Sabbath Keeping and The Gospel

SabbathBlessings said:

I never said I do not believe that Moses could have copied and wrote down the Ten Commandments- but its not stated anywhere in Scripture.

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pasifika said:

Hi, thank you for explaining that more clearly.
So here is the question, why then the Sabbath command includes in the law given in Sinai which point to Christ? Luke 24:44

Thanks

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To be clear, I am not certain the command was given to man in the garden. I was just spelling out the logic of their assertion.

I was an Adventist minister for years, so I held to the same view as they expressed, and argued here at CF for some time in favor of it.

But over time I started to see things that didn't match up with that.

I tend to favor the view it was given to Israel as a sign, as Ex. 31 says, that it pointed not only to their Creator, but their Redeemer from Egypt as Deuteronomy 5 says, that it is a sign in addition to the law by which one lives as Ezek 20 says, that it was one of the appointed times, with sacrifices, etc. as Numbers 28,29, Ezekiel 45, 46 says, and that it is still, like Passover, like Pentecost, etc. a statute forever with Israel.

Moses was writing from the view of an Israelite, and related how God rested on the 7th day from His creative work--which to my knowledge all agree with that hold to God creating in 7 days. And Moses relates that He blessed the 7th day and sanctified it.

But we don't see any observation of it until Ex. 16, it is said to be a sign in Ex. 31 and a covenant with Israel.

Genesis and Exodus form one continuous narrative when you read them. Exodus therefore would not be quoting Genesis, but rather Genesis is alluding to God's words from Sinai, which Moses heard. Genesis and Exodus were written after that, as the one work relates the various things after they happened.

So Moses certainly rightly points out that God rested on the 7th day. And He blessed it. And He sanctified it. But it says He did that as a sign with Israel. It is holy to them. And it is included with the other appointed times, though most prominent among them.

Similarly, in Mark 2


The issue was that the Pharisees were condemning Jesus, but He was the one who instituted the Sabbath to start with. They were judging Him, but He is in fact the Son of Man, the one in Daniel 7 who comes into the presence of the Ancient of Days who is seated on the throne to judge, and the Son of Man inherits all the nations. He will judge them, not the other way around, just as we see Him saying the the chief priest during His trial, they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds.


So I see the "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath” as indicating it was not slavish dedication to rules that was the point, but that the Sabbath was for man's benefit. And Jesus is the right judge of the Sabbath.

Where I would differ with Adventists is that they tend to stress ανθρωπον as being man, a reference to Adam at creation, or perhaps more properly in Genesis 1:27 in the LXX, a reference to mankind, man and woman.

Whereas, I think the emphasis is more on the word play to emphasize His favorite title for Himself, the Son of Man, which the Jewish leaders clearly understood as reigning over all things, and judging, as it fits the question in the narrative better--They are judging Jesus, but He is the judge, and the Lord of the Sabbath, and knows what true Sabbath keeping is. And I don't think Jesus' point in the narrative was to point out that the Sabbath was made for all men, not just the Jews, as that didn't even seem to be part of His accusers concern.

Adventists say it is speaking of the Sabbath being made for man at creation--but that assumes what they are trying to prove. We don't see any text saying it was given to Man at creation, which if that were a major point of emphasis, you would think we would. They supply the "at creation" here when making that argument.

Moreover, which men the Sabbath was made for seems to be spelled out in plain statements:



In the latter text God says He gave them His statutes and judgments which, if a man does, he shall live, MOREOVER, he gave them the Sabbath to be a sign between God and Israel. The Sabbath is distinguished from the other commands by which a man lives.

Both sides are trying to make sense of all the Biblical data. I have been on both sides of the question, so at some point, either then, or now, I was wrong. And that is sobering. Here are some things I came to understand:

• the Jewish believers in Acts 21 kept being zealous for the whole law (we see this includes Pentecost for example in the case of Paul).
• The Gentile Christians were not required to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.
• the OT context regarding the appointed times (Numbers 28,29 and Ezekiel 45, 46) included the weekly Sabbath, and this is the background to Col. 2 They are all shadows which point to the reality. But the Colossians need not concern themselves with circumcision or the appointed times, because they are complete in Him.
• the Sabbath is said to be a sign with Israel throughout their generations
• The Sabbath is said to point to their Redeemer from Egypt as well as their Creator
• Ezekiel 20 says that the Sabbath was a sign in addition to the laws by which one lives
• there is no record of anyone being commanded to keep the Sabbath, or observing the Sabbath until Exodus 16
• Romans 14 is broadly stated, regarding observing or not observing to the Lord.
• The law was not just the ten commandments, and Jesus refers to both commands from the ten, and those out of it in Matthew 5 when He says that the law will not pass away until all is fulfilled.
• Exodus was not quoting Genesis in regards to the Sabbath, and both were written after the command was given by God in Ex. 16, and spoken by God in Ex. 20 as Genesis and Exodus are one narrative, and relate that history, and the command for Moses to write in a book what He was told.
• When Romans 2 spoke of those who did not have the law having the law written on the heart it referred to following the conscience and what God revealed about Himself in general revelation. They were not keeping Passover or the Sabbath , but they were able to know that God was the Creator, see His power, and knew that He required us not to steal, kill, etc. but to love Him and others.

Etc.

pasifika said:

Hi, thank you for explaining that more clearly.
So here is the question, why then the Sabbath command includes in the law given in Sinai which point to Christ? Luke 24:44

Also, who rested on the 7th day in creation? Isn't Christ? Heb 1:10 etc

Thanks

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See above. But also, even if someone thinks it was from creation, Christ was the Lamb of God from the foundation of the world. So redemption was not an afterthought. And Hebrews 4 seems to point to God's cessation from His work as a pattern of us to cease from our work, and to have faith, today, to enter His rest.

God certainly knew we would fall.

And for Adventists, who tend to think in terms not of the unity of the law, but in moral and ceremonial divisions, (and some would say natural) , it is hard to deny that:

a. there were moral commands in the law of Moses (against favoritism, against kidnapping, against bestiality, etc) that would still apply.

b. In the ten commandments the Sabbath is ceremonial.

• It is a memorial
• It is an appointed time.
• It is a sign pointing to their Creator, their Redeemer from Egypt, the God who sanctifies them
• It is a covenant with Israel forever
• It has associated extra sacrifices

This latter point is significant. There is no sacrifice associated with thou shalt not steal, or thou shalt not covet. The Sabbath is something different.

In this respect it has more similarity to something like the Passover which points back to redemption from Egypt, forward to Jesus the Passover Lamb, etc.

Moreover, Adventists claim that the Sabbath cannot be included in Colossians 2 because it was before sin, and so doesn't point to the sacrifical system. Though of course, the OT context clearly points to the lists of the appointed times that included the weekly Sabbath.

But even if we take that argument at face value--how does the new moon point to Jesus Atoning work?

Adventists say that the Sabbath points to creation, not Jesus' death. But in Deuteronomy it relates to redemption as well, from Egypt. And in Ex. 31 it relates to sanctification--which depending on how you understand it may not be necessary in an unfallen world.

But does the new moon point to Jesus' death? If so, I haven't seen it spelled out in Scripture. Yet Paul also calls it a shadow pointing to Christ.

Paul notes that the whole law is a tutor to bring us to Christ. So in that respect, all the law points to Christ, which may be the point you are making.

But also, the new moon had sacrifices associated with it--just like the Sabbath.

tall73 said:

See above. But also, even if someone thinks it was from creation, Christ was the Lamb of God from the foundation of the world. So redemption was not an afterthought. And Hebrews 4 seems to point to God's cessation from His work as a pattern of us to cease from our work, and to have faith, today, to enter His rest.

God certainly knew we would fall.

And for Adventists, who tend to think in terms not of the unity of the law, but in moral and ceremonial divisions, (and some would say natural) , it is hard to deny that:

a. there were moral commands in the law of Moses (against favoritism, against kidnapping, against bestiality, etc) that would still apply.

b. In the ten commandments the Sabbath is ceremonial.

• It is a memorial
• It is an appointed time.
• It is a sign pointing to their Creator, their Redeemer from Egypt, the God who sanctifies them
• It is a covenant with Israel forever
• It has associated extra sacrifices

This latter point is significant. There is no sacrifice associated with thou shalt not steal, or thou shalt not covet. The Sabbath is something different.

In this respect it has more similarity to something like the Passover which points back to redemption from Egypt, forward to Jesus the Passover Lamb, etc.

Moreover, Adventists claim that the Sabbath cannot be included in Colossians 2 because it was before sin, and so doesn't point to the sacrifical system. Though of course, the OT context clearly points to the lists of the appointed times that included the weekly Sabbath.

But even if we take that argument at face value--how does the new moon point to Jesus Atoning work?

Adventists say that the Sabbath points to creation, not Jesus' death. But in Deuteronomy it relates to redemption as well, from Egypt. And in Ex. 31 it relates to sanctification--which depending on how you understand it may not be necessary in an unfallen world.

But does the new moon point to Jesus' death? If so, I haven't seen it spelled out in Scripture. Yet Paul also calls it a shadow pointing to Christ.

Paul notes that the whole law is a tutor to bring us to Christ. So in that respect, all the law points to Christ, which may be the point you are making.

But also, the new moon had sacrifices associated with it--just like the Sabbath.

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Hi, thank you for your time and effort in response to my post. Some good points there you've pointed out ie new moon etc

Also good to know the Adventist theology on the Sabbath in more depth.

Mercy Shown said:

Adding to the cross? I am not adding anything to God's complete work. I am not adding works or doubt that Jesus only plaed part of it. I am not adding my own efforts to the finisher of my faith. In seems that may you are if I understand this post correctly. The cross is complete. Jesus said, "It is finished." Not "it is started." His one sacrifice perfected all of us who believe for ever while still being made holy.

God forbid. It brings us untold joy and assurance. My sins are removed from me as far as the east is from the west. There is no condemnation for me and because of Jesus I stand before God as if i had never sinned. Praise be to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

You can check it out under a microscope. The wafer is wheat flour and water until it is digested into waste material.

I really am unsure of what you are talking about. There is only one sacrifice under the new covenant and that was Christ, amen.

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Yes there is one sacrifice, Jesus Christ, and He is present body and blood soul and divinity in the form of bread and wine. A fact confirmed by scripture which you deny.
Imagining your sins are forgiven while trampling under foot the blood of Christ does not make sense to me, nor is it supported by scripture

tall73 said:

This is the Sabbath commandment in the list of ten commandments in Deuteronomy 5. It points to Israel's Redemption by God from their bondage in Egypt as a reason for keeping the Sabbath. Who do you think wrote it down?

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Deuteronomy 5:12-15​

12 Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. 15 And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day. (NKJV)​

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I never said Moses could not have copied what God wrote. If I copied something another author wrote does that make them my words or more valuable or are they still the authors.

Does the Bible emphasizes what Moses copied, or what God personally did. The Bible I read puts all glory on what God did. Exo32:16 Exo31:18 Not sure why we are focused on anything else.

tall73 said:

It is not just the ten commandments that define sin:

The two great commandments are not in the ten, but in the "law of Moses", as you put it, which you acknowledge was given by God as well.

Matthew 22:35-40​

35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”​

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” (NKJV)​

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Upon these two great principles all the law AND the prophets hang. They are the basis for the rest, not the reverse. Moreover, in the law of Moses we have

• warning against favoritism, referenced by James
• commands against incest, still in effect in I Corinthians 5
• laws against homosexuality, still in effect in I Corinthians 6
• laws against kidnapping, and lying referenced in 1 Timothy 1 (as distinct from bearing false witness in a trial. Lying is treated on its own in the law).

Etc.

There are commands regarding morality in all the law:

1 Timothy 1:5-11​

5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, 6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.​

8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust. (NKJV)​

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Do you believe the Ten Commandments was not included in the greatest commandments of how we are to love God or love our brethren? If the Ten Commandments was kept, the summary of those commandments would automatically be kept and we wouldn’t need another law to remind us to do this or show us how because they would already be keeping.

Is kidnapping not stealing? Taking something that doesn’t belong to you. Is incest not part of coveting that comes from lust of the heart that Jesus connected with adultery? There isn’t one sin that doesn’t fall under a category of the Ten Commandments- why its the only law under God’s mercy seat and very broad Psa119:96 Mat5:19-30 God doesn’t make mistakes- we do by separating one of His Ten Commandments and pretending He made a mistake with it, laying it aside as to say no, thats not for me, the one that came with the power of His blessings and sanctification that man thinks they had to correct and make their own day.

tall73 said:

You are not exactly close to how she means it. She is not saying that since the Sabbath command was given before sin, for that reason it is unchangeable.

Your example noted that diet changed at God's instigation after the fall, and that is true. Something isn't unchangeable in this age because of how it was at creation. There is precedent for God having us do things differently in a sinful world, than before the fall.

They would note that creation was very good, per Scripture, and without sin, and so the ideal in that sense, even in the food example. So the changing of diet was an accommodation necessitated by the fall.

As another example, slightly less controversial than the food laws, or Sabbath for Adventists, we wear clothes now, and because Adam and Eve were naked and unashamed, that doesn't mean we should imitate that at all times currently, even if it was the ideal. Clothing was given after the fall, we are in a sinful world, and God gave them a covering for a reason.

She of course does think the Sabbath didn't change, and that it is still a sin to break it.

But that is not exactly what she is driving at.

What she means is that if the Sabbath was given in the garden, then it predates the fall, and the need for redemption, and therefore is not pointing to redemption through the cross.

This is also why Bob notes that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. As he sees them both being made together in creation week, prior to sin, and so not pointing to redemption.

They see the Sabbath as before the sin problem, so not pointing to the resolution of the sin problem. Hence, it cannot be a shadow pointing to Christ, in the way animal sacrifice was, because those were particularly instituted to deal with sin.

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May I ask that you not speak for me and tell people what I mean. You are free to say what I think she may mean, instead of presenting it as a fact. I understand you are an ex-Adventists but there are some current professed Adventists that deliberately teach against core Adventists beliefs, even Jesus had a Judas, so it doesn't qualify one to speak for others. I appreciate it, thanks.

tall73 said:

• the Jewish believers in Acts 21 kept being zealous for the whole law (we see this includes Pentecost for example in the case of Paul).

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In Acts 15 the council for the Gentiles was correcting circumcision for salvation and was not correcting Sabbath-keeping one of God's commandments, as it was being kept by both Jews and Gentiles before and after the council and was part of the Gentile council.

Acts 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
Acts 15:21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

tall73 said:

• The Gentile Christians were not required to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.

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Agreed but has nothing to do with the Sabbath commandment given by God.

tall73 said:

• the OT context regarding the appointed times (Numbers 28,29 and Ezekiel 45, 46) included the weekly Sabbath, and this is the background to Col. 2 They are all shadows which point to the reality. But the Colossians need not concern themselves with circumcision or the appointed times, because they are complete in Him.

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Agreed that Ezekiel references both the seventh day Sabbath and feast day sabbaths, but Paul is referencing handwritten ordinances that Moses wrote 2Chron33:8 that were contrary and against Deut31:24-26, Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, not against man Mark2:27 and the shadow laws points to animal sacrifices Heb10:1-10 not any of the Ten Commandments. The Sabbath was instituted at Creation Exo20:11 and God points us back to it as He being our Creator Exo20:11 so can't be a shadow of anything, its the God we are called to worship Rev14:7

tall73 said:

• the Sabbath is said to be a sign with Israel throughout their generations

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Yes and even in the sign- God pointed it back to Creation before Jew or Israel

Exo 31:17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’ ”

Israel was also a name God gave to represent His people. He called Israel His son.

Exo 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD: "Israel is My son, My firstborn.
Hos 11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son.

tall73 said:

• The Sabbath is said to point to their Redeemer from Egypt as well as their Creator

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Egypt represents the bondage of sin- is God not our Redeemer from sin as well?

tall73 said:

• Ezekiel 20 says that the Sabbath was a sign in addition to the laws by which one lives

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Amen a sign of God's sanctification Eze20:12 because we can't do this ourselves and a sign He is our God Eze20:20 that we join oursvles to the LORD and serve Him Isa 56:6

tall73 said:

• there is no record of anyone being commanded to keep the Sabbath, or observing the Sabbath until Exodus 16

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There is no record of a lot of things, doesn't means it didn't exist. God indicated it did from Creation Exo20:11 Mark2:27 and that God's people keep His commandments Rev14:12 those who serve Him Isa56:6

tall73 said:

• Romans 14 is broadly stated, regarding observing or not observing to the Lord.

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Its about doubtful disputations what man esteems, not what God of the Universe esteems- the Sabbath is the holy day of the LORD - Remember to keep the Sabbath day holy - Paul taught traditions of man do not trump what is according to Christ Col2:8 It would be hard to make the argument the Sabbath is not according to Christ, when Jesus Himself said He is Lord of the Sabbath.

tall73 said:

• The law was not just the ten commandments, and Jesus refers to both commands from the ten, and those out of it in Matthew 5 when He says that the law will not pass away until all is fulfilled.

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So that would include the Sabbath yet you still treat it differently, when God did not.

tall73 said:

• Exodus was not quoting Genesis in regards to the Sabbath, and both were written after the command was given by God in Ex. 16, and spoken by God in Ex. 20 as Genesis and Exodus are one narrative, and relate that history, and the command for Moses to write in a book what He was told.

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Your words not God's. God only made one seventh day Sabbath and said it started at Creation. There were a lot of seventh days between Genesis and Exodus

Exo 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

God wrote the Ten Commandments Exo31:18 Deut 4:13 Exo32:16 the book that Moses wrote was placed outside the ark Deut31:24-26 , the Ten Commandments was inside the ark. Exo40:20 Exo25:16 written by our Lord and Savior personally. Exo32:16 Exo31:18

tall73 said:

• When Romans 2 spoke of those who did not have the law having the law written on the heart it referred to following the conscience and what God revealed about Himself in general revelation. They were not keeping Passover or the Sabbath , but they were able to know that God was the Creator, see His power, and knew that He required us not to steal, kill, etc. but to love Him and others.

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Its the same law being written in the heart and yes they were keeping the Sabbath as God indicated so plainly the Sabbath is for everyone.

Starting from the commandment itself

Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.


God wants to bless everyone, never only the Jews

Isa 56:2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

He also relates profaning the Sabbath with doing evil Neh13:17 Mark3:4 because its replacing God's words with another why He related it to going after idols Eze20:16 because who is it really profaning Eze22:26 saying Lord I do not want your blessing and sanctification, I will get it my own way. I do not want to spend holy time with you on the day you requested, I will do so when its convenient for me, when my friends are going.

Man cannot take away God's blessings, they can only forfeit their own.

God made it clear the Sabbath is for Gentiles and everyone. Those who love and want to join themselves to Him and serve Him

Isa 56:6 “Also the sons of the foreigner (Gentiles)
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—

The issue is there is not that there is enough evidence about the Sabbath that God said is for everyone, God was clear on that spoken directly by Him, the issue in my view, is the constantly trying to tear down what Jesus is Lord of Mark2:28 Its of no value if it doesn't exist. So tearing down what Jesus is Lord of doesn't really tear it down, it sadly is saying ones lord is something else.

tall73 said:

But also, the new moon had sacrifices associated with it--just like the Sabbath.

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Can you point out one verse in the NT where the Sabbath was associated with animal sacrifices and where the new moon feast continued in the NT.

Can you point out at Creation where according to God the Sabbath started Exo20:11 or where there are sacrifices in the 4th commandment Exo20:8-11

While the Israelites made animal sacrifices daily including on the Sabbath because people sinned daily, the Sabbath was never only tied to animal sacrifices like the annual sabbath(s) were in the law of Moses. If you believe otherwise, please show with Scripture in the NT where they sacrificed one animal on the Sabbath day, that they continued to keep long after the Cross.

tall73 said:

The handwritten certificate of debt was the record of their sins. The powers disarmed are sin and death, the devil, etc. which other Scriptures speak of. He did this through the cross. He paid the debt they owed, canceled their record of sin. They were no longer condemned.

1 Corinthians 15:25-26​

25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. (NKJV)​

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Hebrews 2:14-15​

14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. (NKJV)​

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Romans 7:11-12​

1 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. (NKJV)​

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Romans 8:3-4​

3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (NKJV)​

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That interpretation of the NKJV doesn’t seem to align with the removal of the appointed time that follows in verse 16. With that interpretation verse 16 doesn’t really follow along with verses 14 & 15 whereas in the NASB it all ties together seamlessly. The purpose of the removal of appointed times lines up seamlessly with the disarming of the rulers and authorities and being judged for not keeping them.

“having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭14‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Now if we change the translation to sin & death it doesn’t really make as much sense.

“having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When He had disarmed sin & death, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭14‬-‭17‬ ‭EDITED

But ultimately either way if the sabbath day continues to be observed then both rulers & authorities or sin and death aren’t actually disarmed and there is still judgement for failing to observe the sabbath. But if the sabbath is actually removed then the authorities are actually disarmed because there are no appointed times to be judged for.

tall73 said:

You are not exactly close to how she means it. She is not saying that since the Sabbath command was given before sin, for that reason it is unchangeable.

Your example noted that diet changed at God's instigation after the fall, and that is true. Something isn't unchangeable in this age because of how it was at creation. There is precedent for God having us do things differently in a sinful world, than before the fall.

They would note that creation was very good, per Scripture, and without sin, and so the ideal in that sense, even in the food example. So the changing of diet was an accommodation necessitated by the fall.

As another example, slightly less controversial than the food laws, or Sabbath for Adventists, we wear clothes now, and because Adam and Eve were naked and unashamed, that doesn't mean we should imitate that at all times currently, even if it was the ideal. Clothing was given after the fall, we are in a sinful world, and God gave them a covering for a reason.

She of course does think the Sabbath didn't change, and that it is still a sin to break it.

But that is not exactly what she is driving at.

What she means is that if the Sabbath was given in the garden, then it predates the fall, and the need for redemption, and therefore is not pointing to redemption through the cross.

This is also why Bob notes that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. As he sees them both being made together in creation week, prior to sin, and so not pointing to redemption.

They see the Sabbath as before the sin problem, so not pointing to the resolution of the sin problem. Hence, it cannot be a shadow pointing to Christ, in the way animal sacrifice was, because those were particularly instituted to deal with sin.

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According to Hebrews 4 the sabbath is a representation of the rest we will receive in Christ, so in that regard I would say that it is a shadow since the “certain day” that is referred to as the sabbath day is “today” not the 7th day. Not to mention that Paul said it was a shadow of things to come in Colossians 2:17.

BNR32FAN said:

According to Hebrews 4 the sabbath is a representation of the rest we will receive in Christ, so in that regard I would say that it is a shadow since the “certain day” that is referred to as the sabbath day is “today” not the 7th day.

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Can you point out where in Hebrews 4 is says a certain day or today is the Sabbath.

It doesn't say today is the Sabbath. What it does say is Today, we can make the decision, not to rebel against God.

What Hebrews is quoting verbatim as what today means Heb4:7

Psa95:7Today, if you will hear His voice:
8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion,
(where) As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 When your fathers tested Me;
They tried Me, though they saw My work.
10 For forty years I was [e]grieved with that generation,
And said, ‘It is a people who go astray in their hearts,
And they do not know My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”

Which we see plainly what they rebelled against, the same arguments people make today to do Eze20:13 Eze20:15-16 even through we are warned not to Heb4:6 Heb4:11

God already spoke on the matter of when the Sabbath day is, my faith is in Him- He warns of us of adding to His words. We have free will though, however its doing exactly what the passage is warning about- today if we hear His voice, do not harden our hearts to rebellion, which is sin, unbelief and disobedience to God. Heb3:7-19 Psa 95:7-13 Sin is breaking the law of God which of course includes the 4th commandment.

Heb 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”;

Exo 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying:

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

He could not have been clearer on this had He wrote it out Himself and He did. Exo31:18 Man doesn't correct God, He corrects us, if one allows Him to.

Pro3:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall [b]direct your paths.

BNR32FAN said:

Not to mention that Paul said it was a shadow of things to come in Colossians 2:17.

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The Bible again defines what the shadow laws are, which why it connects to Col2:16 things that are about food and animal sacrifice and offerings what Jesus came to end Dan9:27 like we see in the feasts days that some were also annual sabbaths always connected with animal sacrifices- what God defines as sin breaking God's laws is never a shadow- its under the mercy seat of Christ in heaven Exo25:21 Exo31:18 Rev15:5 Rev 11:19 what all man is judged by John12:48 James 2:11-12 Ecc12:13-14 Rev11:18-19


Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once [a]purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, [b]O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been [c]sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Sin, breaking the law of God will still lead people off the narrow path without repenting and changing ones mind and turning direction Pro28:13

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” [g]says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Making a doctrine out of one or two verses that contradicts even what Paul taught Col2:8 1Cor7:19 and every thus saith the LORD in Scripture I do not believe is a good idea, but we are given free will to test anything we want.

SabbathBlessings said:

Can you point out one verse in the NT where the Sabbath was associated with animal sacrifices and where the new moon feast continued in the NT.

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Why would it have to be in the New Testament? Are you suggesting that Jesus didn’t observe the new moon feasts? Because you keep quoting Luke 4:16 as evidence that if Jesus observed the sabbath then we are required to do the same. So I feel like you’re moving the bar when it comes to the evidence you require from our side.

BNR32FAN said:

Why would it have to be in the New Testament? Are you suggesting that Jesus didn’t observe the new moon feasts? Because you keep quoting Luke 4:16 as evidence that if Jesus observed the sabbath then we are required to do the same. So I feel like you’re moving the bar when it comes to the evidence you require from our side.

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Jesus came to end animal sacrifices and offerings Dan9:27 which He did Heb10:1-10. The poster I replied to made it sound like animal sacrifices were always connected to the seventh day Sabbath when they were not in the OT Exo20:11 Exo20:8-11 Lev23:3 Isa58:13, or in the NT where there is not one Scripture after the Cross that says the Sabbath was connected to animal sacrifices. The Sabbath continued on every Sabbath decades and decades later not connected to one animal sacrifice. Jesus ended all animal sacrifices they always pointed to Him because His blood is the only blood that can forgive sins.

Jesus came to magnify another law Isa 42:21 the one He places in His New Covenant believers hearts Heb8:10 which includes His Sabbath Isa56:6. God doesn;t make mistakes, we do by not fully trusting Him, plucking out one of His commandments that God placed together Himself that comes with the power of His blessing and sanctification.

SabbathBlessings said:

May I ask that you not speak for me and tell people what I mean. You are free to say what I think she may mean, instead of presenting it as a fact. I understand you are an ex-Adventists but there are some current professed Adventists that deliberately teach against core Adventists beliefs, even Jesus had a Judas, so it doesn't qualify one to speak for others. I appreciate it, thanks.

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He asked for you to elaborate on your view. You chose not to. I explained why it would be significant for the Sabbath to be made prior to the fall.

But, I have no problem with adding that it is my assessment of your view. I will edit with a note.

BNR32FAN said:

According to Hebrews 4 the sabbath is a representation of the rest we will receive in Christ, so in that regard I would say that it is a shadow since the “certain day” that is referred to as the sabbath day is “today” not the 7th day. Not to mention that Paul said it was a shadow of things to come in Colossians 2:17.

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We can probably only make progress in our understanding if we compare notes one Scripture at a time, and I think Col. 2 is probably better to start with.

But for now I will only state that I agree the rest in Hebrews 4 that we enter into "today", is certainly resting from our works by faith, and not the seventh-day Sabbath.

BNR32FAN said:

That interpretation of the NKJV doesn’t seem to align with the removal of the appointed time that follows in verse 16. With that interpretation verse 16 doesn’t really follow along with verses 14 & 15 whereas in the NASB it all ties together seamlessly. The purpose of the removal of appointed times lines up seamlessly with the disarming of the rulers and authorities and being judged for not keeping them.

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I don't think we are actually talking about a translation issue. In fact, I think the translation in the NASB is better than the NKJV in one key area here. But I am quoting the NKJV with Adventists because it is more fair to their position (or at least the vast majority position among Adventists) in its phrasing in this case, since a major area of focus in what is meant by "handwriting in decrees."

So I will spell out my take on it, and you can spell out yours, and we can see where we differ and why. I have changed my mind on various elements in the text before, so I can again if convinced by the text.

So let's start with where I think the NASB has it right in this regards.


It states that there was a certificate of debt consisting of decrees against them.

The reason for the translation, certificate of debts, is because, while this word only occurs once in the NT, it is used in contemporaneous literature for a hand-written certificate of indebtedness.

A person would write out that they owed such and such, and that became a binding agreement under law with regulations enforcing that they had agreed to the debt.

To put a bit of a picture to that, we see Paul making a handwritten certificate of debt in the letter to Philemon:

It is a record of what is owed, with power of law behind it.

This actually fits very well with the context, because this clause,

is a participial phrase, elaborating on the previous clause:

The wiping out of the certificate of debt is the elaboration upon "having forgiven us all our wrongdoings". Jesus, upon the cross, took away their sin. They no longer owed a debt due to their sin. The record of their sin was taken away.

So then, let's look at the next phrase:

First, I think the NKJV does a better job in one element of translating the last word here. It is likely referring to the cross, which, counter-intuitively Jesus used to triumph over the powers and principalities.

I think it is likely saying "having triumped over them through it"--the cross. This refers back to "having nailed it to the cross." Cross here is singular masculine, and so is the pronoun at the end of verse 15.

The usual understanding of this verse in its cultural context is that Jesus' victory over death and sin are seen in His resurrection (and if you look back a few verses the Colossians were buried with Him in baptism into His death, and raised with Him), which was a public triumph over them, evident to all. This is being compared to a Roman triumph, in which a victorious general would enter to great acclaim, and carry tokens of his victory with him, including enemy prisoners in tow.

Jesus, through the cross, triumphed over sin and death, not by taking away the law, but by taking away sin. Once the Colossian's sin is gone, they are free from death (in fact, they already died WITH Christ, and were raised to new life). Death no longer has power of them. It is disarmed. Per I Corinthians 15 the last enemy to be destroyed is death, but it is already triumphed over by Christ, who is parading in victory.

Satan was also triumphed over, per Hebrews:

Jesus triumphed over Satan, who held the power of death, by dying, and then rising again.

Ok, that is a lot, and there is more to go over. But before spelling out everything in my view, perhaps you could clarify yours a bit, as I am wondering about a few things:

• It seems you are indicating the appointed times listed in Colossians 16 are removed. Is that your view?
• Who are the rulers and authorities that are disarmed in your view?
• Are you interpreting the handwriting of requirements, or certificate of debt, as the passages outlining the appointed times in the law?
• How were the appointed times against the Colossians?

Feel free to elaborate as little or as much as you want on your view, so we can begin to compare.

SabbathBlessings said:

Can you point out one verse in the NT where the Sabbath was associated with animal sacrifices and where the new moon feast continued in the NT.

Can you point out at Creation where according to God the Sabbath started Exo20:11 or where there are sacrifices in the 4th commandment Exo20:8-11

While the Israelites made animal sacrifices daily including on the Sabbath because people sinned daily, the Sabbath was never only tied to animal sacrifices like the annual sabbath(s) were in the law of Moses. If you believe otherwise, please show with Scripture in the NT where they sacrificed one animal on the Sabbath day, that they continued to keep long after the Cross.

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Leviticus 16:31 teaches us that the Sabbath is a day of rest where we afflict our souls as a perpetual religion

Do SDA teach that we need to afflict our souls? I thought SDA teach against penance?

Leviticus 23

Teaches us that the Sabbath can be on any day of the week which God says it can occur. It is not limited to the seventh day. What is more important is what occurs on the Sabbath, rather than the day on which it occurs

The Sabbath is a day of rest which includes affliction of our souls. Examination of conscience and sacrifice to cover our sins

It says in Numbers 28:

[9] And on the sabbath day you shall offer two lambs of a year old without blemish, and two tenths of flour tempered with oil in sacrifice, and the libations, [10] Which regularly are poured out every sabbath for the perpetual holocaust


The priests were of the Levites who offered the sacrifice. The Jews kept these commands faithfully. I don’t know why you ask about animal sacrifices in the New Testament. The animal sacrifices continued until 70 AD when the temple was destroyed by the Romans. When there is no Temple and no sacrifice there is no longer any Sabbath. They would no longer be practicing Judaism, they would be remembering Judaism somewhat mournfully, somewhat pridefully.

Has God given us a Sabbath in the New Testament? He has taken the Sabbath which was a shadow of the things to come and has replaced it with His own body and blood.
The Sabbath involves four important acts to make it valid, rest from our labors, examination of conscience aka affliction of souls, consuming the sacrifice to wash away our sins, and communion with God. If your gatherings do not include the consuming of the sacrifice, are you really keeping Sabbath? Short answers, no.

The New Testament says very clear, when we read in Hebrews that Jesus is a priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedech. This is significant because in Genesis 14, Melchisedech offers bread and wine. Jesus then institutes bread and wine as a perpetual memorial sacrifice of Himself.

According to Numbers, the Sabbath was to have a perpetual holocaust. No holocaust, then no Sabbath. In the New Testament, the animal sacrifices have ceased as Jesus offered Himself as the Lamb of God.
Priests offer sacrifice, Jesus is a priest forever according to the order of Melchisedech. This can only mean that His body and blood is perpetually offered in the appearance of bread and wine, as the Sabbath requires a perpetual holocaust to be a vaild Sabbath

As Paul asks in 1 Cor 10:16, the chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?


The Sabbath is not just a day, and we see even in the Old Covenant, that the Sabbath was not limited to one day, the Sabbath is communion with God, which involves rest from our labors, affliction of our souls, and consumption of the sacrifice to be a Sabbath

Christ sacrifice is not offered and then forgotten. He is perpetually remembered, as He is a priest forever according to the order of Melchisedech.

So you have a Bible study on Saturday and sometimes have a potluck? Sounds ok, but that is not keeping Sabbath, according to scripture

Mercy Shown said:

So then you must also support cutting off one of your limbs or gouging out one of you eyes if they offend you.

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If it would take away my sin, I would, but since that would not be effective in removing my sin, it would be an absurd act. Christ was speaking in hyperbole.

Denying myself, taking up my cross and following the Lord wherever He leads, that I can do, along with repentance and mortifying the deeds of my flesh as His grace enables