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There is only 2 options, Life formed because of God, or by random chance from non-living matter

Warden_of_the_Storm

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I didn’t give you the Scripture we’re talking about? It’s Genesis 2:7 — “Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.” I made a comment about the “breath of life.” Everyone already knows we have a soul, so the real question is: what is a soul?

Also, since I reread this; no, everyone doesn't know we have a soul. Claiming we have a soul and believing we have a soul are not at all the same thing as knowing we have a soul, nor showing we have a soul. You are doing both of the former (claiming and believing) while doing none of the latter (showing).
 
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Hans Blaster

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I’m trying to answer your question at the level you’re actually asking it.
You really didn't, but that's why I asked again.
From the start, I was talking about the Hebrew term that shifts the story from mankind as a whole to the individual Adam. That shift matters, because it’s the same pattern we see in real life: a collective becomes a person.
You said something about science not being able to measure it or some such thing. This bit of theology doesn't come close to answering why that might be. (You can answer my questions in the negative, but until you do, I don't know what your "soul" concept is or how measurable or unmeasurable it is.
If you want the Sunday‑school cartoon version, that’s one conversation.
I never went to school on Sundays, so no, I don't want theology for children.
If you want the real‑world version, that’s another.
In the real world we measure stuff. If we can't measure it, then at least let me know what about it is unmeasurable.
A good example is in To Kill a Mockingbird, where a hostile crowd breaks down into individuals once one person is addressed directly.
I don't know that movie. Your reference is not meaningful to me.
I’m using examples like that because they show the exact dynamic you’re asking about.
No, movies don't answer my question at all. I want to know if the soul is physical or if it can survive death, etc. Those are claims I can grasp as testable by measurement or untestable. That's all I want to know.
 
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truthuprootsevil

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I personally believe in the Divine Creator The entity we referred to as God. And we must remember God created the Earth he is not from the Earth.

I cannot wrap my mind around the theory of abiogensis, life sprung up from none life by chemical mixtures and climate.

The theory of panspermia is better, which supports life is out there in this infinite space.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Oh, good grief, you answered my post in three separate parts and still didn't get an answer to my actual questions. Sigh.
This is part of the oral tradition that runs alongside the written Bible. Groups like the Hasidic preserve this very carefully.
I'm not interested.
When you study Hebrew, this is one of the first structural things you learn: the language itself marks the moment when “humanity” becomes “the individual Adam.”
I haven't and have no interest or intent to study Hebrew. I have no use for it. I have no desire to read Hebrew literature or travel where it is spoken.
That shift isn’t a cartoon version of the story. It’s the real interpretive framework that has been handed down for centuries. I’m bringing this up because it directly answers what you asked. The written text gives the narrative, but the oral tradition explains how the narrative works, how the categories shift, and why the story moves from the collective to the person.
I haven't been asking about narratives or interpretive frameworks. I didn't come into this section of CF to discuss narratives or literature or feelings or traditions.
Please do not attack Judah.
I didn't. The Babylonians did that 2600 years ago and kingdom of Judah was no more. (I lack the army or time machine to do so.)
Every Holocaust survivor I’ve ever listened to warned against using language or attitudes that disrespect the people of Judah. That history is too serious to play with. I’m asking for basic respect, nothing more.
What??!?!??

The text you responded to was: "Since I don't read Hebrew, or remember what this reference to (Genesis) 2:7 might be, none of this has any meaning to me."

Let me recap the elements of my text that you replied to and why your reaction is nuts:

1. I don't actually read Hebrew. Not reading Hebrew is not disrespecting "Judah". I don't read Hebrew because I am not a Jew, nor have any of my ancestors been one, nor do I have much knowledge of language. I can read English and Fortran, none else.
2. I don't have any biblical texts committed to memory. I do know that the second chapter of Genesis is the second version of the creation story, but the specific verse number does not trigger any specific memory of which part of that story it is. I could look it up, but since it wouldn't answer my actual questions, I'm not going to bother. Not knowing part of their scripture in detail is not "disrespecting Judah".
3. No religious text holds any meaning to me. Not the Torah, not the Gospels, not the Bagdavita (sp), not any of it. Not being interested in it is not "disrespecting Judah". Sure, I don't care about their scripture, but I don't care about anyone else's scripture either. (Nor the philosophers, either, since you keep mentioning Plato.)


Finally there is the whole holocaust jab that was completely uncalled for. Knock it off.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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I personally believe in the Divine Creator The entity we referred to as God. And we must remember God created the Earth he is not from the Earth.

I cannot wrap my mind around the theory of abiogensis, life sprung up from none life by chemical mixtures and climate.

The theory of panspermia is better, which supports life is out there in this infinite space.

You've said this already, practically word for word.
 
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Firstlightdawn

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I'm not interested.
Exactly. You’re not interested. You won’t be here for the Kingdom Age, so justice doesn’t matter to you.
You are doing both of the former (claiming and believing) while doing none of the latter (showing).
There’s nothing to show. We can throw the word “soul” in the trash can because it has nothing to do with what we’re talking about.

We already talked about Mockingbird. I do have one more book worth bringing in: Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds. My wife actually made a lot of money because she learned how to read, predict, and steer crowd behavior. That’s the same reason clickbait works on social media.

It’s a book about how whole societies can go crazy together—financial bubbles, superstitions, manias, and mass delusions—where crowds make the same irrational mistakes with total confidence. This is starting to come up in conversations with my son about what’s going on with ICE right now.
 
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Firstlightdawn

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You said something
Really, you are changing your tune now because you said I said nothing.
I don't know what your "soul" concept
I do NOT have a concept. We are talking about a word in the KJV.
I don't know that movie. Your reference is not meaningful to me.
You know it is a movie. Here is a quick summery A crowd gathers at the jail at night, ready to take the prisoner and kill him before the trial. As a group they stop thinking and act on shared anger. One small, unexpected moment of human connection breaks the spell, and the mob quietly disperses as they become individuals and no longer a crowd.
 
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Firstlightdawn

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What??!?!??
When I mention Judaism, people often attack them, so this is just preventive on my part because of my association with Holocaust survivors. I assume you’re not interested in those stories, but it does make us more sensitive to persecution.

You actually did exactly what I was trying to avoid when you said, “Finally there is the whole holocaust jab that was completely uncalled for. Knock it off.” That’s the kind of reaction I was trying to prevent.

They don’t really have a word for someone who loves the Hasidic world the way I do. It’s not imitation or identity—just deep respect. So trying to separate me from that isn’t going to work.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Exactly. You’re not interested. You won’t be here for the Kingdom Age, so justice doesn’t matter to you.
I have no idea what that "age" is. It seems to be some sort of religious term, but not one I ever heard.
There’s nothing to show. We can throw the word “soul” in the trash can because it has nothing to do with what we’re talking about.
I want to know what you meant by souls not being detectable by science. This is the science section after all.
We already talked about Mockingbird. I do have one more book worth bringing in: Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds. My wife actually made a lot of money because she learned how to read, predict, and steer crowd behavior. That’s the same reason clickbait works on social media.
Don't know that one either.
It’s a book about how whole societies can go crazy together—financial bubbles, superstitions, manias, and mass delusions—where crowds make the same irrational mistakes with total confidence.
I'm not sure you want to bring up such topics while quoting religion.
This is starting to come up in conversations with my son about what’s going on with ICE right now.
Oh boy, you're one of those people.
 
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Hans Blaster

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This may not have been directed at you. When I mention Judaism, people often attack them, so this is just preventive on my part because of my association with Holocaust survivors. I assume you’re not interested in those stories but it makes us a bit more sensitive to persecution.
I haven't attacked them, but I don't take their religion any more seriously than I take the Jesus stuff. (Which is not at all.)
 
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Hans Blaster

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Really, you are changing your tune now because you said I said nothing.
I am not. I still want to know what you meant about souls and science. (And quit cutting off most of my text in the reply. I get responding to parts of posts and not including the part not responded to, but mid sentence is not polite.)
I do NOT have a concept.
You do not have a soul concept? Do you not belive in them? If not, then fine, I don't either and we can stop.
We are talking about a word in the KJV.
Which word? The only word I recall (other than "soul") you having a thing about was some Hebrew word in the Hebrew text of Gen 2. I don't know the KJV or put much credit in it as I have never been English or Protestant.
You know it is a movie. Here is a quick summery A crowd gathers at the jail at night, ready to take the prisoner and kill him before the trial. As a group they stop thinking and act on shared anger. One small, unexpected moment of human connection breaks the spell, and the mob quietly disperses as they become individuals and no longer a crowd.
OK, but that's got nothing to do with the detection of souls (or the undetectability there of). [I think the movie stars the same guy who was in that annoying Christmas movie with the "angel getting wings" line about bells and that awful movie about Congress. I can't remember his name right now.]
 
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Firstlightdawn

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Which word?
The main Hebrew word for “breath” is neshamah (נְשָׁמָה). If you do not want to look at the meaning of this Hebrew word then we do not have a conversation.

If you want the broader picture, biblical Hebrew also uses ruach (רוּחַ), which can mean breath, wind, or spirit depending on context.

I’m only going to quote what I’m responding to. If people want to see your full post, they can use the button to view it.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I’m only going to quote what I’m responding to. If people want to see your full post, they can use the button to view it.
You included only the first few words of a full sentence that together gave no idea what I was talking about and then accused me of changing my tune. That's disreputable. Be better.
 
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Hans Blaster

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The soul comes from God, and science can’t detect God, so of course science can’t detect the soul. Science stays agnostic because the soul isn’t something its tools are designed to measure.
You've made some claims and invoked science in this post. I have questions about this for the science section.

Here are my questions:


Are souls a product of the person?


Do they exist outside bodies?


Do they survive death?


Do they interact with the flesh or are they part of it?
 
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mcswan1946

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And that's a great way to tell us that you don't know what you're arguing against.

Besides: evolution doesn't rule out a creator in any way or form. It just says how we got the lifeforms we have now. The only thing it rules out is Biblically literal Creationism.

How does it rul out Biblically literal Creationism?
 
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Hans Blaster

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Why do you keep asking me about souls?
Because you made a claim about souls related to science on the science board. You have dodged every last attempt to ask questions about that post and instead would rather talk about obscure words.

If you can't handle a discussion of science and what science can measure on the science sub-forum, perhaps you should post elsewhere.
 
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mcswan1946

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It appears that you're saying you don't know how life was formed, yet you limit the possibilities to just two. I could understand if you'd just stopped with life was either formed by God or it wasn't.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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There’s nothing to show. We can throw the word “soul” in the trash can because it has nothing to do with what we’re talking about.

We already talked about Mockingbird. I do have one more book worth bringing in: Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds. My wife actually made a lot of money because she learned how to read, predict, and steer crowd behavior. That’s the same reason clickbait works on social media.

It’s a book about how whole societies can go crazy together—financial bubbles, superstitions, manias, and mass delusions—where crowds make the same irrational mistakes with total confidence. This is starting to come up in conversations with my son about what’s going on with ICE right now.

Your trite attempts at equivocation aside, you are on the science forum. If you don't want to talk science, then don't come here pretending that you're able to talk about science. It just makes you look ignorant.

You've been asked questions about the soul which you have been absolutely unable to answer. Simple thing that you could do is admit that you cannot answer them, and then just leave it at that. But you keep acting like you can and acting like you are answering them, so don't complain when people ask you questions.
 
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