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How old was Mary when she gave birth to Christ?

The Righterzpen

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But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother. - Galatians 1:19

See what great friends he was with Peter especially; on his account he left his home, and with him he tarried. This I frequently repeat, and desire you to remember, that no one, when he hears what this Apostle seems to have spoken against Peter, may conceive a suspicion of him. He premises this, that when he says, I resisted Peter, no one may suppose that these words imply enmity and contention; for he honored and loved his person more than all and took this journey for his sake only, not for any of the others. But other of the Apostles saw I none, save James. I saw him merely, I did not learn from him, he means. But observe how honorably he mentions him, he says not James merely, but adds this illustrious title, so free is he from all envy. Had he only wished to point out whom he meant, he might have shown this by another appellation, and called him the son of Cleophas, as the Evangelist does. But as he considered that he had a share in the august titles of the Apostles, he exalts himself by honoring James; and this he does by calling him the Lord's brother, although he was not by birth His brother, but only so reputed. Yet this did not deter him from giving the title; and in many other instances he displays towards all the Apostles that noble disposition, which beseemed him.

- John Chrysostom


Hmm, who to believe, a Church Father from the 5th century of some self proclaimed biblical scholar on this forum.
Why is this church father not quoting Matthew 13:55-57 or Mark 6:2-4?

Of whom on both chapters; are named James, Jose, Simon and Juda.
Then Jude 1:1 states again that Jude is the brother of James; whom Galatians 1:19 states is "..the Lord's brother". Apparently James and Jude became believers.

Luke 2:7 is the passage about "brought forth her first born son...'

Based on Scripture, the Church has always taught Mary was ever Virgin.

Humm.... let's take a look at Matthew 1:24-25:
Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

What do you suppose this verse means? (Think context; guy gets married, wife already pregnant. (An angel tells him why.) yet he "...knew her not till.... ")

Hint: Mary was not an "ever Virgin".

Humm,, what to believe, a church father or Scripture!
 
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concretecamper

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Why is this church father not quoting Matthew 13:55-57 or Mark 6:2-4?

Of whom on both chapters; are named James, Jose, Simon and Juda.
Then Jude 1:1 states again that Jude is the brother of James; whom Galatians 1:19 states is "..the Lord's brother". Apparently James and Jude became believers.

Luke 2:7 is the passage about "brought forth her first born son...'



Humm.... let's take a look at Matthew 1:24-25:
Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

What do you suppose this verse means? (Think context; guy gets married, wife already pregnant. (An angel tells him why.) yet he "...knew her not till.... ")

Hint: Mary was not an "ever Virgin".

Humm,, what to believe, a church father or Scripture!
I will believe the Church's interpretation of Scripture, it's interpretation for close to 2,000 years. And it is that Mary had no other children and was ever Virgin. You follow the new fangled idea of today. I'll stick with the truth.
 
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The Righterzpen

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I will believe the Church's interpretation of Scripture, it's interpretation for close to 2,000 years. And it is that Mary had no other children and was ever Virgin. You follow the new fangled idea of today. I'll stick with the truth.
The "Church's" interpretation of Scripture contradicts what Scripture actually says. I've demonstrated that beyond a reasonable doubt and you know that. But you are free to follow your fangled cognitive dissonance. I'll stick with the truth!
 
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David Lamb

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You are also trying to make an argument from silence; as Scripture never states Joseph had children from a prior marriage!

(And why the cited early Christian writers didn't regard these Scriptures; doesn't make your argument either. Only thing it proves is either their ignorance of Scripture, or their willful twisting of Scripture they knew was part of the canon.)

Where were these alleged other children of Joseph's when Christ was born? Were they all adults at the point Jesus was born? If they were adults at Christ's birth; then how do they end up as members of the household later on? And if they were children; would not Joseph have taken them to Egypt when they fled Herod?

Yet, as you point out; these siblings are recorded as interacting with Christ in the gospels. And obviously they were all adults there. Jesus was 6 months shy of 40 years old when he died. So.... the siblings are all what.... Mary's age or older? That makes even less sense; particularly considering two of the brothers are named well into the writhing of the epistles.

Thus it would be illogical to conclude they would have been decades older than Jesus. And what kind of provider would Joseph have been if he'd abandon his former children when they went to Egypt?

What makes the most sense in the entire context of the information we have from Scripture?
I agree. Not only does Scripture not mention that Joseph had children from a previous marriage, it doesn't even mention such a previous marriage. The only thing I was unsure about in your post was the statement that Jesus was almost 40 when He was crucified. I thought that He was 30 when He began His public ministry, which lasted about 3 years, so He would have been 33.
 
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prodromos

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Luke 2:7 is the passage about "brought forth her first born son...'
First born refers to the offspring that opened the mother's womb. It does not imply there are subsequent offspring. An only child is also a first born.
Numbers 3:40
And the Lord said to Moses, “Number all the first-born males of the people of Israel, from a month old and upward, taking their number by names.​
How many month old babies have younger siblings?

Humm.... let's take a look at Matthew 1:24-25:
Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

What do you suppose this verse means? (Think context; guy gets married, wife already pregnant. (An angel tells him why.) yet he "...knew her not till.... ")
Until, till, unto, whichever word has been used to translate "εως", does not require a change of condition. If you insist that it does then you get the following:

2 Samuel 6:23
And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child till the day of her death.​
Therefore Michal started having children after she died.

Matthew 28:20 Jesus tell His disciples He will be with them until the end of the age. Therefore at the end of the age He will abandon them.

All Matthew 1:25 is telling us is that Jesus was not conceived from Joseph.

Hint: Mary was not an "ever Virgin".
That isn't consistent with much of the Gospels. If Jesus is the eldest of several children then after the death of Joseph He has authority in the household. His brothers do not treat Him as such and try to control and direct Him, like older siblings of a celebrity little brother. They did not respect Him as they would have if they had grown up with Him as their older brother
Humm,, what to believe, a church father or Scripture!
What to believe, the interpretation of Scripture given by a man whose life was full of the fruits of the Holy Spirit, or the interpretation of Scripture given by some random dude on the internet?
 
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The Righterzpen

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I agree. Not only does Scripture not mention that Joseph had children from a previous marriage, it doesn't even mention such a previous marriage. The only thing I was unsure about in your post was the statement that Jesus was almost 40 when He was crucified. I thought that He was 30 when He began His public ministry, which lasted about 3 years, so He would have been 33.
Jesus birth:
The age of Jesus comes from part historical information of what year Heard the Great died (He died in February of 4 BC.) and the age of Jesus when the Magi came. (Jesus was approximately two years old.) So this sets the birth of Christ back to at least 6 BC. And given that it took the Magi two years to get to Jerusalem; the most probable year of Jesus's birth would have been 7 BC. (Probably during the feast of tabernacles in the fall; for "I shall tabernacle among you". = I.E. the incarnation.)

We know John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus. Reconstructed Herod's temple was "up and functioning" in 9 BC. The first Passover of the newly constructed temple would have been in 8 BC. John's father was a priest "in the course of Abia" (Luke 1:8) which would have been the spring; (probably passover considering there were a lot of people present). This was also the first time God had spoken since the completion of the Old Testament; some 400 years(ish) earlier. John's father had his angel visit during his priest duties. And those duties would have ended by summer time. He goes back home; Elizabeth conceives John. (late summer early fall). Which John would have been born close to Passover of the following year and Jesus would have been born in the fall. Which would have been 7 BC.

It seems from Scripture, that the Magi were probably more than one group who converged on Jerusalem at the same time. It had been two years since they "saw the star in the east"; (Matthew 2:9) yet another passage says they "came from the east". (Matthew 2:1) So one group "sees the star in the east" (which means they would have been traveling from the west of Bethlehem) and the other says they "came from the east". Thus my hypothesis is that there was Magi coming from Africa, Magi coming from Asia (India or even closer to China) and possibly even Magi coming from Europe. And these were caravans of people. (Not just 3 guys on a camel) ^_^ And they would have been traveling with wives and kids and servants and soldiers etc. Matthew 2:3 says that Herod is troubled and all of Jerusalem with him. So these caravans that showed up in Jerusalem; the whole city would have known.

Thus the birth of Christ was a big deal.

Jesus death:
Now fast forward to the end of Jesus's life. Pinpointing the year he died. We got several things; both of secular records and what possible years Passover fell from a Thursday into Friday.

Secular records: Here's where it gets interesting! John the Baptist appears in the wilderness at the commencement of the 15th year of Tiberius's reign. (Luke 3:1) That would have been the summer of 29 AD. Now two very interesting things happened in the summer of 29 AD. and the Romans record these events.

One was a total solar eclipse that involved the entire Meditation area. It was witnessed in Rome, as well as in Judea. The Romans looked at eclipses as omens of the reign of the emperor. Now they may have been good omens or bad omens and since Tiberius had been a successful and popular emperor; they saw this eclipse as the "gods" looking favorably on Tiberius's reign. The Romans believed that if they did not offend anyones god, that helped to preserve the power of the empire. So they saw this as a positive omen.

Secondly, there was an earthquake in Turkey that affected Judea. This happened at the same time as the eclipse! (It was a big earthquake; like estimated 7 to 8 on the Richtor Scale.) It damaged the temple complex and caused one of the doors in the temple to get stuck open. The temple had two large doors and beyond them was the menorah, the table of shew bread and then the holy of holies. The holy of holies was covered by curtains. Called "the veil". (Keep that in the back of your mind because it's important for being able to figure out where Golgotha was.)

This earthquake also damaged the judgement hall of the Sanhedrin; thus where the trial of Jesus should have been held, wasn't held there. It ended up being held at the house of the high priest instead of the judgement hall of the Sanhedrin; because it was deemed too damaged to be used. The judgement hall was to be next to the temple; so when they had to decide any important matter; God would be present. (There are instructions to this in Leviticus or Deuteronomy; but I'm not sure where at the moment.)

So the judgement hall of the Sanhedrin was damaged; and there was a walkway above the wall, somewhere in that area that also was damaged; and this walkway was attached to the tower of Siloam which collapsed at some point and killed a bunch of people. (This is recorded in Luke 13:1-5.) This probably happened the year before Jesus was crucified. It also says Pilate sent soldiers into the temple and killed several Galileans "who's blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifice".

Now what had happened that Pilate had sent soldiers into the temple? That wasn't a common thing. The Romans didn't generally interfere with the religious practices of the people in the empire; unless there was a believed justification for doing so. And the most probable reason Pilate did this, was because these Galileans were engaging in a ritual human sacrifice. Human sacrifice had been outlawed in the Roman empire about 90 BC.

Now who are these Galileans and why are they performing this human sacrifice? The most likely answer to that comes out of Greek history. This goes back to Maccabees. According to the Jewish record of the Maccabean revolt; this was because the Greek king was prohibiting animal sacrifices and had shut down the temple. (This is true; this did happen. For about 15 years the Seclud empire had outlawed sacrifices in the Jewish temple.) But the reason that King Antiochus IV had done so (according to Greek historians) was because he'd come across a captive Greek merchant in the temple; who'd been told by his captors, that he was to be human sacrifice of a vow the Jews had made to "hate the Greeks forever". This was the legend (Jews participating in human sacrifices. Which the Bible itself does say they did.) past through Greek historians. Although the archeological records that have been found from that era, simply say the army of the Seclud empire intervened in civil unrest that was a conflict between different sects of Judaism. This was the time of the emerging sects between Sadducees and Pharisees. So, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle of all these legends and accounts.

Now I give you this info because it becomes important when we get to Pilate and Jesus's crucifixion. Pilate was "on probation" from Rome for a revolt he put down happening in Samaria a year or so before the crucifixion. That revolt may have been connected to this incident in the temple, where one of the rioters could have been Barabbas, who was demanded to be released of the people instead of Jesus. So, background information of the conflict between the Jewish leadership and Pilate.

Later on (35 or 36 AD) Pilate was called back to Rome. Roman records don't state specifically why; but civil unrest in Judea was escalating and this recall may have had something to do with the crucifixion of Jesus and the commencement of the spread of Christianity through the empire. Pilate disappears from the record of secular history at this point. He is never recorded to have stood before Tiberius because Tiberius died in 37 AD. Some legends say Pilate committed suicide; but the eastern church states that Pilate was banished to Patmos and had become a Christian.

So the earthquake and the eclipse happened in summer of 29 AD. We know this for sure because the Romans minted a coin that came out in early 30 AD. On the front of this coin had Tiberius with the eclipsing sun behind him and on the back of the coin, was an image of the temple in Jerusalem.

Now, the book of Luke tells us that in the commencement of the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar, John appears in the wilderness. (Luke 3:1) We know that's summer / fall of 29 AD. The Feast of Trumpets starts usually in September or October; which is the start of the Jewish secular year.

I have come to the conclusion that at least part of the prophetic fulfillment of the Feast of Trumpets is connected to Jesus's baptism. This makes the most sense in the context of the leaders coming to see John out in the Jordan river compelled by these cosmic events (eclipse and earthquake). They all knew back when Herod the Great died that these caravans of people had come looking for "the king of Isreal". Herod tried to kill Jesus. They'd fled to Egypt. Some 12 years later this kid shows up in the temple; whom his parents had to back track and go get! So they knew the Messiah had been born and things were happening that were fulfillment of Scripture. Thus the interest to go see John baptizing in the wilderness.

A lot of people conclude that the Feast of Trumpets is the end of time. There may be some truth to this also; as "the last trump" stated in Corinthians is the final resurrection of the dead. So, I don't know. There could be more than one fulfillment?

So this puts the beginning of Jesus's ministry in 30 AD.
3.5 (ish) years later; Passover of 33 AD Jesus is crucified.
Thus If he was born in the fall of 7 BC and died in the spring of 33 AD he would have been 6 months shy of turning 40 years old.

Now the verse in Luke 3:23 that says Jesus was "about 30 years old". A more accurate rendering of this would be "about the middle of 30's". It's a weird numeric rendering which means "half of" or "middle of" a given number. And we know obviously Jesus wasn't 15 when he started preaching. So the "middle" or "half of" would be more properly translated "middle 30's". Which makes sense he would have been about 36 years old.

Now, the days of the week? We need a year the crucifixion would have happened during Pilate's governorship that puts Passover on a Thursday at sundown into Friday at sundown. And the only year that fits that criteria is 33 AD. Thus we can pretty well pin down that's the year Jesus died.

Pilate tried really hard to NOT put Jesus to death, and the political implications for Pilate probably played a role in this. I do believe Pilate genuinely understood Jesus to be innocent of any reason Rome would have to execute him. The Jewish leadership's first complaint was that Jesus had committed blasphemy by stating he's the Son of God. (They full well knew he was their Messiah.) But it wasn't a crime in the Roman empire to claim to be God. And this is why Pilate told them Jesus had done nothing worthy of death. Also though, (besides the dreams of Pilate's wife) I'm sure Pilate had heard the "rumors" that this guy could heal the sick and raise the dead. And Scripture says that Pilate knew that they'd brought Jesus to him out of their envy. (Matthew 27:18, Mark 15:10)

Now.... finally in conclusion:
Back to the earthquake and the door of the temple that got stuck open; which clues us to the location of Golgotha. Scripture tells us that the soldiers at the site of the crucifixion actually witnessed the veil of the temple being torn; (which was followed by another earthquake)! (Matthew 27:51-54; also recorded in Mark 15:39) Thus in order for them to actually see the veil in the temple being torn; they would have had to be facing the temple, in a location where they could see through the door that was stuck open. Which means Golgotha was on the Mt. of Olives probably somewhere in the vicinity of the Red Heifer Alter.

There's several really interesting passages that indicate that the Roman soldiers who crucified Jesus, knew more about Jewish prophecy than we would suspect they would. Keeping in mind this legion had been "stationed" in this area for a decade before Jesus was crucified. And the soldiers from this legion would have been present in the area of the temple when Jesus performed these various healings and other miracles. We even have records in Scripture of centurions and soldiers coming to Jesus asking instructions and for servants and family members to be healed.

Now, last little tidbit of information I'll throw out here. "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth":

It's becoming (somewhat) popular for people to claim Jesus was crucified on Wednesday (to get to 3 days and 3 nights - assuming "heart of the earth" means "in the grave". Others say "one part of a day counted as a day". Seeing how clearly Jesus was not in the tomb 3 full days and 3 full nights. (i.e. he didn't rise from the dead on Tuesday!) He did rise on Sunday and the Greek in the New Testament regarding resurrection day and day of church gathering, is called (a) "Sabbath". (But that's a whole other rabbit hole to go down; and this response is long enough as it is.)

The "3 days and 3 night in the heart of the earth" though is the time span between Jesus last public ministry event when he left the temple Tuesday evening and his death on Friday before sundown. That's exactly 3 (three) 24 hour periods and that span of time entails when the atonement took place.

At the point Jesus died; the payment for sin was complete. He says "it is finished" and he dies and ascends to heaven. We pick this up in Revelation 5 when he (as a disembodied soul) is standing before the throne of the Father as "the lamb slain" to open the seals. Sunday morning (probably about 3 AM) his soul (and 2nd person of the Trinity divine nature) descends back to earth, is reunited with his flesh and rises from the dead. For the last enemy to be destroyed is death. (1 Corinthians 15:26) That is the final indicator to the rest of us that one day this material cosmos will also be raised from corruption. "For if Christ be not raised; you are yet in your sins." (1 Corinthians 15:17)

Now aint that wild!
 
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The Righterzpen

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First born refers to the offspring that opened the mother's womb. It does not imply there are subsequent offspring. An only child is also a first born.
Yet Scripture never says that Jesus was "the only born" of Mary. The Holy Spirit (who is the ultimate Author of Scripture) could have certainly avoided all ambiguity by simply wording it that Christ was the "only born" of Mary. But that isn't what the passage says either. It says "first born son".

Which comparing this to passages later in Scripture; which name the members of his nuclear family; (states "his mother.... brothers (gives for male names) and sisters....") by context are implied to be other children of Mary and Joseph.
Until, till, unto, whichever word has been used to translate "εως", does not require a change of condition. If you insist that it does then you get the following:
Your problem here though isn't the word "till"; it's the word "knew". "and he (Joseph) KNEW her not till she'd brought forth her first born son..."

The context of the passage is marriage and child birth. It's the same language as "Adam knew Eve and she conceived a son..." Scripture says Christ is born of a virgin but nowhere in Scripture does it say that virgin remained a virgin. As Scripture declares Joseph "KNEW" her after she gave birth to Christ!

Which means that they..... engaged in behavior that eventually lead to other children.

If Mary were intended by God to be a perpetual virgin; then why would she ever get married? The first command having been given to all creation was "be fruitful and multiply"; which was given after Eve was created from Adam's side. And the reason stated for a man leaving his mother and a woman leaving her home is that they "become one flesh". (Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:4-6) And the natural consequence thereof is the production of children.

Jesus states in Luke 20:34-37 that purpose of marriage is because of death. Humanity was divided into male and female on account of the need to reproduce because sin brought death. Thus the elect that Jesus atoned for; need to be born into this world. And from the prerogative of God's redemption plan; this is the reason for marriage.

So that it says Joseph "knew her not until after she'd brought forth her first born son"; "until" doesn't negate the fact that Joseph still "knew" her. And the evidence of that is that we see in subsequent Scripture that Jesus had siblings.

AND the fact that Mary and Joseph had children fulfilled both the first command to "be fruitful and multiply"; as well as the redemptive injunction that the elect be born. As in the epistles; two of Jesus's "step brothers" are named as among the redeemed.
That isn't consistent with much of the Gospels. If Jesus is the eldest of several children then after the death of Joseph He has authority in the household. His brothers do not treat Him as such and try to control and direct Him, like older siblings of a celebrity little brother. They did not respect Him as they would have if they had grown up with Him as their older brother
And Jesus didn't just have authority in the household at the point Joseph died; he had the full financial responsibility to provide for the rest of the family. (Thus rest assured, for any of us struggling through the pressures of raising and providing for a family; Jesus understands. He too parented children that he was also financially responsible for.)

Jesus was probably somewhere between 17 and 20 when Joseph died. Jesus himself would have been "marriage eligible" at 20. But in order to be prepared to be socially and financially responsible for this family; Jesus had to be old enough to be able to run the family business. And Joseph had to be around long enough for the youngest sibling to be conceived.

We see in the beginning of the gospels where Mary is "in attendance" at a wedding in Canna of Galilee. That Greek phrase "in attendance" doesn't mean that she was merely invited. She was partially responsible for hosting the wedding. And the reason for that was, because the bride would have been Jesus youngest sister. This is why Mary says to Jesus: "Son, the groom's family is out of wine". And Jesus's response is: "Mom, what does that have anything to do with me?" Jesus had already fulfilled his financial responsibility to this wedding. Apparently, wine was the groom's family responsibility to the wedding, not the bride's. But Mary tells the servants: "Just do what he tells you." (Regarding turning the water into wine.) Interestingly though, apparently Mary knew Jesus could do stuff like this.

This event happens just before Jesus begins his public ministry. He's about 36 years old and he has fulfilled his family obligation to his siblings. Of which the math adds up. Six other known children. The youngest sister is 17 or 18 at marriage; would mean Jesus was 17 or 18 when Joseph died. 18+18 = 36

Now we have no information on how Jesus's siblings interpreted Jesus's parenting skills; because the "disrespect" that you cite, wasn't because of lack of moral character upon Jesus's part to fulfill the duties that had been placed upon him. Which included raising the siblings. (As we see Mary didn't get married again.)

The conflict cited by Jesus is that: "A prophet isn't without honor except in his own town and with his own family." They came "because of the crowds" when he was preaching in the local synagogue because it says "they" believed "he was out of his mind." Keep in mind; Jesus is getting up in the local synagogue and saying "Hey, family, friends and neighbors; guess what! I'm the long awaited Messiah of Israel!"

Scripture says they came to try and bring him home (because they thought he wasn't psychologically well and they were concerned for his welfare.) (Mark 3:20-33)

But let's play "devils advocate" here a minute and assume what you're saying is correct. Jesus is an only child and it's just him and Mary. So..... who are these people that are coming with his mom to get him? If they were really children of Joseph's from a former marriage and now all being adults; why would they be coming to retrieve Jesus? (He's not their responsibility at this point!) And why would they be called "brothers and sisters" if Jesus isn't Joseph's child and they aren't Mary's children?

And assuming they were old enough to take care of themselves when Jesus was born; seeing how there's no indication that Joseph took any of them to Egypt with them; and if they were Joseph's children from a former marriage; there were 6 of them. Assuming Joseph's former wife would have died; and the "age gap" between kids born in situations of possible food scarcity is two to three years. (Babies in that culture were weened at 3 years old - which breastfeeding tends to delay subsequent pregnancies.) So at 2 to 3 year age gaps; Joseph's "oldest child" at Jesus's birth was a minimum of 15 years old. So... what then did Joseph's oldest take care of all their siblings? And if that's the case; how'd they all end up back in Joseph and Mary's household after coming back from Egypt?

Or... maybe they were all adults when Jesus was born; and if that's the case; the youngest would have been at least as old as Mary and if that's the case; how'd they all "end up" back in Joseph and Mary's household?
What to believe, the interpretation of Scripture given by a man whose life was full of the fruits of the Holy Spirit, or the interpretation of Scripture given by some random dude on the internet?
How do you know that I'm not actually the one "full of the fruits of the Holy Spirit" and the "5th century church father" isn't? You're making an assumption here of things you couldn't possibly know.

Thus, me thinks your best bet is to stick with what Scripture actually says!

(P.S. I'm a random dudette on the internet.)
 
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prodromos

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I don't have the time to respond to everything so I will be brief
Yet Scripture never says that Jesus was "the only born" of Mary. The Holy Spirit (who is the ultimate Author of Scripture) could have certainly avoided all ambiguity by simply wording it that Christ was the "only born" of Mary. But that isn't what the passage says either. It says "first born son".
"First born" is a supremely important concept in Hebrew culture, you should look it up. It should answer your question why that term was used and not "only born".
The Church that Christ established, who under the guidance and inspiration of the Holy Spirit produced the New Testament Scriptures, understood perfectly what was meant so there was no ambiguity
Which comparing this to passages later in Scripture; that name the members of his nuclear family; (states "his mother.... brothers (gives for male names) and sisters...." are by context are implied to be other children of Mary and Joseph.
That is your assumption. None of them are referred to as children of Mary.
Your problem here though isn't the word "till"; it's the word "knew". "and he (Joseph) KNEW her not till she'd brought forth her first born son..."
No, it isn't a problem. The condition of "knew not" does not change with the "until". For example:

"The students worked quietly until the teacher returned",

does not require that the students ceased working quietly after the teacher returned. It simply describes the condition up to that point and offers no information about what occurred afterwards.
The context of the passage is marriage and child birth. It's the same language as "Adam knew Eve and she conceived a son..." Scripture says Christ is born of a virgin but nowhere in Scripture does it say that virgin remained a virgin. As Scripture declares Joseph "KNEW" her after she gave birth to Christ!

Which means that they..... engaged in behavior that eventually lead to other children.
This is all assumption by you. The text does not require it at all.
If Mary were intended by God to be a perpetual virgin; then why would she ever get married? The first command having been given to all creation was "be fruitful and multiply". And the reason stated for a man leaving his mother and a woman leaving her home is that they "become one flesh". And the natural consequence thereof is the production of children.
To provide a safe context for Jesus to be born and raised. As an unwed mother, Mary would potentially have been put to death.
So that it says Joseph "knew her not until after she'd brought forth her first born son"; "until" doesn't negate the fact that Joseph still "knew" her. And the evidence of that is that we see in subsequent Scripture that Jesus had siblings.
Any children Joseph had prior to his betrothal to Mary would be considered brothers and sisters of Jesus. Hebrew culture has no concept of step-siblings.
And Jesus didn't just have authority in the household at the point Joseph died; he had the full financial responsibility to provide for the rest of the family. Jesus was probably somewhere between 17 and 20 when Joseph died. Jesus himself would have been "marriage eligible" at 20. But in order to be financially responsible for this family; Jesus had to be old enough to be able to run the family business. And Joseph had to be around long enough for the youngest sibling to be conceived.
Sorry, but this does not address anything I said.
We see in the beginning of the gospels where Mary is "in attendance" at a wedding in Canna of Galilee. That Greek phrase "in attendance" doesn't mean that she was merely invited. She was partially responsible for hosting the wedding.
That is complete fabrication. The Greek simply says she was there.
And the reason for that was, because the bride would have been Jesus youngest sister.
Another complete fabrication. John's Gospel says that "Jesus was also invited". If Jesus was the eldest brother of the bride then His presence would have been mandatory, especially since their father Joseph is presumably no longer around.
is is why Mary says to Jesus: "Son, the groom's family is out of wine". And Jesus's response is: "Mom, what does that have anything to do with me?" Jesus had already fulfilled his financial responsibility to this wedding.
Yeah nah. Jesus said, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” This isn't about financial burden, this is about Him being revealed as Messiah and the beginning of His ministry.
Now we have no information on how Jesus's siblings interpreted Jesus's parenting skills; because the "disrespect" that you cite wasn't because of lack of moral character upon Jesus's part to fulfill the duties that had been placed upon him. Which included raising the siblings. (As we see Mary didn't get married again.)
We know that Jesus has much wisdom, much love, much humility. I can't imagine anyone being a better big brother if they were His younger siblings. I have tremendous respect for my own older brother and he would not be a patch on Jesus.
The conflict cited by Jesus is that: "A prophet isn't without honor except in his own town and with his own family." They came to "bring him home" when he was preaching in the local synagogue because it says "they" believed "he was out of his mind." Keep in mind; Jesus is getting up in the local synagogue and saying "Hey, family, friends and neighbors; guess what! I'm the long awaited Messiah of Israel!"
If Jesus is the eldest then they have no place trying to do anything with Him.
Scripture says they came to try and bring him home (because they thought he wasn't psychologically well and they were concerned for his welfare.) (Mark 3:20-33)

But let's play "devils advocate" here a minute and assume what you're saying is correct. Jesus is an only child and it's just him and Mary.
So..... who are these people that are coming with his mom to get him? If they were really children of Joseph's from a former marriage and now all being adults; why would they be coming to retrieve Jesus. (He's not their responsibility at this point!)
If Jesus is the youngest, then the eldest brother would still feel responsible for him.
And assuming they were old enough to take care of themselves when Jesus was born; seeing how there's no indication that Joseph took any of them to Egypt with them; and if they were Joseph's children from a former marriage; there were 6 of them. Assuming Joseph's former wife would have died; and the "age gap" between kids born in situations of food scarcity is two to three years. (Babies in that culture were weened at 3 years old - which breastfeeding tends to delay subsequent pregnancies.) So at 2 to 3 year age gaps; Joseph's "oldest child" at Jesus's birth was a minimum of 15 years old.
You've made a lot of assumptions.
So... what then did Joseph's oldest take care of all their siblings? And if that's the case; how'd they all end up back in Joseph and Mary's household after coming back from Egypt?
They weren't in Joseph and Mary's household. Where did you get the from?
Or... maybe they were all adults when Jesus was born; and if that's the case; the youngest would have been at least as old as Mary and if that's the case; how'd they all "end up" back in Joseph and Mary's household?
Again, they didn't.
How do you know that I'm not actually the one "full of the fruits of the Holy Spirit" and the "5th century church father" isn't? You're making an assumption here of things you couldn't possibly know.
Your interpretation of Scripture is contrary to what centuries of Christians who were led by the Holy Spirit believed.
Thus, me thinks your best bet is to stick with what Scripture actually says!
In it's proper context.
(P.S. I'm a random dudette on the internet.)
My apologies, I should have looked at your profile.
 
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concretecamper

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I don't have the time to respond to everything so I will be brief

"First born" is a supremely important concept in Hebrew culture, you should look it up. It should answer your question why that term was used and not "only born".
The Church that Christ established, who under the guidance and inspiration of the Holy Spirit produced the New Testament Scriptures, understood perfectly what was meant so there was no ambiguity

That is your assumption. None of them are referred to as children of Mary.

No, it isn't a problem. The condition of "knew not" does not change with the "until". For example:

"The students worked quietly until the teacher returned",

does not require that the students ceased working quietly after the teacher returned. It simply describes the condition up to that point and offers no information about what occurred afterwards.

This is all assumption by you. The text does not require it at all.

To provide a safe context for Jesus to be born and raised. As an unwed mother, Mary would potentially have been put to death.

Any children Joseph had prior to his betrothal to Mary would be considered brothers and sisters of Jesus. Hebrew culture has no concept of step-siblings.

Sorry, but this does not address anything I said.

That is complete fabrication. The Greek simply says she was there.

Another complete fabrication. John's Gospel says that "Jesus was also invited". If Jesus was the eldest brother of the bride then His presence would have been mandatory, especially since their father Joseph is presumably no longer around.

Yeah nah. Jesus said, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” This isn't about financial burden, this is about Him being revealed as Messiah and the beginning of His ministry.

We know that Jesus has much wisdom, much love, much humility. I can't imagine anyone being a better big brother if they were His younger siblings. I have tremendous respect for my own older brother and he would not be a patch on Jesus.

If Jesus is the eldest then they have no place trying to do anything with Him.

If Jesus is the youngest, then the eldest brother would still feel responsible for him.

You've made a lot of assumptions.

They weren't in Joseph and Mary's household. Where did you get the from?

Again, they didn't.

Your interpretation of Scripture is contrary to what centuries of Christians who were led by the Holy Spirit believed.

In it's proper context.

My apologies, I should have looked at your profile.
You have much more patience than I
 
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The Righterzpen

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"First born" is a supremely important concept in Hebrew culture, you should look it up. It should answer your question why that term was used and not "only born".
The Church that Christ established, who under the guidance and inspiration of the Holy Spirit produced the New Testament Scriptures, understood perfectly what was meant so there was no ambiguity
Why does the church's interpretation contradict Scripture then?
That is your assumption. None of them are referred to as children of Mary.
You agree that Mary gave birth to Jesus; correct? Then why does the passage refer to the other children as HIS brothers and sisters? You can't get away from that; the passage clearly states that they are JESUS'S brothers and sisters. (Which by implication would mean that Mary is their mother.) So if they are not his brothers and sisters; why do the passages say they are? Why does the passage not say "the children of Joseph"?
No, it isn't a problem. The condition of "knew not" does not change with the "until". For example:

"The students worked quietly until the teacher returned",

does not require that the students ceased working quietly after the teacher returned. It simply describes the condition up to that point and offers no information about what occurred afterwards.
Ok, you're actually right here; your problem really is the word "until".

You have a grammar issue because the word "until" requires something happened after the teacher returned.
(You've created what's called an incomplete sentence.)
If you were using correct grammar it would say "The students worked quietly after the teacher returned."

The word (in both English and Greek) is a conjunction, preposition, adverb of continuance (of time or place). Event A doesn't happen until after event B happens. That is the grammatical definition of the use of the word "until" (or "till).

(Joseph) "...did not know her (event A) until after she brought forth her first born son (event B)".
But he still "knew" her!
Yeah nah. Jesus said, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” This isn't about financial burden, this is about Him being revealed as Messiah and the beginning of His ministry.
Yes, his answer to her was "my hour has not yet come". Yet it's understood that she had expectations of him to help the groom's family. And why would she have those expectations? Particularly if she knew he could do something? On top of this, he still hearkened to her request! And funny.... Verse 11 says that this actually was the beginning of miracles he did in Cana of Galilee "and manifest forth his glory and his disciples believed on him".
That is complete fabrication. The Greek simply says she was there.
Actually, this sentence implies a lot more than you think:

Here it is with all it's linguistic complexity:
And the third day there was coming to completion; a wedding in Cana of Galilee; which also the mother of Jesus remained continuously present.

(Why would she be continuously present for three whole days if she was "simply" "there"?)

You are welcome to study the grammar of the passage yourself:

And interestingly; so apparently were Jesus's brothers!
John 2:12
After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.

Note the mention of the two groupings of people besides Jesus and mom. Note the "brethren" are mentioned separate from the "disciples".
If Jesus is the eldest then they have no place trying to do anything with Him.
You state that you have tremendous respect for your older brother; so am I to assume that means you would not attempt to intervene if you thought he was sick or had lost his mind?
If Jesus is the youngest, then the eldest brother would still feel responsible for him.
But according to assumptions about Scripture that you are speaking from silence concerning: (the assumption that these siblings are Joseph's children from another marriage) they wouldn't bear ANY responsibility for Jesus or his mother; because they would not be related!
They weren't in Joseph and Mary's household. Where did you get the from?
So.... if you are correct and Joseph's children from another marriage were not part of Joseph and Mary's household; then... who are these "brothers - Simon, Jose, James and Juda and his sisters" that the subsequent passages in Scripture are talking about?

You're making less and less sense the further you try to support your position.
Your interpretation of Scripture is contrary to what centuries of Christians who were led by the Holy Spirit believed.
Aren't all Christians led by the Holy Spirit?
In it's proper context.
And the proper context of Scripture is:

What does the Holy Spirit tell us about how to interpret Scripture.
Scripture (written by the direction of the Holy Spirit) tells us to interpret it by comparing it to itself. (Isaiah 28:10, 2 Timothy 2:15)

Not by comparing it to what the "church" or some theologian 1500 years ago said!

Argue your points from Scripture alone!
 
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David Lamb

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Jesus birth:
The age of Jesus comes from part historical information of what year Heard the Great died (He died in February of 4 BC.) and the age of Jesus when the Magi came. (Jesus was approximately two years old.) So this sets the birth of Christ back to at least 6 BC. And given that it took the Magi two years to get to Jerusalem; the most probable year of Jesus's birth would have been 7 BC. (Probably during the feast of tabernacles in the fall; for "I shall tabernacle among you". = I.E. the incarnation.)
Thank you for the time and trouble you took over replying. Much appreciated.
 
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prodromos

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Why does the church's interpretation contradict Scripture then?
Why are you putting poison in your husband's tea?
You agree that Mary gave birth to Jesus; correct? Then why does the passage refer to the other children as HIS brothers and sisters? You can't get away from that; the passage clearly states that they are JESUS'S brothers and sisters. (Which by implication would mean that Mary is their mother.)
I already addressed that. Hebrew culture has no concept of step-siblings. (Luke 3:23, Luke 4:22, John 6:42) Jesus was supposed the son of Joseph, so any children of Joseph automatically are brothers and sisters of Jesus.
So if they are not his brothers and sisters; why do the passages say they are? Why does the passage not say "the children of Joseph"?
Joseph is no longer around and is not the subject, Jesus is. I've already made it clear that they are His brothers and sisters.
Ok, you're actually right here; your problem really is the word "until".

You have a grammar issue because the word "until" requires something happened after the teacher returned.
A.I. overview
In English grammar, the word "until" does not require a "change in condition" in the sense of a prescriptive grammatical rule; rather, it indicates the point in time when an action or state either ends or continues up to. It functions as a conjunction or preposition to define the endpoint of a duration
(You've created what's called an incomplete sentence.)
False. You are making stuff up again.
If you were using correct grammar it would say "The students worked quietly after the teacher returned."
No, I was describing the activity of the children prior to the teacher returning. How they acted after was not the subject of the example.
Yes, his answer to her was "my hour has not yet come". Yet it's understood that she had expectations of him to help the groom's family. And why would she have those expectations? Particularly if she knew he could do something? On top of this, he still hearkened to her request! And funny.... Verse 11 says that this actually was the beginning of miracles he did in Cana of Galilee "and manifest forth his glory and his disciples believed on him".
So you agree with me?
Actually, this sentence implies a lot more than you think:

Here it is with all it's linguistic complexity:
And the third day there was coming to completion; a wedding in Cana of Galilee; which also the mother of Jesus remained continuously present.
Lord preserve us from armchair linguists who think they can translate.
(Why would she be continuously present for three whole days if she was "simply" "there"?)
It's like "walking". The gerund makes the verb present continuous, but you would never write, "he was in the present, walking continuously", you would simply say, "he was walking".
This is why you leave translation to people who are qualified.
You are welcome to study the grammar of the passage yourself:
Thanks, but I lived in Greece for 12 years. I'm reasonably fluent. If I need to I can always ask my wife. She IS a certified translator and interpreter for Greek and English.
And interestingly; so apparently were Jesus's brothers!
John 2:12
After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.

Note the mention of the two groupings of people besides Jesus and mom. Note the "brethren" are mentioned separate from the "disciples".
I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
You state that you have tremendous respect for your older brother; so am I to assume that means you would not attempt to intervene if you thought he was sick or had lost his mind?
I would try to talk to him and let him explain the situation, as I, like Jesus' brothers, could be completely wrong.
But according to assumptions about Scripture that you are speaking from silence concerning: (the assumption that these siblings are Joseph's children from another marriage) they wouldn't bear ANY responsibility for Jesus or his mother; because they would not be related!
Mary and Joseph were betrothed. That makes everyone related. Do you understand so little of Hebrew culture?
So.... if you are correct and Joseph's children from another marriage were not part of Joseph and Mary's household; then... who are these "brothers - Simon, Jose, James and Juda and his sisters" that the subsequent passages in Scripture are talking about?
Joseph's adult children who now have households of their own. Do you have children who are married? Do they live in the same house as you?
You're making less and less sense the further you try to support your position.
Your inability to grasp simple concepts is not my problem.
Aren't all Christians led by the Holy Spirit?
If they were then there would be no division.
And the proper context of Scripture is:

What does the Holy Spirit tell us about how to interpret Scripture.
Scripture (written by the direction of the Holy Spirit) tells us to interpret it by comparing it to itself. (Isaiah 28:10, 2 Timothy 2:15)

Not by comparing it to what the "church" or some theologian 1500 years ago said!

Argue your points from Scripture alone!
I don't know why you reference Isaiah and Timothy as they don't say what you claim.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Why are you putting poison in your husband's tea?
:scratch: Not sure what this is in reference to? Jesus know's His mother was not a perpetual virgin.
I already addressed that. Hebrew culture has no concept of step-siblings. (Luke 3:23, Luke 4:22, John 6:42) Jesus was supposed the son of Joseph, so any children of Joseph automatically are brothers and sisters of Jesus.
So why doesn't Scripture then say "the supposed brothers and sisters of Jesus"? Clearly the Holy Spirit is capable of compelling the gospel writers to say "the supposed son of Joseph".
Joseph is no longer around and is not the subject, Jesus is. I've already made it clear that they are His brothers and sisters.
And Scripture is still clear that Joseph and Mary had children. (He still "knew" her.)
Thanks, but I lived in Greece for 12 years. I'm reasonably fluent. If I need to I can always ask my wife. She IS a certified translator and interpreter for Greek and English.
A.I. overview
In English grammar, the word "until" does not require a "change in condition" in the sense of a prescriptive grammatical rule; rather, it indicates the point in time when an action or state either ends or continues up to. It functions as a conjunction or preposition to define the endpoint of a duration
You state you are so fluent in Greek and English; yet seem unaware that what you quoted here of AI, says the exact opposite of what you're claiming it says. :scratch: (Maybe you need to ask your wife to translate the word "until" for you?)
No, I was describing the activity of the children prior to the teacher returning. How they acted after was not the subject of the example.
The word "until" implies that something changed. "It indicates the point in time when an action or state either ends, or continues up to."
"and he knew her not until she gave birth to her first born son." (Mary's pregnancy ended and Joseph didn't "know" her up to the point her pregnancy ended.) The use of the word until means there's a change at the point the state ends. The state that ended, was not only her being pregnant but also her being a virgin. She was a virgin "until" Joseph "knew" her.
Lord preserve us from armchair linguists who think they can translate.
Yes Lord preserve us from armchair linguists who think they can translate the word "until".
It's like "walking". The gerund makes the verb present continuous, but you would never write, "he was in the present, walking continuously", you would simply say, "he was walking".
This is why you leave translation to people who are qualified.
So you are admitting that for 3 days Mary was continuously present; as the Greek verb conveys.
I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
According to John 2:12, Jesus's brothers were also at this wedding. Mary, Jesus (and brothers) AND disciples left the wedding and went to Capernaum. People who have difficulty with Mary having had other children; commonly say the people referred to as Jesus's siblings were actually disciples. This passage here though names the brothers as one group and the disciples as a separate group.
I would try to talk to him and let him explain the situation, as I, like Jesus' brothers, could be completely wrong.
And you don't think Jesus's younger siblings would react the same way you would? The one passage (Mark 3:21-35) says they went to him because they were concerned for his safety; because the agitators were creating a scene based on what Jesus was claiming as to being the Messiah. (Someone probably told them what was happening so they decided they better go get him. And their concern was legitimate in the sense that the passage does say that Jesus hadn't eaten.

I'm glad to know you would not think it "disrespectful" to go and try and communicate with your older brother if you felt he was in trouble.
Mary and Joseph were betrothed. That makes everyone related. Do you understand so little of Hebrew culture?
Hebrew culture ehh... Where were these children when Jesus was born? Why did Joseph not take all 6 (or more) of them to Egypt when they fled Herod? Where were these children then? You're arguing from a place of silence. No where in Scripture does it say Joseph had children from a previous marriage or that he was even previously married.
Joseph's adult children who now have households of their own. Do you have children who are married? Do they live in the same house as you?
Considering these brothers went to this wedding; and later to Capernaum with Mary, Jesus and the disciples; it doesn't appear that any of them are married at this point. Maybe they are and their wives and families all... went on a giant family "vacation" together? But still, where were they when Jesus was born? If they were all adults when Jesus was born; well, they'd all be 60 plus years old and not following Mary around trying to round up Jesus. (They'd have their own families to take care of.)
Your inability to grasp simple concepts is not my problem.
No, your lack of Scriptural evidence to support your position is your problem!
If they were then there would be no division.
In terms of principle; I agree with you here. Although there are places in Scripture that record conflicts between Peter, Paul, Barnabas and Mark.
I don't know why you reference Isaiah and Timothy as they don't say what you claim.
The passages quoted explain that you develop doctrine by comparing Scripture with Scripture. Not by following what some church father interpreters it to say for you.
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
You know it's the apostles who wrote this right? We have copies of the letters and the "word of mouth" things from them that the Holy Spirit wanted to be passed on to subsequent generations; made it into those letters; which we still have today!

There is no continuing apostolic line. Church fathers don't hold the same authority the apostles did. This is the problem churches who put their doctrines and dogmas ABOVE Scripture have. When you do that, you're following doctrines of men. People in past history may have some very accurate, Biblically sound doctrines, as well as good and practical things to say; yet when what they say contradicts Scripture; you're to follow Scripture, not them.

And because you are following doctrines church fathers made up about Mary; is why we're having this discussion / argument.

No where in Scripture does it say Mary was a perpetual virgin. No where in Scripture does it say Joseph was married previously and had other children.

So.... why is there such a problem with Mary having children with Joseph? I know the Roman Catholic Church believes Mary was sinless. That's not in Scripture either. Mary didn't believe that about herself even! The Roman Catholic Church believes Mary came from a line of sinless people. Which is absolutely contradictory to Scripture!

The only one who could have even ever produced sinless children was Christ himself. But he opted out of marriage and producing "children of God" in the flesh. (All so He could redeem our sorry...... asteroids!)

Sin nature is passed from father to child, not from mother to child. Thus Mary was not going to pollute Jesus by the fact that she was a sinner herself. Jesus is the only human ever who did not sin! And the fact that he didn't sin is one of the things that made him an appropriate sacrifice for sin. The other thing that made him the appropriate sacrifice was that he also possessed a Divine nature. For without Divinity, he never could have taken on the wrath of God.
 
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John G.

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I will believe the Church's interpretation of Scripture, it's interpretation for close to 2,000 years. And it is that Mary had no other children and was ever Virgin.

No where in Scripture does it say Mary was a perpetual virgin. No where in Scripture does it say Joseph was married previously and had other children.

The Catholic / Orthodox teaching of perpetual virginity is not found in the Bible.
It comes from the so-called "Gospel of James" supposedly written by James, the brother of Jesus, in 145 AD. (Note: James was killed ca. 62 AD).
This book was denounced as Apocryphal and was even condemned by Pope Innocent I but is still believed and taught by those who believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary.
Among the contradictions of this book to the Bible:
* Mary was an only child (in fact she had at least one more sibling - John 19:25)
*The angel Gabriel announced Jesus' birth to Mary in Jerusalem (it was in Nazareth - Luke 1:26)
In addition it contradicts Jewish practice (has Mary living in the Temple since age 3), relegates Joseph to the role of an elderly guardian, claims Jesus' brothers were grown children of Joseph from a previous marriage and is filled with non-Scriptural legend.

 
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jas3

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You state you are so fluent in Greek and English; yet seem unaware that what you quoted here of AI, says the exact opposite of what you're claiming it says. :scratch:
I, a fellow fluent English speaker, can confirm that @prodromos has the right understanding of the AI's explanation, and you are mistaken. "Until" doesn't necessarily mean that a condition changes after a certain time.
The passages quoted explain that you develop doctrine by comparing Scripture with Scripture. Not by following what some church father interpreters it to say for you.
I don't know how you read that interpretation into those passages The biblical example is to go to the Church for clarification (Acts chapters 8 and 15).
There is no continuing apostolic line. Church fathers don't hold the same authority the apostles did.
This is getting way off into the weeds, but nobody says the Church Fathers are the same as the Apostles. What is claimed is that they did ordain bishops and priests to continue their episcopal office (Acts 1, 1 Tim. 3, Titus 1). If you're interested in learning more, maybe you could start a new thread.
 
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The Righterzpen

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The Catholic / Orthodox teaching of perpetual virginity is not found in the Bible.
It comes from the so-called "Gospel of James" supposedly written by James, the brother of Jesus, in 145 AD. (Note: James was killed ca. 62 AD).
This book was denounced as Apocryphal and was even condemned by Pope Innocent I but is still believed and taught by those who believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary.
Among the contradictions of this book to the Bible:
* Mary was an only child (in fact she had at least one more sibling - John 19:25)
*The angel Gabriel announced Jesus' birth to Mary in Jerusalem (it was in Nazareth - Luke 1:26)
In addition it contradicts Jewish practice (has Mary living in the Temple since age 3), relegates Joseph to the role of an elderly guardian, claims Jesus' brothers were grown children of Joseph from a previous marriage and is filled with non-Scriptural legend.

Thanks for the info.
 
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prodromos

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The Catholic / Orthodox teaching of perpetual virginity is not found in the Bible.
It comes from the so-called "Gospel of James" supposedly written by James, the brother of Jesus, in 145 AD. (Note: James was killed ca. 62 AD).
The Protoevangelium of St James is based on Church Tradition, not the other way around.
This book was denounced as Apocryphal and was even condemned by Pope Innocent I
which is fine, because the doctrine of the Church is not based on it but on the teaching handed down.
but is still believed and taught by those who believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary.
Again, the book is not the source of the teaching.
Among the contradictions of this book to the Bible:
* Mary was an only child (in fact she had at least one more sibling - John 19:25)
Clopas is Joseph's brother according to tradition, so Mary the wife of Clopas is Mary's sister by marriage. We would say sister-in-law, but that is not a distinction made in Hebrew culture.
*The angel Gabriel announced Jesus' birth to Mary in Jerusalem (it was in Nazareth - Luke 1:26)
It doesn't say where she was living when Gabriel came to her.
In addition it contradicts Jewish practice (has Mary living in the Temple since age 3)
In every instance of an angel appearing to someone in the Bible, that person usually falls flat on their face in fear. Mary responded as if angels appearing were commonplace, she was only troubled by the manner of greeting.
relegates Joseph to the role of an elderly guardian, claims Jesus' brothers were grown children of Joseph from a previous marriage
according to the knowledge handed down in the Church.
and is filled with non-Scriptural legend.

That is the genre it fits in.
 
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The Righterzpen

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I, a fellow fluent English speaker, can confirm that @prodromos has the right understanding of the AI's explanation, and you are mistaken. "Until" doesn't necessarily mean that a condition changes after a certain time.
Read the definition given by the AI;
"It indicates the point in time when an action or state either ends, or continues up to."
I stopped at the store until I had to go to work.

The store is still there; I’m the one who left the store.

(Joseph) “knew her not until after she brought forth her first born son”

The state of Mary being a virgin “ended” & “continued up to” Joseph “knowing” her. Which happened after Jesus was born.

The passage doesn’t say “from the birth of Christ until her death, Mary remained a virgin.”
I don't know how you read that interpretation into those passages The biblical example is to go to the Church for clarification (Acts chapters 8 and 15).
The passage in Isaiah 28 is pretty clear….
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
In Acts 8 and 15; they went to the apostles for clarification. And even among the apostles; there were times they had to wrestle out among themselves what something meant.

Now church leaders can certainly be good resources to bounce ideas off of; but when what they are saying contradicts the scripture; the answer is that scripture always trumps men’s opinions.
 
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