Who is the more a victim ? He who tried to to look like one or he that didn't ?

peter2 · Dec 28, 2025

Isn't there a competition for the status of victim ?

Do you believe, please, the answer to the questions of the title is rather Jesus or rather Judah ?

peter2 · Jan 27, 2026

At a time when censorships are undermining the progress of truth, and even though this thread has never received a response, your moderators have not intervened to lock it.
I thank you and would like to commend your open-mindedness, as I am well aware of how difficult it may be to read.
I plead guilty to impropriety, but I do not claim to be ashamed; that would be to contradict myself, and probably not christian

St_Worm2 · Feb 5, 2026

Hello Pierre (@peter2), I think that there are a number of things to discuss but, first off, I need to make sure that I know who this thread is about,

1. "Judah" - who is the head of one of the 12 Tribes of Israel (and part of the Messianic line) or,

2. "Judas" - who was one of the original 12 Apostles and also the betrayer of the Lord Jesus.

I'm assuming that it is #2, Judas, but I thought that I should ask, just to be sure.

Thanks

--David

peter2 · Feb 5, 2026

St_Worm2 said:
2. "Judas" - who was one of the original 12 Apostles and also the betrayer of the Lord Jesus.
I'm assuming that it is #2, Judas

Hello David
Your assumption is correct
You're welcome
Pierre

St_Worm2 · Monday at 3:13 PM

Hey Pierre, great, then my next question for you is this, of what or by whom do you (or perhaps others) believe that Judas was victimized?

I suppose that I should also ask, where in the Bible do we find Judas playing the "victim card"?

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David

Hentenza · Monday at 4:30 PM

Hi Pierre,

I’m not sure that I would call either Jesus nor Judas a victim. Jesus willingly gave His life for the sins of the world while Judas willfully betrayed Jesus even if he later repented. Maybe I’m missing your point. :wave:

peter2 · Monday at 8:45 PM

St_Worm2 said:
Hey Pierre, great, then my next question for you is this, of what or by whom do you (or perhaps others) believe that Judas was victimized?

Hello David,
My question is in response to some capricious remarks I have heard on several occasions, the spirit of which was to reproach Jesus for not saving Judah. The people I heard making these remarks gave me the impression that they were using this as an excuse to reject the salvation offered by Our Lord.
I suspect, subjectively, that such talk could lead one to conclude that Judas has the last word when it comes to psychological suffering, just as a suicidal person can inspire this kind of unhealthy empathy, just as the dead can inspire pity in us for having lost their lives.

In the end, I just wanted to testify that, in my opinion, there is a suffering that Jesus faces, and which is not talked about: it is this attitude of making Judas another victim, more of a victim than Jesus. I must tell you that I once came across a book that I did not open. The title of this book was: “The Gospel of Judah.”

St_Worm2 said:
I suppose that I should also ask, where in the Bible do we find Judas playing the "victim card"?

Judah does not need to play the victim card, any more than anyone else who is suicidal. Isn't their suicidal tendency enough to inspire compassion?
It is then appropriate to turn to the one who was not asked for his opinion before being crucified.

Jesus offers his life; the suicidal person offers his death.

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peter2 · Monday at 8:49 PM

Hentenza said:
Hi Pierre,

I’m not sure that I would call either Jesus nor Judas a victim. Jesus willingly gave His life for the sins of the world while Judas willfully betrayed Jesus even if he later repented. Maybe I’m missing your point.

Hello, Hentenza.

It's a subjective point.(mine)
For me, i'd say Jesus is victim of our sins

peter2 · Tuesday at 11:33 AM

Good evening all
@David,

St_Worm2 said:
Hey Pierre, great, then my next question for you is this, of what or by whom do you (or perhaps others) believe that Judas was victimized?

To give you a little more information about what you asked, David, I would say that I did a Google search right after posting my message. It seems that the Gospel of Judah is not a hoax, or if it is, it is a hoax as old as the scrolls discovered in the 1970s.

In any case, I had always thought that for this gospel to be credible in my eyes, Judah would have had to bear his cross in life, that is, by facing the gaze of the other apostles, and not by fleeing from it in death. Under these conditions, I would have accepted the relevance of this gospel.

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linux.poet · 2026-02-11T07:49:00-0600

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This thread has been moved from Testimonies to General Theology.

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St_Worm2 · 2026-02-12T06:44:08-0600

peter2 said:
To give you a little more information about what you asked, David, I would say that I did a Google search right after posting my message. It seems that the Gospel of Judah is not a hoax, or if it is, it is a hoax as old as the scrolls discovered in the 1970s.

Hello again Pierre, the Gospel of Judas, which we believe dates back to the middle of the 2nd Century (in part because one of the Early Church Fathers refers to it once), is Gnostic (and also pseudepigraphal, meaning that while it is a work that claims to be written by Judas Iscariot, it was actually written by someone else).

So, it could be considered to be a "hoax" on that basis alone, but (as always) there is more, because what it teaches stands in stark contrast with what the Bible teaches us (about Judas and Jesus), both prophetically (OT), as well as what we are taught about him and who he really was in the NT (by the Lord Jesus and the Apostles). This means that either the Gnostic "Gospel of Judas" is a hoax, or the Bible is, because both accounts cannot be correct!!

Here are a couple of short articles that may interest you concerning this:

~What is the Gospel of Judas? | GotQuestions.org

~What are the Gnostic gospels? | GotQuestions.org

It's important to remember that none of the historic Christian churches (nor the Jews) consider any of the Gnostic "gospels" to be Holy Scripture (this includes the Gospel of Judas, of course). The thing is, while we (the entirety of the Christian church, that is) spend much of our time arguing, disagreeing and bickering with one another about this point of doctrine or that one, every now and again we actually agree on something and walk together in lockstep concerning it ... as ONE church, that is

... and such is the case with the Gnostic "gospels" (as we have always agreed that they are NOT part of the Holy Scriptures).

peter2 said:
In any case, I had always thought that for this gospel to be credible in my eyes, Judah would have had to bear his cross in life, that is, by facing the gaze of the other apostles, and not by fleeing from it in death. Under these conditions, I would have accepted the relevance of this gospel.

That would be another way of arriving at the correct conclusion about the Gospel of Judas, I suppose, but it would also be highly problematic, because if you accept the Gospel of Judas (under certain "conditions", or really, under any "condition") as both true and as Holy Scripture, that would mean that you could no longer accept the Bible as such, because (again) the Bible and the Gospel of Judas do not agree with each other, and both cannot be true.

God bless you!!

--David

peter2 · 2026-02-12T10:22:25-0600

Hello David

St_Worm2 said:
Hello again Pierre, the Gospel of Judas, which we believe dates back to the middle of the 2nd Century (in part because one of the Early Church Fathers refers to it once), is Gnostic (and also pseudepigraphal, meaning that while it is a work that claims to be written by Judas Iscariot, it was actually written by someone else).

So, it could be considered to be a "hoax" on that basis alone, but (as always) there is more, because what it teaches stands in stark contrast with what the Bible teaches us (about Judas and Jesus), both prophetically (OT), as well as what we are taught about him and who he really was in the NT (by the Lord Jesus and the Apostles). This means that either the Gnostic "Gospel of Judas" is a hoax, or the Bible is, because both accounts cannot be correct!!

I meant that, in my opinion, these (which i predeedingly wrote) are the prerequisites for this gospel to be worth reading. I haven't read it, and I don't intend to.

St_Worm2 said:
It's important to remember that none of the historic Christian churches (nor the Jews) consider any of the Gnostic "gospels" to be Holy Scripture (this includes the Gospel of Judas, of course). The thing is, while we (the entirety of the Christian church, that is) spend much of our time arguing, disagreeing and bickering with one another about this point of doctrine or that one, every now and again we actually agree on something and walk together in lockstep concerning it ... as ONE church, that is ... and such is the case with the Gnostic "gospels" (as we have always agreed that they are NOT part of the Holy Scriptures).

You are informative, for me at least. And i'm glad to rejoice with you as we seem indeed to progress convergently

St_Worm2 said:
That would be another way of arriving at the correct conclusion about the Gospel of Judas, I suppose, but it would also be highly problematic, because if you accept the Gospel of Judas (under certain "conditions", or really, under any "condition") as both true and as Holy Scripture, that would mean that you could no longer accept the Bible as such, because (again) the Bible and the Gospel of Judas do not agree with each other, and both cannot be true.

Idem. i don't find relevant, nor useful to read this gospel

God bless you also
Pierre

PS Still waiting for your own interpretations on the Lk 18 18-19 thread, and on this one, if you agree

St_Worm2 · 2026-02-12T16:18:48-0600

peter2 said:
PS Still waiting for your own interpretations on the Lk 18 18-19 thread, and on this one, if you agree

Hey Pierre, apparently, we are still having communication issues, because my answers to your Luke 18:18-19 thread are already posted there (see post #7, then post #'s 11 & 13 too). I'm willing to take another shot at it if you'd like me to however, and if I do, should I go to that thread, or would you prefer me to answer you right here instead?

Thanks!!

--David
p.s. - I used to believe what others in the thread do (that this passage is concerned with the Deity of Christ), but I've come to believe otherwise, NOT because Jesus isn't God, He is, but because, in context, I don't believe that that is the point that He is attempting to make to the rich, young ruler, just FYI.

peter2 · 2026-02-12T16:42:08-0600

St_Worm2 said:
Hey Pierre, apparently, we are still having communication issues, because my answers to your Luke 18:18-19 thread are already posted there (see post #7, then post #'s 11 & 13 too). I'm willing to take another shot at it if you'd like me to however, and if I do, should I go to that thread, or would you prefer me to answer you right here instead?

I shall have a look at these posts, and ask you on this thread (Lk 18 : 18-19)

St_Worm2 said:
Thanks!!

it's up to me to thank you

St_Worm2 said:
p.s. - I used to believe what others in the thread do (that this passage is concerned with the Deity of Christ), but I've come to believe otherwise, NOT because Jesus isn't God, He is, but because, in context, I don't believe that that is the point that He is attempting to make to the rich, young ruler, just FYI.

that gives us another thing in common

St_Worm2 · 2026-02-12T17:32:39-0600

peter2 said:
that gives us another thing in common

So it seems

To be more specific, when the rich, young ruler asks the Lord how he can inherit eternal life, the Lord begins to answer his question with another question (as we are all aware). The thing is, I don't believe that the Lord intended to reveal His deity to this young ruler at that time (IOW, reveal who ~He~ really is), rather, I believe the Lord's point here was to help the ruler understand who and what ~he~ really is instead (a lost sinner without any hope of inheriting eternal life on his own and, therefore, a lost sinner in need of our merciful and gracious Savior, just like all of us are (because NONE of us can inherit eternal life by doing what the Lord Jesus did for us/on our behalf .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 5:21, IOW, we cannot save ourselves by keeping the commandments, commandments that were NEVER meant to tell us what we need to do to save ourselves, but rather, that we need the Savior, because we CANNOT save ourselves, yes?).

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - to sum up, I believe that Luke 18:19 has taken on a different meaning than the Lord meant it to have because, in large part, it has been used by folks (like Jehovah Witnesses, Unitarians and other "Christian" cults) to attack the Lord's deity in a vain attempt to prove that He is not God. So again, I believe that this idea (that the Lord Jesus is trying to get the rich, young ruler to understand who "He" really is in v19) is not supported by the context of the passage.

peter2 · 2026-02-12T18:33:27-0600

St_Worm2 said:
So it seems

So it seems very much !
i give thanks and back glory to God for this

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Who is the more a victim ? He who tried to to look like one or he that didn't ?

Did Judah die while being a victim ?

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