Two Aspects of Salvation (Believers Need to Be Concerned With):

Bible Highlighter · Wednesday at 11:55 AM

under grace1 said:
Then let us hope, if you are correct a believer does not have a lustful thought when they are crossing the road, just before they get run over by a bus

Okay. Look. I did not write the verses in Scripture where Jesus talks about how a person can be cast bodily into hellfire for looking upon a woman in lust. God inspired Matthew to write those words and not me. You either believe them or you don't. It just seems like you don't like those particular words by the Lord Jesus Christ, and so they must either be ignored or re-interpreted to fit your belief.

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Bible Highlighter · Wednesday at 12:01 PM

under grace1 said:
I don't like long posts so do not repond to them
Yes, the moral law remains, not coveting remains, it does not cease to exist due to the two greatest commandments existing

Well, there is no sense in having any kind of discussion under these kinds of restraints if you are not willing to hear what I have to say with Scripture.

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Bible Highlighter · Wednesday at 12:04 PM

childeye 2 said:
Let me say it this way. I agree a person can make a righteous judgment 'IF' they see clearly and subsequently are not blinded by something. With that said, in John 7:24 I cannot infer Jesus is commanding me to go and judge others. Out of love for another I might be compelled to confide with a person to express concerns about their condition. Some may misconstrue my actions as judging. I think the semantics here change according to belief in synergism or monergism, free will or faith. In monergism, "faith" is a gift given; in synergism, it is a choice made.

That's not what you were saying before. You took the other passages on hypocritical judgment as some kind of "We cannot judge" type mantra, when that is not what it was saying. Generally, the types of believers who say, "We are not to judge others," don't understand the context and know that judgments were made by Christ's followers. Generally, in my experience with others on Christian forums, this is to defend the “sin and still be saved” type of belief.

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Bible Highlighter · Wednesday at 12:11 PM

To all:

To those who believe here that they can abide in sin and still be saved by just having a belief in Jesus alone, did you believe this is what Christians believed in your church before you accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior?

If so, this would explain a lot.
Granted, I am not saying that all believers in Christ, such as yourselves or all others, experienced this, but it would not surprise me if this were the case for many.

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under grace1 · Wednesday at 12:23 PM

Bible Highlighter said:
Uh, but before you were not saying that. You were saying that it was one of the 10 commandments. There is no such thing as the 10 commandments anymore. They do not exist as a unit because the Saturday Sabbath is no longer a binding command, and as you said, God's laws are written on the hearts of his people in the New Covenant. However, this is not the case for the sin and still be saved Salvationist or the OSAS believer because they turn God's grace into lasciviousness. Meaning, they do not believe God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and to live righteously as Scripture says. Most Christians in the United States believe Christ did it all and you are to just believe in the finished work of the cross. This is even at the expense of how they live. Meaning, they pick and choose to believe in what verses they want to believe.

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OK I will rephrase, what was written in nine of the TC is now in the hearts and minds of believers

under grace1 · Wednesday at 12:24 PM

Bible Highlighter said:
Well, there is no sense in having any kind of discussion under these kinds of restraints if you are not willing to hear what I have to say with Scripture.

…..

No point at all if it is just going to be hugely long posts with random scriptures attached no.

under grace1 · Wednesday at 12:28 PM

Bible Highlighter said:
Okay. Look. I did not write the verses in Scripture where Jesus talks about how a person can be cast bodily into hellfire for looking upon a woman in lust. God inspired Matthew to write those words and not me. You either believe them or you don't. It just seems like you don't like those particular words by the Lord Jesus Christ, and so they must either be ignored or re-interpreted to fit your belief.

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But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart

So if a believer has an impure thought, they need to repent of it before they die or they end up in hell?

Personally speaking, I will always tell God I am sorry when I err as surely as night follows day. No one would have to tell me to do it, it is the natural thing to do, same as telling anyone you love you are sorry when you err concerning them

childeye 2 · Wednesday at 12:45 PM

Bible Highlighter said:
You cannot claim that Hitler was wrong for exterminating the Jews?
You cannot claim that a child abused by another and testified to the man who did it with irrefutable proof (like video footage) for the court to have, is not wrong or evil?
Was not Judas wrong for betraying Jesus? Can you not judge that? If so, that doesn't make any sense.
You would have to turn a blind eye to all immoral things in this life and just act like no evil exists for you to recognize or to affect you in any way. Don't certain crimes upset you in this life? Even silent judging is still judging. Did Paul not correct various churches? Did he not say to follow his example as Christ is his example? Are you new to reading the Bible?

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That's a lot of questions. Please recall that I said this -> .... the semantics here change according to belief in synergism or monergism, free will or faith.

In this case the term 'judge' or 'judging' is at play and let me show you how. When I see someone committing a crime inflicted upon another, and say so, it's simply objectively stating a fact of reality, it's not considered making an opinionated judgment. In other words, in objective language, to say I could have judged otherwise is the same as saying I could have lied.

childeye 2 · Wednesday at 12:58 PM

Bible Highlighter said:
That's not what you were saying before. You took the other passages on hypocritical judgment as some kind of "We cannot judge" type mantra, when that is not what it was saying. Generally, the types of believers who say, "We are not to judge others," don't understand the context and know that judgments were made by Christ's followers. Generally, in my experience with others on Christian forums, this is to defend the “sin and still be saved” type of belief.

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My apologies for any vague articulation on my part. I only meant that it is just when we are judged by what measure we use to judge others, and if we don't judge it is for the best, particularly for those of us who are yet carnal which we all are apart from God's grace.

Therefore, I don't look at 'sin' (any motion away from accurately reflecting God's Character) as being defensible, but rather how inevitably it must be so outside the body of Christ. Hence, in objective language, those who condemn themselves in hypocritical judgement are outside the body, where righteousness is subjective. Even so there is a transformation from carnal to spiritual mind happening in the church which is without condemnation. Sometimes we need to reprove what is correct within the body as pertains to how one acquires virtues as real phenomenon; so that as we reprove, we're acknowledging we are thankful for God's mercy and forbearance and longsuffering in view of His wisdom to pour His virtue into earthen vessels through promise.

childeye 2 · Wednesday at 1:45 PM

under grace1 said:
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart

So if a believer has an impure thought, they need to repent of it before they die or they end up in hell?

FWIW, I think Jesus is showing how the law is meant to condemn all of mankind as worthy of death. It's like The Creator can't give the creature a virtue without the creature inevitably taking it as its own in some measure of vainglory rather than sincere thankfulness. Hence, I think Jesus is showing the true standard for condemnation of the flesh NOT to occur. If I'm wrong, then it seems to me that fidelity as a positive virtue would be built upon the negative substrate of the fear of eternal fire, not the sincere love of God. And this brings forth the question, what does a true repentance look like that would lead to remission?

Humble-Servant · Friday at 4:50 AM

Bible Highlighter said:
You make it sound like there is not one correct interpretation. However, there is only one true understanding and meaning to God’s word, and God would not make it impossible or too difficult to figure it out. If such were the case, then Jesus could not hold us accountable to what He said that if we do not receive His words, they will judge us on the last day (See: John 12:48). Jesus talked about receiving the kingdom like a child. Generally, children just believe things simply, and they do not overly complicate instructions given to them. Children are also more teachable.

But it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that God would not be okay with His followers or people justifying sin.
Not only are there tons of warnings not to do that in both the Old and New Testaments, but we would not be able to trust God’s holiness and justice if He Himself allowed His people to think they can abide in sin with Him saving them. Jude warns against those who turn God’s grace into lasciviousness (i.e., to turn God’s grace into a license to sin).

Your user name is a good example. God gives grace to the humble (James 4:6). This is in context to submitting to God.

James 4:6–7 KJV

“But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

Micah 6:8
“He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?”

Walking humbly with God implies living in obedience to Him.

Not true. I have changed on 21 theological things over the years.

What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word?

What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word? Here is my list. #1. I used to believe we had to follow the Old Testament laws in addition to the New Testament laws. Until one day I discovered verses that the New Covenant began with Christ's death and...

www.christianforums.com

I was even corrected by another believe on the Christian forums on what Hebrews said.
In addition, I even went back and forth on the baptism topic. It was the full testimony of Scripture that ultimately helped me to decide in the end.

For there to be any kind of correction, one needs to show the proper interpretation and prove their case why they are correct. So far, I have never seen that done by the OSAS or sin and still be saved type believers.

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From what I gather, you're still mixing the new covenant with the old. The old sacrificial system was ended by the Lord Jesus, so salvation is no longer dependant on ones ability to keep the law or commandments.
The Lord Jesus kept the law and commandments perfectly, on behalf of Gods chosen people. God said that the smell of burnt offerings was a stench in His nostrils.

I understand the motivation of those who insist that we must the law/commandments in return for salvation, it boils down to pride, which is the sin that bought Lucifer down.
Gods people are not saved by anything we contribute to our salvation, we are saved grace,
2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

I believe that OSAS is true because God said it, you reject it because it doesn't fit into your theology, but you can't deny what God said and then claim you poses the correct interpretation or understanding.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

God promises that those whom He foreknew and predestined He has also glorified. God’s mighty acts of redemption show us that when God promises something, He always fulfills that promise. If God left salvation in the hands of men, then I would agree with you, because men are fallible and we would fall away. But thank God, salvation is in His hands and He never fails in anything.

I can't agree with your views while they contradict what God has said and promised.

Bible Highlighter · Friday at 8:47 AM

Humble-Servant said:
From what I gather, you're still mixing the new covenant with the old. The old sacrificial system was ended by the Lord Jesus, so salvation is no longer dependant on ones ability to keep the law or commandments.
The Lord Jesus kept the law and commandments perfectly, on behalf of Gods chosen people. God said that the smell of burnt offerings was a stench in His nostrils.

I understand the motivation of those who insist that we must the law/commandments in return for salvation, it boils down to pride, which is the sin that bought Lucifer down.
Gods people are not saved by anything we contribute to our salvation, we are saved grace,
2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

I believe that OSAS is true because God said it, you reject it because it doesn't fit into your theology, but you can't deny what God said and then claim you poses the correct interpretation or understanding.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
God promises that those whom He foreknew and predestined He has also glorified. God’s mighty acts of redemption show us that when God promises something, He always fulfills that promise. If God left salvation in the hands of men, then I would agree with you, because men are fallible and we would fall away. But thank God, salvation is in His hands and He never fails in anything.

I can't agree with your views while they contradict what God has said and promised.

No. OSAS is false according to the Bible.
It's turning God's grace into lasciviousness (See: Jude 1:4 KJV).

For example, OSASers or sin and still be saved salvationists love John 10 and they have many times just quote this without verse 27.

John 10:28-29

28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,

neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all;

and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

So it is true that you cannot be plucked out of his hand, but what are the conditions or the type of sheep is Jesus talking about here?

John 10:27

"My sheep hear my voice,

and I know them, and they follow me:

So Jesus is talking about sheep that obey or follow Him.
You are not following Jesus if you disobey Him.
You are not hearing His voice if you continue in grievous sin or justify it in some way.

Believers know OSAS is false deep down but they don't care because they prefer their sin.
Why else would they defend sinning on occasion or say that we all sin and nobody can help it?
However, does the sin and still be saved belief align with verses such as 1 Peter 4:1-2 KJV, Galatians 5:24 KJV, Ephesians 5:25-27 KJV, and 2 Corinthians 7:1 KJV? No, of course not. They don't believe such verses plainly like a child because it does not agree with their preferred belief to sin.

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Bible Highlighter · Friday at 9:13 AM

Humble-Servant said:
From what I gather, you're still mixing the new covenant with the old. The old sacrificial system was ended by the Lord Jesus, so salvation is no longer dependant on ones ability to keep the law or commandments.
The Lord Jesus kept the law and commandments perfectly, on behalf of Gods chosen people. God said that the smell of burnt offerings was a stench in His nostrils.

I understand the motivation of those who insist that we must the law/commandments in return for salvation, it boils down to pride, which is the sin that bought Lucifer down.
Gods people are not saved by anything we contribute to our salvation, we are saved grace,
2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

I believe that OSAS is true because God said it, you reject it because it doesn't fit into your theology, but you can't deny what God said and then claim you poses the correct interpretation or understanding.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
God promises that those whom He foreknew and predestined He has also glorified. God’s mighty acts of redemption show us that when God promises something, He always fulfills that promise. If God left salvation in the hands of men, then I would agree with you, because men are fallible and we would fall away. But thank God, salvation is in His hands and He never fails in anything.

I can't agree with your views while they contradict what God has said and promised.

What should wake you up in cold sweats in the middle of the night is Matthew 13:41-42.

Matthew 13:41-42

41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels,

and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things

that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire:

there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

The Son of Man (JESUS) will send forth his angels and gather out of HIS Kingdom all who offend and do iniquity (sin) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e., the Lake of Fire). This means that Jesus will one day in the future send forth his angels and gather of out of His Kingdom (i.e., Christ's Kingdom or house), and they will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

John 8:34-35 confirms this loosely.

34 "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,

Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever:

but the Son abideth ever."

Meaning, the servant of sin will not abide in the house of Christ or abide in Christ's Kingdom forever.
But the Son who is the source of eternal life abides forever.
Meaning, you need to abide in the Son in order to have eternal life.
1 John 5:12 says "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."
OSASers or sin and still be saved salvationists love to say that you do not have to have fellowship with Jesus to be saved, but 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life.
Only Jesus alone has immortality (See: 1 Timothy 6:16).
How can you have an assurance that you know that the Son abides in you?

1 John 2:3-4

3 "And hereby we do know that we know him,

if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not

his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. "

So the way we can know that we know Jesus is if we find we are keeping His commandments.
The person who says they know Jesus and does not keep His commands is a liar and the truth is not in them. What truth is not in them? Jesus because Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6).

If a believer knew of the OSAS or a sin and still be saved type belief in their church or from some other place before they accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior and they think God's grace is a license to sin on occasion, Jesus is going to say this to them: "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:23 KJV).

Romans 6:15-23 talks about a person being either a servant to sin vs. a servant of righteousness.
Which do you serve? Sin or righteousness?
Romans 6:16 says, "his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? "

1 John 3:8-9

8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil;

for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested,

that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;

for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,

because he is born of God."

There is no viable way this passage above works in your belief system. Some in the OSAS camp will say that it only applied to Jewish Christians at one time and it is not for Gentile believers. This just shows that they simply do not like this passage and they will do anything to cast this passage aside as not applying to them. How do you disregard or ignore this passage above? How do you ignore or disregard 2 Corinthians 7:1 KJV, 1 Peter 4:1-2 KJV, Galatians 5:24 KJV, and Ephesians 5:25-27 KJV?

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under grace1 · Friday at 10:40 AM

Bible Highlighter said:
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God."

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1John1:8

Good to read the bible as one cohesive whole

Bible Highlighter · Friday at 1:10 PM

under grace1 said:
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1John1:8

Good to read the bible as one cohesive whole

1 John 1:8 is warning of the kind of false belief to the brethren against those who are trying to seduce them (1 John 2:26). Christian scientists today deny that sin even exists. They think sin is an illusion and it is not real. I know. I had a family member I cared about deeply who believed this way. So 1 John 1:8 would be a warning to them. In short, 1 John 1:8 addresses the false belief of the gnostic and warns the brethren about this wrong belief. So 1 John 1:8 is saying if we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist whatsoever), we deceive ourselves. While OSASers and sin and still be saved type believers today believe sin exists, they are very close to believing like the gnostics who denied sin's existence because they believe that when they physically sin, Jesus does not see their sin on a spiritual level because they believe that their belief alone on the finished work of the cross pays for even their present and future sin. I have run into Christians who said that they could mow down a crowd of people randomly with a machine gun and they would be saved while doing so because it is not based on works or how you live to be saved. This has even led to men like George Sodini actually doing something similar. So 1 John 1:8 becomes an excuse to sin rather than looking at the broader context like 1 John 2:3-4 and believing it plainly. If 1 John 1:8 was true from your perspective, then 1 John 2:3-4 would simply contradict it. You cannot always be stumbling into sin (or breaking God's commands) and yet also claim that you are keeping them as a part of knowing hIm according to 1 John 2:3. The person who says they know the Lord and yet they do not keep His commands is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). Meaning, Jesus, who is the Truth is not in them. It's just that simple. But you can complicate the Scripture into a twisted pretzel if you like and justify sin if that is what you truly desire. I am sure it will not work out for you in the end if you do so until the day you die. To me, it would be pointless to even believe in Jesus by holding to such a dishonest and inconsistent view of Scripture like that. I say this not to mindlessly wound you, dear sir, but because I honestly care about your soul and right standing with the Lord Jesus Christ and the goodness He can bring into your life.

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Bible Highlighter · Friday at 2:57 PM

Humble-Servant said:
From what I gather, you're still mixing the new covenant with the old. The old sacrificial system was ended by the Lord Jesus, so salvation is no longer dependant on ones ability to keep the law or commandments.
The Lord Jesus kept the law and commandments perfectly, on behalf of Gods chosen people. God said that the smell of burnt offerings was a stench in His nostrils.

I understand the motivation of those who insist that we must the law/commandments in return for salvation, it boils down to pride, which is the sin that bought Lucifer down.
Gods people are not saved by anything we contribute to our salvation, we are saved grace,
2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

I believe that OSAS is true because God said it, you reject it because it doesn't fit into your theology, but you can't deny what God said and then claim you poses the correct interpretation or understanding.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
God promises that those whom He foreknew and predestined He has also glorified. God’s mighty acts of redemption show us that when God promises something, He always fulfills that promise. If God left salvation in the hands of men, then I would agree with you, because men are fallible and we would fall away. But thank God, salvation is in His hands and He never fails in anything.

I can't agree with your views while they contradict what God has said and promised.

There is also no mixing of covenants involved on my part.
You simply do not understand the New Covenant.

I mean no offense, but from my perspective, it appears like you just don't plainly believe verses like 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 KJV in that God has chosen you to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit, which is a call of the gospel. Meaning, it is a call after you believed the gospel message. How so? Titus 2:11-12 KJV says God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Does your version of grace teach you that? Or does your version of grace teach you can sin and still be saved? Have you turned God's grace into a lasciviousness? Jude 1:4 KJV warns against such a thing.

You also do not appear to believe the plain wording of Galatians 6:8-9 KJV that says "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not."

Meaning, you don't appear to believe that you have to sow to the Spirit to reap life everlasting. You most likely believe Jesus did it all and or other some such nonsense by a belief alone in Jesus and or the gospel message. We are told what this sowing to the Spirit is in verse 9. It is said to be "well doing," which is works. We are told not to be wearing in well doing, for we will reap if we faint not. Reap what? Life everlasting. Doing what? Sowing to the Spirit in welling doing (i.e., the work of faith or good works).

Remember, Jesus will cut off any branch and throw it into the fire if it does not produce any fruit (See: John 15:1-6 KJV). Jesus says "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." (John 15:2 KJV). The Greek words ἐν ἐμοὶ (en emoi) meaning "in me" is in the Beza 1598 Greek that underlies the KJV. The Greek words “ἐν ἐμοὶ” (“in me”) is also present in the Nestle-Aland 28 text that underlies the Modern Bibles, as well (not that I like this particular Greek text).

By your current belief: You also most likely do not believe the plain wording or meaning of 1 Timothy 5:8 KJV, where Paul says that if you do not provide for your own, even those of your own household, you have denied the faith and are worse than an infidel. Infidel is an unbeliever. An unbeliever cannot be worse than an unbeliever. Paul is saying that a believer can be worse than an unbeliever if they fail to provide for the brethren and their own household. They have denied the faith if they failed to do so. Granted, a believer can seek forgiveness of such a sin with Jesus and forsake it, but if they do these things and do not repent, they are in a state that is really really bad and unloving.

You have to re-word or change these passages to say something else that goes beyond the most normal and plain reading in order to make your belief work here.

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under grace1 · Friday at 5:21 PM

Bible Highlighter said:
1 John 1:8 is warning of the kind of false belief to the brethren against those who are trying to seduce them (1 John 2:26). Christian scientists today deny that sin even exists. They think sin is an illusion and it is not real. I know. I had a family member I cared about deeply who believed this way. So 1 John 1:8 would be a warning to them. In short, 1 John 1:8 addresses the false belief of the gnostic and warns the brethren about this wrong belief. So 1 John 1:8 is saying if we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist whatsoever), we deceive ourselves. While OSASers and sin and still be saved type believers today believe sin exists, they are very close to believing like the gnostics who denied sin's existence because they believe that when they physically sin, Jesus does not see their sin on a spiritual level because they believe that their belief alone on the finished work of the cross pays for even their present and future sin. I have run into Christians who said that they could mow down a crowd of people randomly with a machine gun and they would be saved while doing so because it is not based on works or how you live to be saved. This has even led to men like George Sodini actually doing something similar. So 1 John 1:8 becomes an excuse to sin rather than looking at the broader context like 1 John 2:3-4 and believing it plainly. If 1 John 1:8 was true from your perspective, then 1 John 2:3-4 would simply contradict it. You cannot always be stumbling into sin (or breaking God's commands) and yet also claim that you are keeping them as a part of knowing hIm according to 1 John 2:3. The person who says they know the Lord and yet they do not keep His commands is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). Meaning, Jesus, who is the Truth is not in them. It's just that simple. But you can complicate the Scripture into a twisted pretzel if you like and justify sin if that is what you truly desire. I am sure it will not work out for you in the end if you do so until the day you die. To me, it would be pointless to even believe in Jesus by holding to such a dishonest and inconsistent view of Scripture like that. I say this not to mindlessly wound you, dear sir, but because I honestly care about your soul and right standing with the Lord Jesus Christ and the goodness He can bring into your life.

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Wrong, you can try and twist the verse to mean something other than it plainly states but it is not adviseable.
Paul termed the ten commandments the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. Im sure you would believe it would be sin to go against what is written in nine of them.
Sin is written about in two different ways in the bible, as you should know

Bible Highlighter · Friday at 5:58 PM

under grace1 said:
Wrong, you can try and twist the verse to mean something other than it plainly states but it is not adviseable.
Paul termed the ten commandments the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. Im sure you would believe it would be sin to go against what is written in nine of them.
Sin is written about in two different ways in the bible, as you should know

We've already been over this before. There is no Mosaic laws as a package deal in a effect anymore. The temple veil has been torn. There are no more animal sacrifices made. Paul said he was afraid for the Galatians in that they kept days, months, and years. Meaning they were keeping holy days as if it was some kind of requirement, when it was not one. Hebrews 7:12 says the law has changed. There is no 9 out of the 10 because the 10 do not exist anymore under the Mosaic system. We keep the moral laws by loving our neighbor according to Romans 13:8-10. You also say that I am twisting 1 John 1:8, but you are not explaining how 1 John 2:3-4 or the other verses work in your belief or how that even works with your false sin and still be saved interpretation of 1 John 1:8.

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under grace1 · Friday at 9:08 PM

Bible Highlighter said:
We've already been over this before. There is no Mosaic laws as a package deal in a effect anymore. The temple veil has been torn. There are no more animal sacrifices made. Paul said he was afraid for the Galatians in that they kept days, months, and years. Meaning they were keeping holy days as if it was some kind of requirement, when it was not one. Hebrews 7:12 says the law has changed. There is no 9 out of the 10 because the 10 do not exist anymore under the Mosaic system. We keep the moral laws by loving our neighbor according to Romans 13:8-10. You also say that I am twisting 1 John 1:8, but you are not explaining how 1 John 2:3-4 or the other verses work in your belief or how that even works with your false sin and still be saved interpretation of 1 John 1:8.

....

Would you not believe it was sin to commit adultery, murder, steal, take the Lord's name in vain, covet, lie? Im sure you would. And you would believe it was sin if a person once transgressed any of those things.
Christians are not sinless in their flesh, hence1John1:8 Who has the false interpretation, I just quote the plain words of the verse, I do not have to twist it to say something other than it plainly states:
If we(John includes himself in the we) claim(present tense) to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

under grace1 · Saturday at 2:08 AM

Bible Highlighter said:
We've already been over this before. There is no Mosaic laws as a package deal in a effect anymore. The temple veil has been torn. There are no more animal sacrifices made. Paul said he was afraid for the Galatians in that they kept days, months, and years. Meaning they were keeping holy days as if it was some kind of requirement, when it was not one. Hebrews 7:12 says the law has changed. There is no 9 out of the 10 because the 10 do not exist anymore under the Mosaic system. We keep the moral laws by loving our neighbor according to Romans 13:8-10. You also say that I am twisting 1 John 1:8, but you are not explaining how 1 John 2:3-4 or the other verses work in your belief or how that even works with your false sin and still be saved interpretation of 1 John 1:8.

....

We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

You cannot understand the bible, or bring it into cohesion by simply reciting the letter, you have to understand what is being written to bring it into cohesion. That was the pharisees problem of Jesus day. Strict literal interpretation of certain scriptures whilst ignoring others.

1John3:9 is speaking of a wilfull lifestyle of sin. Unless you claim to be sinless in your flesh, if you take the verse literally you could not be saved. Do you want to be condemned?
1John2:3&4 the same.

because Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions.” Gen26:5

But did Abraham perfectly obey, is that how we should read the verse as? No! When he went to Egypt he palmed his wife off as his sister, Pharoah took her into his palace to be his wife, he showered gifts on Abraham who accepted them without telling Pharoah the truth.
A lifestyle which reflects general obedience to God, a person loves God and in their heart desires to live as he wants them to live, and this will be reflected in their life but not perfectly for no one is sinless, hence 1John1:8

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Two Aspects of Salvation (Believers Need to Be Concerned With):

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.​

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

​

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.​

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

​

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.​

Active Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

​

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.​

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.