Spiritual Israel + End times

timf said:

A question arises as to when the "church" begin.

Click to expand...

At Caesarea Philippi when Jesus said it was truth from the Father, and not man,

timf said:

Many consider that all of the promises for Israel

Click to expand...

This was the entire House of Israel, all 12 tribes, not just the Jews or Judaea. When Jesus said go first to all nations he meant of the House of Israel, reunite the original kingdom under the Kingdom/governance of the Father.

Delvianna said:

I've been going back and forth on this topic for a few years now and I'm not sure how to rectify some stuff when it comes to end-time prophecy. I'd love to hear some arguments for and against or even going in a weird direction...

1. 144,000

• 12 tribes are listed and the ones that had idolatry issues are excluded. This gives the idea that the 12 tribes listed are the purified ones essentially, so as a "whole" status.
• They are called first fruits (Which using the farming term, they would be the first saved/protected during the trib before the rest of the harvest comes in)

Now, it makes sense to me that the church as a group would be considered apart of the 144,000 due to:

• Us being grafted in
• Ethnicity was done away with (there is neither jew nor gentile)
• The only ones who are saved are saved through Christ
• If only ethnic Jews are considered part of the 144,000, then you're essentially saying no gentile could be a "first fruit"
• If this is only ethnic Jews, then you're saying God is going back to favor ethnicity over spiritual wholeness and Pauls analogies no longer apply
• If this is only ethnic Jews then the idea that there is a 2 class system emerges where God favors ethnic Jews over gentiles.

2. So the fact that 144,000 incorporates everyone within God's tree makes sense apart from 1 problem...

• What tribe are the gentiles apart of?

So how do you rectify the two, or cant you?

Side note:
I don't subscribe to the idea that the "church" just doesn't exist in the trib because that's essentially saying you're tossing out the entire new testament. People are going to be saved during this time period, they just might not live through it. So if the "church" represents the new covenant of people turning to Christ, then it will always be around.

Click to expand...

I had some other thoughts about this. Hope this helps.

The key about the first fruits being defiled is something that belonging to God (that being the first fruits) being assigned as belonging to someone else. As it is written, the wife belongs to the husband and and the husband belongs to the wife.

Paul mentioned being a first fruit, and spoke of "it is better if they remain as I am" (not married) so this aspect of revelation may already be fulfilled. Not the 12 apostles, but perhaps these 144000 are among the apostles that Paul mentions in his letters that are not among the 12.

If you are reading this in a futurist light then it would involve people unmarried who are dedicated to God as first fruits, possibly first born. Though Child Dedications are common nowadays, the tradition of first fruit or first born rights is not. And with being born again being more important, than who was born first initially .. not sure if that would be a sound basis for theology. . .

So not sure what the futurist version of that would look like.