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There is only 2 options, Life formed because of God, or by random chance from non-living matter

The Barbarian

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Or maybe it's just all empty hubris and bluster?
It's an exceptionally clear example:

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias that describes the systematic tendency of people with low ability in a specific area to give overly positive assessments of this ability. The term may also describe the tendency of high performers to underestimate their skills. It was first described by the psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger in 1999.

It's not necessarily a sign of stupidity. Often, persons with considerable achievement in some field or another, assume that such achievements make them experts in things for which they have little or no competence whatever. Many people of low intelligence or limited education have the sense to know their limitations, and often do better than many intelligent and educated people, because they don't assume competence they don't have.
 
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The Barbarian

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i will leave you with a question , who was it first spoke of a finite time universe outside theistic circles.
(edit; in western civilization) Anaxagoras. About 450 BC. Not some latter-day poet. Perhaps it would be good for you to learn a little about this stuff before lecturing us on it.

Evolution certainly should NOT be taught to kids as where life came from.
No kidding. And gravity should not be taught to kids as how electrons move in atoms.

For the same reasons. As you seem to have once again forgotten, evolution is the change in population genomes over time. Nothing about the origin of life. Evolutionary theory is only about evolution, not about how life began.
 
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Mountainmike

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Oddly enough, the above text was the only part of your post that had anything to do with @sjastro 's challenge, off topic thought it may have been. (Don't worry, you don't get anywhere near the topic of this thread in the rest of the post.)

For some reason you want to argue (poorly) about astrophysics. So let it be...


That's a bit vague and for some raisin brings this clip to mind:




You think we don't know who Henrietta Leavitt is? Seriously? If you want unsung, try Cecelia Payne. Not knowing Leavitt is like not knowing Salpeter or Jansky.

Everything is science is provisional, you know that. But what change in the calibration of the Leavitt relationship are you expecting to make the astronomers all look like fools for using it?

That was Albert Einstein's postulate. The consequences (relativity) are clear and have been repeatedly demonstrated to be accurate.

Perhaps you should read up on measurement theory, calibration ,or systematic error. These vague accusations are getting you nowhere. (Technically, they are at rest with respect to your local reference frame.)

So you have claimed before, but I am awaiting empirical data that fits your proposed model of you.

"Distance a variable"? What is this jibber jabber. Your random keyboard spasms don't make sense without context, Mike. We don't read minds. (Like other things in the paranormal zoo, mind reading is bunk.)

I hope your professors don't see your posts here.


It's Fred Hoyle and he really didn't like the whole "finite expansion" model. He hated it so much he gave it a mocking name "the Big Bang" and invented his own "steady state" expanding cosmology where new matter continually kept coming into existence. Part of that was force by his *own* work on the origin of elements and demonstration of how heavy elements could be generated by stars from H/He -- A result that is perfectly compatible with the BB itself. Hoyle's idea wasn't exactly popular (nor was Alfven's "plasma cosmology") and fell apart as more evidence was collected, particularly the CMB and comparisons of abundance measurements to the results of "Big Bang nucleosynthesis" (the initial composition of the Universe's stars). And here we call back to Cecelia Payne who demonstrated that stars were mostly hydrogen and helium. (Sure Feynmann laid the basis for QFT in his dissertation, but Payne figured out what stars are made of in hers.)

Albert Einstein was not comfortable with the expanding/contrating spacetime solutions so he included a new term that didn't interfere with anything else GR did. Was it needed? (No, not at that time.) Was it counter to evidence? (No, it was not.) Parsimony required no cosmological constant in contructing GR, but the lack of evidence for expansion or contraction of space meant it probably wasn't the best thing for space to go around expading or contracting willy nilly.

Yep, that's right, when Einstein added "Lambda" to the GR field equations in 1917, there was no data that the Universe was expanding. Hubble was still a Ph.D. student at Yerkes, and would not discover the recession of the spiral nebulae for another decade and after moving to live on a California mountain. (Perhaps you did not get to this in your study of model building, yet. Keep up the study. You'll get there eventually.)

That was a bit incoherent. The Universe *is* expanding. Recent measurement of lambda do leave open the possibility of oscillating models again, but "the Big Bang" is still happening.

I wish you people would learn that "observer" in QM is not a thinking agent. It is just another system that is interacted with.

Projection.

You claim vast experience in "math modelling", but your long history of posts does not match those claims.

LOL.

I've read hundreds of his posts and only seen those replies when the other poster is obnoxious, arrogant, and obstinately ignorant.

Why is that relevant? Did your wife run off with an astrophysicist? Does @sjastro confuse you? He's not an astrophysicist, but an amateur astronomer and works (ed?) in industry.

Speaking of claims I don't buy...

So are they arrogant or humble, pick a lane.

Don't care. Niether poety or theology are based on facts. They are irrelevant.

This is just part of your petty fight and not interesting.

Have you never heard the proverb that "Thou shall reap what thou hast sown."? I thought it was more common, though it arises from an obscure bit of Greco-Judaic writing you may not be familiar with. Perhaps you also know "An elephant never forgets" or "Once Bitten, Twice Shy". The latter comes from you island 50 years ago, but was made more popular (as is often the case) by Americans.
Since your post is civil, I will answer once .


You are the poster who once ventured the statement that all but for details evolution had life solved .
I cant be bothered to search it back but you said something similar.

I find It hard to believe , you believe that or even close, if you have researched it because at every stage there are massive chasms to jump. So whilst I don’t doubt your bona fides in your day job, I question whether you turn curiosity off at the door when you come home.

At no level does Evolution have answers . Not chemical evolution, biological evolution from the first cell to dna cells, or even in macro development . The definitin of life is a serious problem , as is the origin of consciousness the primary essence of life Indeed as I have stated even feynmann believed consciusness was primary, matter and ebergy secondary.

But to all who are civil I will tell them something they dont seem to know
begin at the begginning .

Chase down Edward peltzer .
He is a chemist who says evolutonary biologists are a problem because they conjecture what might happen in violation of what chemistry dictates .
His claim to fame is he also a chemistry researcher who worked for miller of miller Urey , he continued their work , he analyzed meteorites , and thermal vents and says for a heap of reasons all those studies drmonstrated life could NOT
I repeat NOT start that way . Miller Urey a total fail. Who knew?! Did you?
All For sound organic chemistry reasons. Eg The isoforms are not just L ,and the others R poison reactions, there are a heap of other chemicals produced, that swamp and react with the amino acids so even the few produced are only short lived. Any sugars around immediately do a Maillard reaction. So the amino acid of which there are few is no longer ! Most of the amino acids are not life acids and a problem. Side chains are also death to the reaction.
Also Time is not the friend of evolution it is the enemy.
These organic chemicals last hours Before denature even if they don’t get gobbled up, so for any protein all the right things have to be there together within hours in high concentration , without poisons that never happens!
He analyzed vents and meteorites and came to similar conclusions.
He says RNA world couldn’t happen either, for a different heap of chemistry reasons.
Or follow such as James tour. For the same conclusion . Father of nano motors and expert organic chemist. He rips apart OOL wishful thinking With actual organic chemistry! The entire narrative of early life falls apart when it collides with real organo chemistry.
In short, The existing narrative of Life from evolution is all wishful thinking

I think all that because the REAL experts do! Listen to the chemists ! .
i chased down the guy who did miller Urey.!

Study it all, then take an opinion.
Just like you would do in your day job.

You frustrate sensible dialogue by sophistry. I can’t be bothered . eg when the speed of light was set by decree , what used to be seen as small measured variation of c, MUST then manifest as a variation of distance . Obvious .why argue?

I am off, to fascinating places where science is discussed, not apriori belief in material reductionism, ie Scientism
i will leave you to to the echo chamber.. I think you have lost your curiosity,
I once asked you what was your favourite new science discovery for the year. You couldn’t answer . Sad.
in the end it’s our curiosity that keeps science going,

farewell.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Since your post is civil, I will answer once .
Perhaps you don't understand much of what I wrote.
You are the poster who once ventured the statement that all but for details evolution had life solved .
I cant be bothered to search it back but you said something similar.
It's weird. On this OOL/Evolution thread, I responded to your post about "not-biology questions" with various "not-biologuy answers, but for some reason your reply to that post is about evolution?
I find It hard to believe , you believe that or even close, if you have researched it because at every stage there are massive chasms to jump. So whilst I don’t doubt your bona fides in your day job, I question whether you turn curiosity off at the door when you come home.
So much for feigned civility.
At no level does Evolution have answers . Not chemical evolution, biological evolution from the first cell to dna cells, or even in macro development . The definitin of life is a serious problem , as is the origin of consciousness the primary essence of life Indeed as I have stated even feynmann believed consciusness was primary, matter and ebergy secondary.
Why should I care what Feynmann thought about consciusness and ebergy?
But to all who are civil I will tell them something they dont seem to know
begin at the begginning .
You really do think you are civil, don't you? SMH.
Chase down Edward peltzer .
He is a chemist who says evolutonary biologists are a problem because they conjecture what might happen in violation of what chemistry dictates .
Another fool outside their expertise. Why not just use a ranting James Tour?
He’s also a chemistry research who worked for miller of miller Urey , he continued their work , he analyzed meteorites , and thermal vents and says for a heap of reasons all those studies drmonstrated life could not start that way For spund organic chemistry reasons. The isoforms are not just L ,and the others poison reactions, there are a heap of other chemicals produced that react with the amino acids so they are only short lived.
Time is not the friend of evolution it is the enemy. These organic chemicals last hours Before denature even if they don’t get gobbled up, so all the right things have to be there together within hours. He analyzed vents and meteorites and came to similar conclusions. RNA world couldn’t happen either, for a heap of chemistry reasons,
I can't render judgement on this tangle of writing until it is cleaned up.
Or follow such as James tour.
I spoke too soon. Sigh.
The entire narrative of early life falls apart when it collides with real organo chemistry.
The existing narrative od Life from evolution is all wishful thinking.

Study it all, then take an opinion.
Oh look, the string of personal jabs and insults are about to begin.
Just like you would do in your day job.

You frustrate A sensible dialogue by sophistry.
There was little sensible in your prior posts in this thread.
I can’t be bothered .
Sure looks like you can.
eg when the speed of light was set by decree , what used to be seen as small measured variation of c, MUST then manifest as a variation of distance . Obvious .why argue?
You seem to be inferring some specific experiment or set of experiments, but there is a severe impedance mismatch going on here. Write more complete thoughts and explicit references.
I am off, to fascinating places where science is discussed, not apriori belief in material reductionism, ie Scientism
Seems a likely story.
i will leave you to to the echo chamber..
You think CF is an echo chamber. :rolleyes:
I think you have lost your curiosity,
I lack curiosity in your vaguely referenced, conspiratorial fantasies.
I once asked you what was your favourite new science discovery for the year. You couldn’t answer .
Was it because I don't have a favorite, or was it because I don't remember which discoveries were made "this year"?
Sad.
in the end it’s our curiosity that keeps scientists going,
You've misused the first person plural.
 
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childeye 2

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A way of describing mathematics and reality which is how we intuitively process our surroundings, mathematics is a model based reality and mind dependant, whereas as our intuitive concept of reality is mind independent and ontological irrespective if we are aware of it or not.
In this case mathematics is used to explain things we can’t intuitively or makes predictions; quantum mechanics is a prime example of this, leading to many interpretations in trying making sense of the mathematics.

Even this explanation is not totally satisfactory and leads to another issue is mathematics invented or discovered?
There is a myriad of examples of mathematics invented at an elementary level to explain empirical evidence but in particle physics which is the experimental application of QFT, it is found various properties of subatomic particles fall within mathematical symmetry groups.

These groups are not invented and are ontological, the question arises are they fundamental or do they emerge from an even deeper underlying mathematics?

Particle TypeExamples
Mathematical Symmetry Group​
Notes on Role of Symmetry
Quarksu, d, s, c, b, tSU(3) (color), SU(2) (weak), U(1)(hypercharge)SU(3) governs strong interactions (color), SU(2)×U(1) governs weak and electromagnetic interactions.
Leptonse⁻, μ⁻, τ⁻, νₑ, ν_μ, ν_τSU(2) (weak), U(1)(hypercharge)Leptons are color-neutral; weak isospin and hypercharge classify their weak/electromagnetic interactions.
Gluonsg (8 types)SU(3) (color) adjoint representationMediators of the strong force; transform under SU(3) color symmetry.
PhotonγU(1) (electromagnetic)Massless mediator of electromagnetic force; arises from breaking of SU(2)×U(1).
W⁺, W⁻, Z⁰ bosonsW⁺, W⁻, Z⁰SU(2) (weak) × U(1) (hypercharge)Mediators of weak force; acquire mass via Higgs mechanism (symmetry breaking).
Higgs bosonH⁰SU(2) (weak) × U(1) (hypercharge) (scalar)Responsible for spontaneous symmetry breaking; gives mass to W/Z bosons and fermions.
Thank you for this response. I see these same patterns in a semantic matrix. I've also seen how Physics shows that time is the minimal operational quantity to define all physical measurements. In my work, time is also the minimal existential condition needed for the semantic primitive (the invariant meaning) to be realized. In this sense meaning is the semantic matrix beneath mathematics and time is the "bridge" that allows meaning to become measurable.
 
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The Barbarian

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At no level does Evolution have answers .
That's wrong, also. For example, evolutionary theory (not evolution; you continue to confuse the phenomenon with the theory that explains it) And it predicted transitions between birds and other dinosaurs (Thomas Huxley), the evolution of antibiotic resistance (Alexander Flemming) and many other things. Again what you don't know is crippling you in these discussions.

Not chemical evolution, biological evolution from the first cell to dna cells, or even in macro development . The definitin of life is a serious problem , as is the origin of consciousness the primary essence of life Indeed as I have stated even feynmann believed consciusness was primary, matter and ebergy secondary.
You're still confusing evolutionary theory with the origin of life. Even Darwin just suggested that God created the first living things. Because you have no idea what evolutionary theory is about, you're wandering off into all kinds of dead ends.

Chase down Edward peltzer .
He is a chemist who says evolutonary biologists are a problem because they conjecture what might happen in violation of what chemistry dictates .
Eddie is wrong beyond not knowing what evolutionary theory is. The Murchison meteorite has shown that amino acids form naturally, and even form short protein sequences called peptides.

All For sound organic chemistry reasons. Eg The isoforms are not just L ,and the others R poison reactions
Not surprisingly, the Murchison meteorite showed an excess of L-form amino acids. Just so we know, explain to us the difference between L-form and R-form amino acids.

Whether this evolution resumed on the Earth to foster biogenesis after exogenous delivery of meteoritic and cometary materials is not known, yet, the selective abundance of biomolecule precursors evident in some cosmic environments and the unique L-asymmetry of some meteoritic amino acids are suggestive of their possible contribution to terrestrial molecular evolution.

These organic chemicals last hours Before denature even if they don’t get gobbled up
Actually, they last for decades on carbonaceous meteorites. Before there were microbes, there was nothing to gobble them up. Think.

farewell.
God bless, and wishes that things turn out better for you elsewhere. You've brought up some important misconceptions YECs have, and it's always good to discuss them. In your own way, you've contributed to the forum.
 
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Free2bHeretical4Him!

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I didn’t give you the Scripture we’re talking about? It’s Genesis 2:7 — “Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.” I made a comment about the “breath of life.” Everyone already knows we have a soul, so the real question is: what is a soul?
May I suggest that the Scripture you provided teaches man doesn’t ”have” a soul. The key word in the phrase you highlighted above is “became.” Man “is” a soul comprised of body and spirit. The spirit is that which animates man in to a living, breathing, thinking, feeling creature. Man does not “have“ a soul. He ”is“ a soul.

”then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.“
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12‬:‭7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
 
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Firstlightdawn

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Man does not “have“ a soul. He ”is“ a soul.
That is interesting because Moses says heart, soul and strength. Jesus says heart, mind, soul and strength. Why does Jesus add the word "mind" to what Moses said? Is that just the translation from Hebrew to Greek? Because having a soul is a Greek concept more than a Hebrew concept that we are a living soul.
 
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sjastro

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The Murchison meteorite has shown that amino acids form naturally, and even form short protein sequences called peptides.


Not surprisingly, the Murchison meteorite showed an excess of L-form amino acids. Just so we know, explain to us the difference between L-form and R-form amino acids.

Whether this evolution resumed on the Earth to foster biogenesis after exogenous delivery of meteoritic and cometary materials is not known, yet, the selective abundance of biomolecule precursors evident in some cosmic environments and the unique L-asymmetry of some meteoritic amino acids are suggestive of their possible contribution to terrestrial molecular evolution.


Actually, they last for decades on carbonaceous meteorites. Before there were microbes, there was nothing to gobble them up. Think.
In @Mountainmike's long winded response on defending his windmill pseudoscience nonsense of which 99% was irrelevant including the statement of scientists assuming the speed of light c is constant over the history of the universe.
This is a typical YEC narrative but our self professed genius doesn't seem to comprehend the contradictory nature when applied to the Murchison meteorite.

The strength of the electromagnetic force is governed by the fine structure constant α which depends on c.

Fine.png


To fit in with a 6,000 year old, 10,000 year old universe or whatever the current fashion is, c must have been orders of magnitude higher a few thousand years ago and α considerably smaller.
If the strength of the electromagnetic force was very much weaker in the past, the formation of organic compounds in the meteorite would have been impossible as thermal energies would exceed the disassociation energy of the covalent bonds.

In fact complex (organic) chemistry can only survive within small range of α.

range.png


Here α is the variable and αₒ is the present day value.

Then there is the dating of the meteorite using independent isotopic systems such as U-Pb, Rb-Sr, Sm-Nd and Al-Mg where their error bars overlap and give an mean value of ~4.56 billion years.
It's remarkable how these different systems produce the same error if we are to believe the narrative presented here.
 
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Free2bHeretical4Him!

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That is interesting because Moses says heart, soul and strength. Jesus says heart, mind, soul and strength. Why does Jesus add the word "mind" to what Moses said? Is that just the translation from Hebrew to Greek? Because having a soul is a Greek concept more than a Hebrew concept that we are a living soul.
Hey brother. I tend to look at those descriptive words as comprising the sum total of that which constitutes man. Like the heart being the base for emotions/feelings, the mind is that which comprises the intellect/thoughts, strength relating to ones ability and soul the sum total of all these attributes. No expert or theologian on these matters, just sharing my understanding as I see from the Scripture.

P.S. Don’t want to derail this thread as I am enjoying expanding my understanding of the theory of evolution. There are some very learned men on this thread trying to share their related fields of expertises. I find nothing presented here threatening to my faith. If the theory of evolution is true, and it seems to me the strengths of the arguments put forth in this thread, and others like it, are more compelling than the rebuttals. If I become convinced, I will have no issue embracing the theory of evolution for my hope is in the living God, not the scriptures which direct me to the one who IS THE TRUTH. After all, he said the volume of the book was written of him. Some, as Jesus stated, search the Scriptures for in them they think they have life. Again. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life … I simply rest in Him and His immense love for me and all men.

blessings …
 
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The Barbarian

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This is a typical YEC narrative but our self professed genius doesn't seem to comprehend the contradictory nature when applied to the Murchison meteorite.

The strength of the electromagnetic force is governed by the fine structure constant α which depends on c.

Fine.png


To fit in with a 6,000 year old, 10,000 year old universe or whatever the current fashion is, c must have been orders of magnitude higher a few thousand years ago and α considerably smaller.
If the strength of the electromagnetic force was very much weaker in the past, the formation of organic compounds in the meteorite would have been impossible as thermal energies would exceed the disassociation energy of the covalent bonds.
Today's winner. IIRC, the speed of light also depends on c. And if ionizing radiation from background sources was higher by orders of magnitude, that would have been destructive to all life.
 
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Firstlightdawn

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In fact complex (organic) chemistry can only survive within small range of α.
The laws of physics are exact and precise, at least down to the Planck scale. The closer we get to that level of precision, the closer we come to what God reveals about Himself. You like using zero, and as a carpenter, we aim for the same thing—getting as close to zero as possible. I use the cone because it keeps time and the expansion of the universe in the exact ratio of 1.98. If we round it to 2, the butterfly effect takes over and the model loses accuracy. The deeper question underneath all of this is entanglement. Because then we see there is no time and there is no distance.

  • The early universe was causally connected before expansion stretched regions apart
  • The CMB’s uniformity requires pre‑expansion coherence
  • That coherence behaves mathematically like entangled initial conditions
 
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Firstlightdawn

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the speed of light also depends on c.
The speed of light means a photon doesn’t experience zero time in the casual sense. It experiences time approaching zero—the mathematical limit—not literal zero.

dτ = dt * sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2)
 
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The Barbarian

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The laws of physics are exact and precise, at least down to the Planck scale. The closer we get to that level of precision, the closer we come to what God reveals about Himself.
1770428466852.jpeg
 
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Firstlightdawn

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If the theory of evolution is true,
We are talking about the standard biology book most high‑school graduates are required to read. I buy them used for about $5 on Amazon, and they’re usually in good shape because most students barely open them except for the chapter on sex. You’ll see some writing in the margins—high‑school students can’t resist that—but the books hold up well. Older editions usually have one chapter that’s been updated, so you won’t get the newest information in that section.
 
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Firstlightdawn

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There is the additive and subtractive color theory. My art, like my aviator filters lights more than it is reflected. I did use a template for that. So it is not actually my design.
 
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sjastro

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Today's winner. IIRC, the speed of light also depends on c. And if ionizing radiation from background sources was higher by orders of magnitude, that would have been destructive to all life.
Instead of looking at the ionization energy the photodissociation energy is even more impressive. :)
The Sun is (sort of) a blackbody with a peak spectral radiance per unit wavelength near 500 nm corresponding to an energy of 2.5 eV, by comparison the photodissociation energy of the C-C (carbon) covalent bond is 3.6 eV.

It's known from QM the disassociation energy of a covalent bond is proportional to α².

2.5/3.6 = (α/α₀)²
0.69 = (α/α₀)²
α ≈ 0.83α₀

If in the past α was reduced by as little as 17%, sunlight would have had enough energy to destroy organic matter.
 
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