Sabbath Keeping and The Gospel

tall73 · Saturday at 11:16 AM

SabbathBlessings said:
While the Israelites made animal sacrifices daily including on the Sabbath because people sinned daily, the Sabbath was never only tied to animal sacrifices like the annual sabbath(s) were in the law of Moses. If you believe otherwise, please show with Scripture in the NT where they sacrificed one animal on the Sabbath day, that they continued to keep long after the Cross.

You acknowledge they sacrificed on the Sabbath.

But it was not just because people sinned on that day. It was because they had two regular burnt offerings every day.

AND it is because there were also additional sacrifices associated with the Sabbath directly, just like the other appointed times. Now I will show that first from the OT, and then show a NT reference to the work of the priests in sacrificing on the Sabbath from Jesus.

Numbers 28:3-10

3 “And you shall say to them, This is the offering made by fire which you shall offer to the LORD: two male lambs in their first year without blemish, day by day, as a regular burnt offering. 4 The one lamb you shall offer in the morning, the other lamb you shall offer in the evening, 5 and one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering mixed with one-fourth of a hin of pressed oil. 6 It is a regular burnt offering which was ordained at Mount Sinai for a sweet aroma, an offering made by fire to the LORD. 7 And its drink offering shall be one-fourth of a hin for each lamb; in a holy place you shall pour out the drink to the LORD as an offering. 8 The other lamb you shall offer in the evening; as the morning grain offering and its drink offering, you shall offer it as an offering made by fire, a sweet aroma to the LORD.

9 ‘And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering— 10 this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering. (NKJV)

There were additional offerings for the Sabbath. Jesus noted that they "profane" the day by their work on that day, but are guiltless.

Matthew 12:5

5 Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless? (NKJV)

And you don't have to take it from me. Here is Ellen White in Desire of Ages acknowledging that the priests were busier on the Sabbath day than usual because they were performing such rites:

Again, the priests in the temple performed greater labor on the Sabbath than upon other days. The same labor in secular business would be sinful; but the work of the priests was in the service of God. They were performing those rites that pointed to the redeeming power of Christ, and their labor was in harmony with the object of the Sabbath.

The priests on the Sabbath offered sacrifices. And not just the regular sacrifices, but additional ones for the Sabbath. Jesus points out that they were not held guilty for working on the Sabbath in so doing.

By the way, if non-Adventists want to get a better idea of Adventist theology regarding the Sabbath, feel free to read the whole chapter from Desire of Ages titled "The Sabbath", which that quote was from:

https://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/130.1322#1347

I quote it because few Adventists will disagree with it.

.
So the priests would offer sacrifices every day, and extra on the Sabbath.

And among the Christian believers in Jerusalem a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith of Christ:

Acts 6:7

7 Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith. (NKJV)

Are you suggesting they didn't offer sacrifices in accordance with the law?

We know the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem had no objection to offerings in general after the cross. Acts 21 tells us the Jewish believers were zealous for the law. And it shows they were still offering sacrifices.

Acts 21:20-24

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. (NKJV)

They propose that Paul demonstrate that he is not opposed to the law, by participating with them in their purification for the vow.

These were sacrifices associated with the Nazirite vow. And from the details it sounds like these men had begun the vow, been accidentally defiled and had to be purified, which involved sacrifices at the beginning and end of the process:

Numbers 6:1-21

1 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When either a man or woman consecrates an offering to take the vow of a Nazirite, to separate himself to the LORD, 3 he shall separate himself from wine and similar drink; he shall drink neither vinegar made from wine nor vinegar made from similar drink; neither shall he drink any grape juice, nor eat fresh grapes or raisins. 4 All the days of his separation he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, from seed to skin.

5 ‘All the days of the vow of his separation no razor shall come upon his head; until the days are fulfilled for which he separated himself to the LORD, he shall be holy. Then he shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow. 6 All the days that he separates himself to the LORD he shall not go near a dead body. 7 He shall not make himself unclean even for his father or his mother, for his brother or his sister, when they die, because his separation to God is on his head. 8 All the days of his separation he shall be holy to the LORD.

9 ‘And if anyone dies very suddenly beside him, and he defiles his consecrated head, then he shall shave his head on the day of his cleansing; on the seventh day he shall shave it. 10 Then on the eighth day he shall bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons to the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of meeting; 11 and the priest shall offer one as a sin offering and the other as a burnt offering, and make atonement for him, because he sinned in regard to the corpse; and he shall sanctify his head that same day.

12 He shall consecrate to the LORD the days of his separation, and bring a male lamb in its first year as a trespass offering; but the former days shall be lost, because his separation was defiled.

In any case, the Nazirite vow involved sacrifice at the end:

13 ‘Now this is the law of the Nazirite: When the days of his separation are fulfilled, he shall be brought to the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 14 And he shall present his offering to the LORD: one male lamb in its first year without blemish as a burnt offering, one ewe lamb in its first year without blemish as a sin offering, one ram without blemish as a peace offering, 15 a basket of unleavened bread, cakes of fine flour mixed with oil, unleavened wafers anointed with oil, and their grain offering with their drink offerings.

16 ‘Then the priest shall bring them before the LORD and offer his sin offering and his burnt offering; 17 and he shall offer the ram as a sacrifice of a peace offering to the LORD, with the basket of unleavened bread; the priest shall also offer its grain offering and its drink offering. 18 Then the Nazirite shall shave his consecrated head at the door of the tabernacle of meeting, and shall take the hair from his consecrated head and put it on the fire which is under the sacrifice of the peace offering.

19 ‘And the priest shall take the boiled shoulder of the ram, one unleavened cake from the basket, and one unleavened wafer, and put them upon the hands of the Nazirite after he has shaved his consecrated hair, 20 and the priest shall wave them as a wave offering before the LORD; they are holy for the priest, together with the breast of the wave offering and the thigh of the heave offering. After that the Nazirite may drink wine.’

21 “This is the law of the Nazirite who vows to the LORD the offering for his separation, and besides that, whatever else his hand is able to provide; according to the vow which he takes, so he must do according to the law of his separation.” (NKJV)

Paul did not object to this, or any part of the law.

Acts 21:26

26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having been purified with them, entered the temple to announce the expiration of the days of purification, at which time an offering should be made for each one of them. (NKJV)

Now, you claim that the appointed times are done away with. But are they?

Matthew 5:17-18

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (NKJV)

Jesus quotes from the ten, but also from outside the ten in this passage. And the statement is not made just about the ten commandments, but that he did not come to destroy the law OR the prophets. And not no part of the law will pass away till heaven and earth pass away.

That is why in Colossians 2:16 the appointed times are still there. They 'are' shadows of (noun) coming things. They still point to Jesus. The verb is in the present tense, active voice. They are not a thing of the past.

Colossians 2:16-17

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. (NKJV)

The law was not taken away. It continued to point to Christ.

And this makes sense. Pentecost, the Day of Atonement, etc. were said the be statutes forever with Israel. For instance, regarding Pentecost:

Leviticus 23:19-21

19 Then you shall sacrifice one kid of the goats as a sin offering, and two male lambs of the first year as a sacrifice of a peace offering. 20 The priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits as a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs. They shall be holy to the LORD for the priest. 21 And you shall proclaim on the same day that it is a holy convocation to you. You shall do no customary work on it. It shall be a statute forever in all your dwellings throughout your generations. (NKJV)

Pentecost, the feast of weeks, was a pilgrimage feast in which the Israelites were to appear before the Lord in Jerusalem.

Exodus 23:14-17

14 “Three times you shall keep a feast to Me in the year: 15 You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread (you shall eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in the month of Abib, for in it you came out of Egypt; none shall appear before Me empty); 16 and the Feast of Harvest, the firstfruits of your labors which you have sown in the field; and the Feast of Ingathering at the end of the year, when you have gathered in the fruit of your labors from the field.

17 “Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the Lord GOD. (NKJV)

We see Paul eager to get back to Jersualem for Pentecost:

Acts 20:16

16 For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus, so that he would not have to spend time in Asia; for he was hurrying to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the Day of Pentecost. (NKJV)

The question before the Acts council was not whether Jews would stop keeping the law. It was whether Gentiles had to be circumcised and observe the whole law. The Jewish believers continued to keep it.

The Pharisee contingent among the Jewish Christians advocated for the Gentile Christians to do so as well.

Acts 15:5

5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (NKJV)

The council did not accept this:

Acts 15:24-27

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. (NKJV)

The background is that normally a foreigner who wished to join Himself to the Lord would be circumcised and keep the law and become as a native of the land:

Exodus 12:48-50

If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. 49 There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.” 50 All the people of Israel did just as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron.

The gentiles in Christ were not required to do this, or to observe the Passover, or the appointed times with Israel, or the law of Moses.

tall73 · Saturday at 11:34 AM

Reviewing the conversation:

tall73 said:
It is not just the ten commandments that define sin:

The two great commandments are not in the ten, but in the "law of Moses", as you put it, which you acknowledge was given by God as well.

Matthew 22:35-40
35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” (NKJV)

Upon these two great principles all the law AND the prophets hang. They are the basis for the rest, not the reverse. Moreover, in the law of Moses we have

warning against favoritism, referenced by James
commands against incest, still in effect in I Corinthians 5
laws against homosexuality, still in effect in I Corinthians 6
laws against kidnapping, and lying referenced in 1 Timothy 1 (as distinct from bearing false witness in a trial. Lying is treated on its own in the law).

Etc.

You replied:

SabbathBlessings said:
Do you believe the Ten Commandments was not included in the greatest commandments of how we are to love God or love our brethren? If the Ten Commandments was kept, the summary of those commandments would automatically be kept and we wouldn’t need another law to remind us to do this or show us how because they would already be keeping.

You continue to get it backwards.

The text does not say that the two great commands are a summary of the ten.
The text says: 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” (NKJV)

Everything in the law AND the prophets hang on these two commands. They are the two great principles, which all the law and the prophets flow from.

By saying they are the two greatest Jesus puts them above the others. The others hang from them.

The law against favoritism flows from them.
The law against not stealing flows from them.
The law against kidnapping flows from them.
The law against incest flows form them
The law against taking the Lord's name in vain flows from them.
And yes, even the Sabbath flows from them, and the other appointed times.

The law given to Israel (the whole law, all the commands, not just the ten) by God are the embodiment of the two great principles in the particular context, and covenant of the nation of Israel, which He chose for His own glory.

BobRyan · Saturday at 11:45 AM

Mercy Shown said:
No, you did. Jesus was referring to the pharisees who were ardent Sabbath keepers.

In that Mark 7 chapter referenced above Jesus quotes from BOTH the Ten and from the "traditions of man" showing how they were in opposition

Mercy Shown said:
They would be in agreement with your posts.

The Mark 7 text example above explicitly refutes your claim

In Mark 7 Christ demonstrates that the man made traditions of the Jews were in conflict with the "Word of God", the "Commandment of God"

7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Mercy Shown said:
So you say but that does not make it so.

I did not leave it as "My say so" , point to the details in the text refuting specific claims in your post about that very text.

Mercy Shown said:
You miss the bigger picture when you restrict your answers to specific proof texts.

Mark 7:7-13 flat out refutes your suggestion about that incident not at about tradition of man vs the Commandments of God

Mercy Shown said:
In the Gospels Jesus rebuked certain “traditions of men” that, in His view, displaced or distorted God’s commandments

Indeed and Mark demonstrates that point in triplicate, which means that we would expect the sentiment above to respond "yes! Exactly!" when Mark 7 and its details are brought into this discussion of "traditions of man"

Mercy Shown said:
. One example was the ceremonial handwashing before meals

true. It was not at all scripture, it was tradition that 'sin sticks on the person" that touches food in the market place that has been touched by gentiles. (They regarded sin as being on a gentile and anything a gentile touched" .. all of it "made up" so Jesus addresses that made up stuff in Mark 7.

Mercy Shown said:
, a ritual purity practice based on oral tradition rather than the written Law.

And Jesus debunks it.

But FIRST Jesus turns to an even more horrific practice that they had with their tradition , a practice that directly contradicted one of the TEN

Mercy Shown said:
The Pharisees criticized His disciples for not observing it, but Jesus responded that they were elevating human rules above God’s Word.

true

Mercy Shown said:
He also condemned the practice of declaring possessions “Corban,” a vow that allowed someone to dedicate resources to God and thereby avoid supporting their parents, effectively nullifying the command to honor father and mother.

True. "Tradition of man" flatly condemned by Christ

Mercy Shown said:
Jesus likewise challenged the burdensome Sabbath regulations that had grown up around the commandment

Tradition ,, made up stuff, added to what they viewed as scripture.

That same as Peter revealed in Acts 10 where he declared "it is unlawful for a Jew associate with a gentile or to visit him Acts 10:28.
eat in the house of a gentile". No such LAW existed OT or NT but it was created out of thin air "via tradition"

Mercy Shown said:
—such as condemning His disciples for plucking grain or Himself for healing on the Sabbath—clarifying that “the Sabbath was made for man.”

Indeed. Because no such Law in OT or NT prohibited that. Again, they thought they could get by with "making stuff up" as long as it had the "appearance of good religion"

Mercy Shown said:
In addition, He criticized the broader system of ritual washings and purity expansions that went beyond what Moses had written

yep ... tradition that inserts what scripture does not endorse

Mercy Shown said:
At the heart of His rebuke was not tradition itself, but traditions that contradicted God’s commands

agreed. Not "all tradition" violates scripture

Mercy Shown said:
, added man-made burdens

yep

Mercy Shown said:
“making the word of God of no effect” through human teaching.

yep that is a problem

BobRyan · Saturday at 11:50 AM

tall73 said:
The handwritten certificate of debt was the record of their sins.

true.,

tall73 said:
The powers disarmed are sin and death, the devil, etc. which other Scriptures speak of. He did this through the cross. He paid the debt they owed, canceled their record of sin. They were no longer condemned.

true

tall73 said:
1 Corinthians 15:25-26
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. (NKJV)

true

tall73 said:
Hebrews 2:14-15
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. (NKJV)

true

tall73 said:
Romans 7:11-12
1 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. (NKJV)

true

tall73 said:
Romans 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (NKJV)

true

Christ paid our debt as Col 2:16 affirms (our artificer of debt consisting of decrees AGAINST us" ) the record of our violation, the condemnation we incur in in the Gen 2, Rom 3:19-20, Rom 6 system where "The wages of sin is death".

BobRyan · Saturday at 11:56 AM

tall73 said:
Reviewing the conversation:

tall73 said:
It is not just the ten commandments that define sin:

The two great commandments are not in the ten, but in the "law of Moses", as you put it, which you acknowledge was given by God as well.

true. It is not just the TEN that are moral code, defining what sin is.

tall73 said:
Matthew 22:35-40
35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” (NKJV)

indeed "LAW AND the prophets" ..ie ALL OF SCRIPTURE is firmly based on those two commands of Love

tall73 said:
Upon these two great principles all the law AND the prophets hang. They are the basis for the rest, not the reverse. Moreover, in the law of Moses we have

warning against favoritism, referenced by James

commands against incest, still in effect in I Corinthians 5

laws against homosexuality, still in effect in I Corinthians 6

laws against kidnapping, and lying referenced in 1 Timothy 1 (as distinct from bearing false witness in a trial. Lying is treated on its own in the law).

Etc.

yep , moral law defines sin for mankind.
Ceremonial law does not , so then when gentiles chose not to participate in Passover... not sin.
but when gentiles kidnap or fail to show love by showing favoritism... sin

tall73 said:
The text does not say that the two great commands are a summary of the ten.

The text says: 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” (NKJV)

Everything in the law AND the prophets hang on these two commands. They are the two great principles, which all the law and the prophets flow from.

true. but how it is that this is not the great summation of all of it, is not apparent. It looks like it is that very thing

The civil and ceremonial laws ended with Israel, and did not end the command "do not take God's name in vain" MADE for MANKIND . So in Heb 10 speaking of the ceremonial law "He takes AWAY the first (animal sacrifice law) to establish the second" (Sacrifice of Christ), did not delete the command "do not murder"

But as noted above , not all law in scripture defines sin for all mankind

pasifika · Saturday at 12:07 PM

BNR32FAN said:
According to Hebrews 4 the sabbath is a representation of the rest we will receive in Christ, so in that regard I would say that it is a shadow since the “certain day” that is referred to as the sabbath day is “today” not the 7th day. Not to mention that Paul said it was a shadow of things to come in Colossians 2:17.

Yes I totally agree with you regarding the "today" as the Sabbath day for God's people just as the 7th day as the Sabbath day of the Lord.
Thank you for this knowledge

BobRyan · Saturday at 12:14 PM

tall73 said:
To be clear, I am not certain the command was given to man in the garden. I was just spelling out the logic of their assertion.

Indeed. the nonADventist Confessions of faith admit that the TEN began in Eden, given to mankind in Eden, written on the heart under the New Covenant of Jer 31:3134

those nonAdventist Confession affirm that the TEN are for all mankind

tall73 said:
Moses was writing from the view of an Israelite

"All scripture is written by inspiration from God AND IS TO be used for doctrine" 2 Tim 3:16

Moses informs ALL MANKIND that in Gen 2:2-3 MANKIND had a seventh day Holy day, set apart, sanctified, all mankind knew of the 7 day week
Moses informs ALL Mankind of the Gospel in Gen 3.
Moses informs all mankind that God told mankind not to sin in Gen 2
He informs all mankind about the clean and unclean animal distinction in Gen 7

He states Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" and Christ quotes MOSES in Matt 22 affirming it
Moses states Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" and Christ quotes MOSES in Matt 22

Paul tells Timothy that those OT scriptures bring us the gospel good news of salvation

tall73 said:
But we don't see any observation of it until Ex. 16

WE don't see "Do not covet" until Ex 20
We do not see "do not take God's name in vain" until Ex 20

It was always a sin for mankind to do it.

tall73 said:
, it is said to be a sign in Ex. 31 and a covenant with Israel.

Genesis and Exodus form one continuous narrative when you read them. Exodus therefore would not be quoting Genesis

Moses could write all of Genesis before Sinai.
Moses' readers had both Genesis and Exodus 20 and could easily refer back to Genesis

tall73 said:
, but rather Genesis is alluding to God's words from Sinai, which Moses heard.

that is a torturous wrench of the text. The idea that God is quoting Exodus in Gen 2 is a pretty big stretch

Studyman · Saturday at 12:21 PM

BNR32FAN said:
According to Hebrews 4 the sabbath is a representation of the rest we will receive in Christ, so in that regard I would say that it is a shadow since the “certain day” that is referred to as the sabbath day is “today” not the 7th day. Not to mention that Paul said it was a shadow of things to come in Colossians 2:17.

I don't think the Scriptures support that philosophy. And here is why.

Heb. 4: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

I believe this is speaking about when a man hears God's instruction. That is certainly the Spirit of Christ's intent through David.

6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker. 7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work. 10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: 11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath "that they should not enter into my rest".

8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

For me, I was placed by God in a world that polluted and rejected God's sabbaths and created their own. And I followed along in the religion of my fathers for many years, until I heard His Voice.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

At first I didn't hearken to God's voice, just as those who fell in the wilderness. But through study and a desire to "Seek the Righteousness of God", as the Jesus "of the Bible" instructed, I came to find myself in the exact same unbelief as those Israelites who also lived in rejection of God's Voice. So one day I stopped ignoring God's Voice, and hearkened to it instead, and this because I have chosen to believe God, or HE has placed it in my heart to believe God, I'm not sure which one. But I enter God's Earthy Rest, as HE Commanded, so as not to fall after the same example of unbelief. And in doing so, I have ceased from my own works, as God did His. Therefore, like Paul teaches,

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For "we must all appear" before the judgment seat of Christ; that "every one" may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So today, I have heard His Voice, and have not hardened my heart, as I did "Wherein in time past I walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience", and have ceased from my own works, because I believe Him.

Heb. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder "of them that diligently seek him".

tall73 · Saturday at 12:50 PM

BobRyan said:
true. It is not just the TEN that are moral code, defining what sin is.

indeed "LAW AND the prophets" ..ie ALL OF SCRIPTURE is firmly based on those two commands of Love

yep , moral law defines sin for mankind.
Ceremonial law does not , so then when gentiles chose not to participate in Passover... not sin.
but when gentiles kidnap or fail to show love by showing favoritism... sin

true. but how it is that this is not the great summation of all of it, is not apparent. It looks like it is that very thing

The civil and ceremonial laws ended with Israel, and did not end the command "do not take God's name in vain" MADE for MANKIND . So in Heb 10 speaking of the ceremonial law "He takes AWAY the first (animal sacrifice law) to establish the second" (Sacrifice of Christ), did not delete the command "do not murder"

But as noted above , not all law in scripture defines sin for all mankind

So in the law, if the Israelite didn't keep the Passover, was it a sin or not sin? We can get into what changes occurred following Jesus' sacrifice, But clearly in the law, the "ceremonial" as you put it, was binding, and it was a sin to disregard it.

Numbers 9:13

13 But the man who is clean and is not on a journey, and ceases to keep the Passover, that same person shall be cut off from among his people, because he did not bring the offering of the LORD at its appointed time; that man shall bear his sin. (NKJV)

And we do see them continuing to observe all the law in Jerusalem, etc. in Acts 21. Because it pointed to Jesus, and to do otherwise would undermine any outreach to other Jews.

But as you say, they knew that Jesus was the true Sacrifice. And we see in Hebrews the transition that Jesus predicted when He said the temple would be destroyed. The temple was still standing. But it would not be for long:

Hebrews 8:4-5

4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” (NKJV)

Jesus serves as the true High Priest in the true sancuary. The first covenant is obsolete, and the temple, the shadow, which was a part of that arrangement is supplanted:

Hebrews 8:13 - 9:5

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

1 Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary. 2 For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary; 3 and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, 4 which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; 5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail. (NKJV)

So yes, the temple system and sacrifice were already supplanted by Christ.

But that does not mean that the appointed times had no meaning or value, or were not still pointing to Jesus.

They were not removed.

tall73 · Saturday at 1:04 PM

BobRyan said:
Indeed. the nonADventist Confessions of faith admit that the TEN began in Eden

Ah yes, the strange argument you bring out regularly, about how "we should go by Scripture... but look at what some statements by groups hundreds of years removed from Scripture say that agrees with me! "

Even though you of course don't agree with what those groups say about a whole host of issues. But you agree on the one point, of the Sabbath being from creation.

And if you say, as you have before, they all see that so it must be obvious. Yeah, then why do you hold minority views on death, on hell, etc.? If so many think you are wrong, don't you have to be wrong? Of course not. I also tend to think the Adventist view of the fate of the wicked is correct. Should I then stop doing that because so many don't see it that way?

And of course you don't agree with those confessions regarding the Sabbath. And neither do I. Neither of us think Sunday is a Sabbath, or replaced the 7th day Sabbath, etc.

Go by Scripture or don't. Stop wasting my time with confessions of faith I don't pretend to hold to. If you want to talk about them with those who value them, feel free.

BobRyan · Saturday at 1:10 PM

tall73 said:
So in the law, if the Israelite didn't keep the Passover, was it a sin or not sin?

no, if an Israelite could not make the trip to Jerusalem for Passover, it was not a sin.

In any case, Passover is not a case of moral law where it is a sin for everyone/anyone to violate it.

this distinction between ceremonial law "he takes away the first to establish the second", and moral law (for example "Ten Commandments" is admitted on both sides of the Sabbath debates as can be seen in the Westminster Confession of Faith chpt 19, Baptist Confession of Faith sectn 19 , Dies Domini on the TEN comm etc.

tall73 said:
We can get into what changes occurred following Jesus' sacrifice, But clearly in the law, the "ceremonial" as you put it, was binding, and it was a sin to disregard it.

not for gentiles
Not even for all Jews (only 5 were mandatory)
Not for all Jewish women or children

ceremonial law is funny that way

tall73 said:
And we do see them continuing to observe all the law in Jerusalem, etc. in Acts 21.

Indeed. The "edit" of the Sabbath commandment so popular today did not come from the Apostolic church in Jerusalem

Rom 14 Paul speaks about this variable ceremony observance this way "5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day" "regards" is "observes" in Rom 14.

IT is a reference to the annual ceremonial holy days of Lev 23

tall73 said:
Because it pointed to Jesus, and to do otherwise would undermine any outreach to other Jews.

true. The shadows pointed to the cross and as Rom 14 were optional afterwards
as opposed to 'were a sin afterwards'

tall73 said:
But as you say, they knew that Jesus was the true Sacrifice. And we see in Hebrews the transition that Jesus predicted when He said the temple would be destroyed. The temple was still standing.

True, the third temple was fully functional in 66 AD when Hebrews was written stating that Christ was already High Priest in Heaven. Pointing mankind away from the "still fully functional" temple in Jerusalem and to Christ as High priest in heaven

tall73 said:
But it would not be for long:

Hebrews 8:4-5
4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” (NKJV)

Jesus serves as the true High Priest in the true sancuary. The first covenant is obsolete, and the temple, the shadow, which was a part of that arrangement is supplanted:

no doubt

tall73 said:
Hebrews 8:13 - 9:5
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

1 Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary. 2 For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary; 3 and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, 4 which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; 5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail. (NKJV)

So yes, the temple system and sacrifice were already supplanted by Christ.

and the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 is the one and ONLY Gospel GAl 1:6-9 "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

tall73 said:
But that does not mean that the appointed times had no meaning or value, or were not still pointing to Jesus.

They were not removed.

Heb 10:4-10 "HE TAKES AWAY the first to establish the second"

4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,

“Sacrifice and offering You have not desired,
But a body You have prepared for Me;
6 In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure.
7 “Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(In the scroll of the book it is written of Me)
To do Your will, O God.’”
8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

BobRyan · Saturday at 1:23 PM

BobRyan said:

Indeed. the nonADventist Confessions of faith admit that the TEN began in Eden

tall73 said:
Ah yes, the strange argument you bring out regularly

Only "strange" if you don't actually read these Sabbath debate threads where the claim is made that the TEN were nailed to the cross.

tall73 said:
, about how "we should go by Scripture... but look at what some statements by groups hundreds of years removed from Scripture say that agrees with me! "

You have "imagined" a different environment for the Sabbath debate forum , than the one we actually have.

I would be more the happy to have had this forum on the "TEN are still valid but one is edited to point to week day 1 by traditions hundred of years later"

tall73 said:
you agree on the one point, of the Sabbath being from creation.

hmm. Lets see some of the most recent threads where I remind people of that fact.

Christianity, the Sabbath, Ten Comm, from Eden onward

Heads up for readers of this thread: in a world that has Satan as its god ("the god of this world" according to Paul in 2 Cor 4:4), with the sinful nature at war with God's Law according to Rom 8:6-8, you may expect to see "obedience to God's Word" called "legalism", and God's commandments...

www.christianforums.com

Large areas of agreement do exist between Bible Sabbath keeping groups and Sunday groups

BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate do still share some points in common: 1. If a church posted on its sign "IT IS NOT A SIN TO BREAK THE TEN COMMANDMENTS" a lot of Christian members of that church would complain and it would not matter if the church was keeping Sunday or the Bible Sabbath as...

www.christianforums.com

tall73 said:
And if you say, as you have before, they all see that so it must be obvious.

What I say that there are "some" who choose to oppose BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate in their rejection of the Sabbath as coming to us from Creation and applicable to all mankind as part of the moral law of God.

tall73 said:
Yeah, then why do you hold minority views on death

It is not a sin to be in the minority. Sabbath as included in the moral laws of God, originating from Eden and so applicable to all mankind is not a minority position as much as many here on this area of the board have told themselves that.

So I deal with the reality here on this forum

tall73 said:
Go by Scripture or don't. Stop wasting my time with confessions of faith I don't pretend to hold to. If you want to talk about them with those who value them, feel free.

That's very similar to "only address the errors in MY position don't keep addressing the errors in the antiSabbath views of other posters here on this area of the forum"

And that actually "makes sense" to you? Seriously?

tall73 · Saturday at 1:49 PM

tall73 said:
Moses was writing from the view of an Israelite

BobRyan said:
"All scripture is written by inspiration from God AND IS TO be used for doctrine" 2 Tim 3:16

Very much so. God inspired all the Scriptures. And yet we still recognize that God used very different people, with different perspectives, and for different audiences. We see Matthew and Luke covering much of the same material. But one traces Jesus lineage back to Adam. And one begins by highlighting David and Abraham.

Were either less inspired? No, but they were for different audiences.

Moses was writing from the perspective of an Israelite. God inspired what was stated, but it was in the context of Israel. And it makes notes that relate to them, including explanatory notes that explain key concepts ahead time, outside of chronological order. This can refer to many years future:

Genesis 32:32

32 Therefore to this day the children of Israel do not eat the muscle that shrank, which is on the hip socket, because He touched the socket of Jacob’s hip in the muscle that shrank. (NKJV)

Genesis 36:31

31 Now these were the kings who reigned in the land of Edom before any king reigned over the children of Israel (NKJV)

Or just a short time future:

Genesis 3:17-24

17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:

“Cursed is the ground for your sake;

In toil you shall eat of it

All the days of your life.

18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you,

And you shall eat the herb of the field.

19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread

Till you return to the ground,

For out of it you were taken;

For dust you are,

And to dust you shall return.”

20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.

21 Also for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.

22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life. (NKJV)

In the middle of the fall description, when the curses are delievered, and before they are given garments of skin, and are put out of the garden, there is an explanatory statement about Adam calling Eve the mother of all the living.

Are we to think this happened in that order, in the middle of the sentence being delivered? No, it is explanatory.

She had not given birth yet. It is recorded later when she did:

Genesis 4:1

1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, “I have acquired a man from the LORD.” (NKJV)

BobRyan said:
Moses informs ALL MANKIND that in Gen 2:2-3 MANKIND had a seventh day Holy day, set apart, sanctified, all mankind knew of the 7 day week

God inspired what Moses wrote:

Genesis 2:1-3

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.

3 So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

It gives the explanation of why the Seventh day was made holy. Because that is when God rested from all His work in creation.

But it does not show this being given to Adam and Eve. It is not shown at all until Israel. And it is stated who it was given to as a sign that God was their Creator:

Exodus 31:12-17

12 And the LORD said to Moses, 13 “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you. 14 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. 16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. 17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”

BobRyan said:
Moses informs ALL Mankind of the Gospel in Gen 3.
Moses informs all mankind that God told mankind not to sin in Gen 2
He informs all mankind about the clean and unclean animal distinction in Gen 7
He states Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" and Christ quotes MOSES in Matt 22 affirming it
Moses states Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" and Christ quotes MOSES in Matt 22
Paul tells Timothy that those OT scriptures bring us the gospel good news of salvation

Agreed!

BobRyan said:
WE don't see "Do not covet" until Ex 20
We do not see "do not take God's name in vain" until Ex 20

And we also don't see "do not covet is a sign between me and the Children of Israel forever.

We do see that with the Sabbath.

We also don't see "do not covet" being given as a sign IN ADDITION to the laws by which if a man does them he will live:

Ezekiel 20:10-12

10 So I led them out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. 11 I gave them my statutes and made known to them my rules, by which, if a person does them, he shall live. 12 Moreover, I gave them my Sabbaths, as a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.

But we do with the Sabbath.

We also don't see the command "do not covet" being one of the appointed times with Israel, and having sacrifices associated with it:

Numbers 28:9-10

9 “On the Sabbath day, two male lambs a year old without blemish, and two tenths of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with oil, and its drink offering: 10 this is the burnt offering of every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.

But we do with the Sabbath

BobRyan said:
It was always a sin for mankind to do it.

Agreed. It is a sin to covet.

And it was a sin for Israelites to not keep the Passover:

Numbers 9:13

13 But if anyone who is clean and is not on a journey fails to keep the Passover, that person shall be cut off from his people because he did not bring the LORD’S offering at its appointed time; that man shall bear his sin.

But the stranger wasn't required to. Though they could if they were circumcised and became like one of hte native born.

BobRyan said:
Moses could write all of Genesis before Sinai.

Now Bob, you and I both know, because we have discussed it before, that this is creative wording on your part.

You believe Ellen White told you when Moses wrote it. So it is not a "may" for you.

But you present no evidence either way. And it was all one narrative, much of which hadn't happened yet. We see Genesis was written for the Israelite audience.

BobRyan said:
Moses' readers had both Genesis and Exodus 20 and could easily refer back to Genesis

Yes they had both! And some of the early ones were there when God instituted the Sabbath as a sign with Israel. So they would know how to read both, because they heard it from God's mouth from Sinai before having to read it.

BobRyan said:
that is a torturous wrench of the text. The idea that God is quoting Exodus in Gen 2 is a pretty big stretch

tall73 said:
but rather Genesis is alluding to God's words from Sinai, which Moses heard.

I said it is alluding to and you say it is quoting. Either way, it is not a stretch if you look at how Genesis gives explanatory notes to Israelites, and if you realize they all heard it from God at the mountain.

And they all received that it was a sign with Israel, with their Creator, Redeemer from Egypt, and the One who sanctified them. It was an appointed time, with sacrifices. And eventually those in Ezekiel's time get the additional clarification that it was in addition to the laws by which if a man does them he will live.

tall73 · Saturday at 1:51 PM

BobRyan said:
true.,

true

true

true

true

true

BobRyan said:
Christ paid our debt

Glad we agree on this part.

tall73 · Saturday at 2:05 PM

BobRyan said:
Only "strange" if you don't actually read these Sabbath debate threads where the claim is made that the TEN were nailed to the cross.

So quote those claims, not me when giving this talk. But it is strange either way

We go by Scripture....and look at all this non-Scripture!

BobRyan said:
You have "imagined" a different environment for the Sabbath debate forum , than the one we actually have.

Feel free to quote all those statements in the forum that talk about replacing Sabbath with Sunday. I haven't made those statements.

BobRyan said:
I would be more the happy to have had this forum on the "TEN are still valid but one is edited to point to week day 1 by traditions hundred of years later"

What I say that there are "some" who choose to oppose BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate in their rejection of the Sabbath as coming to us from Creation and applicable to all mankind as part of the moral law of God.

What you say is that you have framed it as only two positions, and ignore the others. But if you are quoting me and talking about something other than my view, you are wasting your time. Quote those who have that view.

I am only going to point out how you say go by Scripture and start quoting a bunch of other folks instead.

BobRyan said:
It is not a sin to be in the minority.

Which was my point. Nor is it a sign you are wrong. I don't judge whether the Sabbath is right or wrong by numbers.

I don't judge whether the understanding I have of it is right or wrong based on the numbers.

I don't base my view of hell on the numbers. Etc.

And neither do you because you would be in a minority position on a number of points.

BobRyan said:
Sabbath as included in the moral laws of God, originating from Eden and so applicable to all mankind is not a minority position as much as many here on this area of the board have told themselves that.

I have not said that part is a minority position.

I have said that your view is a minority position regarding the implications of that, which is why you are quoting a bunch of Sunday Sabbatarians.

None of that applies to my view. Quote them to talk about it.

tall73 · Saturday at 2:22 PM

BobRyan said:
no, if an Israelite could not make the trip to Jerusalem for Passover, it was not a sin.

Which was quoted to start with. If they were clean and not on a journey it was.

BobRyan said:
In any case, Passover is not a case of moral law where it is a sin for everyone/anyone to violate it.

not for gentiles
Not even for all Jews (only 5 were mandatory)
Not for all Jewish women or children

ceremonial law is funny that way

Yes, like the ceremonial law given to Israel as a sign:

Exodus 31:16-17

6 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. 17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”

It was a sin for the stranger in their gates. It does not say it was a sin for those Gentiles outside their gates, who didn't have the Sabbath given to them because they were brought out of Egypt:

Deuteronomy 5:12-15

12 “‘Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant, or your ox or your donkey or any of your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. 15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

The Sabbath is a memorial
The Sabbath is an appointed time
The Sabbath had sacrifices as the other appointed times
The Sabbath is a sign with Israel
The Sabbath is to be kept by Israel throughout their generations.

tall73 · Saturday at 2:49 PM

tall73 said:

And we do see them continuing to observe all the law in Jerusalem, etc. in Acts 21.

BobRyan said:
Indeed. The "edit" of the Sabbath commandment so popular today did not come from the Apostolic church in Jerusalem

Yes, they were zealous for it and the whole law, and all the other appointed times.

BobRyan said:
Rom 14 Paul speaks about this variable ceremony observance this way "5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day" "regards" is "observes" in Rom 14.

IT is a reference to the annual ceremonial holy days of Lev 23

That is your claim Bob. But Romans 14 is very broad, and doesn't limit it.

And Colossians 2 gives the listing of the holy times, the OT context of which is Numbers 28, 29, and Ezekiel 45:17, explained through Ezekiel 46, and both include the weekly Sabbath.

The zealous Jewish believers were keeping it all. They didn't require the Gentiles to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.

tall73 said:

Because it pointed to Jesus, and to do otherwise would undermine any outreach to other Jews.

BobRyan said:
true. The shadows pointed to the cross and as Rom 14 were optional afterwards
as opposed to 'were a sin afterwards'

And Colossians 2 gives the listing of the holy times, the OT context of which is Numbers 28, 29, and Ezekiel 45:17, explained through Ezekiel 46, and both include the weekly Sabbath.

They were still there, not removed. They were shadows pointing to Christ.

BobRyan said:
True, the third temple was fully functional in 66 AD when Hebrews was written stating that Christ was already High Priest in Heaven. Pointing mankind away from the "still fully functional" temple in Jerusalem and to Christ as High priest in heaven

no doubt

and the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 is the one and ONLY Gospel GAl 1:6-9 "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

Heb 10:4-10 "HE TAKES AWAY the first to establish the second"

4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,

“Sacrifice and offering You have not desired,
But a body You have prepared for Me;
6 In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure.
7 “Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(In the scroll of the book it is written of Me)
To do Your will, O God.’”
8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Yes.

Though that doesn't do away with all significance of the appointed times. It shows the true Sacrifice was made:

1 Corinthians 5:6-8

6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

BobRyan · Saturday at 3:35 PM

you said it is "strange" that I point out that those here who oppose the Sabbath and the TEN are opposing BOTH sides of the classic "Sabbath debate" - so I said

BobRyan said:
Only "strange" if you don't actually read these Sabbath debate threads where the claim is made that the TEN were nailed to the cross.

.

tall73 said:
So quote those claims, not me when giving this talk.

I quote them to point out the area were both sides agree and you are a bit out on a limb

tall73 said:
But it is strange either way

It shows your opposition is not to "just me" or even "just Adventists"

tall73 said:
What you say is that you have framed it as only two positions

Those are the main ones we see in the Christian world today. But a small groups of "no Ten commandments' also exists here on this area of the forum.

tall73 said:
, and ignore the others. But if you are quoting me and talking about something other than my view, you are wasting your time. Quote those who have that view.

This forum is loaded with antiSabbath threads that even you do not agree with. Yet... do we ever see you posting "some light" on those threads given what you have stated that the TEN were not deleted?

How "odd"

In any case there are a lot of my "Sabbath not just for Jews" posts on this thread already

BobRyan · Saturday at 3:58 PM

Studyman said:
I don't think the Scriptures support that philosophy. And here is why.

Heb. 4: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

I believe this is speaking about when a man hears God's instruction. That is certainly the Spirit of Christ's intent through David.

6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker. 7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work. 10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: 11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath "that they should not enter into my rest".

8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

For me, I was placed by God in a world that polluted and rejected God's sabbaths and created their own. And I followed along in the religion of my fathers for many years, until I heard His Voice.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

At first I didn't hearken to God's voice, just as those who fell in the wilderness. But through study and a desire to "Seek the Righteousness of God", as the Jesus "of the Bible" instructed, I came to find myself in the exact same unbelief as those Israelites who also lived in rejection of God's Voice. So one day I stopped ignoring God's Voice, and hearkened to it instead, and this because I have chosen to believe God, or HE has placed it in my heart to believe God, I'm not sure which one. But I enter God's Earthy Rest, as HE Commanded, so as not to fall after the same example of unbelief. And in doing so, I have ceased from my own works, as God did His. Therefore, like Paul teaches,

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For "we must all appear" before the judgment seat of Christ; that "every one" may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So today, I have heard His Voice, and have not hardened my heart, as I did "Wherein in time past I walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience", and have ceased from my own works, because I believe Him.

Heb. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder "of them that diligently seek him".

that is a good point. It already takes care of the "believe in Christ every day" context.

SabbathBlessings · Saturday at 4:06 PM

boughtwithaprice said:
Leviticus 16:31 teaches us that the Sabbath is a day of rest where we afflict our souls as a perpetual religion

Do SDA teach that we need to afflict our souls? I thought SDA teach against penance?

This is nothing about penance, its the day of Atonement - its a once a year annual sabbath, not to be confused with the weekly Sabbath in the 4th commandment.

boughtwithaprice said:
Leviticus 23

Teaches us that the Sabbath can be on any day of the week which God says it can occur. It is not limited to the seventh day. What is more important is what occurs on the Sabbath, rather than the day on which it occurs

The Sabbath is a day of rest which includes affliction of our souls. Examination of conscience and sacrifice to cover our sins

It says in Numbers 28:

[9] And on the sabbath day you shall offer two lambs of a year old without blemish, and two tenths of flour tempered with oil in sacrifice, and the libations, [10] Which regularly are poured out every sabbath for the perpetual holocaust

The priests were of the Levites who offered the sacrifice. The Jews kept these commands faithfully. I don’t know why you ask about animal sacrifices in the New Testament. The animal sacrifices continued until 70 AD when the temple was destroyed by the Romans. When there is no Temple and no sacrifice there is no longer any Sabbath. They would no longer be practicing Judaism, they would be remembering Judaism somewhat mournfully, somewhat pridefully.

Has God given us a Sabbath in the New Testament? He has taken the Sabbath which was a shadow of the things to come and has replaced it with His own body and blood.
The Sabbath involves four important acts to make it valid, rest from our labors, examination of conscience aka affliction of souls, consuming the sacrifice to wash away our sins, and communion with God. If your gatherings do not include the consuming of the sacrifice, are you really keeping Sabbath? Short answers, no.

The New Testament says very clear, when we read in Hebrews that Jesus is a priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedech. This is significant because in Genesis 14, Melchisedech offers bread and wine. Jesus then institutes bread and wine as a perpetual memorial sacrifice of Himself.

According to Numbers, the Sabbath was to have a perpetual holocaust. No holocaust, then no Sabbath. In the New Testament, the animal sacrifices have ceased as Jesus offered Himself as the Lamb of God.
Priests offer sacrifice, Jesus is a priest forever according to the order of Melchisedech. This can only mean that His body and blood is perpetually offered in the appearance of bread and wine, as the Sabbath requires a perpetual holocaust to be a vaild Sabbath

As Paul asks in 1 Cor 10:16, the chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?

The Sabbath is not just a day, and we see even in the Old Covenant, that the Sabbath was not limited to one day, the Sabbath is communion with God, which involves rest from our labors, affliction of our souls, and consumption of the sacrifice to be a Sabbath

Christ sacrifice is not offered and then forgotten. He is perpetually remembered, as He is a priest forever according to the order of Melchisedech.

You're confusing the annual sabbath(s) tied to feast days, animal sacrifices and offerings in the Law of Moses, with the weekly Sabbath in God's Ten Commandments. Exo20:6 Deut4:13 The annual sabbaths can be on any day of the week. The weekly Sabbath in the 4th commandment is always on the seventh day, thus saith the LORD.

This is part of the Testimony of God written by God directly.....He asked us not to change or add anything to His words- because in doing so they lose its power and God's words have power- ours have none.

Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

boughtwithaprice said:
So you have a Bible study on Saturday and sometimes have a potluck? Sounds ok, but that is not keeping Sabbath, according to scripture

So now Bible studies and eating on the Sabbath is not keeping the Sabbath. This sounds like a teaching of the Pharisees, its these type of teachings that have sadly turned people away from keeping God's Sabbath, what Jesus was correcting, the Sabbath has always been about honoring God and keeping our focus on Him Isa 58:13 spending holy and sactified time with our Creator and we most certainly do that through the studying of His word. Eating and fellowship on the Sabbath was never a sin- the Sabbath is a holy convocation Lev23:3 it sadly shows a lot of misunderstandings of God's blessed Sabbath day.

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