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There is only 2 options, Life formed because of God, or by random chance from non-living matter

The Barbarian

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If your arguments are good enough challenge one of the points I made!
Unsupported assertions. But I gave you the opportunity to recover. Tell us which of the four points of Darwinian theory have been shown to be false.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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They are called inconvenient facts for materialist reductionists.
why is you think an insult “ half baked “ is appropriate ?
That was the reason I entered the thread . To challenge an insult made by another. It’s what Scientism believers do.

If your arguments and study are good enough challenge one of the points I made.

Since you never actually put forward anything of challenge, nor do you actually back anything you say with any sources or citations, and you have historically made a pointed refusal to do so when pressed... then I will call them half-baked for sure. If the shoe fits, wear it.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Where have YOU been?
What an odd question. We've been here all along.
You do know that darwinian evolution as proposed is essentially dead.
Darwin obviously didn't know a lot of things we do today (genetics, molecular biology, etc.), but his basic concept of change under selection actually *does* hold up and remains a key core of modern evolutionary theory.
Not that it was ever any good.
That's a bold claim for someone who wraps his creationism in a cloak of claimed scientific authority.
That most inheritance is not even from genes.
LOL.
That life is certainly not progressive small change and there are not enough geberations to account for evolution
I don't think you are capable of determining the number of geberations needed, Mike.
( try how did a whale get from land if you want to focus on the absurdity of it)
If you want to look less foolish, try something that isn't so well documented.
That life from chemistry is no further in the last 50years than it was as pure guess when miller Urey failed to account for even basic proteins .
Your expressed gross ignorance is growing, Mike. There has been lots of progress on OOL research (and I recall discussing it with you during prior appearances on this board) in the last 50+ years. All of the basic building blocks of the needed chemicals can be built in prebiotic conditions. (Many of them even in molecular clouds and interstellar grains.)

[Proteins are just amino acid polymers and the amino acids can be made and found in such conditions.]
That there is nothing even conjectured simpler than the modern massively complicated cell.
Of course there is. It is called the "proto-cell". If you don't actually know about it already you should go look it up.
The information scale problem makes any genome so highly unlikely it didn’t happen from chance.
Good grief -- information "theory". :rolleyes:
That life has consciousness and not just schrodinger but even feynmann believed consciusness was primary, matter secondary .
Oh my, the argument from dead QM pioneers. No this nonsense again.
Evolution has no account for consciusness or it’s survival outside the body,
There is no evidence for consciousness outside of animal brains.
In short you are stuck in a materialist reductionist world that has no underpinning except your belief in it!
Belief is useless in science. It is not used. The material world actually exists as our own experience clearly shows.
like flat earth it is a bygone age.
At least you're not a flerfer. It isn't enough to get you out of your reality hole.
so tell us , since there is no single theory of evolutin and certainly not one that accounts for life development as we know it, that the start is completely unknown, let’s hear your personal theory of evolution?
You didn't ask me this question as this message was a reply to others, but if you did ask me I would tell you that I am not a biologist and haven't studied biology in 30 years.
I keep asking evolutionists for a definition, none of them seem to have studied it enough to know there isn’t a single one.
As you should remember, I am a physicist, not a biologist. I do not study evolution, so, I am am not an "evolutionary biologist" or, as you would say, an "evolutionist".
it is you I think needs education on all that took place in the last 50 years.

My essential point is you have no basis to be rude to others!
Coming in strong as usual, I see. As this wasn't my message to reply to, I will not take this as a personal insult. (I can wait.)
i prefer science to evolutionist Scientism that is increasingly unsupportable.
It helps when you don't invent fantasies about what actual scientists do and know and our knowledge of things.
 
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sjastro

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That life has consciousness and not just schrodinger but even feynmann believed consciusness was primary, matter secondary . Evolution has no account for consciusness or it’s survival outside the body.
Try using a capital letter when typing surnames.
So Feynman believed consciousness was primary and matter secondary, lets put it to the test using his path integral formulation in QM.

Being the self professed phenomenal genius as you keep on reminding us I don't have to explain to you according to Feynman a particle travelling from "here" to "there" can take on an infinite number of pathways.

Path.png

According to classical physics based on LaGrangian mechanics a particle with classical action S is defined as:

path1.png


Feynman extended this idea for a path integral K based on summing all possible pathways Dq(t) according to the equation:

path2.png


Being the genius that you are, you would instantly recognize a small change in the path results in a large change in the action S, which causes the phase of exp(iS/h) to change rapidly.

What do you think happens when you sum pathways that are out of phase, they destructively interfere with each other and cancel out.
The classical pathway occurs where δS = 0 which corresponds to q₃(t) in the diagram. Small variations in S occur near this classical pathway where phases change slowly and add constructively producing the most likely pathways a particle will take.

Consciousness plays no role in which pathway a particle decides to take (like in the double slit experiment for electrons), it is decided by the mathematics.
 
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The Barbarian

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Consciousness plays no role in which pathway a particle decides to take (like in the double slit experiment for electrons), it is decided by the mathematics.
And I, for one, do not ever intend to challenge sjastro regarding mathematics.
 
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sjastro

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And I, for one, do not ever intend to challenge sjastro regarding mathematics.
Here is a maths free version of Feymamn path integral formulation.


What is remarkable path integral formulation was Feynman's PhD thesis, not some post doctorate research.

 
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The Barbarian

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I gave Mountainmike the opportunity to recover and tell us which of the four points of Darwinian theory have been shown to be false.

And yet another YEC who can't do it. I wonder if anyone will ever step up and tell us.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Being the self professed phenomenal genius as you keep on reminding us I don't have to explain to you according to Feynman a particle travelling from "here" to "there" can take on an infinite number of pathways.
You go from "here" to "there" through "everywhere".
 
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mcswan1946

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It looks to me then, that we are a Soul with a body. Not in the Plato perspective, but as a whole essence of Being.
I agree, I think that's the nature of man.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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I gave Mountainmike the opportunity to recover and tell us which of the four points of Darwinian theory have been shown to be false.

And yet another YEC who can't do it. I wonder if anyone will ever step up and tell us.

Just as a refresher; what are the four points of Darwinian evolution? Not that I imagine an intellect like Mountainmike needs a refresher, but some of us laypeople do.
 
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The Barbarian

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Just as a refresher; what are the four points of Darwinian evolution?
  • More are born than can live long enough to reproduce.
  • Every individual is somewhat different than the parents.
  • Some of these differences affect the likelihood of living long enough to reproduce.
  • The useful differences tend to accumulate in the population and the harmful ones tend to be removed. (natural selection) This can result in speciation.
 
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Mountainmike

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Well, that's a testable assumption. Which of the four points of Darwinian theory have been refuted? Name the point and how it's been refuted. If you do that, you'll be the first person answer my question. What do you have?

Show us that. Epigenetics is a rather small contributor to inheritance. Even most YECs admit that much.

Even honest YECs admit that there is abundant evidence for the evolution of whales. Would you like me to show you?

Here you've wrongly assumed that evolution is about the way life began. Even Darwin assumed that God created the first living things.
"People are down on things they aren't up on."
Everett Dirkson


Darwin's is a good start. Tell us which of his points in the theory have been refuted. Most YECs cut and run at this point. But maybe you're different. What do you have?

Funny thing. A little over 50 years ago, when I started in biology, we were missing a lot of transitional fossils. Now, a very large number of them have been found. And the mechanisms of heredity have been worked out. And an entirely new science, evolutionary development, has shown how developmental genes account for phylogenetic change. But you know nothing about any of this, do you. Someone needs education on all that took place in the last 50 years.

Let's see if you can come up with an answer for us. Good luck.
Whilst I laud the fact you actually responded with other than only insults ,
my basis is scientist not YEC or worse the even more discountable faith of Scientism materialist .
My interest is what science can show, not what life only from evolution believers believe

Since you couldn’t resist an attack on saying “ I don’t know that”
I will state you don’t know what I know.
you will get only one response, unless you answer my two questions. Without insult.

We will get to them after noting your logical non sequitur. I did not oppose any of Darwins postulates ( although some are far from proven ) - what I stated was darwinian postulates of evolution cannot account for life.. It was a working hypothesis based only on what he knew. - so your first argument is a fail on the broader question of life .

Darwin evolutin I’d like saying “ I can get closer to the moon by walking up this hill” then concluding
therefore I can get to the Moon by walking up hill, see the problem?
Extrapolating a small Observation assuming all else follows?

There are indeed jumps. It is indeed “ a theory in crisis” for many reasons follow the survey of arguments in the book of that name. I’ll give you other authors when you have read those arguments.

Whale gestation is so slow there are not enough generations for the mass of adaptation necessary .
life proceeds in jumps, not Darwin’s small change, some species don’t change at all.
darwin knew nothing of genotype or phenotype , it’s why he went off track.

As for inheritance generally , more than genome , start with basics like noble , on why neo Darwinism doesnt work.
Many other authors go way beyond that. Junk dna is not junk.

If you want to talk evolution of life You should focus on two questions.

1/ the absence of any cell structure postulated before the massively complicated modern DNA cell. that is the organism on which to question evolution development. All living things come from it. The information contained is vast . but Where did it come from? All attempts to reverse engineer it renoving parts fail. What preceded it?
No bottom up nor top down path is even conjectured ,

So if you want a theory of levolution start with .the basics, the cell.

And
2/ what is consciousness? leading physicists believe consciousness is primary , not matter- .a mass of evidence says When you say” I am“ it is your consciousness speaking, and plenty of evidence says Consciousness is separable and survives clinical death. Nothing exists till observed, even hawking got to that in the end.how did consciousness evolve? Without consciousness you have no theory of life,


Coming to which

3/ where do the laws that guide your process come from?
Even Feynman admits he has no idea what gravity is or where it came from.
Liebniz was rude to Newton because couldn’t answer what gravity is. Only what it does . Liebniz missed the obvious . Science only answers what things normally do. It can’t say why. if you were a student of science philosoohy you would see the problem assuming laws produced life As explanation of life.

So if you want to say life came from evolution ( or me to answer again)
then answer the basics 1/ and 2/.

You cannot.
They are all tied up with 3/ you have a big heap of reading, I will let you get on with it.

BUT
I only entered the thread to ask why believers in Scientism and life only from evolution think they can be rude to others ? it is the rudeness that bothers me.

Believe what you will. But don’t pretend you know where life came from. Or there is an audit trail to life,
You believe m and that is all. others differ. At least my beliefs have some scientific evidence!

You have no evidence for the process to the current cell.
 
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Mountainmike

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And I, for one, do not ever intend to challenge sjastro regarding mathematics.
Challenge everyone. He’s not the only mathematician here.
he doesn’t seem to get energy balance.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Darwin evolutin I’d like saying “ I can get closer to the moon by walking up this hill” then concluding
therefore I can get to the Moon by walking up hill, see the problem?
Extrapolating a small Observation assuming all else follows?

When you have to create a strawman argument like this to try and claim that Darwinian evolution is wrong, then it really throws into major doubt anything you say before or after.
 
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childeye 2

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Try using a capital letter when typing surnames.
So Feynman believed consciousness was primary and matter secondary, lets put it to the test using his path integral formulation in QM.

Being the self professed phenomenal genius as you keep on reminding us I don't have to explain to you according to Feynman a particle travelling from "here" to "there" can take on an infinite number of pathways.

According to classical physics based on LaGrangian mechanics a particle with classical action S is defined as:

View attachment 376137

Feynman extended this idea for a path integral K based on summing all possible pathways Dq(t) according to the equation:

View attachment 376139

Being the genius that you are, you would instantly recognize a small change in the path results in a large change in the action S, which causes the phase of exp(iS/h) to change rapidly.

What do you think happens when you sum pathways that are out of phase, they destructively interfere with each other and cancel out.
The classical pathway occurs where δS = 0 which corresponds to q₃(t) in the diagram. Small variations in S occur near this classical pathway where phases change slowly and add constructively producing the most likely pathways a particle will take.

Consciousness plays no role in which pathway a particle decides to take (like in the double slit experiment for electrons), it is decided by the mathematics.
Math describes the pattern, but it doesn’t explain why the pattern exists. When you say, ‘the math decides', you’re treating a description as a cause. Did you mean that, or were you just speaking loosely?
 
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The Barbarian

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Challenge everyone. He’s not the only mathematician here.
He's more competent than I am. which is what matters.
he doesn’t seem to get energy balance.
I don't see that. Tell me about "energy balance." And BTW, you still haven't answered my question. Which of the 4 points of Darwin's theory have been refuted? Show us your evidence.
 
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sjastro

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Challenge everyone. He’s not the only mathematician here.
he doesn’t seem to get energy balance.
You are still on about this stupid idiotic nonsense about windmills causing global climate change and the downstream effects being persistent.

Here is a fluid mechanics exam question on the very subject you know nothing about.
OK genius answer the question instead of the ongoing dumb response of me not understanding energy balance.

Question.png
 
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