OPINION The Bible forbids using icons in worship: Religious art vs. religious icon

Michie said:

In recent years, high-profile Evangelicals — including theologians, radio hosts, and social media influencers — have been converting to Eastern Orthodoxy: Hank Hanegraaff (“The Bible Answer Man”), Rod Dreher, “Pastor Ben,” James Bernstein (co-founder of “Jews for Jesus”), and many others. They all claim that Eastern Orthodoxy reflects the unchanged teachings of the early Church. There’s just one problem with that claim: it’s verifiably false.

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Interesting

Michie said:

Worshippers who use icons claim that they are not really worshipping them, only venerating them.

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Almost all Chrisitans today would say they hold the Bible "in high regard", "with respect". But they do not bow before it or talk to it.

does that satisfy your criteria for "venerate'"?

Michie said:

Some even renumber the commandments so that the second is hidden behind the first.

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"renumber" as compared to what?

Prior to any Christian there was the numbering of the TEN Commandments and there was the content of the Hebrew Bible consisting of the same text as the Hebrew Bible today as it maps to our 39 books of the OT.

"renumbering" or "changing" has to be with reference to the earlier version.

Michie said:

But they are, in fact, doing exactly what the second commandment describes and forbids. Changing the name of what they are doing and claiming that excuses them is no more convincing than calling adultery “love making” and thinking that makes it okay. The core prohibition of the second commandment is not about an attitude toward the image or what the image is of (e.g., Christ or a saint), but about what is done with it. “You shall not bow down to them or serve them.” To “serve them” suggests performing acts of worship.

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Hindus also argue that they are not worshiping their images, but rather what the image represents.

Michie said:

This is why the intricate theological debate over the distinction between worship (latria) and mere veneration (dulia) is moot. The commandment forbids a particular use of the image: making it a focal point of prayer or adoration, bowing before it, or using it as a tool in religious devotion. When an image is used this way, it becomes an icon, and the second commandment explicitly forbids it.

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IS it your statement that the Catholic church has no instances of bowing before an Image in worship?

John B. Carpenter said:

In recent years, high-profile Evangelicals — including theologians, radio hosts, and social media influencers — have been converting to Eastern Orthodoxy: Hank Hanegraaff (“The Bible Answer Man”), Rod Dreher, “Pastor Ben,” James Bernstein (co-founder of “Jews for Jesus”), and many others.

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This is a good thing, and reflects my own journey to Eastern Orthodoxy from Evangelical Protestantism.

John B. Carpenter said:

They all claim that Eastern Orthodoxy reflects the unchanged teachings of the early Church.

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Which is the Incarnation. God became man.

John B. Carpenter said:

There’s just one problem with that claim: it’s verifiably false.

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In his opinion.

It continues to elude me why a Catholic is promoting anti-Catholic articles.

Michie said:

“You shall not bow down to them or serve them.” To “serve them” suggests performing acts of worship.

This is why the intricate theological debate over the distinction between worship (latria) and mere veneration (dulia) is moot. The commandment forbids a particular use of the image: making it a focal point of prayer or adoration, bowing before it, or using it as a tool in religious devotion. When an image is used this way, it becomes an icon, and the second commandment explicitly forbids it.

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The distinction between worship (a better word to use would be adoration) and veneration is important because if what's prohibited is adoration, but we're not adoring icons, then we're not doing what's prohibited. It's worth noting that his interpretation would make things like crosses in church prohibited as well.

It’s crucial to differentiate between religious art (decorations, stained glass) and a religious icon.
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This distinction is key when iconodules (supporters of icons) point to images allowed in the Old Testament, such as the cherubim over the Ark of the Covenant or the bronze serpent Moses made (Numbers 21). These were symbolic images or decorations, but they were never used in worship. The cherubim were not bowed to, and the bronze serpent was destroyed by King Hezekiah the moment it was turned into an icon (2 Kings 18:4).

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Carpenter ignores that the commandment against images doesn't only prohibit "bowing down" and "serving them," but it actually forbids even making them: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." So if icons are forbidden, then even artistic depictions of cherubim or snakes are forbidden.

The discovery of early Christian art in catacombs or churches, therefore, does not automatically imply the discovery of early Christian iconography. Art for viewing is not the same as an image used for veneration.

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One could just as easily argue against Carpenter using his own words: "the intricate theological debate over the distinction between artistic and devotional use is moot. The commandment forbids making images. When an image is made of a martyr, it's an image of something 'in the earth beneath,' and the second commandment explicitly forbids it."

This is a serious problem for iconoclasts: their argument proves too much. Even if they themselves strictly hold to "four bare walls and a sermon," they've made God contradict Himself in the examples of the images on the Ark of the Covenant and the bronze serpent. And let's be honest, the vast majority of Protestants who point fingers at Orthodox Christians and say "idolater" have images of the Cross in their churches and on their Bibles, if not full-on Nativity scenes around Christmas.