Sunday is not a Sabbath. That the Sabbath did not end at the cross, etc.

You were there. So if you are slipping in memory, I am not trying to rub it in. I hope that is not the case.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
15,397
5,972
USA
✟808,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
You are misquoting me. I did not say that what you are doing is a sin, merely that the Sabbath is more than fellowship and eating.
You said:
So you have a Bible study on Saturday and sometimes have a potluck? Sounds ok, but that is not keeping Sabbath, according to scripture
You said it was not keeping the Sabbath, which is not so.

I don't recall anyone saying the Sabbath is only Bible study or potluck. But keeping the day honoring God by Bible study and through fellowship is an example of Sabbath-keeping.


He offers His body and blood as sacrifice, and we celebrate it in the form of bread and wine. That is the Sabbath.
Can you post a verse that says this? I see your words here not what God said. Exo20:8-11 Isa 58:13
Judge for yourself. Should our eyes be on the day, or on the mighty work of salvation by Our Lord Jesus Christ? His sacrifice fulfills the Sabbath.
Jesus said if you love Me, keep My commandments- I think our eyes should be on what God asks of us through love and faith and not what feels right to us.
Leviticus is not speaking of the day of Atonement only.
Of course, but the verse you quoted was
It mentions the first and the eighth day as Sabbaths as well as the ninth day.
How can this be if the Sabbath can only be on the seventh day?
Because they are different sabbaths. The weekly Sabbath is always on the seventh day thus saith the LORD Exo20:10 the annual sabbaths feast days can be on any day of the week.
The Bible never says that sacrifice is one and done. If it had, it would not say that Jesus is a priest forever in the order of Melchisedech. Melchisedech offered bread and wine. The bloody animal sacrifices stopped when the Temple was destroyed. Christ offered one bloody sacrifice on the cross, but told us to continue to offer the unbloody sacrifice of bread and wine in perpetuity.
A priest offers sacrifice. If there were no longer need for sacrifice, why would Jesus be made a priest forever in the order of Melchisedech? When He said It is finished on the cross, we can see that He meant the Old covenant was fulfilled, and the bloody sacrifices of the Old covenant were changed to the unbloody sacrifice of bread and wine, which becomes His body and blood at the words of consecration at Mass.
The weekly Sabbath is not about an animal sacrifices its about honoring God and keeping His Sabbath day holy spending holy time with God that is a delight Isa 58:13 and as He commanded, Exo20:8-11 not changing it to another day of convenience.
Christ calls us to humility, not presumption. Our consciences must be kept tender by remembrance, not made hard as stone by presumption.
Search the scriptures, we see the Sabbath includes the affliction of our souls, aka penance and consumption of the sacrifice.
In this world, we are in a spiritual battle, our hearts are easily lead astray to take the easy path. This is dangerous because Jesus tells us to strive to enter by the narrow gate, because broad and easy is the way to destruction. Acts 14:21-22 tells us that we must suffer many hardships to enter the kingdom of God.
Do you not hear Jesus words? If anyone come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me. Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you. As to the bread and wine, He says this is my body, this is the blood of the New Covenant . Do this in remembrance of me.
It’s not a remembrance like you are celebrating some silly old man’s 95th birthday. That is just sentimental. It is a continuing remembrance of the sacrifice that He made for us. The proper response to which is penance. How could you look at the bloodied and beaten body of Our Lord, know that your sins caused it, as He willingly endured the passion for you, and not feel sorrow?
The Bible does not say to think oh that sacrifice is in the past, I am good now, the sacrifice is over, so no need to think about it? Do you not see that when we refuse to afflict our souls and examine our conscience it makes our conscience dull? We go so far astray that we no longer know what we are doing, that is human nature.

Do you think penance is evil? If so, in what way?
The Bible says in Psalm 51 that a broken spirit and a contrite heart Lord you will not despise
If you say penance is evil, I refer you to scripture where it says Woe to those that call the evil good and the good evil

Simply put, if you are not afflicting your soul and examining your conscience as well as consuming the sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ, then you are not keeping Sabbath

What you are doing is not sinful. It’s just not Sabbath keeping without penance and sacrifice

I say this not to degrade you or Lord myself over you, rather to invite you to take the narrow path as outlined in Scripture and enter the straight gate, rather than the broad way you are taking.
It is the marriage supper of the Lamb, the Spirit and the Bride say come, whosoever will, drink of the waters of life freely
Jesus says that the first will be last and the last will be first in His kingdom. We all have a place predestined for us in that kingdom. You may be predestined to a higher place than me, but you have to accept the gift of Christ’s sacrifice to get there. He calls you to follow
Do not harden your heart and refuse His offer by saying sacrifice is over and penance not necessary. You are right in insisting that the Sabbath must be kept, but you seem to not know how it should be kept
I am sticking with what He said but appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Probably best we just agree to disagree.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,863
6,197
Visit site
✟1,126,019.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Reviewing the conversation:
It is not just the ten commandments that define sin:​
The two great commandments are not in the ten, but in the "law of Moses", as you put it, which you acknowledge was given by God as well.​
35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”​
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” (NKJV)
Upon these two great principles all the law AND the prophets hang. They are the basis for the rest, not the reverse. Moreover, in the law of Moses we have​
  • warning against favoritism, referenced by James
  • commands against incest, still in effect in I Corinthians 5
  • laws against homosexuality, still in effect in I Corinthians 6
  • laws against kidnapping, and lying referenced in 1 Timothy 1 (as distinct from bearing false witness in a trial. Lying is treated on its own in the law).
Etc.​
You replied:

Do you believe the Ten Commandments was not included in the greatest commandments of how we are to love God or love our brethren? If the Ten Commandments was kept, the summary of those commandments would automatically be kept and we wouldn’t need another law to remind us to do this or show us how because they would already be keeping.​

I replied:

You continue to get it backwards.​
  • The text does not say that the two great commands are a summary of the ten.
  • The text says: 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” (NKJV)
Everything in the law AND the prophets hang on these two commands. They are the two great principles, which all the law and the prophets flow from.​
By saying they are the two greatest Jesus puts them above the others. The others hang from them.​
  • The law against favoritism flows from them.
  • The law against not stealing flows from them.
  • The law against kidnapping flows from them.
  • The law against incest flows form them
  • The law against taking the Lord's name in vain flows from them.
  • And yes, even the Sabbath flows from them, and the other appointed times.
The law given to Israel (the whole law, all the commands, not just the ten) by God are the embodiment of the two great principles in the particular context, and covenant of the nation of Israel, which He chose for His own glory.​



Perhaps, but lets look at it more closely.

Jesus says “on these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets” Matt 22:40

The Greek verb (kremannymi) means to depend on, be supported by, or be summed up in principle — like a door hangs on hinges. The hinges don’t replace the door; they support and explain how it functions.

So the entire Scriptures hangs on these two commandments- love God with all our heart, mind and soul and love our neighbor.
The whole Scriptures are "summed up"in them to use your definition. That is the point. They are the two greatest. And all the law and prophets flow from them.

Love is the foundation of the entire Bible.

Love however never went undefined as most people believe.

Right. The whole law spells out love. The two commandments are the broad principles, the rest of the law the particulars.

They believe its just a feeling, but its actually a response to the Spirit working within our hearts and that response leads to action. If you love Me, keep My commandments Exo20:6 John14:15 Don't change it because God wrote it and He makes no mistakes- keep it the way I said, lets place our faith fully in Him. Deut4:2 Ecc3:14 Mat5:18-19 Rev22:18-19
Right, and when God said the Israelite who worked on the Day of Atonement would be destroyed from His people, it shows a particular. They were to obey the commandments God gave them.


Paul very plainly identified the commandments that sum up the Second Greatest commandment to love our neighbor.

Rom 13:9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” [a]“You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” all quoted from the Ten Commandments Exo20:1-17

Romans 13:9-10​
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. (NKJV)​
Adding the last line. All of the ten commandments, and some beyond the ten in fact, spell out the particulars of loving your neighbor. Love does no harm to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. "Any other commandment" is there for a reason.

You don't need to try to cram every commandment into the ten. All the commandments are summed up in the two.

But the particulars all matter also.

So when you say about
32 You shall rise before the gray headed and honor the presence of an old man, and fear your God: I am the LORD. (NKJV)​

Sabbathblessings said:
5th Commandment- Honor your father and your mother.​
Leviticus 19:32 extends that principle:​
Honor is not just for parents​
It applies to elders in the community​
It is completely unnecessary. God gave this as a specific. It doesn't have to somehow be part of the ten. It is a moral principle, whether it is in the 10 or not.

Or when you respond to
Leviticus 25:35​
35 ‘If one of your brethren becomes poor, and falls into poverty among you, then you shall help him, like a stranger or a sojourner, that he may live with you. (NKJV)​

Not helping a brother or sister in need when we can, starts from greed in the heart which is under the 10th commandment of covetousness

It is also unnecessary. Loving your neighbor is the principle, The specific is help the poor. There may be a number of reasons people ignore the poor. It might be they want to keep their money as you refer to. It may be they just don't care.

Either way it is commanded, and you don't have to cram into one of the ten.


Its only logical the Greatest Commandments to love God with all our heart mind and soul would come from this same unit, the ones God Himself wrote out and have His name in them on how we are to love him, but its actually what Jesus was quoting verbatim and I can prove it included the Sabbath.

It actually doesn't make sense that the two greatest, upon which all the law and prophets hang, are somehow only derived from the ten.

All of the law and prophets--that is more than the ten!
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
15,397
5,972
USA
✟808,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Reviewing the conversation:
It is not just the ten commandments that define sin:​
The two great commandments are not in the ten, but in the "law of Moses", as you put it, which you acknowledge was given by God as well.​
35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”​
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” (NKJV)
Upon these two great principles all the law AND the prophets hang. They are the basis for the rest, not the reverse. Moreover, in the law of Moses we have​
  • warning against favoritism, referenced by James
  • commands against incest, still in effect in I Corinthians 5
  • laws against homosexuality, still in effect in I Corinthians 6
  • laws against kidnapping, and lying referenced in 1 Timothy 1 (as distinct from bearing false witness in a trial. Lying is treated on its own in the law).
Etc.​
You replied:

Do you believe the Ten Commandments was not included in the greatest commandments of how we are to love God or love our brethren? If the Ten Commandments was kept, the summary of those commandments would automatically be kept and we wouldn’t need another law to remind us to do this or show us how because they would already be keeping.​

I replied:

You continue to get it backwards.​
  • The text does not say that the two great commands are a summary of the ten.
  • The text says: 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” (NKJV)
Everything in the law AND the prophets hang on these two commands. They are the two great principles, which all the law and the prophets flow from.​
By saying they are the two greatest Jesus puts them above the others. The others hang from them.​
  • The law against favoritism flows from them.
  • The law against not stealing flows from them.
  • The law against kidnapping flows from them.
  • The law against incest flows form them
  • The law against taking the Lord's name in vain flows from them.
  • And yes, even the Sabbath flows from them, and the other appointed times.
The law given to Israel (the whole law, all the commands, not just the ten) by God are the embodiment of the two great principles in the particular context, and covenant of the nation of Israel, which He chose for His own glory.​




The whole Scriptures are "summed up"in them to use your definition. That is the point. They are the two greatest. And all the law and prophets flow from them.



Right. The whole law spells out love. The two commandments are the broad principles, the rest of the law the particulars.


Right, and when God said the Israelite who worked on the Day of Atonement would be destroyed from His people, it shows a particular. They were to obey the commandments God gave them.




Romans 13:9-10​
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. (NKJV)​
Adding the last line. All of the ten commandments, and some beyond the ten in fact, spell out the particulars of loving your neighbor. Love does no harm to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. "Any other commandment" is there for a reason.

You don't need to try to cram every commandment into the ten. All the commandments are summed up in the two.

But the particulars all matter also.

So when you say about
32 You shall rise before the gray headed and honor the presence of an old man, and fear your God: I am the LORD. (NKJV)​


It is completely unnecessary. God gave this as a specific. It doesn't have to somehow be part of the ten. It is a moral principle, whether it is in the 10 or not.

Or when you respond to
Leviticus 25:35​
35 ‘If one of your brethren becomes poor, and falls into poverty among you, then you shall help him, like a stranger or a sojourner, that he may live with you. (NKJV)​



It is also unnecessary. Loving your neighbor is the principle, The specific is help the poor. There may be a number of reasons people ignore the poor. It might be they want to keep their money as you refer to. It may be they just don't care.

Either way it is commanded, and you don't have to cram into one of the ten.




It actually doesn't make sense that the two greatest, upon which all the law and prophets hang, are somehow only derived from the ten.

All of the law and prophets--that is more than the ten!
The whole Bible hangs on loving God with all our heart and loving our fellow man. Love never went undefined Exo20:6 John14:15 1John5:2-3, it’s not about a feeling or how each one wishes to love God. God plainly spelled it out for us, written personally by God. The perfect law converting the soul Psa 19:7 and are very broad Psa 119:96 Mat5:19-30 God added no more to them Deut5:22 why only the Ten Commandments is under His mercy seat. God never needed man to help with Creation, the only job man had was to keep what God made Gen2:15 and obey His voice, not the other one. God doesn’t need man to complete the law of God that He wrote, His own Testimony Exo20:11 God can speak for Himself and He did. But I know we won’t agree and I am OK with that. I will just leave it as agree to disagree; God will sort everything out in His time.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,863
6,197
Visit site
✟1,126,019.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I removed some of the color formatting when replying only because I was having trouble reading your post, especially on the dark theme version of the board. If you change text you may want to make sure you don't use black text, but just remove the formatting and it fits the various themes. I used colors for quite a while to try to distinguish things or set of Scripture etc. But with changes over the years to the forum it winds up breaking at some point, and not working with all themes. Just a suggestion.

Which was quoted to start with. If they were clean and not on a journey it was.​
Yes, like the ceremonial law given to Israel as a sign:​
6 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. 17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”​
It was a sin for the stranger in their gates. It does not say it was a sin for those Gentiles outside their gates, who didn't have the Sabbath given to them because they were brought out of Egypt:​


But wasn't it a Law of God that if a Gentile chose to sojourn with them, Israel wasn't suppose to vex them?

Lev. 19: 33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

So if a Gentile wanted to sojourn with them in their journey to "their land" in the safety of the refuge inside the gate, were they not to be allowed, as if they were homeborn?

Yes, that was fine. I was not indicating that the Gentile could not keep the Sabbath when in the gates of Israel. Actually they had to. I was just noting that it is referring to those in Israel.

But in the case of the Passover, for instance, they couldn't just join in. They had to be circumcised, and then they could participate like the native born:

Exodus 12:48-49​
48 And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. 49 One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you.” (NKJV)​

This is the background to Acts 15 where we see the Pharisee contingent among the Christians saying that the Gentiles must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses:

5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (NKJV)​

They wanted them to be circumcised and to keep all the law of Israel, because that is what strangers would do before if they were fully joining the Lord, the covenant, the assembly.

But that is not what the council determined in the case of the Gentile Christians:

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. (NKJV)​

The Gentiles were complete in Christ, and didn't have to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. That is not to say they did not have moral requirements. They did. The letters to the majority Gentile churches show this clearly. But they did not have to keep all the particulars of the law of Moses that were with Israel, to be complete in Christ.

By the way, that is not to say I have any issue with Gentiles deciding to keep the Sabbath, or observing the appointed times in some way, if they wish to do so to the Lord. Romans 14 says those who do so do so to the Lord. The text in Colossians says let no one judge you, but it still notes the appointed times are, present tense, shadows that point to the reality of Christ. If they wish, the Gentiles can still keep it and obtain a blessing in spending time with the Lord. But they were not required to by the council because they were not under the law of Moses.

Now in a situation like the Galatians, after having been justified by faith, they were then considering circumcision and observation of the law to be accepted in Christ, Paul warned them that to do so would be to fall from grace. They didn't need that to be justified.


And an Israelite who refused to live inside the gate, would he not be considered the same as a Gentile? If I remember right, the Exodus was a voluntary journey.

Someone could certainly decide not to dwell in Israel, yes. The issue there though is that at that time there were few other places worshiping the Lord on a large scale.

So for instance, Naaman after his cleansing of leaprosy worshipped the Lord. But it was hard. And his wanting to take dirt from Israel suggests a misunderstanding of God as a local deity, and he even asked to be forgiven when his master bowed to his idol if he did too out of obligation. The prophet said to go in peace, because Naaman was sincerely worshipping God, in a hostile situation.

So usually if someone wanted to join themselves to the Lord they would do so in the community of Israel where He was worshipped. And there the whole society was built around the appointed times, and even servants were released from work.

31 But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them "in the land" which I give them to possess it.


So then, according to God's Laws;
  • The Sabbath is a memorial, for Israel and the Gentile that Sojourns with them.
  • The Sabbath is an appointed time, for Israel and the Gentile that Sojourns with them.
  • The Sabbath had sacrifices as the other appointed times, for Israel and the Gentile that Sojourns with them.
  • The Sabbath is a sign with Israel, and the Gentile that Sojourns with them.
  • The Sabbath is to be kept by Israel, and the Gentile that Sojourns with them, throughout their generations.

Yes, someone could join themselves to God, His people, the covenant, etc. and it would be a sign to them as well. This was the usual way a foreigner could participate. It usually involved circumcision and keeping the law of Moses.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,863
6,197
Visit site
✟1,126,019.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And I think Isaiah confirms this.
Is. 56: 1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

I think there is something slightly different going on there, but certainly related. The people in this passage wanted to join themselves to the Lord, but had an extra impediment.

Isaiah 56 is describing those proselytes who were not allowed to join the assembly of the Lord, such as Eunuchs, or some foreigners. But Isaiah shows a future time when they would be able to do so, despite these limitations. Here is the background text:

Deuteronomy 23:1-8​
1 “He who is emasculated by crushing or mutilation shall not enter the assembly of the LORD.
2 “One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the assembly of the LORD; even to the tenth generation none of his descendants shall enter the assembly of the LORD.
3 “An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter the assembly of the LORD; even to the tenth generation none of his descendants shall enter the assembly of the LORD forever, 4 because they did not meet you with bread and water on the road when you came out of Egypt, and because they hired against you Balaam the son of Beor from Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse you. 5 Nevertheless the LORD your God would not listen to Balaam, but the LORD your God turned the curse into a blessing for you, because the LORD your God loves you. 6 You shall not seek their peace nor their prosperity all your days forever.​
7 “You shall not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother. You shall not abhor an Egyptian, because you were an alien in his land. 8 The children of the third generation born to them may enter the assembly of the LORD. (NKJV)​

Some people were specifically barred from entry to the assembly.

In Isaiah's prophecies we see impending judgment on Jerusalem and Judah, and eventual destruction, with the remnant being dispersed. As you quoted Ezekiel (after Isaiah, but contemporary with the fulfillment of the destruction and the deportation to Babylon), they had profaned God's name. But for His own sake He would restore them, which both Isaiah and Ezekiel point to (and Jeremiah, etc.)

So the passage in Isaiah is in that context of destruction of the temple, then the restoration of the people and temple of God, and its future glory. And as part of that even those who despaired of joining the people would now do so.

Now by the way, we already see some exceptions to the text in Deuteronomy quoted, prior to Isaiah's time. For instance, King David, and Jesus Himself had Ruth the Moabitess in their family line.

But Isaiah says that the restoration of Israel will result in even more expansion of His people.

Isaiah 56:1-8​
1 Thus says the LORD:​
“Keep justice, and do righteousness,​
For My salvation is about to come,​
And My righteousness to be revealed.​
2 Blessed is the man who does this,​
And the son of man who lays hold on it;​
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,​
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”​
3 Do not let the son of the foreigner
Who has joined himself to the LORD
Speak, saying,
“The LORD has utterly separated me from His people”;
Nor let the eunuch say,
“Here I am, a dry tree.”
4 For thus says the LORD:​
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,​
And choose what pleases Me,​
And hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house​
And within My walls a place and a name​
Better than that of sons and daughters;​
I will give them an everlasting name​
That shall not be cut off.​
6 “Also the sons of the foreigner​
Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him,​
And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants—​
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,​
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”​
8 The Lord GOD, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.” (NKJV)

So we see that in this time ahead that Isiah foretells the destroyed temple will be restored, the outcasts of Israel will be gathered, and others besides them--Gentiles--would be gathered as well.

The house of prayer to all nations indicates that all the places where Israel were dispersed would now worship the Lord. The emphasis on holding fast the covenant--including the sign with Israel, shows that they would be accepted, whereas before in the law some could not.

And we actually see this fulfilled. For instance, before Philip caught up to the Ethiopian Eunuch he as traveling back from Jersualem, having worshiped.

We also see in Acts 2 Jews from every nation under heaving dwelling in Jerusalem.

5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. (NKJV)​

And the new temple, expanded by Herod, became one of the wonders of the world. The Gentile court allowed Gentiles to still be in the temple grounds, though not with full access. Of course full proselytes would have even more access.

The text in Isaiah mentions these previously excluded people now also offering burnt offerings. We see that even before the NT era Gentiles were able to have sacrifices offered for them by priests in the temple.

For example, in Jospephus' Antiquities of the Jews Book XVI chapter 2 the Roman general and friend of the Emperor, and at that time Governor of Syria, Marcus Agrippa visited Herod the great and went to Jerusalem and offered a large number of animals at the temple to God. This was prior to Jesus' birth. Herod's expansion of the temple made it a wonder of the world.

So Isaiah correctly prophesied not only the return and regathering of Israel, but others being brought there.

However, the other texts you quote, such as from Malachi, after the restoration, etc. point out another problem. The people and leaders of Israel were heading to judgment again.

The temple became became not just a place of prayer for all the nations, but also became a place where Gentile sacrifices were encouraged for commercial benefit. Even in the case of Marcus Agrippa he appears in the narrative to be seeking favor with the people as Governor more than sincerely worshiping. He fed and gave gifts to them at that time per Josephus.

But I am sure there were still many who were sincere, like the Etheopian Eunuch.

Now this brings us to Jesus quotation of this verse.

Luke 19:41-46​
41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.” 45 Then He went into the temple and began to drive out those who bought and sold in it, 46 saying to them, “It is written, My house is a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a den of thieves.’ ” (NKJV)​
Mark 11:17​
17 Then He taught, saying to them, “Is it not written, My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations’? But you have made it a den of thieves.’ ” (NKJV)​

Jesus notes that Isaiah was right that His house became a house of prayer for all nations. However, the leaders had now turned it into a den of thieves. The temple would soon be leveled. The expansion that Isaiah saw for that temple had an end point because the temple itself was coming to and end.

Not only would it be destroyed in 70 AD, but it was already left to them (the religious leaders) desolate.

8 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’ ” (NKJV)​

Just as God's glory departed the temple in the time of Ezekiel, because of the sins of the people and the impending judgment, Jesus said "your house" (no longer His, but theirs, a den of theives instead of its intended house of prayer) is left to you desolate. Because He has now left that temple.

Jesus likewise said a change was coming in that they would neither worship in Jerusalem or Mt. Gerizim, but would worship in spirit and truth:

John 4:19-23​
19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”​
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. (NKJV)​

I think "inside the gate" was to be a refuge for all men who Loved the Name of the Lord, but the Priesthood "after the order of Aaron" corrupted themselves and blasphemed God's Name among the heathen. All these things were written for our examples, so that we, who also profess to know God, will not lust after the same disobedience they lusted after.

Yes, that seems accurate.

I really like reading your posts, and your perspective, but felt it prudent to share mine, I hope you don't mind.

Thank you!

In closing, you talk about Gentiles "outside the gate". Rahab was outside the gate, but had not only heard of the God of Abraham, but believed that HE was the one true God. What are the odds that of all the people in that great city of Jericho, it was just a coincidence that God sent Joshua to the One house, where a Gentile lived who wanted to sojourn with Israel.

Great discussion
Yes, and she too became an ancestor of David, and Jesus.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,863
6,197
Visit site
✟1,126,019.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Agreed that Ezekiel references both the seventh day Sabbath and feast day sabbaths, but Paul is referencing handwritten ordinances that Moses wrote 2Chron33:8 that were contrary and against
Numbers 28 and 29, and Ezekiel 45 and 46 reference the Sabbath in the listing of the appointed times, and that is the background of Col. 2.

You claim the appointed times of Israel were against the Colossians? How? They were described as uncircumcised in the flesh Gentiles. The appointed times didn't even apply to them, let alone condemn them.

But their record of sin did.

He forgave all their sins and blotted out the certificate of debt, the record of their sins.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,863
6,197
Visit site
✟1,126,019.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Its about doubtful disputations what man esteems, not what God of the Universe esteems- the Sabbath is the holy day of the LORD - Remember to keep the Sabbath day holy

You claim it is not.

Romans 14:4-6​
4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.​
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. (NKJV)​
But it is quite broad. And the one who observes does so to the Lord, and the one who does not does not observe to the Lord.

You say the Sabbath is not disputed. There is a whole section of the forum dedicated to the dispute with 1,300 threads, as well as these bonus threads outside that section. And this is not new. The various church history statements have a great variety of views regarding the Sabbath.

Which is perhaps what we would expect if some were observing and others not, and the people were not to judge.
 
Upvote 0
Jun 26, 2003
9,079
1,656
Visit site
✟316,635.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
You said:

You said it was not keeping the Sabbath, which is not so.

I don't recall anyone saying the Sabbath is only Bible study or potluck. But keeping the day honoring God by Bible study and through fellowship is an example of Sabbath-keeping.



Can you post a verse that says this? I see your words here not what God said. Exo20:8-11 Isa 58:13

Jesus said if you love Me, keep My commandments- I think our eyes should be on what God asks of us through love and faith and not what feels right to us.

Of course, but the verse you quoted was

Because they are different sabbaths. The weekly Sabbath is always on the seventh day thus saith the LORD Exo20:10 the annual sabbaths feast days can be on any day of the week.

The weekly Sabbath is not about an animal sacrifices its about honoring God and keeping His Sabbath day holy spending holy time with God that is a delight Isa 58:13 and as He commanded, Exo20:8-11 not changing it to another day of convenience.

I am sticking with what He said but appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Probably best we just agree to disagree.
We cannot agree to disagree, because you are ignoring the ordinances of the Lord.
You don’t have to answer to me, as I am not God, but you say you do what God says and then not do it at the same time. Are only half of God’s words worth the listening?

Numbers 28: 1-10 describes what happens every Sabbath. We have two lambs offered along with bread and wine. This is a perpetual holocaust.
Christ is the Lamb of God, so we do not sacrifice animals anymore, but we continue to offer the bread and wine as part of the memorial sacrifice.

1 Cor 11:16-30 describes the situation perfectly. The Sabbath is not for fellowship and potlucks. He says if anyone is hungry let him eat at home. This is a solemn feast. We eat the sacrifice of the lamb, bread and wine, and we better afflict our souls and do penance because if we eat and drink in an unworthy manner, we are guilty of the
body and blood of the Lord

Why would Paul say that if it were just a symbol or if examination of conscience and penance were not needed? Why would the Sabbath have lamb, bread and wine offered as a perpetual holocaust if sacrifice was to cease? Jesus is the lamb of God, and we continue to offer the bread and wine by His command. The animal sacrifices have ceased, but Christ’s sacrifice remains as a perpetual holocaust as described in scripture

The repentance and penance, the eating of the memorial sacrifice and resting in the presence of God. That is the Sabbath
It is all written there in scripture
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
15,397
5,972
USA
✟808,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
We cannot agree to disagree, because you are ignoring the ordinances of the Lord.
You don’t have to answer to me, as I am not God, but you say you do what God says and then not do it at the same time. Are only half of God’s words worth the listening?

Numbers 28: 1-10 describes what happens every Sabbath. We have two lambs offered along with bread and wine. This is a perpetual holocaust.
Christ is the Lamb of God, so we do not sacrifice animals anymore, but we continue to offer the bread and wine as part of the memorial sacrifice.
All animal sacrifices and the feast days offerings that included animal sacrifices pointed to Jesus, they are shadow laws fulfilled in Christ Dan 9:27 Heb10:1-15. The Sabbath day was never married to animal sacrifices- the Sabbath started at Creation before sin, no animal sacrifices Exo20:11 no animal sacrifices in the Sabbath commandment Exo20:8-11 the purpose of the Sabbath was never only animal sacrifices, they included it after the fall until the Seed, after the Cross the Sabbath continued on with no animal sacrifices because again they were never married to the Sabbath, nor was it ever the Sabbath’s main purpose according to the LORD Exo 20:8-11 Isa 58:13 Lev23:3 . So you are only reading one section of Scripture and not allowing the Bible to give you the full story
1 Cor 11:16-30 describes the situation perfectly. The Sabbath is not for fellowship and potlucks. He says if anyone is hungry let him eat at home. This is a solemn feast. We eat the sacrifice of the lamb, bread and wine, and we better afflict our souls and do penance because if we eat and drink in an unworthy manner, we are guilty of the
body and blood of the Lord
The Sabbath is on the seventh day of the week, thus saith the LORD Exo20:10 our church has communion on the Sabbath , but the Lords Supper is not the definition of the Sabbath according to God. Potluck is not the main focus on the Sabbath so not sure where you got that from, the purpose of the Sabbath is setting aside all work and labors on the seventh day, so we can spend quality and holy time with God, honoring God Isa 58:13 Exo20:8-11 coming together as one body Lev 23:3 on the holy day of the LORD Isa 58:13, eating however is not a sin on the Sabbath, never was never will be.
Why would Paul say that if it were just a symbol or if examination of conscience and penance were not needed? Why would the Sabbath have lamb, bread and wine offered as a perpetual holocaust if sacrifice was to cease? Jesus is the lamb of God, and we continue to offer the bread and wine by His command. The animal sacrifices have ceased, but Christ’s sacrifice remains as a perpetual holocaust as described in scripture

The repentance and penance, the eating of the memorial sacrifice and resting in the presence of God. That is the Sabbath
It is all written there in scripture
You seem to be reading a lot of your own ideas into Scripture instead of allowing the Scripture to correct our theology. I say agree to disagreee because the Bible is not written according to you or according to to me, it’s according to God. I believe He plainly tells us, but not everyone trusts His plain words. God will sort everything out soon enough. He is who we have to answer to not anyone else.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
15,397
5,972
USA
✟808,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
You claim it is not.

Romans 14:4-6​
4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.​
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. (NKJV)​
But it is quite broad. And the one who observes does so to the Lord, and the one who does not does not observe to the Lord.

You say the Sabbath is not disputed. There is a whole section of the forum dedicated to the dispute with 1,300 threads, as well as these bonus threads outside that section. And this is not new. The various church history statements have a great variety of views regarding the Sabbath.

Which is perhaps what we would expect if some were observing and others not, and the people were not to judge.
If you wish to believe what man esteems is above what the LORD thy God esteems Exo20:8-11 Isa 58:13 Exo31:18 and is a commandment of God under the mercy seat of God, that's you're free will, its not mine, its not what Paul taught Col2:8 1Cor7:19. Doubtful disputations in Scripture was never the word of God, God's Truth Psa 119:151 although we are warned what would happen to God's Truth 2Tim4:3-4 Rom1:25 2Peter3:15-16
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
15,397
5,972
USA
✟808,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
People teach proselyte to mean Gentiles that converted to Judaism, when its not what the Scriptures teach.

προσήλυτος (prosēlytos)
Meaning: one who has come over, a newcomer, a convert.

It describes someone who has “come over” to faith. Basically it is a Gentile Christian who follows God and God's people join themselves to Him and serve God Isa56:6 and keep His commandments Rev14:12 because we love Him John14:15 Exo20:6 and trust Him above anyone else, even if the majority tells you you're wrong. Faith in God over man. Rom1:25 Rev14:7 Col2:8 Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13 Rev14:12 Rev22:14
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
54,056
12,194
Georgia
✟1,169,512.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I said a few things.

  • I said it is strange that you say we go by Scripture,
Well you need to rethink that
  • then you bring up all these things outside of Scripture.
  1. which even you admit, does not show up in any SDA doctrinal statement ... so "just a red herring" on your part?
  2. I show common ground with even the Sunday groups when making my case for Sabbath and you are upset that I point it out? how "strange"
  3. I show that in the areas where BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate do have some common ground where even you agree with the Sunday groups on that common ground, and you call it "strange"?
Your pattern appears to be that even if I speak of topics where the TWO sides agree, and even YOU agree, it is called "strange" by you because all you wish to see is division with my group??

How "odd", how "strange" that a former pastor only wants to see division even when it comes to points where YOU agree with both "major/prominent/primary" sides as do I (as you already admitted)

Indeed that is "strange". IMHO
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
54,056
12,194
Georgia
✟1,169,512.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
You claim it is not.

Romans 14:4-6​
4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.​
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. (NKJV)​
A good chapter to find no reference at all to the Gen 2:2-3 holy day called "Sabbath" in Ex 20:11
But it is quite broad. And the one who observes does so to the Lord, and the one who does not does not observe to the Lord.

You say the Sabbath is not disputed.
not disputed in scripture

The various church history statements have a great variety of views regarding the Sabbath.
And they all primarily agree with the Sabbath given to all mankind in Eden "not just Jews"
The Sabbath included in the TEN, and the TEN as the moral law of God
The Sabbath binding on mankind to this very day

all those pesky details you try to avoid or complain about? even though you ALSO agree with them on that? How "odd"


Which is perhaps what we would expect if some were observing and others not, and the people were not to judge.

Lev 23 annual holy days fit the Rom 14 description where "one observes one day above another , while another man observes them all"
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
54,056
12,194
Georgia
✟1,169,512.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Col 2 is condemning Gnosticism "making stuff up", inventing ways to judge other etc
It is not deleting scripture or telling anyone that some scripture is evil. Paul makes it clear in Rom 14 that even those who keep one of the Lev 23 annual holy days above another, is not a problem, nor is it a problem to "observe them all" according to Rom 14.


Col 2 – is Paul’s attack on Gnosticism

8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

AI confirms;

Colossians 2 warns against worshiping angels, ascetic practices, and mystical visions, beliefs that were likely influenced by Gnosticism1. The letter emphasizes the centrality of Christ and warns against deceptive philosophies and human traditions that detract from Christ2. Colossians 2 warns against worshiping angels, ascetic practices, and mystical visions, beliefs that were likely influenced by Gnosticism1. The letter emphasizes the centrality of Christ and warns against deceptive philosophies and human traditions that detract from Christ2.



Gnosticism involved worship of angels​

Gnosticism involved worship of angels, as well as belief in astrology. Gnostics recognized a divine hierarchy above the angels, populated by beings called aeons

========================
Mat 7 Christ condemns judging one another. Col 2 we see the same thing. No change post-cross vs pre-cross
 
Upvote 0