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RFK Jr Takes Family Swimming in Contaminated River

ThatRobGuy

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You do realize the topic is Bobby Kennedy, not drug policy, right?
You introduced the fact that he was involved in the heroin trade...

People were trying to make it sound like he was a uniquely bad or "wonky" public health official. I rebutted that with examples of other public health officials that held ideas every bit as controversial, including one who tried to get cocaine legalized so that her son could get off the hook for being a coke dealer.


It's not my fault that people have adopted the mindset that "the be all end all of human health is solely dependent on how much they love vaccines", and seem to want to prioritize that aspect of human health over any and all others... pretty sure that was a byproduct of the politicized nature of the covid pandemic.

The fact that people want to keep the topic confined to RFK is telling...goes back to what I mentioned before. If people bring up flaws with a particular person, but don't want to entertain any comparable flaws involving anyone else and want the laser focus just to be on that one particular person, then it's not the flaw they're actually concerned with.
 
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stevil

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People were trying to make it sound like he was a uniquely bad or "wonky" public health official.
He is "uniquely bad" as head of HHS. Terrible in fact. His appointment will lead to unnecessary lives lost and plenty of rotten teeth.
 
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stevil

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I rebutted that with examples of other public health officials that held ideas every bit as controversial, including one who tried to get cocaine legalized so that her son could get off the hook for being a coke dealer.
That doesn't help your case. Showing that someone else had a bad idea, certainly doesn't help at all in the case of defending RFK Jr's horrific ideas.

It's not my fault that people have adopted the mindset that "the be all end all of human health is solely dependent on how much they love vaccines"
That's called a strawman, and it is disingenuous.
Ask anyone if they think "the be all end all of human health is solely dependent on how much they love vaccines" and I bet no one will agree that they believe in this position.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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That's called a strawman, and it is disingenuous.
Ask anyone if they think "the be all end all of human health is solely dependent on how much they love vaccines" and I bet no one will agree that they believe in this position.
No, it's not a strawman...

For well over a decade, progressives have repeatedly said "we should do things like Scandinavia"

Well, much to the dismay of of some progressives, in countries like Norway and Denmark, vaccines are optional with the concept of "informed consent" heavily injected (pun intended) into the framework.


Or to put it more bluntly:
Progressives: "We should be more like Scandinavia in term of healthcare"

"Okay, well those countries make vaccines optional, they put more emphasis on nutrition and food additive regulation, they cap abortions at 12-16 weeks, and they've heavily reigned in, and adopted more cautious approaches to, gender affirming care, and have implemented restrictions on fluoride... so that's what you want then??" (because that's basically the RFK health platform)

Progressives: "NOOOO! we were only talking about the tax the rich people so everyone else can have it for free part"


...and were there, or were there not, people who both embraced the "healthy at any size" movement while simultaneously vilifying people who didn't feel the need to get a 4th booster jab for covid?
 
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Hans Blaster

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You introduced the fact that he was involved in the heroin trade...
Only because you were talking about "drug legalization" and some Surgeon General and her son with a drug arrest. Just trying to get things back to Mr. Kennedy.
People were trying to make it sound like he was a uniquely bad or "wonky" public health official. I rebutted that with examples of other public health officials that held ideas every bit as controversial, including one who tried to get cocaine legalized so that her son could get off the hook for being a coke dealer.
Your usual distraction game. If we don't say "uniquely", but just "really really bad" would that be better?

(Also, it isn't "wonky". "Wonky" as in "policy wonk" is bout being deep in the details of some policy issue that it may be ignoring the big picture. It is term that may be applied to many of your politics posts. Sometimes that is fine. Kennedy is a kook or a loon, not a wonk.)
It's not my fault that people have adopted the mindset that "the be all end all of human health is solely dependent on how much they love vaccines", and seem to want to prioritize that aspect of human health over any and all others... pretty sure that was a byproduct of the politicized nature of the covid pandemic.
Kennedy's anti-vax positions are just the red flag that catches our attention first. Then we notice he is pushing quack cures and medicine, and finally (and something you have ignored when brought up) he has zero experience managing the large government agency he is tasked with including the largest social insurance programs and largest research agency in the US.
The fact that people want to keep the topic confined to RFK is telling...goes back to what I mentioned before. If people bring up flaws with a particular person, but don't want to entertain any comparable flaws involving anyone else and want the laser focus just to be on that one particular person, then it's not the flaw they're actually concerned with.
It should be telling you that we aren't interested in your distractions. You'll notice that we are not discussing other poorly qualified or manifestly unqualified or dangerous members of Trump's cabinet like Gabbard, Hegseth, etc.
 
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stevil

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No, it's not a strawman...
Where did you get your phrase from?
"the be all end all of human health is solely dependent on how much they love vaccines"

Did someone say it to you, or did you just make that up? I expect that you made it up, and then proceed to tear it down.
What is the definition of a strawman???
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Your usual distraction game. If we don't say "uniquely", but just "really really bad" would that be better?
Actually, yes it would.

...because it would at least be an acknowledgment that millions of people sat idly by while a bunch of other nonsense went on and didn't care in the slightest, but then opted to put laser focus on it and pretend to see it as a "big deal" when someone was affiliated with a politician they didn't like.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Where did you get your phrase from?
"the be all end all of human health is solely dependent on how much they love vaccines"

Did someone say it to you, or did you just make that up? I expect that you made it up, and then proceed to tear it down.
What is the definition of a strawman???
It was based on my own observations....

I personally know people (friends and family) who are 300+ pounds, get winded walking up a flight of stairs, smoke, drink to excess, eat fast food multiple times a week... pretending that they care more about health simply because of their position on the covid vaccine.

They don't care more about health... if they did, they'd make lifestyle changes. Vaccines are the things people can use to pretend they care about health, but not have to actually make an sacrifices because getting a booster jab doesn't really involve any effort.

I've had more than one of my family members who cough up a lung every morning, and eat 20,000 calories worth of absolute garbage every week, imply that I "don't care about health" because I decided to stop after my 3rd jab (meanwhile, I'm in my forties, can still run 5 miles pretty effortlessly, 6'1 190lbs with visible abs and blood panel numbers that would put a lot of 20-somethings to shame)

My personal anecdotes aside...the fact that people will post selfies of themselves with a band-aid on their shoulder with a "#DoingMyPart" frame shows that they're disproportionately prioritizing that aspect.
 
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stevil

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It was based on my own observations....
Perhaps instead, you ought to ask people what their position is.
If you think they only care about vaccines, then ask them, I bet they will say they are capable of thinking and caring about a great many things.

I personally know people (friends and family) who are 300+ pounds, get winded walking up a flight of stairs, smoke, drink to excess, eat fast food multiple times a week... pretending that they care more about health simply because of their position on the covid vaccine.
I don't get what your point is.

They don't care more about health... if they did, they'd make lifestyle changes.
Really bizzare thinking patterns you have here. Like you think an obese person can't be worried about catching or passing on an infectious disease.
You think a person needs to be absolutely perfect before they are allowed to worry about diseases?


Vaccines are the things people can use to pretend they care about health,
Oh boy.
but not have to actually make an sacrifices because getting a booster jab doesn't really involve any effort.
Except there were many many MAGAs that couldn't even make that sacrifice in order to try and save lives in the community. What about my rights? Wah, don't force me to do it? How dare you! wah, wah..
I've had more than one of my family members who cough up a lung every morning, and eat 20,000 calories worth of absolute garbage every week, imply that I "don't care about health" because I decided to stop after my 3rd jab (meanwhile, I'm in my forties, can still run 5 miles pretty effortlessly, 6'1 190lbs with visible abs and blood panel numbers that would put a lot of 20-somethings to shame)
Ooh, exciting. Perhaps vanity is making you hate overweight people. IDK?
My personal anecdotes aside...the fact that people will post selfies of themselves with a band-aid on their shoulder with a "#DoingMyPart" frame shows that they're disproportionately prioritizing that aspect.
No, doesn't show that at all. They are just trying to promote use of vaccines during a global pandemic in the hope people band together and try to save lives.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Actually, yes it would.

...because it would at least be an acknowledgment that millions of people sat idly by while a bunch of other nonsense went on and didn't care in the slightest, but then opted to put laser focus on it and pretend to see it as a "big deal" when someone was affiliated with a politician they didn't like.
I've disliked RFK,JR. since I learned he existed. (And trump since the mid 80s.)
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Ooh, exciting. Perhaps vanity is making you hate overweight people. IDK?

No, it's this general notion of people wanting to claim credit for "doing something" while actually only being willing to engage in the low-effort, low-sacrifice virtue signaling.

Follows the similar train of thought as the people who go on social media tirades about "tax the rich" and "expand Medicaid" as a means of showing everyone else "See, look at me, I care about the issue of poverty!" (just in ways that don't involve any effort or sacrifice from them, personally)

They are just trying to promote use of vaccines during a global pandemic in the hope people band together and try to save lives.
No they're trying to promote their own images and bona fides as "trust the science" people.

It seems that promoting weight loss, exercise, and healthy diet would save a lot of lives too... but they won't touch that one because they don't want to be called "fat phobic".

They'll go hard on the anti-vaxxers, but barely say a peep about the fat pride and "healthy at any size" body positivity movements.

It it didn't even have to be anti-vaxxers, a person simply saying "You know, I just had the infection and recovered 2 months ago, I'm 30, healthy with no comorbidities, I don't feel need to rush out and get jabbed just yet" was enough to get them maligned. Yet a person who does virtually nothing else good for their own health gets a 4th booster, and they're praised for "doing their part" and "following the science".
 
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Hans Blaster

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No, it's this general notion of people wanting to claim credit for "doing something" while actually only being willing to engage in the low-effort, low-sacrifice virtue signaling.
Could you stop this cynical insistence that taking a position on a issue is about "virtue signaling" or social credit? It's really annoying and not correct.
Second, could you stop assuming that two positions that you think are correlated are actually correlated?
Third, could you realize that no one is completely consistent in their positions?
Finally, could you please realize that even when someone agrees that two positions are correlated the same way that you do, it doesn't mean they can't find one to be more important than the other?

Thanks.

Follows the similar train of thought as the people who go on social media tirades about "tax the rich" and "expand Medicaid" as a means of showing everyone else "See, look at me, I care about the issue of poverty!" (just in ways that don't involve any effort or sacrifice from them, personally)
This is a perfect example of this problem of assumption. Expanding Medicaid would almost certainly improve health status for the poorest and next to poorest Americans (you know, those ones with the bad diets of cheap processed foods you rail about above and below). It would probably have some impact on poverty levels, but mostly on the health of the poor. If you really wanted to have the biggest impact on poverty it would be in support programs for parents (Child care tax credit, Earned income tax credit) at the same level of expenditure.

As for "Tax the Rich" (though Aerosmith had it better in the mid-90s, its the only thing the rich are very good for), they are the ones with the money available to be taxed. Taxing the poor certainly isn't going generate the revenue to lift the poor out of poverty. Let those with 6-figure incomes carry the burden, they can afford it.
No they're trying to promote their own images and bona fides as "trust the science" people.
[Face palm], [facepalm], [double facepalm], [naked_gun facepalm], [Picard-Riker facepalm]

Are you *trying* to demonstrate you are in the anti-science group? This mocking use of "trust the science" has been enthusiastically adopted by all of the anti-science movements, old and new, since Faucci said it ONCE. (Is this your virtue signalling?)

It seems that promoting weight loss, exercise, and healthy diet would save a lot of lives too... but they won't touch that one because they don't want to be called "fat phobic".

They'll go hard on the anti-vaxxers, but barely say a peep about the fat pride and "healthy at any size" body positivity movements.
Here we get to my other points. You are making assumptions about those who are vocally against the anti-vax, including projecting your ideas about what they should value on to them.

The "obesity crisis" is not new, or rapidly moving. It has been slowly growing for *DECADES* with the development of air conditioning, TV and gaming, HFCS, increasing office work and commutes, processed grains, etc. It is not new or rapidly changing. Can we do things to slow or reverse it? Of course. Healthier meals in schools, regulation of snack food industry practices, subsidizing less processed and fresh foods for poor people, putting in sidewalks and letting kids roam the neighborhood again, etc. Some of these the federal government could do (but not all in HHS), some they can't.


[Finally on "body shaming" and "body positivity". The first of this movement was decades ago to prevent the physical and psychological harm being done via anorexia because of the obsession of correlating thinness with health and beauty. "Fat pride" is a far newer thing that isn't nearly as popular as you seem to think it is. But that doesn't mean you should assume that every really skinny person is anorexic or a heroin user, or that every fat person lacks control or is lazy. These kinds of moral judgement are good and are rather mean. What is the best and healthiest course for them is between them and their doctors, not you or I. (See Medicaid expansion discussion above.)]


The anti-vax movement *is* an existential threat to public health. It was bubbling under the surface at a manageable level for decades, but the (very politicized) reaction against the COVID vaccines has supercharged it. A drop in vaccination rates will push protection for many diseases below the "herd immunity" levels that keep outbreaks localized and contained. Measles will be the first to become endemic again (it is one of the most infectious diseases out there), but others will follow.

Whatever "help" Kennedy can make on the "healthy eating and exercise" front will be wiped out completely when deadly diseases become endemic again. Other HHS secretaries (along with FDA commissioners, Surgeon Generals, etc.) could make the same case for those "positive" things, but no other administration even considered putting anti-vaxers in prominent health-associated position. That is his "unique" deficiency.
It it didn't even have to be anti-vaxxers, a person simply saying "You know, I just had the infection and recovered 2 months ago, I'm 30, healthy with no comorbidities, I don't feel need to rush out and get jabbed just yet" was enough to get them maligned. Yet a person who does virtually nothing else good for their own health gets a 4th booster, and they're praised for "doing their part" and "following the science".
Quit being so self-centered. Learn about social encouragement.
 
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stevil

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No, it's this general notion of people wanting to claim credit
You seem to have a massive bug bear about some perception of people claiming credit.

When people promote that they have got the vaccine, they aren't claiming credit, they are promoting people to take the vaccine.
During a pandemic it is very important to get a very high percentage of people vaccinated. No one is claiming credit, what does that even mean?
 
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Hans Blaster

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Not yet, (AFAIK), but the Washington Post is close to post mortum.
The Onion's goal is to have more print subscribers than the Post. Their getting close.

From a recent "RFK" article about cow fluids:

"At press time, Kennedy had reportedly been placed on an intravenous drip of bovine cerebrospinal fluid after unwittingly drinking from a cow that had been vaccinated."​
 
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