What happens spiritually that makes us born again?

Mark Quayle · Feb 4, 2026

Dave... said:
It was silvic faith in promise. It's simple math. Indwelling, in Christ, born again, justified. Not indwelt, not in Christ, not born again. They were given a promise of that salvation. They believed, but could not be born again, not in Christ. I keep posting Scripture, and you simply keep denying it.

You sound very much like me, here, right up until you say they (the OT saints) believed but could not be born again, nor be in Christ. By grace you are saved, through faith, and that, not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Again: You are saying that they were still 'in the flesh' as described by Romans 8, Ephesians 2 and several other places, "dead in [their] sin and trespasses", and not 'in the Spirit', not "made...alive" no? So how can they believe salvifically while still at enmity with God, and unable to please God? Are you saying that Abraham's faith did not please God? Romans 8: "7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

Dave... said:
Mark, you're missing the point. It's true, that a man indwelt with the Holy Spirit, is 'in Christ' and born again. It's also true that a man who is not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, is not in Christ, and is not born again. That's a simple formula that we all agree on. What I'm saying is that the initial faith is not from being born again. It comes from somewhere else. It may still be of God, in some generic way, but it's not from being born again. You're putting the cart before the horse to save an unbiblical system that is not taught in Scripture. OT promise, NT fulfillment of that Promise. Nobody was in Christ before Pentecost. That's where people are justified and born again, in Christ.

I'm saying that "the initial faith" is a fiction you have (or someone you agree with) invented in order to justify your position that nobody before Pentecost was indwelled nor born again.

Dave... said:
All they had in the OT was the promise.

And in that promise, they had "faith, and that, not of [them]selves...".

Dave... said:
Two things simultaneously true, one promise. The Promise of the Father. Places us in Christ, and places Christ in us. John 14:9-20...all of it, very important. Especially the last verse. Being baptized into Christ with the Holy Spirit indwelling... vs 20 "At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you."

Acts 1:4-5 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

Do you think that it's a coincidence that all those Gentile countries that the Jews were dispersed to over the years were all represented at Pentecost? Look at Acts 2:9-11. Then Peter tells of the prophecy from Joel. Some were Jews by birth, and some were proselytes. But this is God fulfilling the context that you provided for Ezekiel 36:26-27. The Gospel message, and the testimony of what happened goes back with them to those Gentile nations, even reaching the non believing Jews. Apply the context in Ezekiel Scripture that you quoted to that.

Your argument does not answer my use of Ezekiel, but to assert denial. Again, I am not saying that Pentecost is not the future fulfillment of the prophecy, and that, in spades. I'm saying the prophecy, as shown in the context, is also fulfilled in the past. 'Dual fulfillment of prophecy' is not my invention. Dual fulfillment - Wikipedia

Mark Quayle said:
I'll try to remember to get to this, below, because you do this same temporally dependent reasoning below, more explicitly. By the way, Scripture doesn't say that is why nobody had yet ascended.

Dave... said:
John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

I'm more than aware of the verse you were referencing. Repeating it does nothing for your argument. What I said is (added emphasis for clarity), "Scripture doesn't say THAT is WHY nobody had yet ascended." Your argument remains void.

Dave... said:
Hebrews 11:13, 39-40 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth....And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Mark, your understanding is extremely inconsistent according to Scripture. Indwelling equals regeneration, remember?

Where does what I say disagree with those passages (Hebrews 11:13, 39-40)? You say, "Indwelling equals regeneration." You are not wrong, there. Did I say different?

Dave... said:
Baptism places us in Christ, and there we are placed into His death (Galatians 2:20), and raised up with Him (Ephesians 2:6). No indwelling, no placed into Christ, no born again. The indwelling is the result of initial faith.

That last sentence is your invention, as I have said, and not demonstrated nor claimed in scripture. It is your addition, for the sake of your thesis. Find it in scripture and show me, without the circular argument you have depended on up til now.

Dave... said:
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Yes, I agree. Ironically, notice the monergistic nature of that verse!

Dave... said:
The way that you used some verses in Acts as proof texts that God must make a person born again for a person to believe. But as Scripture plainly shows, Lydia was a woman who feared God. She was a OT believer. According to Calvinism, that means that when she came to that OT faith, she was already born again and justified. You can't have it both ways, Mark. How did she come to an OT faith by your reasoning? To be consistent, you would need to answer that she was born again to believe in the OT. Then, how is her heart being opened in the NT to believe the Gospel relevant? According to Calvinism, she was already justified and saved. Same with Cornelius, and the Gentiles. All OT believers. And salvation came to them, when they received the placing into Christ with the Holy Spirit.

No. I showed that they do not prove your thesis—not that they prove mine. I did not try to have it both ways; I showed that either of two ways I could understand the passage showed no need for your thesis. BTW, both ways show her coming to faith by the indwelling of the Spirit. Born again from above. Born of the Spirit. Regenerated.

Dave... said:
Yes, it's an inconsistency that even you used when you quoted Lydia's heart being opened. She was already an OT believer. According to Calvinism, already indwelt, placed into Christ and born again, justified. I'll make its simple. When was Lydia saved? My answer, by promise when she came to faith in the OT, by reality, when she trusted in the Gospel as recorded in Acts and was placed into Christ by way of the Holy Spirit indwelling, the Promise of the Father.

Well, I'll give you this—you finally hold to some non-temporally-dependent consistency with that paragraph —or maybe I should say, temporal duality. But your assertion there still depends on what it does not prove. Circular argument.

"When was Lydia saved?" When she believed, by way of the Spirit's indwelling and 'Spirit-generated' faith. And not otherwise.

Dave... said:
When was she justified? Romans 3:25. She needed to be in Christ believing the Gospel to be saved. Since she was an OT true believer, she was predestined from an OT faith to a NT faith. (Romans 8:28-29). We are only elect 'in Christ'. Yet again, Calvinism puts the cart before the horse to save the system. They claim that every saved person was already in Christ from the foundations of the world. It's insane.

No, it is not what they say, unless some fringe elements, like a guy I debate with rather regularly. Demonstrate that is "what they say."

Dave... said:
How can a person be saved, born again, and not in Christ? With the Spirit you are in Christ and saved, without the Spirit you not in Christ and are not saved.

Yes, a person cannot be saved, born again, and not be placed 'in Christ'. I agree with that whole portion I highlighted and italicized, above. But I do NOT agree with your use of those statements. They do not make your case.

Dave... said:
It's the life that is a gift. What life do you have apart from Christ? You're assuming the system into it, that the life begins before a person initially believes, but that idea is hostile to Scripture.

The life is the result of the indwelling. The indwelling is always the result of believing.

Again, the notion—'initial belief'—is your invention. If you mean only the kind of belief that Satan also has, the notion is bogus for being effective in fulfilling some promise to which God is obligated.

I agree the life is the result of the indwelling. But you have not yet shown the sequence: "The indwelling is always the result of believing." You have repeatedly shown a sequence of words, but which are not of causative nor even of temporal sequence. Basically, this: "Believe and be saved", as though the command implies the ability to obey. Again, Romans 8:8 and so many other passages apply here. Those at enmity with God cannot obey nor please God, nor are they even willing to. They may even think themselves to do so by surface compliance, but they have not submitted themselves to God, except by mere emotion. They do not have it within themselves to do so in fact. That is only by the power of the Spirit of God. Look at your own constancy, if you must extract doctrine from personal experience. But Scripture agrees with what I am saying. Romans 8 and Ephesians 2 and 1 Corinthians 2 and so many other places. Your narrative does not.

Dave... said:
Because you see salvation beginning before a person comes to faith. That's your system that says that, not Scripture. The life is always the result of the indwelling. We are born again as a result of the indwelling. To fix that huge inconsistency, Calvinism places the indwelling before the initial faith. It's simply not Biblical. I've shown this.

Well, no. I see them simultaneous, but, by causative sequence: The Holy Spirit's indwelling causing the faith through which we are saved, (and that not of ourselves.) Monergism. You've not demonstrated your thesis, but only asserted it and by circular argument attempted to prove it.

Dave... said:
The life is not the initial faith. I've proven this already. The life is the ongoing faith that results from the indwelling, which places us in Christ.

I agree the life is not the initial faith. If "initial faith" is not the Spirit-given faith, it is not effective, nor part of the "order of salvation". —it is an invention.

Now I will admit to one thing that one might want to term, 'initial faith', which is the mind beginning to arrange principles and memorize words, which God uses monergistically to open the eyes and heart. That is to say, the Gospel is effective—God's word "will not return to him void". But that of itself is not the faith that saves. Until (1 Cor 2:14) the person can discern by the Spirit the things of the Spirit, they do not have salvific faith and are not yet saved. And the only way a person can discern the things of the Spirit, is by the Spirit. —Old Testament or New.

ARBITER01 · Feb 4, 2026

Mark Quayle said:
I originally intended to answer this according to what I had read you to say later, but I forgot.

Anyhow, you argued somewhere that because Christ had not yet died and been raised from the dead, that is was impossible for the Holy Spirit to indwell anyone before then. —(Or words to that effect, anyway)—

That is a temporal-only view, dependent on temporal placement, as though the Spirit depended on time in the same way we do. It is illogical to confine the metaphysical to temporal norms. That Christ died for us and is raised is the point —not when he died and was raised.

His position is an outlier,....and wrong.

An AI overview from Google:

According to Luke 1:15, John the Baptist was prophesied to be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb. This occurred when Mary, pregnant with Jesus, visited Elizabeth, causing the unborn John to "leap" in response to the presence of the Messiah.
Key Details Regarding the Event:

Significance: John’s reaction signifies his role as the forerunner, recognizing Jesus even before birth.
Prophecy Fulfillment: The angel Gabriel told Zechariah that John would be filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb.
Scriptural Context: Luke 1:41 describes that when Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and she was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Theological Interpretation: This event is often viewed as the moment John was cleansed of original sin, preparing him for his ministry.

under grace1 · Feb 6, 2026

The Holy Spirit enters your life and applicable law is written in your mind and placed on your heart, at that point you are born again for you get a saviour from sin

Dave... · Saturday at 3:32 PM

Mark Quayle said:
Mark Quayle said:
I originally intended to answer this according to what I had read you to say later, but I forgot.

Anyhow, you argued somewhere that because Christ had not yet died and been raised from the dead, that is was impossible for the Holy Spirit to indwell anyone before then. —(Or words to that effect, anyway)—

That is a temporal-only view, dependent on temporal placement, as though the Spirit depended on time in the same way we do. It is illogical to confine the metaphysical to temporal norms. That Christ died for us and is raised is the point —not when he died and was raised.

In another forum, there's a guy (Calvinistic) who keeps going on and on with a claim that we were justified at the cross—therefore, justified before we were born. Do you get my point? We were justified at the Cross; we were justified by what Christ did; but we were nevertheless "justified by faith"— not justified [temporally] before faith. I'm not going to keep harping on it—his argument is ridiculous. Yours sounded very similar to me.

Hey Mark

I've been sick with the flu. I'm just now coming out of it and only recently able to function as a human again with what faculties I have left at this age. I've got some catching up to do.

Dave

Mark Quayle · Saturday at 5:44 PM

Dave... said:
Hey Mark

I've been sick with the flu. I'm just now coming out of it and only recently able to function as a human again with what faculties I have left at this age. I've got some catching up to do.

Dave

No problem and no hurry, brother.

biblelesson · Saturday at 6:32 PM

Dave... said:
What are the spiritual mechanics of being born again?

I'll give my thoughts on this matter and we'll go from there. Just for the record, if I'm speaking of baptism, it's the spiritual baptism that I'm speaking of unless otherwise noted. I'll tell you if I mean water baptism.

If you ask someone what being born is, they're likely to respond with something like the wind blows where it wills, all from John 3, etc. But I think the Bible does give us some insight and that insight helps tremendously in interpreting Scripture over all.

When we are placed into/immersed/baptized into Christ, we receive everything at once, all the ingredients to be saved. Thus we are complete "in Him" and lacking nothing (Col. 2:10-14). This is the Church, the Body, that the placing into, or the baptism with the Holy Spirit spiritually unites us with. By receiving the indwelling as a result of our faith, we are placed into Christ, becoming one with Him. Setting aside the legality of our salvation, that is, being saved/delivered from the penalty of sin, the focus in this thread will mainly be in our being saved/delivered from the power of sin. This is the practical side of being saved and is called being born again, which not only frees us from the power of sin, but also allows us to begin to be conformed to Christ likeness (Gal. 3:2-3).

Being born again is the result of being placed into Christ.

When the Bible speaks of our being raised up with Him, or raised up in Christ, it's speaking of our being born again. When it speaks of being crucified with Christ, dying with Him, that is the necessary death that must precede being raised up with Him. When we are placed into/immersed/baptized into Christ, we're also placed into/immersed/baptized into His death, and raised up with Him, thus we are born again.

These are verses that I believe are speaking of being born again, though they do not use the typical language. These are all speking of the Spirit baptism, known as the baptism with the Holy Spirit by Jesus.

Romans 6:3-11 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Col. 2:10-14 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Gal. 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Gal. 3:2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit (baptism with the Holy Spirit) by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? ---- *(added by me)*

26-27 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized (with the Holy Spirit) into Christ have put on Christ. ---- *(added by me)*

Ephesians 2:5-6 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Being born again is simultaneous to being placed into Christ, also being placed into Jesus' death and raised up with Him.

The Bible tells us that we are saved/delivered through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe this is saved/delivered both judicially and being born again. But when the Bible speaks of being 'raised up with Him', like Ephesians 2:6, I believe that it's specifically speaking of our being born again.

Do you recognize this Scripture of speaking of being born again? Is this a metaphor, or does this really happen spiritually when we receive the Holy Spirit.

Dave

Absolutely correct according to scripture - you highlighted the correct scriptures to provide clarity of scripture.

You said, “When we are placed into/immersed/baptized into Christ, we receive everything at once, all the ingredients to be saved.” This is true, but many Christian are not experiencing the joy, power, peace and grace of God. They struggle with putting off the old man - which when we put the old man off, it takes us out of the flesh to enable us to walk in the Spirit.

The reason is the Bible tells us we walk by faith. So, although it is correct we have received everything in Christ, we must walk by faith to experience the fullness of God’s grace.

We have been given the earnest of the Spirit - a down payment,
2 Corinthians 5:5 KJV, “Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest (downpayment/firstfruits)of the Spirit.”

The above scripture relates to Romans 8:23 KJV, “And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.”

Waiting for the adoption means we have all in Jesus, but the promises are based on grace and through our faith, they are manifested.

First, and most important, this faith is ONLY the faith of Abraham - that we must grow into by the Spirit - there is no other type of faith identified in scripture.

Romans 4:18-23 KJV
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

Romans 4:24-25 KJV
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

To enter into God’s grace after receiving the earnest of the Spirit, we must exercise Abraham’s faith to experience the fullness of the promises,
Romans 5:1-2 KJV
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Access by faith is speaking of the faith that has been determined to be a righteous faith - only Abraham’s faith - then we enter into God’s grace and experience all we have received.

The power of faith - Abraham’s faith - increases is as we grow in the Spirit. No other faith compares, and we cannot possess Abraham’s faith on our own; our faith increases as we grow in the Spirit.

Here is an example, God tells King Ahaz that the nations coming against him won’t stand - God has already determined it -
Isaiah 7:7 KJV
Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.

Yet God tells King Ahaz if he does not believe, he won’t be established-
Isaiah 7:9 KJV
…If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.

God bless!

Dave... · Sunday at 3:17 PM

Mark Quayle said:
You sound very much like me, here, right up until you say they (the OT saints) believed but could not be born again, nor be in Christ. By grace you are saved, through faith, and that, not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Again: You are saying that they were still 'in the flesh' as described by Romans 8, Ephesians 2 and several other places, "dead in [their] sin and trespasses", and not 'in the Spirit', not "made...alive" no? So how can they believe salvifically while still at enmity with God, and unable to please God? Are you saying that Abraham's faith did not please God? Romans 8: "7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

Hey Mark

Grace, by definition is a gift from God. Faith can be speaking of a gift of God if it's speaking of the life, Jesus, in us, but otherwise needs to be proven with Scripture. Faith comes from hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). That could be considered grace, but not born again. Ephesians 2:5 parallels Ephesians 2:8, only there's no mention of faith in 2:5, just being saved by grace, raised up together with Him, the resurrection that makes us born again, spoken about in Romans 6:3-11, which begins the Life (Ephesians 2:6), only after the death (Galatians 2:20). Romans 5:1-2 separates our first believing with that grace, that gift of God, saying that we enter into that gift of God by faith.

In Romans 7, if we go a little further in that same chapter, Romans 7:18, Paul says that the flesh can desire to do good. That's all one needs to receive the indwelling. The rest, the life, is from the Spirit of Christ, and a gift of grace. There is nowhere in Scripture that we are told that we must have a perfect faith. In fact, the opposite. Plus, as was noted at the beginning, that five star faith doesn't look so great once we begin the process of being perfected, or matured.

The life is the grace that saves us. The two option idea doesn't apply.

Mark Quayle said:
I'm saying that "the initial faith" is a fiction you have (or someone you agree with) invented in order to justify your position that nobody before Pentecost was indwelled nor born again.

If you don't recognize this distinction, then you'll never understand what Scripture is saying. You'll be using verses speaking of the life to prove something about the faith that happens to bring us to that life, and visa versa. That's what you're doing. It's clear to me that there is a faith that brings us to that life, and there is a faith that is that life. The latter, is what Paul spoke of in Galatians 2:20, the life of Christ in him. That life, that faith, is the result of believing. I've shown you Scripture already. When we believe, we are indwelt, and then, and only then, do we have the life.

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Please read Romans 6:3-11 again. The whole thing is the result of the Spirit baptism, the placing into Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). It's a baptism by faith Galatians 3.

Mark Quayle said:
And in that promise, they had "faith, and that, not of [them]selves...".

What they are saved with, the gift of God, grace, that is what is 'not of themselves'. That's speaking of the life, which is the result of believing.

The "through faith" should be understood as separate from the train of thought, only attached to the means of the grace. Like this.

"For by grace you have been saved (through faith), and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,"

This is consistent with Scripture.

Mark Quayle said:
Your argument does not answer my use of Ezekiel, but to assert denial. Again, I am not saying that Pentecost is not the future fulfillment of the prophecy, and that, in spades. I'm saying the prophecy, as shown in the context, is also fulfilled in the past. 'Dual fulfillment of prophecy' is not my invention. Dual fulfillment - Wikipedia

A parallel passage, John 7:38-39, not only tells us what the promise is, but also that the promise was not yet fulfilled, ever. He also tells what the promise's fulfillment is waiting for, Jesus was not yet glorified.

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

I think you're confusing the idea of near and far prophecies. The prophet would have a prophecy fulfilled in the time of his declaring it, to verify a prophecy that happens later. It's not the same thing being fulfilled twice. It's a near prophecy, that verifies that the far one is legitimate. The idea that they are the same things fulfilled twice is foreign to Scripture. It may be shown in type, only to be realized later in reality. But dual fulfillment strongly suggests something that is not Biblical. It really doesn't matter because "the Holy Spirit was not yet given" settles it. Not yet fulfilled. Not until Christ is glorified.

Acts 2:33Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

Mark Quayle said:
"Scripture doesn't say THAT is WHY nobody had yet ascended." Your argument remains void.

Where does what I say disagree with those passages (Hebrews 11:13, 39-40)? You say, "Indwelling equals regeneration." You are not wrong, there. Did I say different?

John 3:5, one must be born of water and Spirit or he cannot enter the Kingdome of heaven. That's why nobody had ascended. That was waiting for....guess what?... Jesus to be lifted up, John 3:13-14. In other words, glorified, just like John 7:38-39 said, just like the placing into Christ with the Holy spirit was waiting for. OT believers listed in Hebrews 11, the greats, died having not received the promises. They were not born of water and Spirit, per John 3, that's why they had not yet ascended.

Mark Quayle said:
That last sentence is your invention, as I have said, and not demonstrated nor claimed in scripture. It is your addition, for the sake of your thesis. Find it in scripture and show me, without the circular argument you have depended on up til now.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Galatians 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Luke 11:13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

Mark Quayle said:
No. I showed that they do not prove your thesis—not that they prove mine. I did not try to have it both ways; I showed that either of two ways I could understand the passage showed no need for your thesis. BTW, both ways show her coming to faith by the indwelling of the Spirit. Born again from above. Born of the Spirit. Regenerated.

It proves that OT believers only had the promise, not the reality. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. That only happens in Him. That only happens after Christ is glorified. Just like I said. Calvinism, you know what it teaches, that there is no difference between the OT and the NT. That OT believers were saved by trusting the revelation that was available to them. That they were born again, justified, and ascended, with the Father. All of which I've shown with Scripture to be in error.

Mark Quayle said:
Well, I'll give you this—you finally hold to some non-temporally-dependent consistency with that paragraph —or maybe I should say, temporal duality. But your assertion there still depends on what it does not prove. Circular argument.

More on this later.

Mark Quayle said:
"When was Lydia saved?" When she believed, by way of the Spirit's indwelling and 'Spirit-generated' faith. And not otherwise.

You see, you're using and order. It's backwards, but you are using an order.

Mark Quayle said:
No, it is not what they say, unless some fringe elements, like a guy I debate with rather regularly. Demonstrate that is "what they say."

What does your use of the phrase "non-temporally-dependent" mean then, if not just another way of saying that God is not bound by time, and all time sensitive Scripture is meaningless, because it all already happened. Therefore, when God says the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world, they will say that He's not speaking of His eternal decree, they claim that He's telling us that it already happened. So, they reason, that man in the OT could be saved just like the NT. It just gets ridiculous.

When I was first saved, I so hungry to learn. Calvinism appeared to put a lot of the context in order nice and neat. That was huge. It was a major step in understanding. The problem Mark, is that as I learned more of the context of the Bible, I realized that Calvinism uses a lot of it's proof texts out of context. In fact, it deliberately avoids it. They created a system to do just that. Very appealing for a new Christian because a new Christian cannot see the context yet to see that it's not correct. I think what's even more offensive to the Calvinist is that even though Arminianism is mostly a theology driven by humanism, and not correct, they also may have Forest Gumped a few things right that Calvinism got wrong. Don't you think it strange, Mark, that I can probably show you an alarming amount of verses and passages in this thread that teach very simple truths very clearly, and you somehow reached the exact opposite conclusion of what it says? It's "non-temporally-dependent", or like stuff that sounds like something that's pulled out of thin air to avoid truth, rather than a theological thought that has merit as being thought out, even though it's wrong. At what point, do you step back and say 'I can't look the other way any longer?'. Do you still say things like God's decree is different from His desire? Do you still pretend verses that say God desires all men to come to faith and be saved (1 Timothy 2:4) doesn't exist? At what point do you stop, step back, and realize something isn't right. At what point do you confront the inconsistencies for the Truth? Another thing that adds to this is the fact that most of what is called Arminianism is easy to argue against, even wrongly. It puffs up the Calvinist, and feeds his ego. I know, I was there. I always questioned being born again before faith, but the rest I supported. I know the steps, because I used them myself. I'm trying to undo the damage I may have done and hopefully God will use me for something good here. I'm not saying that everything that Reformed theology teaches is wrong, but there is huge chunks of context that are ignored, like the difference in the relationship between man and the Holy Spirit from OT to NT. Completely ignored. It's scary. And all the excuses used to justify that, like "non-temporally-dependent". That's an argument I would expect from an atheist, not a Christian, but I'm hearing it more and more from todays reformed.

Mark Quayle said:
Yes, a person cannot be saved, born again, and not be placed 'in Christ'. I agree with that whole portion I highlighted and italicized, above. But I do NOT agree with your use of those statements. They do not make your case.

Again, the notion—'initial belief'—is your invention. If you mean only the kind of belief that Satan also has, the notion is bogus for being effective in fulfilling some promise to which God is obligated.

And what places a person into Christ is the indwelling. And that indwelling is the result of faith. And the life, called faith, is the result of faith, thus it is faith to faith.

Mark Quayle said:
Well, no. I see them simultaneous, but, by causative sequence: The Holy Spirit's indwelling causing the faith through which we are saved, (and that not of ourselves.) Monergism. You've not demonstrated your thesis, but only asserted it and by circular argument attempted to prove it.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Causative sequence is causative order.

Mark Quayle said:
I agree the life is not the initial faith. If "initial faith" is not the Spirit-given faith, it is not effective, nor part of the "order of salvation". —it is an invention.

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

Mark Quayle said:
Now I will admit to one thing that one might want to term, 'initial faith', which is the mind beginning to arrange principles and memorize words, which God uses monergistically to open the eyes and heart. That is to say, the Gospel is effective—God's word "will not return to him void". But that of itself is not the faith that saves. Until (1 Cor 2:14) the person can discern by the Spirit the things of the Spirit, they do not have salvific faith and are not yet saved. And the only way a person can discern the things of the Spirit, is by the Spirit. —Old Testament or New.

1 Corinthians 2:14 is speaking of the deeper truths of Scripture, not the Gospel.

These below were OT believers in the Gospel who were not yet born again, but they believed. They didn't understand the deeper truths of Scripture without being born again, but they believed. They were not yet placed into Christ, still in Adam, yet they believed.

John 16:12-13 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

15:25-26 "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Mark, this is getting a bit redundant. I've only stayed in this long mostly for those reading but not posting. It was nice talking with you, but unless there is something new to add, I think this discussion, at least between me and you has taken it's course. I believe that I've given enough Scripture to show that the traditional reformed view is incorrect, and also that there are chunks of missing Biblical context missing in their system, even if you say that I've never provided it.

I know this is going to be an uphill battle, but I also believe that there is a lot of reverse engineering going on these days. I know how easy it is to fall into that trap because I did. We are poisoned these days just like the Scribes and the pharisees were in the days that God incarnate walked the earth. I'll leave you with a thought. It was never meant to be a complicated thing. It becomes complicated when idolatry is involved. When we suppress the truth in unrighteousness and heap up for ourselves what our itching ears want to hear.

1 Corinthians 2:4, 1 Corinthians 1:17-31

Believe and be saved. It's the Gospel, it's the order I believe in, the order I preach.

God bless

Dave

Dave... · Sunday at 3:26 PM

Hey @biblelesson

Thanks for the post/input. I'll need to try to reply tomorrow. I'm spent from my last post.

Dave

Mark Quayle · Sunday at 9:56 PM

Dave... said:
Hey Mark

Grace, by definition is a gift from God. Faith can be speaking of a gift of God if it's speaking of the life, Jesus, in us, but otherwise needs to be proven with Scripture. Faith comes from hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). That could be considered grace, but not born again. Ephesians 2:5 parallels 2:8, only there's no mention of faith, just being saved by grace, raised up together with Him, the resurrection that makes us born again, spoken about in Romans 6:3-11, which begins the Life (Ephesians 2:6), only after the death (Galatians 2:20). Romans 5:1-2 separates our first believing with that grace, that gift of God, saying that we enter into that gift of God by faith.

In Romans 7, if we go a little further in that same chapter, Romans 7:18, Paul says that the flesh can desire to do good. That's all one needs to receive the indwelling. The rest, is from the Spirit of Christ, and and a gift of grace. There is nowhere in Scripture that we are told that we must have a perfect faith. In fact, the opposite. Plus, as was noted at the beginning, that five star faith doesn't look so great once we begin the process of being perfected, or matured.

The life is the grace that saves us. The two option idea doesn't apply.

If you don't recognize this distinction, then you'll never understand what Scripture is saying. You'll be using verses speaking of the life to prove something about the faith that happens to bring us to that life, and visa versa. That's what you're doing. It's clear to me that there is a faith that brings us to that life, and there is a faith that is that life. The latter, is what Paul spoke of in Galatians 2:20, the life of Christ in him. That life, that faith, is the result of believing. I've shown you Scripture already. When we believe, we are indwelt, and then, and only then, do we have the life.

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Please read Romans 6:3-11 again. The whole thing is the result of the Spirit baptism, the placing into Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). It's a baptism by faith Galatians 3.

What they are saved with, the gift of God, grace, that is what is not of themselves. That's speaking of the life, which is the result of believing.

The "through faith" should be understood as separate from the train of thought, only attached to the means of the grace. Like this.

"For by grace you have been saved (through faith), and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,"

This is consistent with Scripture.

A parallel passage, John 7:38-39, not only tells us what the promise is, but also that the promise was not yet fulfilled, ever. He also tells what the promise's fulfillment is waiting for, Jesus was not yet glorified.

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

I think you're confusing the idea of near and far prophecies. The prophet would have a prophecy fulfilled in the time of his declaring it, to verify a prophecy that happens later. It's not the same thing being fulfilled twice. It's a near prophecy, that verifies that the far one is legitimate. The idea that they are the same things fulfilled twice is foreign to Scripture. It may be shown in type, only to be realized later in reality. But dual fulfillment strongly suggests something that is not Biblical. It really doesn't matter because "the Holy Spirit was not yet given" settles it. Not yet fulfilled. Not until Christ is glorified.

Acts 2:33Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

John 3:5, one must be born of water and Spirit or he cannot enter the Kingdome of heaven. That's why nobody had ascended. That was waiting for....guess what?... Jesus to be lifted up, John 3:13-14. In other words, glorified, just like John 7:38-39 said, just like the placing into Christ with the Holy spirit was waiting for. OT believers listed in Hebrews 11, the greats, died having not received the promises. They were not born of water and Spirit, per John 3, that's why they had not yet ascended.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Galatians 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Luke 11:13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

It proves that OT believers only had the promise, not the reality. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. That only happens in Him. That only happens after Christ is glorified. Just like I said. Calvinism, you know what it teaches, that there is no difference between the OT and the NT. That OT believers were saved by trusting the revelation that was available to them. That they were born again, justified, and ascended, with the Father. All of which I've shown with Scripture to be in error.

More on this later.

You see, you're using and order. It's backwards, but you are using an order.

What does your use of the phrase "non-temporally-dependent" mean then, if not just another way of saying that God is not bound by time, and all time sensitive Scripture is meaningless, because it all already happened. Therefore, when God says the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world, they will say that He's not speaking of His eternal decree, they claim that He's telling us that it already happened. So, they reason, that man in the OT could be saved just like the NT. It just get ridiculous.

When I was first saved, I so hungry to learn. Calvinism appeared to put a lot of the context in order nice and neat. That was huge. It was a major step in understanding. The problem Mark, is that as I learned more of the context of the Bible, I realized that Calvinism uses a lot of it's proof texts out of context. In fact, it deliberately avoids it. They created a system to do just that. Very appealing for a new Christian because a new Christian cannot see it yet. I think what is even more offensive to the Calvinist is that even though Arminianism is mostly a theology driven by humanism, and not correct, they also may have Forest Gumped a few things right that Calvinism got wrong. Don't you think it strange, Mark, that I can probably show you an alarming amount of verses and passages that teach very simple truths very clearly, and you somehow reached the exact opposite conclusion of what it says? It's "non-temporally-dependent", or like stuff that sounds like something that's pulled out of thin air to avoid truth, rather than a theological thought that has merit as being thought out, even though it's wrong. At what point, do you step back and say 'I can't look the other way any longer?'. Do you still say things like God's decree is different from His desire? Do you still pretend verses that say God desires all men to come to faith and be saved (1 Timothy 2:4) doesn't exist? At what point do you stop, step back, and realize something isn't right. At what point do you confront the inconsistencies for the Truth? Another thing that adds to this is the fact that most of what is called Arminianism is easy to argue against, even wrongly. It puffs up the Calvinist, and feeds his ego. I know, I was there. I always questioned being born again before faith, but the rest I supported. I know the steps, because I used them myself. I'm trying to undo the damage I may have done and hopefully God will use me for something good here. I'm not saying that everything that Reformed theology teaches is wrong, but there is huge chunks of context that are ignored, like the difference in the relationship between man and the Holy Spirit from OT to NT. Completely ignored. It's scary. And all the excuses used to justify that, like "non-temporally-dependent". That's an argument i would expect from an atheist, not a Christian, but I'm hearing it more and more from todays reformed.

And what places a person into Christ is the indwelling. And that indwelling is the result of faith. And the life, called faith, is the result of faith, thus it is faith to faith.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Causative sequence is causative order.

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

1 Corinthians are the deeper truths of Scripture, not the Gospel.

These below were OT believers in the Gospel who were not yet born again, but they believed. They didn't understand the deeper truths of Scripture without being born again, but they believed. They were not yet placed into Christ, still in Adam, yet they believed.

John 16:12-13 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

15:25-26 "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Mark, this is getting a bit redundant. I've only stayed in this long mostly for those reading but not posting. It was nice talking with you, but unless there is something new to add, I think this discussion, at least between me and you has taken it's course. I believe that I've given enough Scripture to show that the traditional reformed view is incorrect, and also that there are chunks of missing Biblical context missing in their system, even if you say that I've never provided it.

I know this is going to be an uphill battle, but I also believe that there is a lot of reverse engineering going on these days. I know how easy it is to fall into that trap because I did. We are poisoned these days just like the Scribes and the pharisees were in the days that God incarnate walked the earth. I'll leave you with a thought. It was never meant to be a complicated thing. It becomes complicated when idolatry is involved. When we suppress the truth in unrighteousness and heap up for ourselves what our itching ears want to hear.

1 Corinthians 2:4, 1 Corinthians 1:17-31

Believe and be saved. It's the Gospel, it's the order I believe in, the order I preach.

God bless

Dave

For what it is worth, brother, I can see your heart. I see myself there.

The order of, "Believe and be saved", is not, "Believe in order to become saved". Some people simply find that they do believe, apart from any "salvation decision" they have made. That is Grace, a work by God alone, and it implies a logical (causal) sequence. God is the first mover, and only he can produce that ability to believe inside the erstwhile spiritually DEAD, and at enmity with God. All else that follows is caused effect, result. That we are rolled up into it does not imply that we caused any part of our salvation. "We do so because it is so." "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do according to his good pleasure." "We love him because he first love us" may well be talking about more than us being motivated to love him back. It may well mean that the nature and deeds of his love have CAUSED us to love him. John 3:16: "For God loved the world thus: That anyone believing in him would not perish, but would have eternal life."

Understand that I did not even know that what I came to believe over the course of 40+ years was called Calvinistic. I was not indoctrinated in it. It did not color my thinking. (I'm 70 now, and still learning. I've been a monergist probably 25 years, but didn't know it was called monergism until maybe 15 years ago. I was brought up in continuous Bible teaching and believed from before I can remember, but my training was everything but Calvinistic. The Bible is what convinced me of what I believe now.) But the simple logic of God being God, lined everything else up logically. The many references you bring to bear are simply read, and that does you credit, but you are the one who will be measured by your standard. I agree there is a lot of reverse engineering, but it may not be where you think it is: Logical sequence is not the same thing as language sequence, nor even temporal sequence. I don't know how familiar you are with language and the huge variety of ways of thinking of even modern people-groups, nevermind the thinking of ancient Greco-Roman-Aramaic Hebrews 2000 years ago. I'm sorry, but the English translations just do not accurately translate everything intended by the ancient Hebrew and Koiné writings. Even concepts as simple as Past, Present and Future, are not in the thinking of the speakers and writers of Bible languages what they are in English.

My ears itch no more than anyone else's, unless to hear more about Christ and to understand who God is and what he has done. I take context very seriously—the whole of the counsel of God, in fact. I 'proof-text' no more than anyone else, here; but there is no room for full exposition.

What I believe by no means excuses anyone, nor does it relinquish anyone from the responsibility of obedience. In fact, to my mind it demands more, and rests upon the mercy of God.

"There are none righteous; no, not one" has a 6,000 year history of evidence. We are unable to approach God by our own ability. The Old Testament believers are witnesses to this. God must change a person, from death to life, in order to have valid faith. "And that, not of yourselves..."

biblelesson · Sunday at 10:38 PM

Mark Quayle said:
You sound very much like me, here, right up until you say they (the OT saints) believed but could not be born again, nor be in Christ. By grace you are saved, through faith, and that, not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Again: You are saying that they were still 'in the flesh' as described by Romans 8, Ephesians 2 and several other places, "dead in [their] sin and trespasses", and not 'in the Spirit', not "made...alive" no? So how can they believe salvifically while still at enmity with God, and unable to please God? Are you saying that Abraham's faith did not please God? Romans 8: "7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

It’s impossible for the Old Testament saints to be born again and could not be in Christ.

Christ had to die before anyone could be saved - salvation is through Jesus death on the cross and His resurrection unto life - born again in Christ Jesus.

However, the law of Moses protected the Old Testament saints from condemnation, but they could not be raised from the dead until the death of Christ as they were still in the flesh, and could not have received salvation unto life by the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, because the Spirit of life in Christ was only given after He died for the sins of man, not before. So, those Old Testament saints who died under the law had to wait for Christ death and resurrection to be released from Abraham’s bosom - which happened when the graves opened at Christ’s crucifix, after He rose from the dead.

You said, “So how can they believe salvifically while still at enmity with God?”

They were not at enmity with God - animal sacrifice and the shedding of blood placed them in a position of righteousness before God, and all the laws, holy days, sabbath days, cleanliness laws were kept, which were temporary until the faith required for salvation came - faith in Christ Jesus’s death and resurrection for our salvation. Because they were already protected, and because the laws they were under pointed to or even represented Christ, their salvation was sure. You can’t have an Old Testament and New Testament operating at the same time, so those who died keeping the law under the Old Testament were raised at the time of Jesus resurrected - as Jesus was ending the old and bringing in the new.

Galatians 3:23 KJV
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Galatians 3:22 KJV
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

In regards to the initial faith that brings a person to believe on Christ: The Bible let’s us know we must hear the word before we believe,
Ephesians 1:13 KJV
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Dave... · Monday at 1:00 PM

biblelesson said:
First, and most important, this faith is ONLY the faith of Abraham - that we must grow into by the Spirit - there is no other type of faith identified in scripture....

Access by faith is speaking of the faith that has been determined to be a righteous faith - only Abraham’s faith - then we enter into God’s grace and experience all we have received.

The power of faith - Abraham’s faith - increases is as we grow in the Spirit. No other faith compares, and we cannot possess Abraham’s faith on our own; our faith increases as we grow in the Spirit.

Hey B

I think you lost me here. Are you saying that we need a faith like Abrahams faith, meaning genuine, or that we need Abrahams actual faith? Can you elaborate?

Abraham was declared righteous by faith because of what Jesus did, right? The righteousness [of God] imputed to us by faith that Abraham was credited with is the opposite of righteousness by the Law. It's imputed to us when we are placed into Christ. Abraham had to wait, but it was credited to him. Agree?

Dave

biblelesson · Monday at 5:54 PM

Dave... said:
Hey B

I think you lost me here. Are you saying that we need a faith like Abrahams faith, meaning genuine, or that we need Abrahams actual faith? Can you elaborate?

Abraham was declared righteous by faith because of what Jesus did, right? The righteousness [of God] imputed to us by faith that Abraham was credited with is the opposite of righteousness by the Law. It's imputed to us when we are placed into Christ. Abraham had to wait, but it was credited to him. Agree?

Dave

I hope I can provide some preliminaries before I explain what I meant:

God established His salvation plan through certain people. First through Abraham, then Isaac, then Jacob - the child and grandchild who through the seed of Abraham the promised seed would come - Jesus!

So, what God did first was established the type of faith that would be required that would deem a person righteous, and God determined Abraham had that type of faith, so God established grace through faith, without the law, based on Abraham’s faith, to assure the promise - that is we must posses the faith of Abraham, that is a faith that is identical to Abraham’s faith. Look at this scripture,
Romans 4:16 KJV
“Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,”

This faith (Abraham’s faith) makes the promise sure, because righteousness was established on it.

What God did through Issac and Ishmael was to separate the two covenants to remove the requirements of the law, and permit grace, that is, salvation through faith, without the law: Ishmael being of the law - of the flesh, Issac being of promise, again to assure the promise. Look at this scripture,
Galatians 4:22-26 KJV
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh;
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. This is the son born of the promise, Issac, whose son received the election, Jacob.

God then established Election in Jacob, that election might stand, to make it sure based on God’s calling: before the two children were born - Esau being of the flesh would not receive the promise, Jacob being of faith who did receive the promise. Look at this scripture,
Romans 9:10-13 KJV
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

You asked, “Abraham was declared righteous by faith because of what Jesus did, right?”

So, no, but because Abraham’s faith was the type of faith pleasing to God, God made his faith as the basis for righteousness - to where no law was needed. That way the Gentiles could also be saved in Christ if they have, what is call, “the faith,” which is referring to Abraham’s faith, righteousness could then be imputed on them also. “The faith” is required for all, even the Jews.

Under the new covenant we live by faith in all aspects of our Christian life - when Apostle Paul say we live by faith, he is speaking of “the faith.” - the faith of Abraham - meaning our faith must match that of Abraham’s. See these scripture,

HERE EXPLAINS HOW GRACE IS ESTABLISHED FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL

Romans 4:16 KJV
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed (we are made the seed of Abraham through Christ); not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

THE FAITH ESTABLISHED IN ABRAHAM GIVES US ACCESS TO GOD’S GRACE - OUR FAITH MUST MATCH THIS FAITH

Romans 4:17-18 KJV
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

Romans 4:20-22 KJV
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

With being of “the faith, we can enter into God’s grace. Some of us don’t fully understand and are not able to receive all of God’s blessings and promises because they lack this understanding about “the faith” of Abraham. The Bible tells us that without faith it’s impossible to please God, this is because God Has already established “faith” in Abraham, and if our faith don’t match that of Abraham, we can’t please God.

“The faith” is a PARTICULAR FAITH (Abraham Faith) - that salvation; grace; righteous is established on, mentioned several times by the Apostles:

Acts 6:7 KJV
And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Acts 13:8 KJV
But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.

Acts 14:22 KJV
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 1:5 KJV
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

An example of a grave mistake that harms Christians is when it is preached we can have little faith like the mustard seed has. But, the mustard seed being very small had great faith, the little tiny seed believed the impossible - That it could be a great magnificent tree more that 2000 times its weight. The mustard seed was small, not its faith.

This is Abraham’s faith, and our faith must match his faith, called “the faith.”
We are not capable of this faith. But God requires it, and has made it possible for us,
Romans 10:17 KJV
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

In regards to your question, “The righteousness [of God] imputed to us by faith that Abraham was credited with is the opposite of righteousness by the Law. It's imputed to us when we are placed into Christ. Abraham had to wait, but it was credited to him. Agree?

No, not really, as long as Israel kept all the laws, holy days, feasts, cleanliness laws, their adherence to the law was credited to them as righteousness, which is the same righteousness sealed in Abraham - remember Israel was Abraham’s seed in the flesh. But, they could not keep the law and the law cursed them. Although the Gentiles were not part of Israel, the law that condemned Israel also condemned them and they had no way of salvation - now two problems, Israel could no longer be counted as righteous, and the Gentiles could not be counted as righteous. God would now save both,
Romans 11:32-33 KJV
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
 God's judgments are unsearchable
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

So, with Abraham, who received the promise before the law, it was Abraham’s faith that God imputed righteous upon so that the Gentiles could also be saved. If our faith is that of Abraham’s faith, righteousness is then imputed on us, without the law. We are then credited with the same righteousness because it’s Abraham’s faith God ordained righteous and placed a seal on it, which was circumcision. So, even before the law, God sealed Abraham with righteousness for the sake of saving the Gentiles and the Jews who later broke the law. Grace was established in Abraham, therefore in Christ, Abraham’s seed, we are made heirs to the promise God made to Abraham - to all those who believe in Christ - Jews and Gentiles.

However, Abraham had to wait, just like the Old Testament saints had to wait until Christ came. They could not receive eternal life until Jesus death and resurrection. Jesus is the only One to give eternal life to all of mankind that ever lived.

I hope I have provided some clarity to what I was saying.

Mark Quayle · Monday at 7:33 PM

biblelesson said:
It’s impossible for the Old Testament saints to be born again and could not be in Christ.

I don't follow that statement. Are you saying that it is impossible for the OT saints to be born again without also being 'in Christ'? I agree.

biblelesson said:
Christ had to die before anyone could be saved - salvation is through Jesus death on the cross and His resurrection unto life - born again in Christ Jesus.

You use the word, "before". Not true according to temporal sequence; time is not absolute. True according to causal sequence. It is because of Jesus' sacrifice than any can be saved. There is no other way.

biblelesson said:
However, the law of Moses protected the Old Testament saints from condemnation, but they could not be raised from the dead until the death of Christ as they were still in the flesh, and could not have received salvation unto life by the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, because the Spirit of life in Christ was only given after He died for the sins of man, not before. So, those Old Testament saints who died under the law had to wait for Christ death and resurrection to be released from Abraham’s bosom - which happened when the graves opened at Christ’s crucifix, after He rose from the dead.

Still with the temporal dependence. That's not how God sees things. These facts were decreed by God before the foundation of the world.

biblelesson said:
You said, “So how can they believe salvifically while still at enmity with God?”

They were not at enmity with God - animal sacrifice and the shedding of blood placed them in a position of righteousness before God, and all the laws, holy days, sabbath days, cleanliness laws were kept, which were temporary until the faith required for salvation came - faith in Christ Jesus’s death and resurrection for our salvation. Because they were already protected, and because the laws they were under pointed to or even represented Christ, their salvation was sure. You can’t have an Old Testament and New Testament operating at the same time, so those who died keeping the law under the Old Testament were raised at the time of Jesus resurrected - as Jesus was ending the old and bringing in the new.

No. The blood of bulls and goats can save no-one (Hebrews 10:4). And the law serves to demonstrate what righteousness is, and to convince us of our inability to be righteous apart from Christ's righteousness (Romans 3:20). See also Lev 19:2; Gal 3:19-25; Mat 5:19; Rom 3:13-20 (and there are many other relevant passages.)

You say, "Jesus was ending the old and bringing in the new." No, Jesus was fulfilling the old with the new. (Matthew 5:17)

biblelesson said:
Galatians 3:23 KJV
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

So are you saying Abraham had only 'initial faith'? Not real, valid, faith by which we stand? Faith through which we are saved by grace?

biblelesson said:
Galatians 3:22 KJV
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

In regards to the initial faith that brings a person to believe on Christ: The Bible let’s us know we must hear the word before we believe,
Ephesians 1:13 KJV
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

You probably would do well to read that in a more current language than the King James'. Here's the NIV, for example: "13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit," Or, the Berean Literal: "...in whom you also, having heard the word of truth, the gospel your of salvation, in whom also having believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,"

You present what in debate is called a 'red herring fallacy', here. I'm not saying that we don't hear the word before we believe. You are assuming an implication that "hearing before believing" means something of man's decision. 1. Even if you were right, (but you're not), there is nothing here about that trust the KJV refers to, as salvific, but, in fact, it allows that it could be subsequent to salvific faith. That is, the work of God in regenerating one can come before that whole structure you think of as prior to "initial faith". 2. You're not right to assume that "hearing before believing" here means man's eternal destiny hinges on his ability to make a valid decision. It is God's decision, and therefore, valid. Even Paul vacillated (see Romans 7). 3. I in fact do believe that God uses his word to produce obedience to the Gospel, and to give our minds some grasp of what is going on within us. I do not believe that we can contribute anything to make our salvation more real than God makes it.

timothyu · Monday at 7:46 PM

Mark Quayle said:
So are you saying Abraham had only 'initial faith'?

Abraham has what we were supposed to do in and after the Garden, and what Jesus also taught, He put the will of the Father ahead of his own. Rule #1 Its all that's ever mattered.

biblelesson · Monday at 11:06 PM

Mark Quayle said:
I don't follow that statement. Are you saying that it is impossible for the OT saints to be born again without also being 'in Christ'? I agree.

You use the word, "before". Not true according to temporal sequence; time is not absolute. True according to causal sequence. It is because of Jesus' sacrifice than any can be saved. There is no other way.

Still with the temporal dependence. That's not how God sees things. These facts were decreed by God before the foundation of the world.

No. The blood of bulls and goats can save no-one (Hebrews 10:4). And the law serves to demonstrate what righteousness is, and to convince us of our inability to be righteous apart from Christ's righteousness (Romans 3:20). See also Lev 19:2; Gal 3:19-25; Mat 5:19; Rom 3:13-20 (and there are many other relevant passages.)

You say, "Jesus was ending the old and bringing in the new." No, Jesus was fulfilling the old with the new. (Matthew 5:17)

So are you saying Abraham had only 'initial faith'? Not real, valid, faith by which we stand? Faith through which we are saved by grace?

You probably would do well to read that in a more current language than the King James'. Here's the NIV, for example: "13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit," Or, the Berean Literal: "...in whom you also, having heard the word of truth, the gospel your of salvation, in whom also having believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,"

You present what in debate is called a 'red herring fallacy', here. I'm not saying that we don't hear the word before we believe. You are assuming an implication that "hearing before believing" means something of man's decision. 1. Even if you were right, (but you're not), there is nothing here about that trust the KJV refers to, as salvific, but, in fact, it allows that it could be subsequent to salvific faith. That is, the work of God in regenerating one can come before that whole structure you think of as prior to "initial faith". 2. You're not right to assume that "hearing before believing" here means man's eternal destiny hinges on his ability to make a valid decision. It is God's decision, and therefore, valid. Even Paul vacillated (see Romans 7). 3. I in fact do believe that God uses his word to produce obedience to the Gospel, and to give our minds some grasp of what is going on within us. I do not believe that we can contribute anything to make our salvation more real than God makes it.

I’m sorry, but your understanding and my understanding is drastically different and we are at an impasse that I don’t think can get resolved.

But, nonetheless, may God bless you! And may He open our eyes to the truth.

Dave... · Tuesday at 7:16 PM

@biblelesson

Sorry, I haven't forgotten you post. I'll try to get to it tomorrow.

Dave

Dave... · Wednesday at 11:57 AM

biblelesson said:
So, no, but because Abraham’s faith was the type of faith pleasing to God, God made his faith as the basis for righteousness - to where no law was needed. That way the Gentiles could also be saved in Christ if they have, what is call, “the faith,” which is referring to Abraham’s faith, righteousness could then be imputed on them also. “The faith” is required for all, even the Jews.

Hey bbl

Abraham was a prototype. Justification by faith. I believe that you're going beyond that, though.

biblelesson said:
Under the new covenant we live by faith in all aspects of our Christian life - when Apostle Paul say we live by faith, he is speaking of “the faith.” - the faith of Abraham - meaning our faith must match that of Abraham’s. See these scripture,

Here's where I disagree. "The faith" simply means the Bible, the Gospel. The faith of Abraham simply means trusting in God's grace for justification. Being declared righteous by God through trusting in His Promise rather than personal works or merit. That's what the faith of Abraham means. Trusting in grace, not the Law.

biblelesson said:
This is Abraham’s faith, and our faith must match his faith, called “the faith.”
We are not capable of this faith. But God requires it, and has made it possible for us,
Romans 10:17 KJV
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The standards that judge the lost, are also the standards that Jesus satisfied on our behalf, are the Law, not Abrahams faith. You're right, we will never match Abrahams faith. Mainly because the conditions will never be the same. When we believe today, we are immediately born again as a result of being placed into Christ, everything from that point forward that is good, and righteous, is from the Spirit of God. Abraham didn't have that. He had what the Apostles had before Pentecost. The presence of God. Which makes it even more amazing.

Paul said that if Abraham was justified by his works, he has something to boast about. He was justified by faith. Not because it was a super faith, but because it was a faith that trusted that God would provide. That idea is repeated over and over in Scripture, especially Romans. This passage below applies to Abraham as much as us.

Romans 10:3-6 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them." But the righteousness of faith (Abrahams model) speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down from above).

biblelesson said:
In regards to your question, “The righteousness [of God] imputed to us by faith that Abraham was credited with is the opposite of righteousness by the Law. It's imputed to us when we are placed into Christ. Abraham had to wait, but it was credited to him. Agree?

No, not really, as long as Israel kept all the laws, holy days, feasts, cleanliness laws, their adherence to the law was credited to them as righteousness, which is the same righteousness sealed in Abraham - remember Israel was Abraham’s seed in the flesh. But, they could not keep the law and the law cursed them. Although the Gentiles were not part of Israel, the law that condemned Israel also condemned them and they had no way of salvation - now two problems, Israel could no longer be counted as righteous, and the Gentiles could not be counted as righteous. God would now save both,
Romans 11:32-33 KJV
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
 God's judgments are unsearchable
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

The Law could never save anyone. Romans 3:20, Galatians 2:16, 3:13, Romans 8:3, Hebrews 10:1.

biblelesson said:
So, with Abraham, who received the promise before the law, it was Abraham’s faith that God imputed righteous upon so that the Gentiles could also be saved. If our faith is that of Abraham’s faith, righteousness is then imputed on us, without the law. We are then credited with the same righteousness because it’s Abraham’s faith God ordained righteous and placed a seal on it, which was circumcision. So, even before the law, God sealed Abraham with righteousness for the sake of saving the Gentiles and the Jews who later broke the law. Grace was established in Abraham, therefore in Christ, Abraham’s seed, we are made heirs to the promise God made to Abraham - to all those who believe in Christ - Jews and Gentiles.

However, Abraham had to wait, just like the Old Testament saints had to wait until Christ came. They could not receive eternal life until Jesus death and resurrection. Jesus is the only One to give eternal life to all of mankind that ever lived.

I hope I have provided some clarity to what I was saying.

The righteousness imputed to Abrahams was Jesus's righteousness. That's why he had to wait until the death and resurrection of Jesus. No other righteousness qualifies, except the righteousness of God.

I'm guessing that you're Catholic?

Dave.

biblelesson · Wednesday at 7:32 PM

Dave... said:
Hey bbl

Abraham was a prototype. Justification by faith. I believe that you're going beyond that, though.

Justification by faith was established in Abraham, true. But, it went much further than that of a Prototype. God sealing Abraham served as a binding of the promise that he would be the father of many nations; the seal authenticated Abraham’s justification by grace, the gospel, thus actually making him the father of all who believe.

We then are the “actual” children of Abraham, of his seed, grafted in by our faith in Christ, and Christ being of the seed of Abraham grafts us in to the original olive tree - making us heirs to the promise. An heir inherits all that the Father has.

Galatians 3:29 KJV
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 3:7-8 KJV
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Galatians 3:16 KJV
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Romans 11:17 KJV
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Dave... said:
Here's where I disagree. "The faith" simply means the Bible, the Gospel. The faith of Abraham simply means trusting in God's grace for justification. Being declared righteous by God through trusting in His Promise rather than personal works or merit. That's what the faith of Abraham means. Trusting in grace, not the Law.

Dave... said:
The standards that judge the lost, are also the standards that Jesus satisfied on our behalf, are the Law, not Abrahams faith. You're right, we will never match Abrahams faith. Mainly because the conditions will never be the same. When we believe today, we are immediately born again as a result of being placed into Christ, everything from that point forward that is good, and righteous, is from the Spirit of God. Abraham didn't have that. He had what the Apostles had before Pentecost. The presence of God. Which makes it even more amazing.

You are absolutely right, “the faith” is relating to the body of doctrine, that is, the doctrine of Christ, or the gospel of Christ.

But, we have to see Abraham’s faith as the “only” basis of righteousness for us today,

Romans 4:3 KJV
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 4:22-24 KJV,
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

So, it is true that, “The standards that judge the lost, are also the standards that Jesus satisfied on our behalf,” however, how does one enter into that grace?

You are not seeing that grace, justification by faith, the gospel, was established in Abraham for us, which is the righteousness imputed on us also if we believe - believe in Christ.

What I am saying, is our faith cannot be just a statement of faith and belief in Christ, our faith must match that of Abraham’s faith for our justification and for righteousness to be imputed on us as it was imputed on Abraham, we then enter into God grace.

It is so much more than what has been taught. We have nothing to do with God’s salvation plan, we cannot posses Abraham’s faith, and the faith we think we have is not acceptable to God. Salvation is all God’s work to bring us to Christ.

We cannot credit ourselves for having faith because we ourselves don’t have the right faith acceptable to God, and can never have the faith required for our justification in Christ Jesus.

So, what’s happening is God is doing it all. He has already determined justification by grace through Abraham, and predestinated us from the foundation of the world to be conformed to the image of Christ, to be heirs of the kingdom through the seed off Abraham, so to assure the promise, the initial faith we have when we come to Christ is a divinely initiated response to the gospel, where we receive the first fruits of the Spirit, Romans 8:23 KJV, enabling the Holy Spirit Who indwells us to develop a lasting faith all throughout the life of the believer, through challenges, persecution, etc. to the point of being brought into the glorious liberty of the sons of God by the Spirit working in us.

This identifies being in “the faith” - a faith whose power is that of Abraham’s faith given to us by God through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to be conformed to the image of His Son through strengthening us, enabling us to put off the old man, removing our many fleshly emotions, removing selfishness, increasing faith to faith, developing the Fruit of the Spirit, while enduring hardship - our faith must grow to the point of our experiencing being in heavenly places, far above principalities and powers with Christ Jesus, to where if God said we can walk on water, then we walk on water, if God say we can move all mountains, then we move all mountains - to the point to where in all situations good or bad our confidence in God does not waiver, and every request we make, God answers.

Abraham’s faith.

biblelesson · Wednesday at 9:37 PM

Dave... said:
The Law could never save anyone. Romans 3:20, Galatians 2:16, 3:13, Romans 8:3, Hebrews 10:1.

I never said the law could save anyone. And I’m not sure if you are reading what I said. I was explaining how the law allowed for forgiveness of sin, and that it was a temporary covering until Christ came.

Dave... said:
The righteousness imputed to Abrahams was Jesus's righteousness. That's why he had to wait until the death and resurrection of Jesus. No other righteousness qualifies, except the righteousness of God.

I'm guessing that you're Catholic?

No I’m not Catholic. But God imputed righteousness on Abraham because of Abraham’s faith. God established a covenant with Abraham based on justification by faith. God established promises of salvation with Abraham that would extend to his seed, in Christ, that is those who believe in Jesus. God sealed that promise through circumcision. God established, through Abraham, the line His Son, Jesus, would come through to save man, and that line was through Abraham and his seed. When Jesus was born He was born into Abraham seed to assure the promise made to Abraham that he would be the father of many nations. Jesus being our sacrifice, our lord and savior, grafts the believers into the seed of Abraham as children of God where they inherit the kingdom as heirs of God and co- heirs with Christ.

God Has already deemed Abraham righteous and sealed his righteousness, but he could not receive eternal life until Christ came. The reason Abraham had to wait for Christ to be resurrected is because only Christ can give eternal life.

This pdf gives some background on Abraham:

https://www.coffschristadelphians.org/abraham_to_print.pdf

Dave... · 2026-02-12T11:44:34-0600

Hey bbl

biblelesson said:
You are absolutely right, “the faith” is relating to the body of doctrine, that is, the doctrine of Christ, or the gospel of Christ.

Everything that you wrote up until this point I agree with. But it doesn't prove what you wrote next.

biblelesson said:
But, we have to see Abraham’s faith as the “only” basis of righteousness for us today,

Hebrews 11 disagrees. We have the hall of fame of faith. Many are listed. Abraham was considered the prototype because his story provides a foundational pattern for faith apart from the Law. It's not his righteousness. That's why it's imputed. It was the righteousness of God, Jesus as fully man and fully God, satisfying God's requirements of the Law perfectly. Abraham didn't, and couldn't do this. This is why He needed Jesus' righteousness imputed to him. That's why some translations have this righteousness "credited to him". Because it hadn't happened yet (Romans 3:25-28).

biblelesson said:
Romans 4:3 KJV
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 4:22-24 KJV,
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Jesus is the way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by Him.

Dave

We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

What happens spiritually that makes us born again?

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Legend

Active Member

Active Member

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Active Member

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Similar threads