Two Aspects of Salvation (Believers Need to Be Concerned With):

under grace1 said:

I asked you why sinfull passions are aroused in us by the law and you respond with the above?
Paul told us the commandment not to covet aroused sinfull passions in him!

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Why? Because he was under the Old Mosaic Law. Paul was referring to his past experience in the present tense.

under grace1 said:

And the old law as you put it could faultlessly be obeyed, so not much sinfull passions had to be stirred in anyone concerning that law did it.

Im afraid you are way off in understanding:
The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

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The Mosaic Law and not the New Covenant instructions or commands as a part of the faith in Jesus Christ.

under grace1 said:

Sinfull passions are aroused in us by the law Rom7:5

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Again, Mosaic Law. Read the context.

under grace1 said:

Sin took occasion of one of the TC to arouse all manner of concupiscence in Saul. How?
Someone says to a young teenager
‘’The righteous/justified will obey the TC,

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Saul/Paul did not have Jesus yet in his life.
Ever read 1 Peter 4:1-2 in the KJV before?
How about 2 Corinthians 7:1 in the KJV?
Ever read Galatians 5:24 in the King James Bible?
See, you have to be able to reconcile and make these verses fit what the Bible says.
You cannot try and re-interpret, change, or ignore these verses to fit the belief you prefer to have.

under grace1 said:

Let us suppose the young teenager is not in ignorance as to what is entailed in obeying the TC, they know no watered down version of them exists. Before them stands the tenth commandment. They must NOT lust/ dwell on any impure thought. What will go through the young teenagers mind?

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Stop. There are no more Laws of Moses. It doesn't exist anymore as a contract. The temple veil is torn. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. Do you understand what that means? What do you think Hebrews 7:12 says? How would you understand the Law changing?

under grace1 said:

‘’I must not dwell on any impure thought, if I do it shows I Am not justified before God and will end up in hell’’

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Right, and you can do that. You don't have to struggle to keep God's good ways. Full surrender and following what His word specifically says in the Greek and the KJV will help you to do that. If you don't want to do that, then that is on you. Even unbelievers can overcome certain sins with various programs, but it is not the same when God helps you to be healed of a sin.

under grace1 said:

Im sure the young man would be petrified of such thoughts, what could you fear more, as a believer than being cast into hell for eternity?

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You would think, right? But it is a lack of belief in what Jesus said that would probably make them not care. Like you, and many other believers, you don't believe Jesus' warning about how you can be cast bodily into hellfire for lusting after a woman in your heart (Even though Jesus clearly said that).

under grace1 said:

Can you escape thinking of what you fear, or, will thoughts of what you fear consume you? Speaking for myself, when I was young, the more I feared something, the more wild imaginations went through my mind concerning what I feared, and so, concerning the young teenager:

‘’I don’t want to go to hell, I must not dwell on any impure thought, I must not’’

What will be the result? Well it shouldn‘t take much discernment to know. But Paul can explain it. In Rom7:7-11 he is speaking of the time the law came to him, as a thirteen year old, for that is when a young Jewish lad made a personal commitment to God:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence/sexual desire/passions. For without the law sin was dead. Rom7:7&8

Hence, Righteousness of obeying the ten commandments held him captive to the law of sin and death.
Hence:
Sinfull passions are aroused in us by the law

Hence:

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law/righteousness of obeying the law but under grace/righteousness of faith in Christ Rom6:14

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We are not under the Mosaic Law.
The Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12 KJV).




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childeye 2 said:

If we look at the context, John 7:24 is saying the Pharisees are not judging righteously; it's not meant to be understood as Jesus is giving me permission to judge others so long as I'm not a hypocrite.

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It plainly says you can judge righteously. If you don’t believe that verse, that is on you.



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under grace1 said:

So thou shalt not covet is part of the old law and is no longer applicable?
You are so far from understanding Paul's message. The last time we chatted you told me 2Cor3:6-9 did not refer to the ten commandments

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No. You're not getting it.
Thou shalt not covet is fulfilled by loving your neighbor according to Romans 13:8-10 KJV.
That is the new way. It's not a part of some 10 anymore.
The Law of Moses is no more as a contract.

2 Corinthians 3:6-9 is talking about how each of those respective covenants came about.
One came about by the written Law (i.e., the Mosaic Law) with the tablets of the Ten Commandments and the Torah.
The other came about through the words of Jesus and His followers.



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Humble-Servant said:

Nothing you said is verifiable by the bible. All you did was express your interpretation of what the bible says. While you may agree with yourself, you should take into consideration the fact that there are many different interpretations. It very arrogant to of you to suggest that your interpretation is the only correct one.

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You make it sound like there is not one correct interpretation. However, there is only one true understanding and meaning to God’s word, and God would not make it impossible or too difficult to figure it out. If such were the case, then Jesus could not hold us accountable to what He said that if we do not receive His words, they will judge us on the last day (See: John 12:48). Jesus talked about receiving the kingdom like a child. Generally, children just believe things simply, and they do not overly complicate instructions given to them. Children are also more teachable.

But it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that God would not be okay with His followers or people justifying sin.
Not only are there tons of warnings not to do that in both the Old and New Testaments, but we would not be able to trust God’s holiness and justice if He Himself allowed His people to think they can abide in sin with Him saving them. Jude warns against those who turn God’s grace into lasciviousness (i.e., to turn God’s grace into a license to sin).

Your user name is a good example. God gives grace to the humble (James 4:6). This is in context to submitting to God.

James 4:6–7 KJV

“But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

Micah 6:8
“He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?”


Walking humbly with God implies living in obedience to Him.

Humble-Servant said:

I don't believe that you're willing to discuss bible doctrines, it's evident that you have closed your mind to the possibility that you may be dead wrong.

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Not true. I have changed on 21 theological things over the years.


I was even corrected by another believe on the Christian forums on what Hebrews said.
In addition, I even went back and forth on the baptism topic. It was the full testimony of Scripture that ultimately helped me to decide in the end.

Humble-Servant said:

If you're willing to be corrected and instructed, then we may have a discussion but if you're only motivation is to push your doctrines, then it will be a waste of time.

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For there to be any kind of correction, one needs to show the proper interpretation and prove their case why they are correct. So far, I have never seen that done by the OSAS or sin and still be saved type believers.



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childeye 2 said:

Look at the context; apparently the Pharisees were judging by appearances. I don't want to judge like a pharisee.

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The previous words "Judge not according to the appearance" does not change Jesus' words that say, "but judge righteous judgment."

John 7:24 KJV
"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

It still means that you can judge righteously.


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under grace1 said:

And BTW
Do we then make void the law by faith? God forbid: Yea, we establish the law Rom3:31
Which law?

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This is talking about the righteousness of the Law. This is the aspect or part of the Law (i.e., the Moral Law like love your neighbor, do not covet, do not steal, do not murder, etc.) that has carried over into the New Covenant.

1. Moral Laws (Any Law pertaining to doing good as a part of nature).
2. Ceremonial Laws (Laws pertaining to ceremonies or rituals).
3. Civil Laws (Laws dealing with civil matters; Which includes Laws on carrying out justice).

God's moral laws came into existence for man and would forever exist for him after the Fall of Adam and Eve (after they received the knowledge of good and evil). A Moral Law is any law telling you to do good without a specific law telling you that such a thing is so (See Romans 2:14). These moral laws existed before the Law of Moses.

In the New Covenant (or New Testament) these Moral Laws (like: “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” Do not covet,” “Do not commit adultery,” etc.) are repeated from out of the 613 laws within the Law of Moses and they still are in effect (i.e. They have been carried over into the New Testament). However, the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole or package deal is no more (contractually speaking). Ceremonial Laws or commands: Things like the commands on circumcision, animal sacrifices, the Saturday Sabbath, dietary etc. are no longer binding under the New Covenant. This is because the written Law given to Israel is no longer in effect (as a whole). How so?

Here are a list of verses (showing us the Old Law is no more):

“In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.” (Hebrews 8:13).

”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).

“Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;” (Ephesians 2:15)

“For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.” (Hebrews 7:18).

9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).

16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).

”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).

27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).

50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).

8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).

7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).


The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.
This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17).

Furthermore, here are some references showing the differences between the Old Covenant Law vs. the New Covenant Law.

https://www.christianforums.com/media/ot-law-vs-nt-laws.62709/full

In conclusion:

Speaking generally of the two major covenants (The Old Testament, & The New Testament): You sort of have to look at the Old Covenant (Old Testament) as one contract, and the New Covenant (New Testament) as another contract. It's kind of like a contract when you buy a house. If you did not like certain things in the contract, you could ask them to make some changes in the contract. If they agreed to the changes, you would then go by the new contract, and the old contract for the house would be discarded. There may be some similar things between the old contract, and the new contract, but you stick with the new contract in your dealing with buying the house. Meaning: This is why we seek to follow the New Covenant (New Testament) primarily even though there are certain laws that have carried over from the Old Covenant (Old Testament). We are clearly not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal. We follow the commands that come from Jesus and His followers.

Side Note:

Granted, Paul says the Law is good if one uses it lawfully. This means there are some aspects of it that are good that can be applied to our lives (like if one wants to put God’s words on their doorposts if they want). But the point is that we are not bound by the Old Law overall (except for the Moral Law that has carried over into the New Covenant) Now, that said, there are a few OT Laws that do apply that are not mentioned in the NT like God forbidding tattoos and bestiality, etcetera.





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under grace1 said:

Really? So if someone lusts after another they will only be convicted of sin according to not loving as they should?
So if a person steals, they are not convicted of sin because they stole, but only convicted of sin in regard to not loving as they should?
You change your views like the weather.
At one time you insisted the believer must obey 1050 new testement commands
What will you believe next week?

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I always believed that a believer can potentially die in a lustful thought and go to hell for that sin because that is what Jesus plainly teaches. Not sure why you think that what I said changes that. Now, that said, I believe we can confess and forsake such a sin and be okay with the Lord. But the idea that a believer will never overcome their sin is an assumption upon Scripture you have to make.
Also, not all commands are tied to punishment in hell or condemnation by God in some way.
Granted, we should strive to obey God in everything that He has given to us in His word.
I am also open to the idea that is not exactly 1050. That was one proposed list of commands by another believer.
I actually, have come up with my own list of commands from the pages of the New Testament.



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under grace1 said:

So thou shalt not covet is part of the old law and is no longer applicable?
You are so far from understanding Paul's message. The last time we chatted you told me 2Cor3:6-9 did not refer to the ten commandments

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No. You are misunderstanding me. The command that says, "do not covet" still applies but it works under the umbrella of "loving your neighbor" according to Romans 13:8-10. The "do not covet" command does not work under the framework of the 10 commandments anymore because that model does not exist because the temple veil was torn from top to bottom.



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childeye 2 said:

Let me say it this way. I agree a person can make a righteous judgment 'IF' they see clearly and subsequently are not blinded by something. With that said, in John 7:24 I cannot infer Jesus is commanding me to go and judge others. Out of love for another I might be compelled to confide with a person to express concerns about their condition. Some may misconstrue my actions as judging. I think the semantics here change according to belief in synergism or monergism, free will or faith. In monergism, "faith" is a gift given; in synergism, it is a choice made.

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You cannot claim that Hitler was wrong for exterminating the Jews?
You cannot claim that a child abused by another and testified to the man who did it with irrefutable proof (like video footage) for the court to have, is not wrong or evil?
Was not Judas wrong for betraying Jesus? Can you not judge that? If so, that doesn't make any sense.
You would have to turn a blind eye to all immoral things in this life and just act like no evil exists for you to recognize or to affect you in any way. Don't certain crimes upset you in this life? Even silent judging is still judging. Did Paul not correct various churches? Did he not say to follow his example as Christ is his example? Are you new to reading the Bible?



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under grace1 said:

Nine of the ten commandments got transferred from an external to internal law. Love God and love your neighbour covers them, but they do not cease to individually exist. If they did, you could only be conscious of sin in regard to not loving as you should, which is no ones reality

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Uh, but before you were not saying that. You were saying that it was one of the 10 commandments. There is no such thing as the 10 commandments anymore. They do not exist as a unit because the Saturday Sabbath is no longer a binding command, and as you said, God's laws are written on the hearts of his people in the New Covenant. However, this is not the case for the sin and still be saved Salvationist or the OSAS believer because they turn God's grace into lasciviousness. Meaning, they do not believe God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and to live righteously as Scripture says. Most Christians in the United States believe Christ did it all and you are to just believe in the finished work of the cross. This is even at the expense of how they live. Meaning, they pick and choose to believe in what verses they want to believe.



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