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Is Scripture still inerrant according to theistic evolution?

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The Barbarian

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I'm here for the entertainment value of reading the evo's post as fact what is mostly only their opinion.
You seem to be getting more and more agitated and verbally aggressive. Doesn't seem like you're entertained. And yeah I know that people from all sides of the issue are criticizing you. That probably feels they're ganging up on you. I'm pretty thick-skinned, and so this kind of give-and-take doesn't bother me. But I'll try to be more gentle in my replies from here on out.

However, all that talk about tiktaalik is a good lead into Lent, don't you think?
Turns out the "barnacle goose"was a popular myth in the Middle Ages. Some argued that a quadruped (a particular species of goose) was actually a "fish", starting out life as a barnacle. And thereby, claimed to be legitimate for Lenten meals. So Tiktaalik isn't the first case of quadruped confusion on the part of laymen. Pope Innocent III put an end to that happy delusion, BTW.
 
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o_mlly

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From the Catechism:
47 The Church teaches that the one true God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty from his works, by the natural light of human reason (cf. Vatican Council I, can. 2 # 1: DS 3026),
? And this teaching applies to this thread because .... (fill in the blank).
Evolution, which depends on evidence, has nothing whatever to do with faith. What do you think?
Nope. Faith in the scientific method at least ... more so on the confidence in indirect evidence, and even mores so on interpreting the observations correctly. Do you know which discipline gives "science" its definition?
 
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River Jordan

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For all the back and forth over whether intelligent design is science and offers a valid scientific proposal, IMO it's more interesting to wonder where the IDists' science is. The Wedge Strategy that @The Barbarian quoted from was written in 1998, almost 3 decades ago! Their goals were to have ID be widely accepted in science and research into ID being done by 2003 and see ID become the dominant paradigm in science by 2018. How'd that work out? :p

They had lots of money to hire lawyers to lobby school boards, go on speaking tours of American churches, write alternative textbooks, make movies, etc., but actually do science into ID? I guess not.

Unless I missed something the entire effort has been a complete and utter failure. ID hasn't been incorporated into or utilized by any biology program, private or public, anywhere. So what is there to argue about? ID is nothing more than a failed idea with absolutely no practical utility.
 
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o_mlly

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You seem to be getting more and more agitated and verbally aggressive. Doesn't seem like you're entertained.
More agitated? Verbally aggressive? Nope. Reading your tea leaves again?
Doesn't seem like you're entertained. And yeah I know that people from all sides of the issue are criticizing you.
Galileo is one of my favorite characters. Criticized and ostracized, he was finally validated. That sort of thing happens often to those on the fringe willing to tell the emperor he has no clothes. Paradigm shifts are not fun for those whose careers are about to end. But being right is more important than being popular, don't you think? Stay tuned. Hegel was right ... neo-Darwinism may have had a good run but its time is running out.
I'm pretty thick-skinned, and so this kind of give-and-take doesn't bother me.
Really ... doesn't bother you? So, just how many "tea and doggie petting breaks" have you needed to take so far in this thread?

And, as to identifying the true "badgerer", if one looks at the thread scientifically, they will see who is the "badgerer" and the "badgeree".
 
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Job 33:6

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For all the back and forth over whether intelligent design is science and offers a valid scientific proposal, IMO it's more interesting to wonder where the IDists' science is. The Wedge Strategy that @The Barbarian quoted from was written in 1998, almost 3 decades ago! Their goals were to have ID be widely accepted in science and research into ID being done by 2003 and see ID become the dominant paradigm in science by 2018. How'd that work out? :p

They had lots of money to hire lawyers to lobby school boards, go on speaking tours of American churches, write alternative textbooks, make movies, etc., but actually do science into ID? I guess not.

Unless I missed something the entire effort has been a complete and utter failure. ID hasn't been incorporated into or utilized by any biology program, private or public, anywhere. So what is there to argue about? ID is nothing more than a failed idea with absolutely no practical utility.
Haha, yes, that's about the sum of it.

Did you catch the latest news with Casey luskin clipping out and omitting inconvenient data while critiquing a research paper on genetic similarity between people and the great apes?

He was trying to hide data from his audience and ended up getting called out on it.
 
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The Barbarian

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From the Catechism:
47 The Church teaches that the one true God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty from his works, by the natural light of human reason (cf. Vatican Council I, can. 2 # 1: DS 3026),

And this teaching applies to this thread because ....
You were asking whether reason or faith is more important. Evolution, which depends on evidence, has nothing whatever to do with faith. What do you think?

Nope. Faith in the scientific method at least ..
No, that's wrong, too. Evolution is an observed phenomenon. Scientists accept evolutionary theory because it's predictions have been repeatedly verified by evidence. The only assumption is uniformitarianism, the idea that the rules by which the universe operates are consistent and have been so since the beginning. God is not a god of confusion, so it's consistent with our faith.

Do you know which discipline give "science" its definition?

science(n.)

mid-14c., "state or fact of knowing; what is known, knowledge (of something) acquired by study; information;" also "assurance of knowledge, certitude, certainty," from Old French science "knowledge, learning, application; corpus of human knowledge" (12c.), from Latin scientia "knowledge, a knowing; expertness," from sciens (genitive scientis) "intelligent, skilled," present participle of scire "to know."
...
From late 14c. in English as "book-learning," also "a particular branch of knowledge or of learning, systematized knowledge regarding a particular group of objects;" also "skillfulness, cleverness; craftiness." From c. 1400 as "experiential knowledge;" also "a skill resulting from training, handicraft; a trade."

From late 14c. in the more specific sense of "collective human knowledge," especially that gained by systematic observation, experiment, and reasoning. The modern (restricted) sense of "body of regular or methodical observations or propositions concerning a particular subject or speculation" is attested by 1725; in 17c.-18c. this commonly was philosophy.


The first scientists were what the Greeks called philosophers. In that time, they were astronomers, mathematicians, etc. Classical Greek philosophers measured the circumference of the Earth, discovered the heliocentric system, and inferred the existence of atoms.
 
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River Jordan

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River Jordan

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Haha, yes, that's about the sum of it.

Did you catch the latest news with Casey luskin clipping out and omitting inconvenient data while critiquing a research paper on genetic similarity between people and the great apes?

He was trying to hide data from his audience and ended up getting called out on it.
LOL, no I didn't catch that. I stopped following that nonsense a while ago. It's not surprising though and it's not the first time Luskin has been busted being blatantly dishonest.

Intelligent design is as relevant to biology as a flat earth is to cartography. :D
 
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The Barbarian

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More agitated? Verbally aggressive? Nope
I see the denial. At any rate, I'll try to be more calming in my comments to you.
Galileo is one of my favorite characters. Criticized and ostracized, he was finally validated.
He was mostly right about his observations, although Aristarchus of Samos had figured it our long before Galileo. He never realized that the sun was just another star, as Aristarchus realized. Galileo's problems were mostly because he was one of the smartest guys in Europe, and was fond of telling everyone else how much smarter he was than they were. And then he insulted the Pope, who up to that time had protected him and encouraged him to continue his investigations.

He got some things wrong, too. For example, he attributed tides to the Earth's motion. Kepler had already figured out that it was the attraction of the moon. Because Kepler couldn't explain the force involved, Galileo rejected that idea. The glaring flaw in Galileo's hypothesis was that if it was due to motion, there would be one tide per day, not two, whereas the moon's gravity is consistent with two tides a day.
 
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The Barbarian

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River Jordan

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Glenn Morton was once a confirmed YEC. Only after years of finding YEC prediction false did he reluctantly accept that evolution is a fact.
I didn't know that! Thanks! :)
 
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The Barbarian

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I didn't know that! Thanks! :)

I had the pleasure of discussing things with Glen Morton on a forum years ago. He was a gentleman and rigorously honest intellectually. Not always right, but always seeking the truth, no matter where it might take him. IIRC, he was skeptical of anthropogenic climate change. The fact that he worked for years as an oil company geologist might have had something to do with that.
 
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SavedByFaithAlone

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So, I have recently become convinced of theistic evolution and see Genesis as mytho-history.

Something I am still wrestling with is the extent of the Bible's infallibility.

I think the Bible is true in everything it teaches, and contains no errors (aside from perhaps scribal errors) but that doesn't mean we ought to impose our modern 21st Century assumptions onto the text. The Scriptures, are first, and foremost, a theological text. I do accept most of the accounts in the OT as having actually happened and many figures mentioned as being real people, but I also recognize the Bible also was written under the author's cultural context and uses figurative language and embellishments.

However, I would still say I am affirm the Evangelical view of inerrancy and the verbal plenary inspiration of Scripture. I just don't think evolution and non-literal understanding of the text contradict a high view of Scriptures

I've seen some Christians claim the Bible is infallible only in matters of faith and practice, and tbh, I'm not sure where I land.

What about you?
I’m fully convinced that the Bible is 100% inspired by God and that the Earth is approximately 6,000 years old, and I’ll tell you some of the reasons why.

The models of the secular scientists are built on many presumptions. For example, they estimated Pluto to be a cold dwarf planet, but when they take a closer look, they are baffled by their findings as it still has volcanic activity. So they try to rethink their conclusions, but they never go with the obvious reason that stares them in the face: the universe is young. It is always some other path that they seek, and it is never a young universe because they are intent on showing the Bible to be wrong even if that means that they remain baffled in their findings.

Here’s an obvious one:

The Earth can’t be billions of years old. The moon is slowly receding away from the Earth at about 2 to 3 inches per year. If we were to rewind the clock, it is not possible for the moon or Earth to be 4.53 billion years old as the “scientists” say. This movement is not linear. The closer the moon is to the Earth the faster it is moving. It if were twice as close to the Earth, it would be 64 times as fast. The moon would be touching the Earth a billion years ago. This would tear the Earth to pieces and boil away the oceans. The Earth is purported to be 4.5 billion years old. 6,000 years ago, on the Bible’s timescale, the moon would have moved only about a few hundred feet.

Here’s another regarding evolution and information:

It is impossible for Evolution to create information. Evolution can never create DNA, as random chance processes, given a zillion years, can never create information. DNA is programming code based on reasoning, algorithms, and logic. It creates code that tells proteins how to make functioning protein structures and machine building factories that make organelles for cell function. Information cannot create itself. Chance from evolution can never produce logical code-based language no matter how many zillions of years you give it. Hence, evolution can never create DNA.

DNA is much more complicated than computer code. Computer code is based on T’s and F’s (trues and falses). DNA doubles the parameters: A, C, G, and T. It even includes a self-correcting mechanism for errors. Random chance processes cannot create code language that is based on logic and reasoning.

The sands on the shore will never spell out a sentence no matter how many billions of years the wind blows on it. A computer program will never create itself. Only an intelligent being is able to program the information within the miles of strands of DNA, which contain information.

One more regarding male and female:
Gender (I mean: male and female) debunks evolution. Evolution cannot and does not create in pairs. Where did sex begin? By Evolution’s definition: Evolution requires millions of years for something to randomly evolve by chance processes. If by chance, Evolution was to somehow create an egg producing female anatomy by random chance processes over millions of years, it cannot at the same moment of time and the same place randomly generate a male compatible counterpart to get to the next generation. The original female will die before her male counterpart evolves through millions of years of random chance processes. Both male and female would have to be created on the same day and proximity. But the Bible says that God created man in His own image, both male and female He created them.

I could keep going and this could get long; for the sake of brevity, I’ll stop there. But it is important to understand that God and His Word are real. He said that He spoke the universe into being in only 6 literal days and rested on the seventh. Those 6 days is His miracle week. God does not require the laws of physics during His miracle week. An observer of His creation can only use the laws of physics within His creation to try to figure out what happened at the beginning. But God is outside of His laws and physics. Physics does not govern the mechanisms of creation. God’s word miraculously spoke it into existence. God’s truth usurps facts. Facts say that a person cannot rise from the dead or walk on water or immediately stop a storm by speaking to it; but God’s Truth says otherwise.

I’ll hint at a few more: even DNA of humans trace back only to 6,000 years. But you won’t get this information from secular scientists; you’ll have to start learning from Christian scientists that do not start their findings from a model of secular assumptions. Even Pharoah’s army of chariots was recently discovered and filmed under the middle of the Red Sea, but this has gone under wraps on secular media because they do not want people to know anything that goes against their secular world view. You’ll have to find this by searching. I really could go on and on, but this should suffice.
 
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The Barbarian

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The Earth can’t be billions of years old. The moon is slowly receding away from the Earth at about 2 to 3 inches per year. If we were to rewind the clock, it is not possible for the moon or Earth to be 4.53 billion years old as the “scientists” say. This movement is not linear. The closer the moon is to the Earth the faster it is moving. It if were twice as close to the Earth, it would be 64 times as fast. The moon would be touching the Earth a billion years ago. This would tear the Earth to pieces and boil away the oceans. The Earth is purported to be 4.5 billion years old. 6,000 years ago, on the Bible’s timescale, the moon would have moved only about a few hundred feet.
Turns out, we can determine the distance of the moon at different times in the past. Tidal rythmites are preserved tidal traces that became hardened rock.
López, Vanina Lucrecia & Azarevich, Miguel. (2017).
Lunar recession encoded in tidal rhythmites: a selective overview with examples from Argentina.
Geo-Marine Letters. 37. 10.1007/s00367-017-0500-z
.

Several theories about our Moon’s formation vie for dominance, but almost all share that point in common: near the time of the solar system’s formation, about 4.5 billion years ago, something ― perhaps a single object the size of Mars, perhaps a series of objects ― crashed into the young Earth and flung enough molten and vaporized debris into space to create the Moon.

Interestingly, the recession speed has varied over time, because the moon is gaining energy from tidal drag, and that depends in part on the shape of the continents.
 
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The Barbarian

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Here’s another regarding evolution and information:

It is impossible for Evolution to create information.
That's a testable belief let's look at a simple case. The formula for genetic information in a population for a given gene is:
1770946248463.png

Where:
H(X) is information and pi is the frequency of the ith allele in the population.

So if there are two alleles, each with a frequency of 0.5, then the information for that gene is about 0.301.
Let's suppose a mutation produced a new allele, and the population evolves so that all of them have a frequency of about 0.333. Then the information is about 0.477. Evolution produced new information.

Chance from evolution can never produce logical code-based language no matter how many zillions of years you give it.
Two errors there; first Darwin's great discovery is that it doesn't happen by chance. Second, evolutionary theory is not about the origin of life. Darwin, for example, assumed God made the first living things. You would do better if you knew more about it.

But it is important to understand that God and His Word are real. He said that He spoke the universe into being in only 6 literal days and rested on the seventh.
That's man's interpretation, not God's word. And many Christians interpret it in other ways. Even ancient Christians like St. Augustine knew they were not literal 24 hour days.

I’ll hint at a few more: even DNA of humans trace back only to 6,000 years.
You've been misled about that. We have much older DNA from humans. Would you like to learn about it?

Even Pharoah’s army of chariots was recently discovered and filmed under the middle of the Red Sea,
This is just people taking a satire seriously:
Archaeologists did not unearth the bones of Egyptian soldiers, weapons and chariots to prove the biblical account of the parting of the Red Sea, despite the false claims of many stories reporting otherwise.

A story first published by a satire site, World News Daily Report, and then picked up by many other outlets, claimed scientists led by Professor Abdel Muhammad Gader of Cairo University found the bones, and chariots, in the Gulf of Suez.

The university says in an email to The Associated Press that it has no professor by that name and it hasn’t been involved in any excavations there.

The original version of the story included a photo of divers holding a skull. It was taken from a 2014 National Geographic article about an ancient skeleton discovered in a flooded Mexican cave.


I gave you a link so you won't have to search.
 
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o_mlly

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It is unfortunate that those who have invested so much time and energy into a scientific theory that is coming, as all science theories do, to an end become bitter. They inflate their egos in an attempt to compensate for undersized intellects and resort to ad hominems.. Rather than taking solace with your "online" friends who, like you, have closed minds and are trying to cope with the demise of MS, realize that that end was inevitable. Remember, I was in charity helping to soften the depression that awaits you all.
 
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The Barbarian

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It is unfortunate that those who have invested so much time and energy into a scientific theory that is coming, as all science theories do, to an end become bitter.
We already showed you that ID is not a scientific theory. The Wedge Document shows that it's a religious doctrine. And not all of them are bitter about the way it fell apart after the Dover decision.

They inflate their egos in an attempt to compensate for undersized intellects
Some of them are pretty smart people. Michael Denton, for example.
and resort to ad hominems.
Do you think "undersized intellects" is an ad hominem?
 
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o_mlly

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Do you think "undersized intellects" is an ad hominem?
The truth sometimes hurts those who have turned their backs to it.

"Undersized intellects" can be identified by those who use leading and loaded questions or statements rather than open and honest ones.

Examples: When exactly did you stop caring about truth and become politically protective of evo theory? When debating, why do you constantly put your super-sized ego in front of your headlights? I trust that answers your question.
 
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John Bauer

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It is unfortunate that those who have invested so much time and energy into a scientific theory that is coming, as all science theories do, to an end become bitter. They inflate their egos in an attempt to compensate for undersized intellects and resort to ad hominems.

I'm not the only one who saw the irony, right?
 
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John Bauer

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Examples: When exactly did you stop caring about truth and become politically protective of evo theory? When debating, why do you constantly put your super-sized ego in front of your headlights? I trust that answers your question.

Another example: When did you stop beating your wife? (link).
 
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