Is belief/non-belief a morally culpable state?

stevevw said:

But in the end Christs truth and way will always come through and bear good fruit.

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Yes, His only gospel, the Gospel of the Kingdom, the alternate ideology to to the world of man. The Kingdom that was abandoned so that the institution could join forces with an earthly empire. Good fruit was left in the hands of those who reject the ways of the world.

stevevw said:

Wow I like this understanding. This hits right at the heart of Christs transforming, powerful love as a reality and force in the greater scheme of things.

I understood that there was a force or reality that existed apart from the empirical. We know this from morality and experiential phenomena.

Even human love and hate are forces themselves. Hate can destroy a nation. Thats the reality. Never mind the objective reality around us. If its detroyed by hate then thats the reality.

But to fix it on Christs love makes so much sense. That is why the 2nd greatest commandment was to love your neighbour as yourself. As a disposition it covers all. It changes the reality of the world into Christs love which is the core of the gospel.

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Exactly, there is an energy that moves people according to one's belief and it's possible to map it. Agape love as the semantic primitive of all meaning forms positive/negative poles, --> sacrifice self for the benefit of others and sacrifice others for the benefit of self.

All emotions are contained in Agape just as all colors appear when white light is dispersed. Even hate/anger manifest through perceived betrayal. The only emotion that is void of light or color is fear -> (See the Monkey drug trials conducted by Harry Harlow).

Anyway, that's the first commandment and the foundational dichotomy that deals in absolutes like Life/death, True/false, Light/dark etc... The second dichotomy is a left/right/east/west dichotomy; an objective view of two opposing subjective views each with their own subjective left/right spin.

A common example of a derivative left/right dichotomy is 'buyer/seller' where a good and bad price are inverted. <- This is where love others as yourself is reasoned upon with the objective view being at the center -> (The positive/negative polar axis based on Agape), and where subsequently there exists a fair and balances price that can objectively be agreed upon. Mutual Grace through faith works both ends towards that objective center, while mutual cynicism works both ends against the middle. <-- Two energies cynicism/grace.

This second dichotomy overlays the first dichotomy like the compass rose, and the best terms for a consistent moral/immoral substrate application are law/grace. I believe these are the Old and New Covenants, and the two cherubim on the ark of the covenant. I've gathered vector derivative meanings based on this particular semantic taxonomy, and I intend to write a book about it.

childeye 2 said:

Exactly, there is an energy that moves people according to one's belief and it's possible to map it. Agape love as the semantic primitive of all meaning forms positive/negative poles, --> sacrifice self for the benefit of others and sacrifice others for the benefit of self.

All emotions are contained in Agape just as all colors appear when white light is dispersed. Even hate/anger manifest through perceived betrayal. The only emotion that is void of light or color is fear -> (See the Monkey drug trials conducted by Harry Harlow).

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This is interesting. I will check it out. I think hate is the opposite pole of love and is also a powerful force that can destroy even nations. I would have thought there was an opposite pole to fear. Like maybe Christs peace, or Hope.

Fear stems from the unknown. But if we are confident in salvation then fear will not overcome us.

childeye 2 said:

Anyway, that's the first commandment and the foundational dichotomy that deals in absolutes like Life/death, True/false, Light/dark etc...

Click to expand...

What do you think of Terror theory I think its called ? Which is the basic inbuilt instinct in humans to fear death. Everything is geared around the fear of death.

childeye 2 said:

The second dichotomy is a left/right/east/west dichotomy; an objective view of two opposing subjective views each with their own subjective left/right spin.

A common example of a derivative left/right dichotomy is 'buyer/seller' where a good and bad price are inverted. <- This is where love others as yourself is reasoned upon with the objective view being at the center -> (The positive/negative polar axis based on Agape), and where subsequently there exists a fair and balances price that can objectively be agreed upon. Mutual Grace through faith works both ends towards that objective center, while mutual cynicism works both ends against the middle. <-- Two energies cynicism/grace.

Click to expand...

This is interesting. From what I understand this perhaps inbuilt sense of knowing the imbalance even in money transactions is subjective yet also intuited or sensed as to where that balance is. When it steps into the bad price or good and fair price. Just like we have a built in sense or empathy that tells us when a line is crossed for immoral treatment of others.

Which makes sense as to the 2nd comandment being to love your neighbour as yourself which underpins all the moral laws along with the greatest commandment. That a great deal if not all morality is basically about our relationship with others and how we treat them.

Which ties back to Christs sacrificial love that we may example this in reality. Which is radically different to the worlds idea of how things should be ordered. Like you said an opposite pole and a flip on Christs sacrificial love.

childeye 2 said:

This second dichotomy overlays the first dichotomy like the compass rose, and the best terms for a consistent moral/immoral substrate application are law/grace. I believe these are the Old and New Covenants, and the two cherubim on the ark of the covenant. I've gathered vector derivative meanings based on this particular semantic taxonomy, and I intend to write a book about it.

Click to expand...

Ok this also sounds very interesting. I will have to look into this. Can you elaborate a bit ?

timothyu said:

Yes, His only gospel, the Gospel of the Kingdom, the alternate ideology to to the world of man. The Kingdom that was abandoned so that the institution could join forces with an earthly empire. Good fruit was left in the hands of those who reject the ways of the world.

Click to expand...

So I guess anywhere that Christians are gathered and united in Christ and are spreading Gods Kingdom on earth will be of Christs church. That is the good fruit.

In that case we look for good fruits that show Gods Kingdom being believed and proclaimed and most importantly 'lived by'. Examples in deed.

Which will ultimately mean that there will be a conflict of beliefs and ideas between Gods Kingdom and the worlds kingdom. Which should then mean that the world will hate and clash with Christs church.

Which means that any church that is loved by the world and not in conflict with it. But is conflicted and divided in itself. Christ cannot have a place.

From memory I think Clement or Ignatius mentioned this as an identifyer of the good and bad fruit of a church or people gathered as one. Division itself is the beginning of evil entering the church.

stevevw said:

Division itself is the beginning of evil entering the church.

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Unless the division is between the will of man and the Will of God. The Kingdom divided from the world

stevevw said:

This is interesting. I will check it out. I think hate is the opposite pole of love and is also a powerful force that can destroy even nations. I would have thought there was an opposite pole to fear. Like maybe Christs peace, or Hope.

Click to expand...

After looking it up, The Harlow Monkey drug trials is not the experiment I meant to reference. The one I'm thinking of was where baby monkeys were raised in isolation and became "hyper-vigilant", a nuance of fear. I would like to know if you can think of any personal hatred in the moral/immoral context that is NOT based on some type/form of perceived betrayal.

stevevw said:

Fear stems from the unknown. But if we are confident in salvation then fear will not overcome us.

Click to expand...

I agree that fear stems from the unknown. When I was a kid, I was scared of the dark. When I would turn the Light on it subsided almost immediately, like relief. I believe Agape Love holds all emotions just like white Light disperses into all the colors. The reason why I don't believe fear is found in agape is because scripture says, perfect Love casts out all fear. It sounds like love dissolves fear.

stevevw said:

What do you think of Terror theory I think its called ? Which is the basic inbuilt instinct in humans to fear death. Everything is geared around the fear of death.

Click to expand...

I'm familiar with the concept of the fear of life having no meaning. Fear of death sounds like a survival instinct to me. Ironically, it seems like if life had no meaning, then death would be nothing to fear. When Paul talked about the power of the fear of death, I think he was talking in the context of the law; sort of like trying to be good out of a fear of death rather than out of love for others.

stevevw said:

This is interesting. From what I understand this perhaps inbuilt sense of knowing the imbalance even in money transactions is subjective yet also intuited or sensed as to where that balance is. When it steps into the bad price or good and fair price. Just like we have a built in sense or empathy that tells us when a line is crossed for immoral treatment of others.

Click to expand...

If empathy could be twisted into cruelty of torture, then I would think unfair measures could be counted as winning. I believe

stevevw said:

Which makes sense as to the 2nd comandment being to love your neighbour as yourself which underpins all the moral laws along with the greatest commandment. That a great deal if not all morality is basically about our relationship with others and how we treat them.

Which ties back to Christs sacrificial love that we may example this in reality. Which is radically different to the worlds idea of how things should be ordered. Like you said an opposite pole and a flip on Christs sacrificial love.

Ok this also sounds very interesting. I will have to look into this. Can you elaborate a bit ?

Click to expand...

The law and grace have different substrates and therefore different languages; Two different types or means of righteousness. I don't know if the two cherubim are the two covenants or accuse/excuse and one has to forgive to be forgiven, as if only love can pass through.