Large areas of agreement do exist between Bible Sabbath keeping groups and Sunday groups

BobRyan · Tuesday at 2:46 PM

BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate do still share some points in common:

1. If a church posted on its sign "IT IS NOT A SIN TO BREAK THE TEN COMMANDMENTS" a lot of Christian members of that church would complain and it would not matter if the church was keeping Sunday or the Bible Sabbath as given to Adam.

2. A lot of children in both Sunday School classes and Sabbath School classes are taught that breaking the Ten Commandments is a sin

3. A lot of Christians in both Sunday churches and also in the Bible Sabbath churches accept that we are saved by grace through faith and not saved by our own works. So then the Bible teaching that the "good tree" produces "good fruit" of obedience according to Christ in Matt 7 is affirmed. A person must having good fruit of obedience in Matt 7 had to have already been born again (been the good tree), to start with, to produce good fruit. producing good fruit does not turn a bad tree into a good one in Matt 7. Almost everyone can see this easy obvious teaching of Christ in Matt 7.

4. James 2 says "to break one , is to break them all" when it comes to the TEN. Many Christians today in Sunday keeping churches and (unedited) Bible Sabbath keeping Christians affirm that same point

5. "Moral law" differs from "ceremonial law" in that moral law defines what sin is and Rom 2:19-20 1 John 3:4, Rom 7:7 state that fact clearly.

You can find this in the Baptist Confession of Faith, chpt 19,the Westminster Confession of faith chpt 19, the Catholic Catechism, D.L. Moody's sermon on the Ten Commandments etc (see my signature line). Most of them admit that the TEN were given to mankind in Eden.

God's TEN affirmed according to Christ in Matt 5
God's TEN affirmed according to chapter 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith (you keep forgetting details)
God's TEN affirmed according to chapter 19 of the Westminster Confession of Faith (you keep forgetting details pointed out to you a dozen times or so)
God's TEN affirmed according to D.L. Moody's sermon on the TEN commandments
God's TEN affirmed according to the Catholic Document "Dies Domini" and "The Faith Explained"
God's TEN affirmed according to C.H. Spurgeon and R.C. Sproul

* Jer 31:31-34 says the under the NEW Covenant the LAW of God is written on the heart. Paul quotes that fact verbatim in Hebrews 8

A "few" people here and there may not agree to one or two things here, but by an large this is the view of the largest segment of Christianity.

===========

Obviously a lot of differences still exist between Sunday groups and (unchanged) Bible Sabbath groups. But the above list is a good starting point for discussion based on points of agreement.

BobRyan · Tuesday at 2:50 PM

In the cases above in the OP, the differences come in as follows
1. What exactly do you mean by Ten Commandments/
2. Did you edit modify one or more to fit your tradition
3. Did you fail to edit or modify the TEN after the cross
4. Did the Ten commandments (or at least one of them) turn into "legalism' at the cross
5. Do you define "legalism" as "keeping the Commandments without any editing after the cross?

And of course many other areas of differences as well

==== example of BOTH Sides in agreement on Sabbath details

yet it is being opposed by the few who themselves oppose BOTH sides

BobRyan said:
Westminster Confession of faith section 19

19.1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

19.2. This law, after his Fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty toward God, and the other six our duty to man.

19.3. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a Church under age, ceremonial laws

BobRyan said:
19.5. The moral law forever binds all, as well justified persons as others, to obedience to it; and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator who gave it. Neither does Christ in the gospel in any way dissolve, but much strengthen, this obligation.

19.7. Neither are the aforementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it:

===========================

BobRyan said:
the same can be shown for the Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
and for D.L. Moody's sermon on the TEN Commandments

Richard T · Tuesday at 4:06 PM

BobRyan said:
In the cases above in the OP, the differences come in as follows
1. What exactly do you mean by Ten Commandments/
2. Did you edit modify one or more to fit your tradition
3. Did you fail to edit or modify the TEN after the cross
4. Did the Ten commandments (or at least one of them) turn into "legalism' at the cross
5. Do you define "legalism" as "keeping the Commandments without any editing after the cross?

And of course many other areas of differences as well

Seems like most churches allow remarriage for about any reason.

Hentenza · Tuesday at 5:38 PM

BobRyan said:
You can find this in the Baptist Confession of Faith, the Westminster Confession of faith, the Catholic Catechism, D.L. Moody's sermon on the Ten Commandments etc (see my signature line). Most of them admit that the TEN were given to mankind in Eden.

And yet none of these rest on Saturday and do not consider resting on Sunday to be a sin like you and your church do. All of these rest on Sunday. All of these rest on the Christian sabbath. You are obviously misusing what they teach to push your legalism.

Hentenza · Tuesday at 5:53 PM

BobRyan said:
In the cases above in the OP, the differences come in as follows
1. What exactly do you mean by Ten Commandments/

The commandments given by God that now hang in the two love commandments given to the Christian by Jesus in the new covenant. Jesus is now our Christian rest.

BobRyan said:
2. Did you edit modify one or more to fit your tradition

No one “edited” or “modified” anything. That is a Strawman. Jesus ushered the new covenant. You and your church are still living in the old covenant.

BobRyan said:
3. Did you fail to edit or modify the TEN after the cross

No one “edited” or “modified” anything. That is a Strawman. Jesus nailed the Mosaic law, including the 10 commandments, to the cross which is why the Christian no longer follows the letter of the law that never justified anyone and walks in the Spirit instead.

BobRyan said:
4. Did the Ten commandments (or at least one of them) turn into "legalism' at the cross

The Mosaic law was always legal. It was meant to convict without a way to repentance. Instead the gospel of good news now leads to repentance. It is legalism to preach or teach that those that rest on Sunday instead if Saturday are sinning and in danger of perishing. Works salvation is not possible.

BobRyan said:
5. Do you define "legalism" as "keeping the Commandments without any editing after the cross?

No one “edited” or “modified” anything. That is a Strawman. You teach a works salvation which is most definitely legalism. Tell me, if I worship the Lord everyday and love the Lord with all my heart and love my neighbor but rest on Sunday without repenting for resting on Sunday and then die. Can I be saved? Yes or no answer please.

KevinT · Wednesday at 7:54 AM

I've decided that we should just rebrand the 10 commandments to the "9.5" commandments, and then we can all get along. :sorry:

BobRyan · Wednesday at 6:20 PM

BobRyan said:
KevinT said:

I've decided that we should just rebrand the 10 commandments to the "9.5" commandments, and then we can all get along.

Click to expand...

seems to be the case, some people only like the Sabbath commandment if it gets "bent a bit"

BobRyan · Wednesday at 6:28 PM

BobRyan said:
In the cases above in the OP, the difference between Sunday groups affirming the TEN vs the actual Sabbath
1. What exactly do you mean by Ten Commandments/
2. Did you edit modify one or more to fit your tradition
3. Did you fail to edit or modify the TEN after the cross
4. Did the Ten commandments (or at least one of them) turn into "legalism' at the cross
5. Do you define "legalism" as "keeping the Commandments without any editing after the cross?

And of course many other areas of differences as well

Hentenza said:
The commandments given by God that now hang in the two love commandments given to the Christian by Jesus

Sadly for your post.. Matt 22 is Jesus quoting Moses verbatim
Deut 6:5 Love God with all your heart
Lev 19:18 Love your neighbor as yourself.

Christ was quoting...

Heb 8 says Christ was "quoting Himself in the Law of Moses" because according to Heb 8 Christ is speaking the Commandments at Sinai.

This has been pointed out to you a few dozen times, but your practice of skipping the details means it "has to be posted again".

Hentenza said:
No one “edited” or “modified” anything. That is a Strawman.

My post speaks of the actual Confessions of Faith. Try to read the related quote and then quote

Hentenza said:
Jesus ushered the new covenant. You and your church are still living in the old covenant.

false accusation expected.
You did not dissappoint

Hentenza said:
No one “edited” or “modified” anything. That is a Strawman

step 1. Read the actual material referenced

Hentenza said:
. Jesus nailed the Mosaic law, including the 10 commandments, to the cross

Not according to Christ in Matt 5
Not according to chapter 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith (you keep forgetting details)
Not according to chapter 19 of the Westminster Confession of Faith (you keep forgetting details pointed out to you a dozen times or so)
Not according to D.L. Moody's sermon on the TEN commandments
Not according to the Catholic Document "Dies Domini" and "The Faith Explained"
Not according to C.H. Spurgeon and R.C. Sproul

Your practice of not reading and then forgetting the discussion almost entirely , does not help your post as much as you have imagined.

BobRyan · Wednesday at 6:38 PM

Hentenza said:
And yet none of these rest on Saturday

Yes that is the meaning behind "BOTH SIDES of the Sabbath debate" agree on certain details.

This keeps getting pointed out to you and you keep forgetting the conversation and all the details.

I don't know if this is just "your tactic" or if you simply have difficulty reading the post.

Hentenza · Wednesday at 6:53 PM

BobRyan said:
Sadly for your post.. Matt 22 is Jesus quoting Moses verbatim
Deut 6:5 Love God with all your heart
Lev 19:18 Love your neighbor as yourself.

Sure and yet Christ Himself called it a new commandment. Do you know what makes it new?

“I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another.”
‭‭John‬ ‭13‬:‭34‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 13:34 (NASB2020) - I am giving you a new commandment, | YouVersion

I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

bible.com

BobRyan said:
Christ was quoting...

Yes. Jesus said that it was a new commandment. Do you know why?

BobRyan said:
Heb 8 says Christ was "quoting Himself in the Law of Moses" because according to Heb 8 Christ is speaking the Commandments at Sinai.

Where? Make your argument.

BobRyan said:
This has been pointed out to you a few dozen times, but your practice of skipping the details means it "has to be posted again".

What has been pointed out? So far what you have pointed out I have debunked so…..try again.

BobRyan said:
My post speaks of the actual Confessions of Faith. Try to read the related quote and then quote

Non if which keep the Jewish sabbath. Has that not penetrated your head yet? You are misusing your wonder list. None of them help you.

BobRyan said:
false accusation expected.
You did not dissappoint

Nope. Fact is not an accusation.

BobRyan said:
step 1. Read the actual material referenced

No material was referenced. And you continue to post a Strawman.

BobRyan said:
Not according to Christ in Matt 5
Not according to chapter 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith (you keep forgetting details)
Not according to chapter 19 of the Westminster Confession of Faith (you keep forgetting details pointed out to you a dozen times or so)
Not according to D.L. Moody's sermon on the TEN commandments
Not according to the Catholic Document "Dies Domini" and "The Faith Explained"
Not according to C.H. Spurgeon and R.C. Sproul

None of which keep the Jewish sabbath or the Mosaic law like you do. Matthew 5 does not state that but you push your interpretation. I’ll repeated again. Open your ears. The law remains to bring unbelievers to Christ; to show the unbelievers the need for a savior. So Matt. 5 is correct.

BobRyan said:
Your practice of not reading and then forgetting the discussion almost entirely , does not help your post as much as you have imagined.

Tell you what I would love to read where you post a verse that teaches that the Christian is required to keep the Jewish sabbath and a verses that shows anyone keeping the sabbath prior to Moses. Surprise me.

Hentenza · Wednesday at 6:56 PM

BobRyan said:
Yes that is the meaning behind "BOTH SIDES of the Sabbath debate" agree on certain details.

This keeps getting pointed out to you and you keep forgetting the conversation and all the details.

I don't know if this is just "your tactic" or if you simply have difficulty reading the post.

You are the one making the nonsense claim that all of Christianity agrees with you. I’m only pointing the fact that your wonder list does not agree with you.

BobRyan · Wednesday at 7:02 PM

Hentenza said:
You are the one making the nonsense

All you need to do is follow the details in the posts instead of dropping all of them each time you post

Hentenza said:
claim that all of Christianity agrees with you.

Again you deleted every single detail in the post.

what I said is that "BOTH SIDES of the Sabbath debate" affirm certain details... that you cannot remember even though they are listed right here on this thread.

How you can keep doing that is beyond me,.

So the "BOTH sides"... not "JUST ONE Side". How is this so difficult???

your response is of the form "yes but that would be BOTH sides instead of just your one side's view of the Sabbath" , as if that is adding somehing., Do you read your own posts??

BobRyan · Wednesday at 7:10 PM

Hentenza said:
Jesus nailed the Mosaic law, including the 10 commandments,

Less antinomianism would be nice. After all the entire Christian church rejected that idea.

Not according to Christ in Matt 5
Not according to chapter 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith (you keep forgetting details)
Not according to chapter 19 of the Westminster Confession of Faith (you keep forgetting details pointed out to you a dozen times or so)
Not according to D.L. Moody's sermon on the TEN commandments
Not according to the Catholic Document "Dies Domini" and "The Faith Explained"
Not according to C.H. Spurgeon and R.C. Sproul
Not according to Paul in Rom 3:31

You seem to only use those references above as a target to be contradicted

Jams 2 says to break one of God's Commandments it to break them all

Paul affirms them in 1 Cor 6
He affirms them in Eph 6:1-2
He affirms in Rom 7

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments OF GOD"
Rom 3:31 our faith "ESTABLISHES the LAW of God"

Hentenza · Wednesday at 7:15 PM

BobRyan said:
All you need to do is follow the details in the posts instead of dropping all of them each time you post

Please post the details because I address what you post. Let’s start with that.

Hentenza · Wednesday at 7:18 PM

BobRyan said:
Not according to Christ in Matt 5
Not according to chapter 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith (you keep forgetting details)
Not according to chapter 19 of the Westminster Confession of Faith (you keep forgetting details pointed out to you a dozen times or so)
Not according to D.L. Moody's sermon on the TEN commandments
Not according to the Catholic Document "Dies Domini" and "The Faith Explained"
Not according to C.H. Spurgeon and R.C. Sproul
Not according to Paul in Rom 3:31

Let me repeat what I posted since you obviously ignored it.

None of your wonder list keep the Jewish sabbath or the Mosaic law like you do. Matthew 5 does not state that but you push your interpretation. I’ll repeated again. Open your ears. The law remains to bring unbelievers to Christ; to show the unbelievers the need for a savior. So Matt. 5 is correct.

BobRyan · 2026-02-12T10:37:04-0600

Hentenza said:
Jesus nailed the Mosaic law, including the 10 commandments,

Less antinomianism would be nice. After all the entire Christian church rejected that idea.

Not according to Christ in Matt 5
Not according to chapter 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith (you keep forgetting details)
Not according to chapter 19 of the Westminster Confession of Faith (you keep forgetting details pointed out to you a dozen times or so)
Not according to D.L. Moody's sermon on the TEN commandments
Not according to the Catholic Document "Dies Domini" and "The Faith Explained"
Not according to C.H. Spurgeon and R.C. Sproul
Not according to Paul in Rom 3:31

You seem to only use those references above as a target to be contradicted

Jams 2 says to break one of God's Commandments it to break them all

Paul affirms them in 1 Cor 6
He affirms them in Eph 6:1-2
He affirms in Rom 7

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments OF GOD"
Rom 3:31 our faith "ESTABLISHES the LAW of God"

where "The first commandment with a promise is Honor your father and mother" Eph 6:1-2

Hentenza said:
Let me repeat what I posted since you obviously ignored it.

None of your wonder list keep the Jewish sabbath

Let me repeat the OP, where we can "read" the statement that "BOTH SIDES of the Sabbath debate AGREE on certain points.

The concept of "BOTH SIDES" means that the BIble Sabbath keeping groups and those groups that DO NOT keep the Bible Sabbath agree on certain points where you CONDEMN BOTH.

Hentenza said:
or the Mosaic law like you do.

So this concept of "BOTH sides" seems to be very difficult for you to understand so far.

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective readers.

Hentenza said:
The law remains to bring unbelievers to Christ; to show the unbelievers the need for a savior

True AND FOR BELIEVERS it writes the LAW on the HEART as even the OT book of Jeremiah 31:31-34 and so also Hebrews 8

Hentenza · 2026-02-12T10:45:33-0600

BobRyan said:
Less antinomianism would be nice. After all the entire Christian church rejected that idea.

So did I so your Strawman continues.

BobRyan said:
Not according to Christ in Matt 5
Not according to chapter 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith (you keep forgetting details)
Not according to chapter 19 of the Westminster Confession of Faith (you keep forgetting details pointed out to you a dozen times or so)
Not according to D.L. Moody's sermon on the TEN commandments
Not according to the Catholic Document "Dies Domini" and "The Faith Explained"
Not according to C.H. Spurgeon and R.C. Sproul
Not according to Paul in Rom 3:31

See my previous post. Already answered. Why don’t you surprise me and actually engage my post.

BobRyan said:
You seem to only use those references above as a target to be contradicted

Jams 2 says to break one of God's Commandments it to break them all

Paul affirms them in 1 Cor 6
He affirms them in Eph 6:1-2
He affirms in Rom 7

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments OF GOD"
Rom 3:31 our faith "ESTABLISHES the LAW of God"

where "The first commandment with a promise is Honor your father and mother" Eph 6:1-2

Let me repeat the OP, where we can "read" the statement that "BOTH SIDES of the Sabbath debate AGREE on certain points.

The concept of "BOTH SIDES" means that the BIble Sabbath keeping groups and those groups that DO NOT keep the Bible Sabbath agree on certain points where you CONDEMN BOTH.

So this concept of "BOTH sides" seems to be very difficult for you to understand so far.

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective readers.

True AND FOR BELIEVERS it writes the LAW on the HEART as even the OT book of Jeremiah 31:31-34 and so also Hebrews 8

Already answered in my previous posts. Again, surprise me by actually engaging my posts.

I have a challenge for you. Why don’t you join this conversation?

Two requests for the Sabbaterians at CF

Let me preface my post by stating the words of Paul. “Therefore, no one is to act as your judge in regard to food and drink, or in respect to a festival or a new moon, or a Sabbath day— things which are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.” ‭‭Colossians‬...

www.christianforums.com

BobRyan · 2026-02-13T11:08:08-0600

Hentenza said:
Jesus nailed the Mosaic law, including the 10 commandments,

Less antinomianism would be nice. After all the entire Christian church rejected that idea.

but in reference to your bogus claim above:
Not according to Christ in Matt 5
Not according to chapter 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith (you keep forgetting details)
Not according to chapter 19 of the Westminster Confession of Faith (you keep forgetting details pointed out to you a dozen times or so)
Not according to D.L. Moody's sermon on the TEN commandments
Not according to the Catholic Document "Dies Domini" and "The Faith Explained"
Not according to C.H. Spurgeon and R.C. Sproul
Not according to Paul in Rom 3:31

Hentenza said:
So did I so your Strawman continues.

When I quote you, it is not me making a straw man of you.. it is me "quoting you "

This is just not that confusing

Hentenza · 2026-02-13T11:11:59-0600

BobRyan said:
Less antinomianism would be nice. After all the entire Christian church rejected that idea.

but in reference to your bogus claim above:
Not according to Christ in Matt 5
Not according to chapter 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith (you keep forgetting details)
Not according to chapter 19 of the Westminster Confession of Faith (you keep forgetting details pointed out to you a dozen times or so)
Not according to D.L. Moody's sermon on the TEN commandments
Not according to the Catholic Document "Dies Domini" and "The Faith Explained"
Not according to C.H. Spurgeon and R.C. Sproul
Not according to Paul in Rom 3:31

When I quote you, it is not me making a straw man of you.. it is me "quoting you "

This is just not that confusing

You repeated your post. See my post 17.

I have a challenge for you. Why don’t you join this conversation?

Two requests for the Sabbaterians at CF

Let me preface my post by stating the words of Paul. “Therefore, no one is to act as your judge in regard to food and drink, or in respect to a festival or a new moon, or a Sabbath day— things which are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.” ‭‭Colossians‬...

www.christianforums.com

BobRyan · 2026-02-13T11:20:19-0600

All of this from post #9 above

Hentenza said:
And yet none of these rest on Saturday

BobRyan said:
Yes that is the meaning behind "BOTH SIDES of the Sabbath debate" agree on certain details.
This keeps getting pointed out to you and you keep forgetting the conversation and all the details.
I don't know if this is just "your tactic" or if you simply have difficulty reading the post.

BobRyan said:
Let me repeat the OP, where we can "read" the statement that "BOTH SIDES of the Sabbath debate AGREE on certain points.

The concept of "BOTH SIDES" means that the BIble Sabbath keeping groups and those groups that DO NOT keep the Bible Sabbath agree on certain points where you CONDEMN BOTH.

So this concept of "BOTH sides" seems to be very difficult for you to understand so far.

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective readers.

==================

Hentenza said:
Let me repeat what I posted since you obviously ignored it.

None of your wonder list keep the Jewish sabbath

Again you falter when the concept of BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate comes up.. How is that working for you?

Consider not ignoring the details and then give an answer informed by the actual points I stated above.

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Large areas of agreement do exist between Bible Sabbath keeping groups and Sunday groups

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