Can you have justice without judgment?

o_mlly · Feb 1, 2026

Firstlightdawn said:
Just what does this mean? How can we confess sin if we do not know what sin is?

In order to commit sin, one must know the act is contrary to God's plan. God reveals His plan in Scripture and the Decalogue and the Beatitudes are sure guides for us to avoid sin.

Ignorance of God's plan may be vincible or invincible. Only the invincibly ignorant can commit evil acts and avoid some, if not all, the culpability of their objectively evil sin.

partinobodycular · Feb 1, 2026

o_mlly said:
Ignorance of God's plan may be vincible or invincible. Only the invincibly ignorant can commit evil acts and avoid some, if not all, the culpability of their objectively evil sin.

From my perspective everyone is invincibly ignorant and I try my best to treat them that way. People are irrational through no fault of their own, so it would be unjust of me to treat them as if they were.

o_mlly · Feb 1, 2026

partinobodycular said:
From my perspective everyone is invincibly ignorant and I try my best to treat them that way.

As to another's sin, I agree. Only they and God can know.

partinobodycular said:
People are irrational through no fault of their own, so it would be unjust of me to treat them as if they were.

Yes, I agree. Only a mind reader, whose skill at doing so is absolute, could presume otherwise. I know of only one such Being.

Firstlightdawn · Feb 1, 2026

o_mlly said:
In order to commit sin, one must know the act is contrary to God's plan.

If I eat salt I retain water and my ancles and feet swell up. So what is it I need not to know in order for that not to happen? My point is that there are consequences if I know or not.

Firstlightdawn · Feb 1, 2026

David Lamb said:
That can be said of any matter of Christian belief. You cannot believe on the Lord Jesus Christ if you don't know Who He is. The same Goes for the Holy Spirit, justification, sanctification, the devil and so on.

Three in one. I know God because of Jesus, I know Jesus because of the Holy Spirit.

David Lamb · Feb 2, 2026

Firstlightdawn said:
Three in one. I know God because of Jesus, I know Jesus because of the Holy Spirit.

I agree. (I hope what I wrote in my post didn't give you the mistaken idea that I disagreed with the Trinity).

o_mlly · Feb 2, 2026

Firstlightdawn said:
If I eat salt I retain water and my ancles and feet swell up. So what is it I need not to know in order for that not to happen? My point is that there are consequences if I know or not.

Sorry, I don't see your point. Perhaps you could rephrase.

Firstlightdawn · Feb 2, 2026

o_mlly said:
Sorry, I don't see your point. Perhaps you could rephrase.

Yes, I Get too brief sometimes. The point is:

Whether I know or not, the consequences are still real. That’s the pattern you see all through Scripture and all through life. Ignorance doesn’t erase reality. If a person breaks a law they didn’t know existed, the effect still happens. If someone touches fire without understanding heat, they still get burned. And spiritually, the same principle holds: God’s order doesn’t depend on our awareness of it.

This is why the Bible emphasizes learning, remembering, and passing down truth. The oral tradition mattered because people needed to know what was true long before anything was written. But even when someone didn’t know, the consequences still unfolded. Cause and effect don’t wait for our understanding.

In other words: truth doesn’t change based on whether we recognize it. And consequences don’t pause until we’re ready for them.

o_mlly · Feb 2, 2026

Firstlightdawn said:
Yes, I Get too brief sometimes. The point is:

Whether I know or not, the consequences are still real. That’s the pattern you see all through Scripture and all through life. Ignorance doesn’t erase reality. If a person breaks a law they didn’t know existed, the effect still happens. If someone touches fire without understanding heat, they still get burned. And spiritually, the same principle holds: God’s order doesn’t depend on our awareness of it.

This is why the Bible emphasizes learning, remembering, and passing down truth. The oral tradition mattered because people needed to know what was true long before anything was written. But even when someone didn’t know, the consequences still unfolded. Cause and effect don’t wait for our understanding.

In other words: truth doesn’t change based on whether we recognize it. And consequences don’t pause until we’re ready for them.

Thanks.

Reality exists and is independent of the human mind.
Truth is a mind in conformance with reality.
Not all minds, at all times, conform to reality.
Sin is in the intellect and will.
These two faculties are unique to human beings (made in His image).
Sin has both an objective and subjective reality.
The objective reality is that sin offends God.
Subjectively, to sin one must therefore knowingly (intellect) and freely (willfully) choose to disobey God.
The culpability for sin depends on one's knowledge and degree of freedom at the time of the act.
To avoid culpability for his evil acts or omissions, one may not claim ignorance that he could have reasonably corrected.
The Natural Law obtains.

"Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment.... For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God.... His conscience is man's most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths."

partinobodycular · Feb 2, 2026

Firstlightdawn said:
Whether I know or not, the consequences are still real. That’s the pattern you see all through Scripture and all through life. Ignorance doesn’t erase reality. If a person breaks a law they didn’t know existed, the effect still happens. If someone touches fire without understanding heat, they still get burned. And spiritually, the same principle holds: God’s order doesn’t depend on our awareness of it.

Not to step on what @o_mlly just said, but I think that what you're missing is that there are the natural consequences of someone's actions, and then there are the legal consequences of those actions. Invincible ignorance doesn't excuse someone from the natural consequences, but it may mitigate the legal consequences.

If it weren't so then God's grace would afford us nothing for our sins could never be forgiven. But as it is there are two things that may mitigate our culpability for our sins... at least in the eyes of the Catholic church. Those two things are repentance and invincible ignorance. At least that's the understanding of someone who was born a Catholic but hasn't been to church in a long, long time.

Firstlightdawn · Feb 2, 2026

partinobodycular said:
I think that what you're missing is that there are the natural consequences of someone's actions, and then there are the legal consequences of those actions

I have been doing a study of the Justice of God during the Kingdom age. His justice is a lot different from man's justice.

God’s justice is perfect because He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from Him — motives, wounds, intentions, and consequences. So His judgments are never guesses or estimates.

God’s justice restores instead of just punishing. Human justice stops at penalties. God’s justice repairs what was broken and brings people back into alignment with what is right.

God’s justice is completely fair. No favoritism, no bias, no political angle. Every person stands equal before Him.

God’s justice is patient. He gives time, warnings, and mercy before judgment. His patience is part of His justice, not a contradiction to it.

God’s justice and mercy work together. Mercy gives space to repent. Justice sets things right. Both come from the same heart.

God’s justice is revealed fully in Jesus. At the cross, God didn’t ignore sin — He paid the cost Himself. That is divine justice and divine mercy in one act.

o_mlly · Feb 3, 2026

partinobodycular said:
Invincible ignorance doesn't excuse someone from the natural consequences, but it may mitigate the legal consequences.

Invincible ignorance is an absolute excuse from culpability in morality. In law, no so much.

partinobodycular said:
But as it is there are two things that may mitigate our culpability for our sins... at least in the eyes of the Catholic church. Those two things are repentance and invincible ignorance.

In addition to contrite repentance, the church requires the sinner to amend their lives with the help of His grace to sin no more. As I wrote earlier, at least in my case, multiple rinse and repeats may be necessary.

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Can you have justice without judgment?

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