Is Tithing even necessary?

timothyu said:

Meaning in Europe the government supports churches while in the US churches support the government?

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No. Meaning in Europe the government supports churches while in the US the government doesn't.

Well in Europa the Church created the earthly kingdoms

Larniavc said:

UK.

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Well, the UK does have an official state church.

The US does not.

Historically giving and providing for those in need by those with the means has been regarded as a Christian moral obligation. Not tithing, but giving. This has been the moral foundation for the historic Christian criticism against the hoarding of wealth. With the notable caveat that this criticism has not always been consistent, and the interplay between Church and politics has at times resulted in justifying power and wealth accumulation rather than how it ought to be. Though there has also been a long history of moral reformers who have rose up to remind the Church of her sacred obligation toward those in need.

"For if what you’ve claimed were true, that you have kept from your youth the commandment of love, and have given to each person as much as to yourself, how has it come to you, this abundance of money? For it takes wealth to care for the needy: a little paid out for the necessity of each person you take on, and all at once everything gets parceled out, and is spent upon them. Thus, the man who loves his neighbor as himself will have acquired no more than what his neighbor has; whereas you, visibly, have acquired a lot. Where has this come from? Or is it not clear, that it comes from making your private enjoyment more important than helping other people? Therefore, however much you exceed in wealth, so much so do you fall short in love: else long since you’d have taken care to be divorced from your money, if you had loved your neighbor. But now your money sticks to you closer than the limbs of your body, and he who would separate you from it grieves you more than someone who would cut off your vital parts. For if you had clothed the naked, if you had given your bread to the hungry, if you had opened your doors to every stranger, if you’d become a father to orphans, if you had suffered together with all the powerless, what possessions would now be causing you despondency? Why should you now be upset to put aside what’s left, when you’d long since have taken care to distribute these things to the needy?" - St. Basil the Great, Homily To the Rich

Why tithe to a church? That is not acting in servitude to each other.

NBB said:

Tithing is no where to be found in the NT, they donated even houses sometimes, but
the bible says that you give from the generosity of your heart and not for obligation.
I don't like some churches say you are going to be less blessed etc if you don't tithe.
However i met God by tithing, so i would think that he blesses giving.

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Agreed!
Examine the great examples given us:
2 Corinthians 8
2 Corinthians 9

Especially 2 Corinthians 8:11-12
and , 2 Corinthians 9:6-8

It’s quite clear it is a cheerful and generous heart God looks for us to have in our giving.
Paul quotes Jesus as saying, it is better to give than to receive.
Paul was told not to forget the poor in his ministry.
Paul ommands the rich to be generous and willing to share.
We can go on quoting such Scripture. However, we are not under compulsion to give. Therefore no OT tithe is in effect. Let God govern your heart in giving.

Some folks have knowledge of more needs to contribute to than others and may then break up their giving while others give a bunch in one area… if our giving is from the heart we can trust God will govern the good distribution and also make pockets of need made know to the giving body of Christ.

throughfierytrial said:

Agreed!
Examine the great examples given us:
2 Corinthians 8
2 Corinthians 9

Especially 2 Corinthians 8:11-12
and , 2 Corinthians 9:6-8

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People don't pay attention to 2 Corinthians 8: 13-15

For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened; but by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may supply their lack, that their abundance also may supply your lack—that there may be equality. As it is written, “He who gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no lack.”

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Americans hate those two verses. I once listened to a pastor on the radio reading that chapter aloud, and he literally skipped over those two verses as though they weren't there. He knew what that word "equality" entailed, and he didn't want to say it.

Not only does Paul stipulate twice that the goal is economic (because for sure he's talking about money) equality among Christians, but he goes even further with the OT reference by mapping the economy of the Church to the economy of the Israelites in the wilderness.

The Israelites did not tithe in the wilderness; they began tithing only after they entered the Promised Land. In the wilderness, they were on the "manna economy." Likewise, the Body of Christ is not yet in our Promised Land. We are still in the wilderness--on the Manna Economy.

God had decreed that each person got only an omer of manna per day. However some collected "much." How much is "much?" More than an omer. Some collected "little." How much is "little?" Less than an omer.

But the scripture says that when all the manna among those who collected more and those who collected less was measured out, everyone had exactly an omer. Some people would say that God just miraculously made all the bowls come out equal. But if that had been the Jewish or Christian understanding at the time, Paul could not have used it as a reference to ask the churches to share. Someone would have logically said, "Let God fill their bowls miraculously." No, Paul understood that each of the Israelites got their omer because those who collected much redistributed their manna to those who collected little.

RDKirk said:

People don't pay attention to 2 Corinthians 8: 13-15



Americans hate those two verses. I once listened to a pastor on the radio reading that chapter aloud, and he literally skipped over those two verses as though they weren't there. He knew what that word "equality" entailed, and he didn't want to say it.

Not only does Paul stipulate twice that the goal is economic (because for sure he's talking about money) equality among Christians, but he goes even further with the OT reference by mapping the economy of the Church to the economy of the Israelites in the wilderness.

The Israelites did not tithe in the wilderness; they began tithing only after they entered the Promised Land. In the wilderness, they were on the "manna economy." Likewise, the Body of Christ is not yet in our Promised Land. We are still in the wilderness--on the Manna Economy.

God had decreed that each person got only an omer of manna per day. However some collected "much." How much is "much?" More than an omer. Some collected "little." How much is "little?" Less than an omer.

But the scripture says that when all the manna among those who collected more and those who collected less was measured out, everyone had exactly an omer. Some people would say that God just miraculously made all the bowls come out equal. But if that had been the Jewish or Christian understanding at the time, Paul could not have used it as a reference to ask the churches to share. Someone would have logically said, "Let God fill their bowls miraculously." No, Paul understood that each of the Israelites got their omer because those who collected much redistributed their manna to those who collected little.

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Hello and greetings!

I understand your concerns and thoughts; I believe so anyway.

However, reflect further ton he miraculous nature of God's provision of equity as many do, including myself. All went out gathering manna with good intentions of obeying God's command, yet some fell short of the required measure while others had surplus and yet all had what was required.

We know the Isrealites were to care for the poor among them...this was stipulated in various laws like not going over their fields twice, etc to leave it for the poor and widows and aliens and even the wild animals. Obedience to these types of laws provided an equity that does not equate with equal means for both parties. I am understanding your post to mean you interpret it as materially equal outcome. Only God can provide that, in my view. For instance God spreads His spiritual gifts out in differing proportions to different members of His body, yet, same outcome... they all inherit eternal life. On the order of the greatest is the least and the least is the greatest.

We know Paul speaks of giving and generosity, the rich and the poor. He speaks to those who are idlers warning them to work hard using their hands so they may earn their own bread and to have something to share. Jesus speaks of hoarders of wealth such as the parable of the rich man storing away in barns as a danger to his soul. We give with the goal of providing equity among the churches, I interpret. The necessary supply is in the perception of the giver, and this is a product of a Christian's wisdom as pertains to money and economy as well as his heart and soul...does he perceive himself, truly and honestly, to be giving generously and in keeping with his income and does he have true concern for the needs of his brothers. God only knows the heart. This is not to imply that there is no time or place to do some educating as well as warning against making this earth their home rather than building their treasures in heaven.

Scripture directly states that we are not under compulsion to give and we should be generous and cheerful givers. I believe this attribute grows with Christian maturity and I base this on passages like James 1:9-11 You see from these passages that the rich lose their "luster" once their view changes to build their treasures in heaven not in this world.

Are we thinking alike or not?

Like one person said, all we have is God's.... and we give some back to Him for His work. Not many give 10% but if some didn't we could not pay our bills. Our Diocese pays the Priest, we used to pay part of the priest's salary but we no longer can afford to. We are supposed to pay money to the head church to help with expenses but we cannot pay much at this time. They are talking about closing our church down. We do have some people who do not belong to our church that give, we have 4 denominations in town, so how can we expect all to donate to our church? Only two churches are up and running, although one needs a guest pastor to come in from another town at this time, and it is not every week.
I am grateful that all our local bills were paid, but is it enough when we owe the head church? they want a tithe, money for Synod travel, and money to help with expenses including the minister's salary.

A preacher on Tik Tok addressed this and stated that where tithing was mentioned, in Malachi e.g., it was referring to the priests and situation of the churches they led at that time. There were no social services for the poor, foreigners, widows and orphans so the church was responsible for taking care of the more vulnerable in society and they did this with the assistance of those who attended the church.

He stated that we should tithe towards facilities we use or programs, but there is no obligation to tithe a certain amount, or even at all because the purpose of tithing in the bible was different to what we do today.

I don't know if that's true or not, because I haven't delved into this subject at depth (I'm delving in so much at the minute, my head is spinning, but I will get to this also, God willing) but thought I'd share the perspective so someone else more knowledgeable can chime in if they deem it appropriate.

Necessary?
Only if our intent is to rob our Heavenly Father.

All that we possess is Gods, and should be available to Him to be used for His purposes to whatever degree He so desires.

Luke81718 said:

Necessary?
Only if our intent is to rob our Heavenly Father.

All that we possess is Gods, and should be available to Him to be used for His purposes to whatever degree He so desires.

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The preacher states that the 'robbing of God' was not directed to us, in perpetuity, but to the church elders who were doing exactly that in Malachi so the statement and rebuke is contextual to a certain time, people and place.

I can find the link for that explanation if you're interested.

ChubbyCherub said:

A preacher on Tik Tok addressed this and stated that where tithing was mentioned, in Malachi e.g., it was referring to the priests and situation of the churches they led at that time.

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Malachi is OT, so there were no churches.
The Hebrews were told to tithe, yes; but it was always food. When they had taken 10% of their food to the temple to be blessed, they say down and ate it - not forgetting to include the poor, and the priests who had no allotments.

ChubbyCherub said:

He stated that we should tithe towards facilities we use or programs, but there is no obligation to tithe a certain amount, or even at all

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Tithe means a tenth. So if someone is giving 15% or 5%, it's not a tithe.

The NT pattern is that believers shared everything. That said, Paul said that each should give what they, in their heart, has decided to give.
So no, 10% is not compulsory.

Luke81718 said:

Necessary?
Only if our intent is to rob our Heavenly Father.

All that we possess is Gods, and should be available to Him to be used for His purposes to whatever degree He so desires.

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Exactly.
But it's not "robbing God" to put less than 10% in the collection plate. Just as, someone should not feel they are doing God a favour by giving 12%, 20% or 31.5%.

These days, many of us give in other ways - e.g. volunteering, sponsored events, making cakes, or crafts, and not charging for materials.
Charities, and I suggest, the church, would be lost without their volunteers and bankrupt if they had to pay us for what we do.

Strong in Him said:

Malachi is OT, so there were no churches.
The Hebrews were told to tithe, yes; but it was always food. When they had taken 10% of their food to the temple to be blessed, they say down and ate it - not forgetting to include the poor, and the priests who had no allotments.

Tithe means a tenth. So if someone is giving 15% or 5%, it's not a tithe.

The NT pattern is that believers shared everything. That said, Paul said that each should give what they, in their heart, has decided to give.
So no, 10% is not compulsory.

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This is true, and this is very heavy.

The New Testament pushes us beyond a written-rule based framework. We're not saying the written rules of the OT don't matter, but they are not the instrument of New Testament morality.

Under the New Testament, the bar is much higher than mere compliance with written rules.

For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened; but by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may supply their lack, that their abundance also may supply your lack--that there may be equality. As it is written, “He who gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no lack.”

We can't just say, "I've given 10%, I've done my duty."

Our duty is to satisfy all needs, especially within the Body of Christ.

One pastor has said, "The Body of Christ worldwide gathers enough resources every day to satisfy the needs of the Body of Christ worldwide. We have all the resources already in our hands to ensure every member of the Body of Christ is fed, clothed, and housed.

I'm in the UK and have not often heard sermons on tithing.

Not all churches in the UK have Government funding. However, as with all charities, tax payers can Gift Aid so the church gets a further 25% on the tithe of tax payers. If we don't tithe how can churches pay their bills, minister to the community and reach the lost?

Necessary for who or what purpose? What comes to mind is throughout the OT Israel tithed more than 10%. All in all, probably around 60+% though some of the "offerings" weren't under compulsion of the Law. I believe when the church of Acts came together and provided for everybody's needs that was the lesson for Israel that came into fruition in Christendom.
Personally, I believe poverty is difficult to come by in the U.S. today. Poverty is from poor decision making, indulgences, abuses, and lack of financial management. If anybody has food and shelter, they should learn to be content. The government very much takes care of those things today.
As for Missions and Evangelism I have to say, "whatever that means!" Seems today most of the missions and evangelism are field trips on the expense of the congregation and aren't necessary. There are exceptions though, but I rarely ever see them as necessity. For example, sending people to some remote location in Africa and donating all kinds of "shoe boxes" full of capitalist junk or digging wells. Sometimes I wonder whether tribes there consider how long America has been around and how long "their" people have survived.

rebornfree said:

I'm in the UK and have not often heard sermons on tithing.

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Me neither.
I see you're in the NW by the way; me too.

rebornfree said:

If we don't tithe how can churches pay their bills, minister to the community and reach the lost?

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A tithe is 10%. If Christians have decided that is what they want to give, they should.
But tithing, in the OT, was always food. So for a church to say that their members should tithe Biblically and then talk about 10% of income to be given to the church, is incorrect.

"IF" the Levites do not exist neither does the tithe for all intents and purposes.

The lesson of the rich young man is mentioned in the video and I believe it is best presented in Matthew 19:16-30,The Lord told him plainly to keep the commandments & that it is never a done deal as long as we live.

This is our individual relationship with the Lord which I believe St. Paul shows us in Romans 13:1-14 ( note verses 8-10). The Lord gave us the basic ways to exercise the commandments with charity & prayer ( Matthew 6:1-13). If a person is poor then just prayer of course.

I think the golden rule ( Matthew 7:1-12) guides me as to best share the Gospel so i don’t get misguided in telling others about sacrifice that I know I have no qualifications to speak about. I am a single working class American sinner ( Romans 3:23)

Personally , I believe a person can still tithe within the framework of grace, faith, justification, salvation ( Romans 1:16-17, Ephesians 2:8-10, John 3:16-21 etc.).Whatever we do, the Lord wants us to do something according to His commandments ( Matthew 22:36-40 etc).

I think as long as we avoid misconceptions like the rich young man as having “kept”the commandments, pride in ourselves ( Luke 18:9-14) etc. We realize the Lord wants us to do something & never exalt ourselves ( Luke 17:5-10. I believe we must read scripture like Mark 8:31-38 etc) carefully in light of all this.