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Why do we do things not written in the Bible?

The Liturgist

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I need to see some resource on that, please.

This is the Ordo of the Roman liturgical calendar for 2026; the date we call Easter in English is in bold, notice how it is called “Dominica Resurrectionis” meaning “the Lord’s Day of Resurrection” following Sabato Sancto (the Holy Sabbath, when our Lord reposed in the tomb) and how the days of the week are referred to in the octave (eight days including Pascha) - this being an example of what I would assume is your least favorite Church not using the word Easter at all with regards to the Resurrection. I can supply more, from Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox liturgical calendars, although past a certain point I would argue it becomes …. redundant, since really only a few languages refer to the Pascha using a word like English (if I remember correctly, its English, German and the Nordic languages).

Dies de Tempore Sanctorum Vespera d.h.
1 Feria Quarta Majoris Hebdomadæ Feria privilegiata Vespera de Tempore occurente F.IV
2 Feria Quinta in Coena Domini Feria privilegiata *I* Vespera de Tempore occurente F.V
3 Feria Sexta in Parasceve Feria privilegiata Vespera de Tempore occurente F.VI
4 Sabbato Sancto Feria privilegiata Vespera de sequenti. Sabb.
5 Dominica Resurrectionis Duplex I. classis Vespera de Tempore occurente Dom.
6 Die II infra octavam Paschae Duplex I. classis Vespera de Tempore occurente F.II
7 Die III infra octavam Paschae Duplex I. classis Vespera de Tempore occurente F.III
8 Die IV infra octavam Paschae Semiduplex Vespera de Tempore occurente F.IV
9 Die V infra octavam Paschae Semiduplex Vespera de Tempore occurente F.V
10 Die VI infra octavam Paschæ Semiduplex Vespera de Officio occurente, Commemoratio Sanctorum crastinorum tantum F.VI
 
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The Liturgist

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You would have to show me some scriptures and verses on that, please. Until then let's focus on staying away from paganism.

The subject of this thread doesn’t say anything about Paganism but rather asks “Why do we do things not in the Bible?” The implication being among other things that anything not described in the Bible is Pagan, but such an argument from silence is fallacious.
 
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PloverWing

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Let me just ask you a question why does it bother you so much that you cannot observe the Passover as it's written in the word of God? Why do u have to be press on using Easter to you and you know that Easter carry a pagan religion behind it. You God don't deal with Man's tradition. Didn't Paul say in Colossians 2: 8 B eware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

If one of my Jewish friends invited me to celebrate Passover with them, I would be honored, and I would accept the invitation.

But I am Christian, and I believe that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead. Celebrating this event weekly and annually is important to me.

I do indeed work to avoid falling prey to vain deceit. As St Paul goes on to say in Colossians 2, "Therefore, do not let anyone condemn you in matters of food or drink or of observing festivals, new moons, or Sabbaths." Very good advice from St Paul.
 
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The Liturgist

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The fact is Jesus was not even born in the winter season. When Jesus was born, "there were shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night." (Luke 2:8). This could never have occurred in Judea in the month of December. The shepherds always brought their flocks from the mountainsides and fields and corralled them no later than October, to protect them from the cold, rainy season that followed.

That’s an extra-Biblical assumption, which ignores the historic facts of shepherding, which often has required standing outside in inclement weather (google a Shepherd’s Bush some time; its more than just the name of a train station in London).

At any rate Christians in the Holy Land, aware of what the winters are like there, are convinced that the nativity happened in December, which would be irrational if the weather were as inclement as you suggest.
 
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The Liturgist

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If one of my Jewish friends invited me to celebrate Passover with them, I would be honored, and I would accept the invitation.

But I am Christian, and I believe that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead. Celebrating this event weekly and annually is important to me.

I do indeed work to avoid falling prey to vain deceit. As St Paul goes on to say in Colossians 2, "Therefore, do not let anyone condemn you in matters of food or drink or of observing festivals, new moons, or Sabbaths." Very good advice from St Paul.

Indeed - but yet people contniue to condemn traditional Christians for this in violation of what St. Paul said.
 
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PloverWing

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Leviticus 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's Passover.

Note what the book states. The Lord's Passover must be observed on the 14 day of the first month, which is the month of Abib. This month can be set by the new moon in the spring. In the 4th verse it states it must be observed in its season, any other time is wrong. Within the Roman Christian community, the bread and wine is taken every Sunday or every first Sunday. They also have changed the name of the Passover. They call it communion, sacrament or when someone's about to die they call it the last rites. When this is done it is done in vain. It must be taken when the Lord says it must be taken.

Wait, do you disagree with Communion as well? That's really wild. It's one of the most ancient and universal of Christian practices.

Does your church celebrate Communion at all, or just once a year at Passover, or never? With the exception of the Society of Friends, I don't know any Christian groups that reject Communion (and the Friends' reasoning is quite different from yours). What kind of church do you attend, may I ask? What persuaded you to join them?
 
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JSRG

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The fact is Jesus was not even born in the winter season. When Jesus was born, "there were shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night." (Luke 2:8). This could never have occurred in Judea in the month of December.

It could have. Here's an excerpt from Exposition of the gospel according to Matthew by William Hendrickson, page 182:

In a letter dated January 16, 1967 the New Testament scholar Dr. Harry Mulder of The Netherlands writes (my translation from the Dutch):

“During the brief Christmas vacation my wife and I traveled from Beirut [where he was teaching at the time] to Jerusalem. In this connection I can also answer your question regarding the presence of sheep around Bethlehem in the month of December. On Christmas eve in Shepherd Field a crowd had gathered to sing Christmas carols. We joined this crowd and took part in the singing. Right near us a few flocks of sheep were nestled. Even the lambs were not lacking. It was a moving sight. It is therefore definitely not impossible that the Lord Jesus was born in December. But it is perhaps interesting to mention in this connection that the swarthy Coptic monks whose humble dwellings are located in the heart of the older city celebrate Christmas every month on the roof of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, because we do not know in which month the Lord was born. The weather in Jerusalem was beautiful, thus also in Bethlehem. We spent a few hours in the fields of Ephrata and were not bothered by the cold orby anything of that kind.”


So while the popular talking point is that the weather would have made it impossible, this indicates it was possible.

The shepherds always brought their flocks from the mountainsides and fields and corralled them no later than October, to protect them from the cold, rainy season that followed. Notice in Songs of Solomon 2:11 and Ezra 10:9, 13, that winter was a rainy season and typically the herds would most likely not be out in the rainy winter season. "It was an ancient custom among Jews of those days to send out their sheep to the fields and deserts about the Passover (early spring), and bring them home at commencement of the first rain," says the Adam Clarke Commentary (Vol. 5, page 370, New York ed.) Continuing, "During the time they were out, the shepherds watched them night and day. As..the first rain began early in the month of Marchesvan, which answers to part of our October and November (begins sometime in October), we find that the sheep were kept out in the open country during the whole summer. And, as these shepherds had not yet brought home their flocks, it is a presumptive argument that October had not yet commenced, and that, consequently, Jesus was not born on December 25th, when no flocks were out in the fields; nor could He have been born later than September, as the flocks were in the fields by night.

Adam Clarke cites no evidence for his claim that it was an "ancient custom among Jews" outside of the very vague claim of "see the quotations from the Talmudists in Lightfoot." No doubt this refers to J.B. Lightfoot, an Anglican Bishop from the 19th century, but without further specification I do not know where to look.

However, even if we were to assume this information is correct--note that both Lightfoot and Clarke lived in the 19th century and thus can be considered out of date--this being a general custom does not disqualify some shepherds from being out in the fields, particularly given the fact that Bethlehem does not have a particularly cold climate. Even if someone were to argue it would be unusual, unusual is not impossible.

Therefore, to celebrate Jesus' birth date on December 25th is not scripturally sound. Any encyclopedia will tell you that Christ was not born on December 25th. The exact date of Jesus' birth is entirely unknown, as all authorities acknowledge - though by reading the scriptures, it strongly indicates His birth was in the early fall, probably September, approximately six months after Passover. This can also be found in the Catholic Encyclopedia 1967.
It is certainly not true that "any encyclopedia will tell you that Christ was not born on December 25th." Indeed, the very encyclopedia you cite does not, or at least I do not see where it says such a thing. The New Catholic Encyclopedia on page 656 of volume 3 says "Inexplicable though it seems, the date of Christ's birth is not known." It does not say that it was not in December; it says it is not known, which is different (and therefore leaves open a possibility of December 25).

It is true that some encyclopedias would say it isn't, but others will more accurately say, like the New Catholic Encyclopedia, that the date is not known for certain, which is the position I would hold. Do we know for sure? No. Was it December 25? Maybe.

For the record, though, an argument is mounted in this article that December 25 was indeed the actual birth of Jesus:
 
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JSRG

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Of course I copy because I know and understand the different between God and Man. Also neither one of us was born in those days when all these pagan festivals and religion was added or try to be added to the word of God, so of course I'm gonna get my information from history.

But you're not getting your information from history is the problem. You're getting them from places that make claims without evidence, and indeed make claims that are flat-out false.

Even the Bible itself is history, but but now I have a source and you complaining about the facts, is looking like you just have a problem with believing the truth, and that's your problem. At this point I'm not going to go back-and-forth with you about Easter being pagan because now I have shown you source and I prove my opposition on the subject of Easter is being pagan, so this is a belief problem, so if you don't believe it then that's on you, but I'm not going to continue going back-and-forth about it. You ask for a source and you got it!!

What I asked for was evidence, particularly primary sources. You didn't offer any. That's the problem. If there is any record of pagans doing such-and-such, there would be... well, a record of it. A record that could be pointed to. But there appear to be absolutely no records of the things you have claimed. The fact you found a source claiming these things doesn't mean anything if the source offers no evidence, which it didn't. No primary sources were cited at all.

Let's take for an example the following statement the source you cited made:

In Germanic mythology, it is said that Ostara healed a wounded bird she found in the woods by changing it into a hare. Still partially a bird, the hare showed its gratitude to the goddess by laying eggs as gifts.

This offers no primary source for this (actually it offers no source at all, let alone any primary source). It just makes the claim with no evidence. So all you have done is shown that someone made this claim, but no proof has been offered by you or them. And of course no proof is offered, for there is no proof--as I noted before, there is not a single reference to Ostara in all of German mythology, because Ostara was just a speculation by a 19th century writer; some good information on that is found here. Jacob Grimm in the 19th century speculated about the existence of an Ostara, a later writer offered the further speculation she was associated with rabbits, and then people ran with these speculations and made up all sorts of stories about her that aren't found in any actual German mythology, which people then repeat as if they were actual German mythology, when they're actually things people made up in the late 19th century or later.

So you haven't offered actual evidence. You just pointed to some people who made claims without evidence. I can point to people making all sorts of claims, but if they don't have any actual evidence, then it's worthless. There's simply no evidence of so many of the claims you and your sources were making on Easter, which is exactly why your sources do not offer any evidence and just make the claims without evidence. That's the problem.
 
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Jan001

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The fact is Jesus was not even born in the winter season. When Jesus was born, "there were shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night." (Luke 2:8). This could never have occurred in Judea in the month of December. The shepherds always brought their flocks from the mountainsides and fields and corralled them no later than October, to protect them from the cold, rainy season that followed. Notice in Songs of Solomon 2:11 and Ezra 10:9, 13, that winter was a rainy season and typically the herds would most likely not be out in the rainy winter season. "It was an ancient custom among Jews of those days to send out their sheep to the fields and deserts about the Passover (early spring), and bring them home at commencement of the first rain," says the Adam Clarke Commentary (Vol. 5, page 370, New York ed.) Continuing, "During the time they were out, the shepherds watched them night and day. As..the first rain began early in the month of Marchesvan, which answers to part of our October and November (begins sometime in October), we find that the sheep were kept out in the open country during the whole summer. And, as these shepherds had not yet brought home their flocks, it is a presumptive argument that October had not yet commenced, and that, consequently, Jesus was not born on December 25th, when no flocks were out in the fields; nor could He have been born later than September, as the flocks were in the fields by night.

Therefore, to celebrate Jesus' birth date on December 25th is not scripturally sound. Any encyclopedia will tell you that Christ was not born on December 25th. The exact date of Jesus' birth is entirely unknown, as all authorities acknowledge - though by reading the scriptures, it strongly indicates His birth was in the early fall, probably September, approximately six months after Passover. This can also be found in the Catholic Encyclopedia 1967.
It doesn't matter when Jesus Christ was actually born.

The Christian leaders chose to commemorate the birth of their Savior on December 25 of every year. The leaders of Christ's Church were given the power to decide feasting days and fasting days for the Christians.

The Church's leaders also decided how to commemorate Jesus' resurrection from the dead; the day (always a Sunday) changes every year presently. They could someday decide that the first Sunday in April of every year, for example, be the day to celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. He gave them the power to do this.


Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Matthew 18:18
“Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Then focus on the Bible term Passover, which is written in the word of God, and that you stay safe....here's why....Let's go into Revelation 20: 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Stick with Passover, Passover is written in the word of God all the way from exodus thur Revelation. Stay away from man's tradition, because man's tradition is not written in the book of life. Pay attention!!
There's no reason for me to use the vocabulary that you prefer.
 
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Bro.T

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It doesn't matter when Jesus Christ was actually born.

The Christian leaders chose to commemorate the birth of their Savior on December 25 of every year. The leaders of Christ's Church were given the power to decide feasting days and fasting days for the Christians.

The Church's leaders also decided how to commemorate Jesus' resurrection from the dead; the day (always a Sunday) changes every year presently. They could someday decide that the first Sunday in April of every year, for example, be the day to celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. He gave them the power to do this.


Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Matthew 18:18
“Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
In the scriptures it's written in Psalm 147: 18 He sendeth out his word, and melteth them: He causeth his wind to blow, and the waters flow. 19 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, His statutes and his judgments unto Israel. 20 He hath not dealt so with any nation:And as for his judgments, they have not known them.

What christian leaders are you talking about, according to the word of God, he only dealt with Israel! Pay Attention to who you are following.
 
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Bro.T

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But you're not getting your information from history is the problem. You're getting them from places that make claims without evidence, and indeed make claims that are flat-out false.



What I asked for was evidence, particularly primary sources. You didn't offer any. That's the problem. If there is any record of pagans doing such-and-such, there would be... well, a record of it. A record that could be pointed to. But there appear to be absolutely no records of the things you have claimed. The fact you found a source claiming these things doesn't mean anything if the source offers no evidence, which it didn't. No primary sources were cited at all.

Let's take for an example the following statement the source you cited made:

In Germanic mythology, it is said that Ostara healed a wounded bird she found in the woods by changing it into a hare. Still partially a bird, the hare showed its gratitude to the goddess by laying eggs as gifts.

This offers no primary source for this (actually it offers no source at all, let alone any primary source). It just makes the claim with no evidence. So all you have done is shown that someone made this claim, but no proof has been offered by you or them. And of course no proof is offered, for there is no proof--as I noted before, there is not a single reference to Ostara in all of German mythology, because Ostara was just a speculation by a 19th century writer; some good information on that is found here. Jacob Grimm in the 19th century speculated about the existence of an Ostara, a later writer offered the further speculation she was associated with rabbits, and then people ran with these speculations and made up all sorts of stories about her that aren't found in any actual German mythology, which people then repeat as if they were actual German mythology, when they're actually things people made up in the late 19th century or later.

So you haven't offered actual evidence. You just pointed to some people who made claims without evidence. I can point to people making all sorts of claims, but if they don't have any actual evidence, then it's worthless. There's simply no evidence of so many of the claims you and your sources were making on Easter, which is exactly why your sources do not offer any evidence and just make the claims without evidence. That's the problem.
All my sources is good....peace in Jesus name


Easter and Its Connection to Passover

The Ancient Pagan Origins of Easter | Ancient Origins

Easter is associated with the Jewish festival of Passover through its symbolism and meaning, as well as its position in the calendar. Some early Christians chose to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus on the same date as Passover, which reflects Easter having entered Christianity during its earliest Jewish period. Evidence of a more developed Christian festival of Easter emerged around the mid-second century.

In 325 AD, Emperor Constantine convened a meeting of Christian leaders to resolve important disputes at the Council of Nicaea. Since the church believed that the resurrection took place on a Sunday, the Council determined that Easter should always fall on the first Sunday after the first full moon following the vernal equinox. Easter has since remained without a fixed date but proximate to the full moon, which coincided with the start of Passover.

While there are distinct differences between the celebrations of Pesach and Easter, both festivals celebrate rebirth – in Christianity through the resurrection of Jesus, and in Jewish traditions through the liberation of the Israelites from slavery.

The Origins of Easter customs

The most widely-practiced customs on Easter Sunday relate to the symbol of the rabbit (‘Easter bunny’) and the egg. As outlined previously, a hare was a symbol associated with Eostre, representing the beginning of Springtime. Likewise, the egg has come to represent Spring, fertility, and renewal. In Germanic mythology, it is said that Ostara healed a wounded bird she found in the woods by changing it into a hare. Still partially a bird, the hare showed its gratitude to the goddess by laying eggs as gifts.

The Encyclopedia Last Two Millions Pg. 216: “Pagan Rites Absorbed”

Easter, for instance, a time of sacrifice and rebirth in the Christian year, takes its name from the Norse goddess Eostre, in whose honor rites were held every spring. She in turn was simply a Northern version of the Phoenicians earth-mother Astarte, goddess of fertility. Easter eggs continue an-old age tradition in which the egg is a symbol of birth; and cakes which were eating to mark the festival of Astarte and Eostre where the direct ancestor of our hot-cross buns.

The Encyclopedia Last Two Millions Pg. 84 “Belief that made a nation”

The Phoenicians, important though their achievement were as migrant traders and colonizers, seem to have developed a little conception nationhood. But the Hebrews or Jews, with relatively small in numbers though they were saw themselves from the start as a distant people because of their believe in Yahweh or Jehovah the only God. Orgiastic rites; devotees of Astarte were stimulated by music, wine and incense.

Hx. Book: Last 2Mil Yrs. Pg 216 & 84 "Pagan Rites Absorbed" The Catholic Church established churches where temples to pagan gods use to be. Easter/Eastra– heathen festival – easter – hot

cross buns

ORIGIN OF SUNDAY WORSHIP

Ample evidence from history shows that the celebration of Sunday originated from pagan practices of SUN WORSHIP. In March of 321 A.D., the Roman Emperor Constantine, who was at first a sun-worshiper and later a Christian convert, issued the first decree declaring Sunday to be a legal day of rest. In 336 A.D., the Roman Catholic Church officially changed the observance of Sabbath to Sunday for political and economic expediency. Since then, the original Sabbath gradually gave way to Sunday observance and the practice remains to this day.

The Catholic authorities proclaim: "The Bible says, 'Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.' The Catholic Church says, No! By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day, and command you to keep the first day of the week. And lo, the entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church!" Father Enright, C.S.S.R. of the Redemptoral College, Kansas City, Mo., as taken from History of the Sabbath. pg. 802

The Biblical Sabbath, however, is and has always been on the seventh day of the week, or Saturday. Despite the prevalence of Sunday worship in Christendom, we must look to the Bible as our authority and keep the seventh day Sabbath ordained by God.
 
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Bro.T

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It could have. Here's an excerpt from Exposition of the gospel according to Matthew by William Hendrickson, page 182:

In a letter dated January 16, 1967 the New Testament scholar Dr. Harry Mulder of The Netherlands writes (my translation from the Dutch):

“During the brief Christmas vacation my wife and I traveled from Beirut [where he was teaching at the time] to Jerusalem. In this connection I can also answer your question regarding the presence of sheep around Bethlehem in the month of December. On Christmas eve in Shepherd Field a crowd had gathered to sing Christmas carols. We joined this crowd and took part in the singing. Right near us a few flocks of sheep were nestled. Even the lambs were not lacking. It was a moving sight. It is therefore definitely not impossible that the Lord Jesus was born in December. But it is perhaps interesting to mention in this connection that the swarthy Coptic monks whose humble dwellings are located in the heart of the older city celebrate Christmas every month on the roof of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, because we do not know in which month the Lord was born. The weather in Jerusalem was beautiful, thus also in Bethlehem. We spent a few hours in the fields of Ephrata and were not bothered by the cold orby anything of that kind.”


So while the popular talking point is that the weather would have made it impossible, this indicates it was possible.



Adam Clarke cites no evidence for his claim that it was an "ancient custom among Jews" outside of the very vague claim of "see the quotations from the Talmudists in Lightfoot." No doubt this refers to J.B. Lightfoot, an Anglican Bishop from the 19th century, but without further specification I do not know where to look.

However, even if we were to assume this information is correct--note that both Lightfoot and Clarke lived in the 19th century and thus can be considered out of date--this being a general custom does not disqualify some shepherds from being out in the fields, particularly given the fact that Bethlehem does not have a particularly cold climate. Even if someone were to argue it would be unusual, unusual is not impossible.


It is certainly not true that "any encyclopedia will tell you that Christ was not born on December 25th." Indeed, the very encyclopedia you cite does not, or at least I do not see where it says such a thing. The New Catholic Encyclopedia on page 656 of volume 3 says "Inexplicable though it seems, the date of Christ's birth is not known." It does not say that it was not in December; it says it is not known, which is different (and therefore leaves open a possibility of December 25).

It is true that some encyclopedias would say it isn't, but others will more accurately say, like the New Catholic Encyclopedia, that the date is not known for certain, which is the position I would hold. Do we know for sure? No. Was it December 25? Maybe.

For the record, though, an argument is mounted in this article that December 25 was indeed the actual birth of Jesus:
So exactly where did Christmas come from? World Scope Encyclopedia (1960 vol.3) states, "Christmas, the festival observed by the Christian Church on the 25th day of December in commemoration of the birth of Jesus Christ. No certain knowledge of the birthday of Jesus Christ exists and its observance was not established until some time after the organization of the first churches. The 25th day of December was advocated by Julius 1, Bishop of Rome from 337 to 352, as the most suitable time to commemorate the birth of Christ. The day was finally placed on December 25th, which made it possible for all nations to observe a festival of rejoicing that the shortest day of the year has passed. Moreover, the newly converted peoples found it convenient to get a kind of substitute for their original celebrations of the solstice". The birth of Jesus the Christ was assigned the date of December 25th, because on this day, as the sun began its return to the northern skies, the pagan devotees of Mithra celebrated the dies natalis Solis Invicti (birthday of the invincible sun). The history book a Pictorial History of the Italian People states, "Saint Gregory was repelled by Graeco-Roman civilization and, paradoxically, did more than anyone else to facilitate the absorption of pagan residues into Italian Christianity. Through that process of absorption, any paganism hostile to Christianity remaining in Italian rural communities faded away". Check your history, you'll find that the customs associated with Christmas were celebrated some 2000 years before Jesus.

But if we got Christmas from the Roman Catholics, and they got it from paganism, where did the pagans get it? Where, when, and what was its real origin? It started and originated in the original Bablyhon of ancient Nimrod. Nimrod, grandson of Ham, son of Noah built the tower of Babel. Nimrod married his own mother, whose name is Semiramis. After Nimrod's, Semiramis claimed a full grown evergreen tree sprang overnight from a dead tree stump, which symbolized the springing forth unto new life of the dead Nimrod. On each anniversary of his birth, she claimed Nimrod would visit the evergreen tree and leave gifts upon it. December 25th was the birthday of Nimrod. This is the real origin of the Christmas tree.

Through her scheming and designing, Semiramis became the Babylonia "Queen of Heaven," and Nimrod, under various names, became the "divine son of heaven." Through the generations, in this idolatrius worship, Nimrod also became the false Messiah, son of Baal the Sun-god. In this false Bablyhonish system, the "Mother and Child" (Semiramis and Nimrod reborn) became chief objects of worship. This worship of "Mother and Child" spread over the world. The names varied in different countries and languages. In Egypt it was Isis and Osiris. In Asia, Cybele and Deoius. In pagan Rome, Fortuna and Jupiterpuer. Even in Greece, China, Japan, Tibet is to be found the counterpart of the Madonna, long before the birth of Christ. The Lord God of Israel made reference to the worshiping and sacrificing to the "Queen of Heaven" in Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
 
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Bro.T

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Wait, do you disagree with Communion as well? That's really wild. It's one of the most ancient and universal of Christian practices.

Does your church celebrate Communion at all, or just once a year at Passover, or never? With the exception of the Society of Friends, I don't know any Christian groups that reject Communion (and the Friends' reasoning is quite different from yours). What kind of church do you attend, may I ask? What persuaded you to join them?
The plan of God is outlined in Leviticus chapter 23. When we begin to read this chapter we will find the Lord's weekly Sabbath and also the Lord's High and Holy Days. Each High Day has a very important meaning, and if you are familiar with them you simply know the plan of God. These Holydays represent the future and present time, and are a shadow of good things to come, meaning some of these Holy Days have not came yet.

Leviticus 23:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, (verse 2) Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

Look at verse 2. Does it state the feast of the Jews, or the Feast of the Lord? These feasts are holy gatherings. These feasts are not a request, they are commandments.

Leviticus 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

Notice, once again the book states these are the feasts of the Lord, and they are Holy gatherings and must be observed in their season. We cannot observe these days when we get ready. They must be observed when the Lord says they must be observed. Communion is just another way saying passover and or gathering for the last supper. Just stick with Passover in it's season.
 
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JSRG

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All my sources is good....peace in Jesus name

No, your sources aren't good. I just went through them in detail and pointing out the major problems with them, namely that they make claims that are flatly false. This is why they avoid offering any evidence, because they're made up. Likely the people who made them think they are true, but wherever they got their information from is incorrect. Here it all is again:

Here you are just copying what someone else said. Now, you are giving credit, so that's not the problem, but rather the fact that just because someone else says something, doesn't automatically make it right. What matters is on what basis they say it. So, does this source offer any evidence?




This is just you repeating a claim I already refuted; granted, copied from a different source, but the same claim. Here is the thing: In the first place, it's not clear if there ever was any Eostre. We have only one evidence of Eostre in the historical record, a passing reference that said a month got named after her because there were feasts to her in it. That's it.

So the claim that Eostre--who may not have ever been worshipped to begin with and just been a post hoc guess as to where the name of the month came from--had any involvements with hares is pure speculation. There is zero source that attests to it. This was already pointed out, again, and it needs to be reiterated: Anyone who claims anyting about Eostre that Bede didn't say (and he didn't say much) is offering speculation.

Your article digs itself even deeper by making the even more ridiculous "In Germanic mythology, it is said that Ostara healed a wounded bird she found in the woods by changing it into a hare." This is flatly false, unless by "in Germanic mythology" it means "in wild speculations of the last century or two." Do you want to know the first mention of Ostara in the historical record? She is first mentioned in the 19th century when Jacob Grimm, trying to find evidence for Eostre (because there is nothing beyond Bede's brief reference) speculated that there was an Ostara who was a Germanic goddess who was Eostre's counterpart. This was a speculation on his part. Keep that in mind: The entire existence of this goddess was a speculation.

Now, if the goddess's very existence is a speculation of a 19th century writer, how in the world could there be any stories in German mythology about her healing a wounded bird? The answer is rather obvious: There aren't any such stories. The story the article puts forward is completely made up.

This is why no sources--let alone any primary sources--are cited. Because, again, these claims are made up. This is the sort of error that makes one wonder why they should take seriously anything in the article if it's going to mess things up this badly.

One might as well declare that Easter eggs and Easter bunnies come from the fact Jesus had a pet bunny and at the Last Supper painted an egg, and that is the source of these traditions. This claim actually stands on better ground than the Ostara story, surprisingly enough, because we have the Gospels as references to Jesus from the first century, whereas even the entire idea of Ostara was a total speculation from the 19th century.



Here, at least, we see a source cited (the Encyclopedia Britannica), though one can't help but be a bit annoyed about its lack of specificity as to which edition is being cited. It's also not a primary citation, or even something else citing a primary citation.

In the first place, the fact one can find pagans using eggs does not offer any connection between it and Easter eggs, for several reasons. First off, eggs are sort of a thing a lot of people use; one might as well decry the Jewish sacrifices at the Temple as being pagan because pagans did sacrifices. So a simple use or reference to an egg means nothing; it has to be something that actually bears real similarity to Easter eggs, and happened in a time and place that could have plausibly influenced the practice.

Which now brings us to the one thing that bears any kind of actual resemblance, the claim that the ancient Egyptians and Persians "had also the custom of colouring and eating eggs during their spring festival." Unfortunately, the Encyclopedia Britannica cites no source... or if it does, it's not specified by the article (which as noted does not specify which edition it is even referring to). The Encyclopedia Britannica is normally reliable, but there are still errors in it, so it's important to see its sources if possible. So I'm very skeptical of this claim. If it is true, then all someone has to do is offer a primary source for it to prove it.

But let's suppose that the statement about them painting eggs is true (again, I would really like to see a primary source for this). It is ambiguous as to what it means by "ancient" but we run into the obvious problem that Easter eggs by all appearances are a creation from around the 11th century--certainly no one has ever been able to show any reference to them before that time--which poses a major problem for the idea they took it from the Egyptians and Persians, namely the fact this practice would have died out a long time prior to when it was used in Easter, so no connection is plausible. And that is, I want to assume, even assuming this claim is true to begin with.

So not as bad as the previous section in that at least it's not claiming things that are so blatantly false, but it's still without evidence, and even if true, no connection seems possible. The actual source of the Easter Egg is most likely that people started doing it so they could use the eggs for something during Lent, when they couldn't eat the eggs.



It is hard to know where to start with the errors here. Eostre--assuming, again, there ever was any Eostre--was an English deity, not a Norse one. There is no evidence whatsoever she had anything to do with Astarte. There is zero evidence that Eostre was involved at all with cakes, and even if she was, there could be no connection between hot cross buns as they are a creation of the 17th or 18th century, long after any such cake tradition had died out. So this source is just spouting nonsense.


This last portion is a little hard to parse out as to what is being quoted from what. But again, as there is no evidence of any connection between Eostre and Astarte outside of imagination, this means nothing either. Certainly, this indicates that "The Encyclopedia Last Two Millions" is a pretty poor source if it's repeating these inaccurate claims that have no actual basis.

None of your sources you offer appear able to offer any evidence whatsoever of their claims. That's because, once again, there is no evidence of so much of this. Some people offered wild speculations and then other people just copied those speculations as if they were fact, sometimes adding speculations on top of them which were in turn copied by others. Sometimes these errors, unfortunately, make it into encyclopedias who should know better.

So once again, we end up without evidence for so many of these claims, because, once again... there isn't evidence. That's why it's never provided.

It is distressing to see you, after I pointed out the problems and how there is not evidence for the claims you copied, just see you offer the same quotes from the same sources over again, as if I hadn't just before now pointed out the errors. Did you offer actual evidence, such as a single primary source? No. You just offered the same inaccurate sources all over again with no additional evidence. (you then went on to go on for a bit about something else and while your claims there have issues, it has nothing to do with what we were discussing, so I'll skip over the part not related to Easter)

The problem is is, you don't have actual evidence--that is, actual primary sources--for these claims. You just have inaccurate claims from people who don't offer evidence, which makes sense because there is not evidence for these claims of yours. But it is indeed puzzling to, when confronted with this fact, you do nothing more other than just re-post the same sources done before.

To once again say what I have noted twice in regards to your posts (the last one being here):

"It feels like trying to interact with a bot account--they can do little more than mindlessly copy other people's statements, and then are unable to interact properly with other people's responses due to not being human. If you are human, it would be nice if you would not spout off incorrect claims that there is no evidence for, especially after it has been pointed out to you that they are incorrect and there appears to be no evidence for them."
 
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Hentenza

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All my sources is good....peace in Jesus name


Easter and Its Connection to Passover

The Ancient Pagan Origins of Easter | Ancient Origins

Easter is associated with the Jewish festival of Passover through its symbolism and meaning, as well as its position in the calendar. Some early Christians chose to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus on the same date as Passover, which reflects Easter having entered Christianity during its earliest Jewish period. Evidence of a more developed Christian festival of Easter emerged around the mid-second century.

In 325 AD, Emperor Constantine convened a meeting of Christian leaders to resolve important disputes at the Council of Nicaea. Since the church believed that the resurrection took place on a Sunday, the Council determined that Easter should always fall on the first Sunday after the first full moon following the vernal equinox. Easter has since remained without a fixed date but proximate to the full moon, which coincided with the start of Passover.

While there are distinct differences between the celebrations of Pesach and Easter, both festivals celebrate rebirth – in Christianity through the resurrection of Jesus, and in Jewish traditions through the liberation of the Israelites from slavery.

The Origins of Easter customs

The most widely-practiced customs on Easter Sunday relate to the symbol of the rabbit (‘Easter bunny’) and the egg. As outlined previously, a hare was a symbol associated with Eostre, representing the beginning of Springtime. Likewise, the egg has come to represent Spring, fertility, and renewal. In Germanic mythology, it is said that Ostara healed a wounded bird she found in the woods by changing it into a hare. Still partially a bird, the hare showed its gratitude to the goddess by laying eggs as gifts.

The Encyclopedia Last Two Millions Pg. 216: “Pagan Rites Absorbed”

Easter, for instance, a time of sacrifice and rebirth in the Christian year, takes its name from the Norse goddess Eostre, in whose honor rites were held every spring. She in turn was simply a Northern version of the Phoenicians earth-mother Astarte, goddess of fertility. Easter eggs continue an-old age tradition in which the egg is a symbol of birth; and cakes which were eating to mark the festival of Astarte and Eostre where the direct ancestor of our hot-cross buns.

The Encyclopedia Last Two Millions Pg. 84 “Belief that made a nation”

The Phoenicians, important though their achievement were as migrant traders and colonizers, seem to have developed a little conception nationhood. But the Hebrews or Jews, with relatively small in numbers though they were saw themselves from the start as a distant people because of their believe in Yahweh or Jehovah the only God. Orgiastic rites; devotees of Astarte were stimulated by music, wine and incense.

Hx. Book: Last 2Mil Yrs. Pg 216 & 84 "Pagan Rites Absorbed" The Catholic Church established churches where temples to pagan gods use to be. Easter/Eastra– heathen festival – easter – hot

cross buns

ORIGIN OF SUNDAY WORSHIP

Ample evidence from history shows that the celebration of Sunday originated from pagan practices of SUN WORSHIP. In March of 321 A.D., the Roman Emperor Constantine, who was at first a sun-worshiper and later a Christian convert, issued the first decree declaring Sunday to be a legal day of rest. In 336 A.D., the Roman Catholic Church officially changed the observance of Sabbath to Sunday for political and economic expediency. Since then, the original Sabbath gradually gave way to Sunday observance and the practice remains to this day.

The Catholic authorities proclaim: "The Bible says, 'Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.' The Catholic Church says, No! By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day, and command you to keep the first day of the week. And lo, the entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church!" Father Enright, C.S.S.R. of the Redemptoral College, Kansas City, Mo., as taken from History of the Sabbath. pg. 802

The Biblical Sabbath, however, is and has always been on the seventh day of the week, or Saturday. Despite the prevalence of Sunday worship in Christendom, we must look to the Bible as our authority and keep the seventh day Sabbath ordained by God.
Ancient Origins is a secular website and does not have any Christians on their staff. Most of them are IT professionals or are in other fields. None of them have Christian history or theological training or even profess being Christians. I’m going to go with the early Christian father’s testimony and other Christian sources. It amazes me that as legalistic as you are and your professing of sola scriptura you would consider this source to be legit and reliable.
 
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JSRG

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So exactly where did Christmas come from? World Scope Encyclopedia (1960 vol.3) states, "Christmas, the festival observed by the Christian Church on the 25th day of December in commemoration of the birth of Jesus Christ. No certain knowledge of the birthday of Jesus Christ exists and its observance was not established until some time after the organization of the first churches. The 25th day of December was advocated by Julius 1, Bishop of Rome from 337 to 352, as the most suitable time to commemorate the birth of Christ. The day was finally placed on December 25th, which made it possible for all nations to observe a festival of rejoicing that the shortest day of the year has passed. Moreover, the newly converted peoples found it convenient to get a kind of substitute for their original celebrations of the solstice".

Well, in the first place, looking into the work, multiple sentences are cut out from your quote... without any ellipsis to show they were cut out.

But there are some errors in this. Unfortunately, there have been some notable errors about this issue of Christmas's date that were even being repeated in encyclopedias this late. For example, the claim that it was "advocated" by Julius is, from what I can tell, without historical foundation... I am not aware of any historical record from that period that says such a thing, or at least no one ever points to. It sounds more like the fact that the first certain Christmas celebration is dated to the 330's and then someone tried to later on just assume Julius referneced it.

The birth of Jesus the Christ was assigned the date of December 25th, because on this day, as the sun began its return to the northern skies, the pagan devotees of Mithra celebrated the dies natalis Solis Invicti (birthday of the invincible sun).

This is not part of your quote, and it's where we run into several issues that, while repeatedly made, have big issues with them. These claims were, unfortunately, even repeated in various scholarly material, though fortunately the proper knowledge is catching up.

The evidence that the "pagan devotees of Mithras" had any special affinity for December 25 is scant indeed. This article goes through the issue:

The "Dies Natalis Solis Invicti" had nothing to do with Mithras, and was actually a festival of the god Sol. There was some overlap between the two to be fair, but it was about Sol, not Mithras. But someone could say that even if it was Sol rather than Mithras, that doesn't change things much. On the whole no, but it shows the out of date nature of your claim. However, even in regards to Sol, the claim that it was chosen because of the Sol festival has issues. Namely, the fact there is no reference to this celebration prior to the celebration of Christmas.

One possibility for the first mention of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti comes from what is called the Chronograph of 354. On one page, it mentions how on December 25, there were chariot races in honor of "N Invicti" (Natalis Invicti, meaning Birthday of the Invincible). But is this a reference to Dies Natalis Solis Invicti? No mention of Sol occurs, only "Natalis Invicti" even though other things are explicitly said to be held in honor of Sol. Steven Hijmanns put forward an argument that this is not in any reference to any Sol celebration at all, and the first reference only comes later on, and this argument is discussed here:

After that, we have a reference in 362 by Emperor Julian--sometimes called Julian the Apostate due to his attempt to return the Roman Empire to paganism--referring to a Sol celebration on December 25.

Here is where we come to the big issue. The Chronograph of 354--in a portion usually dated to the 330's--mentions Christmas. It's right here, on December 25 ("VIII kal. Ian." meaning the 8th of the kalends of January was the needlessly convoluted way they said December 25 back then). Do you see the problem? The first reference to Christmas is in the same document that is the first references to Solis Invicti. But again, this is the same document--and, indeed, a portion of the document dated to being earlier than the one mentioning Natalis Invicti--so this provides no evidence that any Natalis Invicti was celebrated prior to Christmas. And this is assuming the 354 reference is to Sol anyway.

One thing appealed to sometimes to show an earlier start of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti is that Aurelian apparently dedicated a temple to Sol on December 25 of 274, which puts it before the 330's celebration of Christmas... but as noted in the above link, there is no mention of any holiday to Sol occurring as a result, so this is speculative. Thus, believe it or not, despite how common a statement that Christmas was just taken from Dies Natalis Solis Invicti was, there is no clear reference to Dies Natalis Solis Invicti prior to that of Christmas, despite it being such a common talking point. It is therefore entirely possible that, if there was any copying at all, it was Dies Natalis Solis Invicti copying Christmas.

Even if we were to suppose that Aurelian did set up a Sol Invictus festival in that year to be celebrated on December 25--which is again speculative--it should be noted there are references--even if disputed--to Jesus's birth being December 25 prior to even that. For example, there are references to a December 25 birth for Jesus in Hippolytus's Commentary on Daniel (this is one of disputed ones as to whether it is original, but Thomas Schmidt makes what seems a good argument for its originality here).

But the bottom line is simple: There is no reference to a Dies Natalis Solis Invicti on December 25 prior to when we know Christmas was celebrated on December 25. Could it have dated back further? Possibly. But that's speculative, and Christmas could have gone back further also. Thus, bottom line: The claim that Christmas was taken from any celebration of Sol or Mithras rests on shaky foundations.

The history book a Pictorial History of the Italian People states, "Saint Gregory was repelled by Graeco-Roman civilization and, paradoxically, did more than anyone else to facilitate the absorption of pagan residues into Italian Christianity. Through that process of absorption, any paganism hostile to Christianity remaining in Italian rural communities faded away". Check your history, you'll find that the customs associated with Christmas were celebrated some 2000 years before Jesus.

Even if we were to accept this claim--evidence and examples are not provided--unless one can point to the specific practices that were incorporated, and show they were incorporated at a time when the pagans were doing it (most modern Christmas practices actually developed long after paganism was gone), this odesn't mean anything.

This must be stressed. If someone is going to claim that "pagans did this thing and that's where Christians took it from" one must provide evidence of the following:
1) Evidence that the pagans actually did this
2) Evidence that the pagans did this at a time and place where Christians could have known about it
3) Evidence that Christians adopted those practices at the time and plae where they could have known about it
4) Evidence that the pagan practice predates the Christian practice

Now, up until this point your claims have, while problematic, still largely based on things that one can find actual historians say in the past. It may be out of date in regards to scholarship, but it isn't completely made up or anything. That changes with the next section:

But if we got Christmas from the Roman Catholics, and they got it from paganism, where did the pagans get it? Where, when, and what was its real origin? It started and originated in the original Bablyhon of ancient Nimrod. Nimrod, grandson of Ham, son of Noah built the tower of Babel. Nimrod married his own mother, whose name is Semiramis. After Nimrod's, Semiramis claimed a full grown evergreen tree sprang overnight from a dead tree stump, which symbolized the springing forth unto new life of the dead Nimrod. On each anniversary of his birth, she claimed Nimrod would visit the evergreen tree and leave gifts upon it. December 25th was the birthday of Nimrod. This is the real origin of the Christmas tree.

All of this is entirely made up. I know I say that about a bunch of things you claim, but only because it's true. It's why no evidence is offered by you or your sources. If it is true, then offer the evidence. Show the primary sources! Show us anyone in the time of the Bayblonians or even time shortly after them that makes any reference! But people don't, because that evidence doesn't exist. And this claim of Nimrod and Semiramis is historically impossible. Semiramis was a legendary figure, but one based on Shammuramat, who lived in the 9th/8th centuries BC. How precisely could she marry Nimrod when Nimrod would have lived over a thousand years beforehand? Was time travel involved?

Further, even if we were to suppose that this claim of yours was true, Christmas trees did not emerge until around the 16th century or so. Some long-dead Babylonian tradition (which there is no actual evidence for) could not have possibly influenced it.

More useful information here:

So while your article starts with some claims that, while out of date, at least were things reasonable people were saying in the past, this final portion is just nonsense.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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In the scriptures it's written in Psalm 147: 18 He sendeth out his word, and melteth them: He causeth his wind to blow, and the waters flow. 19 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, His statutes and his judgments unto Israel. 20 He hath not dealt so with any nation:And as for his judgments, they have not known them.

What christian leaders are you talking about, according to the word of God, he only dealt with Israel! Pay Attention to who you are following.
The New Testament has Jesus promise to be with the disciples and their successors until the end of the ages. Jesus also promises to reveal all things to them. So, what you've written is just nonsense.
 
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The plan of God is outlined in Leviticus chapter 23. When we begin to read this chapter we will find the Lord's weekly Sabbath and also the Lord's High and Holy Days. Each High Day has a very important meaning, and if you are familiar with them you simply know the plan of God. These Holydays represent the future and present time, and are a shadow of good things to come, meaning some of these Holy Days have not came yet.

Leviticus 23:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, (verse 2) Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

Look at verse 2. Does it state the feast of the Jews, or the Feast of the Lord? These feasts are holy gatherings. These feasts are not a request, they are commandments.

Verse 2 says "Speak unto the children of Israel", so it's describing the feasts that Israel will be observing.

The religious group that you belong to, and whose views you've been sketching out for us, is new to me, and I'm actually interested in knowing more about your beliefs and practices. You've quoted from The Israel of God before; is that the group you belong to? I gather that you follow the laws of the Torah faithfully -- you keep kosher, you observe the feasts and fasts described in the Old Testament, you rest on the Sabbath, and so on; is that correct?

Are there any specifically Christian observances that you include in your practice of faith? It sounds like you disapprove of most Christian holidays and that you do not celebrate Communion except during Passover. Does your group baptize new members?

I realize I don't know what word to use to describe your group. Can I use the word "church" for your group? Do you consider yourselves to be a Christian church, or a branch of Judaism, or a different religion altogether, or something else? Your profile describes you as Christian, so I assume you intend to be practicing Christianity, even though you reject much of Christian tradition.

I enjoy interfaith dialogues, so if I think of our conversation in those terms, I'd like to learn more about your church/faith group.
 
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