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Jesus celebrated the Feast of Dedication (aka Hanukkah and Festival of Lights) even though it was a man-made feast, This man-made feast was pleasing to God. 1 Maccabees 4:59.......I mention Christmas and Easter. Neither one is written in the Bible to do, so that means it comes from an out source tradition created by man. ......
No I haven't and I apologies about that, also I haven't post Christmas or Easter historically without source since. I find it problematic that you are continuing to assert old matters because I mention Christmas and Easter.
"Old matters"? The Easter stuff from a week ago in this very topic. That's not old. The Christmas discussion was a little older, but still in this topic and less than a month ago.
And the problem is that you have such a recurring tendency to post claims, have people point out there's not evidence for these and in fact evidence against, and then rather than give a real response, you typically just change the subject or don't respond at all. Now, I usually am pretty lenient on people dropping a subject and not replying. Everyone has things to do, and arguing with strangers on the Internet is for a lot of people a lower one. The problem comes that, after your points have been rebutted, you come back and make the claim all over again as if none of that had happened. That's why I bring up "old matters" (if one week ago is "old"). What I suppose is "old matters" is when I noted your initial post on Easter was mostly just a copy of a post you made a year ago... but there the problem was that even though I went into great detail in pointing out your errors, which you were apparently unable to respond to because you just changed the subject back then, you still post off the exact same errors all over again. And then that happened again here; despite the major problems with your claims that I and others have pointed out, you just make the "pagan" claim again as if that hadn't happened.
Remember, this was how the Easter conversation went (at least by my reckoning, others can certainly weigh in on if they think I have represented it properly).
You: Easter is pagan! Here's a bunch of claims about it that I copied from another site.
Me: No sources or evidence is offered for any of this. and a lot of this is provably false or there is absolutely zero evidence for; also, this is almost identical to something you posted a year ago that I already responded to in detail and which you offered no counter response, so you should know the problems with it already.
You: *ducks giving any response to any of the points raised*
Me: You ducked responding to a single point I raised.
You: *ducks giving any response to any of the points raised again*
Me: You ducked responding to any of the points again.
You gave no additional reply after that. Again, I would have let the matter drop... but then you, one week later, again bring up the claim of Easter being "pagan" even after your errors were demonstrated in such depth and you had no response or evidence. That's why I bring up "old matters" because you keep doing this.
Ok, the feast of Dedication is not a pagan feast.Jesus celebrated the Feast of Dedication (aka Hanukkah and Festival of Lights) even though it was a man-made feast, This man-made feast was pleasing to God. 1 Maccabees 4:59
John 10:22-23 It was the feast of the Dedication at Jerusalem; 23 it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the portico of Solomon.
Where Did Christmas Come From?Christmas (Christ's Mass) is not a pagan festival. It is a Catholic feast day that commemorates the birth of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.
Christians do not celebrate or worship false gods on December 25. Christians worship Jesus, the incarnate Son of God the Father, on December 25. We also worship God the Father and God the Holy Spirit on this feast day. We commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ every December 25th. Was he actually born on December 25? It doesn't matter.
It also doesn't matter what anyone else (pagan or not) celebrates on December 25.
Who makes all the days? God makes/creates all the days; therefore, all the days are good.
How you use each of his good days is what matters to him!
If you use his good day to do good things, he is pleased.
If you use his good day to do evil things, he is displeased.
Worshiping God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) on every December 25th to commemorate the incarnate birth of God's only begotten Son is definitely pleasing to Him.
Easter is associated with the Jewish festival of Passover through its symbolism and meaning, as well as its position in the calendar. Some early Christians chose to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus on the same date as Passover, which reflects Easter having entered Christianity during its earliest Jewish period. [...]
The most widely-practiced customs on Easter Sunday relate to the symbol of the rabbit (‘Easter bunny’) and the egg.
The Ancient Pagan Origins of Easter | Ancient Origins
Easter is associated with the Jewish festival of Passover through its symbolism and meaning, as well as its position in the calendar. Some early Christians chose to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus on the same date as Passover, which reflects Easter having entered Christianity during its earliest Jewish period. Evidence of a more developed Christian festival of Easter emerged around the mid-second century.
In 325 AD, Emperor Constantine convened a meeting of Christian leaders to resolve important disputes at the Council of Nicaea. Since the church believed that the resurrection took place on a Sunday, the Council determined that Easter should always fall on the first Sunday after the first full moon following the vernal equinox. Easter has since remained without a fixed date but proximate to the full moon, which coincided with the start of Passover.
While there are distinct differences between the celebrations of Pesach and Easter, both festivals celebrate rebirth – in Christianity through the resurrection of Jesus, and in Jewish traditions through the liberation of the Israelites from slavery.
The Origins of Easter customs
The most widely-practiced customs on Easter Sunday relate to the symbol of the rabbit (‘Easter bunny’) and the egg. As outlined previously, a hare was a symbol associated with Eostre, representing the beginning of Springtime. Likewise, the egg has come to represent Spring, fertility, and renewal. In Germanic mythology, it is said that Ostara healed a wounded bird she found in the woods by changing it into a hare. Still partially a bird, the hare showed its gratitude to the goddess by laying eggs as gifts.
The Encyclopedia Britannica clearly explains the pagan traditions associated with the egg: “The egg as a symbol of fertility and of renewed life goes back to the ancient Egyptians and Persians, who had also the custom of colouring and eating eggs during their spring festival.” In ancient Egypt, an egg symbolised the sun, while for the Babylonians, the egg represents the hatching of the Venus Ishtar, who fell from heaven to the Euphrates.
The Encyclopedia Last Two Millions Pg. 216: “Pagan Rites Absorbed”
Easter, for instance, a time of sacrifice and rebirth in the Christian year, takes its name from the Norse goddess Eostre, in whose honor rites were held every spring. She in turn was simply a Northern version of the Phoenicians earth-mother Astarte, goddess of fertility. Easter eggs continue an-old age tradition in which the egg is a symbol of birth; and cakes which were eating to mark the festival of Astarte and Eostre where the direct ancestor of our hot-cross buns.
This last portion is a little hard to parse out as to what is being quoted from what. But again, as there is no evidence of any connection between Eostre and Astarte outside of imagination, this means nothing either. Certainly, this indicates that "The Encyclopedia Last Two Millions" is a pretty poor source if it's repeating these inaccurate claims that have no actual basis.The Encyclopedia Last Two Millions Pg. 84 “Belief that made a nation”
The Phoenicians, important though their achievement were as migrant traders and colonizers, seem to have developed a little conception nationhood. But the Hebrews or Jews, with relatively small in numbers though they were saw themselves from the start as a distant people because of their believe in Yahweh or Jehovah the only God. Orgiastic rites; devotees of Astarte were stimulated by music, wine and incense.
Hx. Book: Last 2Mil Yrs. Pg 216 & 84 "Pagan Rites Absorbed" The Catholic Church established churches where temples to pagan gods use to be. Easter/Eastra– heathen festival – easter – hot cross buns
“A Belief that made a nation” The celebration of Eastra/Astarte demanded sacred temple prostitutes, orgiastic rites (orgies), music and incense (weed).
Easter, also known as Pesach, Passover, and Nativity of our Lord has the bible as its origins for customs, such as gold, frankincense, and myrrh as gifts.The Origins of Easter customs
The most widely-practiced customs on Easter Sunday relate to the symbol of the rabbit (‘Easter bunny’) and the egg. As outlined previously, a hare was a symbol associated with Eostre, representing the beginning of Springtime. Likewise, the egg has come to represent Spring, fertility, and renewal. In Germanic mythology, it is said that Ostara healed a wounded bird she found in the woods by changing it into a hare. Still partially a bird, the hare showed its gratitude to the goddess by laying eggs as gifts.
The simple fact is that it does not matter!Where Did Christmas Come From?
World Scope Encyclopedia (1960 vol.3) states, "Christmas, the festival observed by the Christian Church on the 25th day of December in commemoration of the birth of Jesus Christ. No certain knowledge of the birthday of Jesus Christ exists and its observance was not established until some time after the organization of the first churches. The 25th day of December was advocated by Julius 1, Bishop of Rome from 337 to 352, as the most suitable time to commemorate the birth of Christ. The day was finally placed on December 25th, which made it possible for all nations to observe a festival of rejoicing that the shortest day of the year has passed. The end of December was an especially significant time in the northern hemisphere. Days were short; nights long. The sun was at its lowest point. This called for the celebration of special festivals of thanksgiving and encouragement to the waning sun. When at the winter solstice in late December, the days began to lengthen once again, there was great festivity lasting into the first part of January. The reason was that the declining sun---the light of the world--had been reborn and began to gain in strength. Moreover, the newly converted peoples found it convenient to get a kind of substitute for their original celebrations of the solstice ". The birth of Jesus the Christ was assigned the date of December 25th, because on this day, as the sun began its return to the northern skies, the pagan devotees of Mithra (the Persian's Sun God) celebrated the dies natalis Solis Invicti (birthday of the invincible sun).
The history book a Pictorial History of the Italian People states, "Saint Gregory was repelled by Graeco-Roman civilization and, paradoxically, did more than anyone else to facilitate the absorption of pagan residues into Italian Christianity. Through that process of absorption, any paganism hostile to Christianity remaining in Italian rural communities faded away".
The simple fact is that, as more and more people from throughout the Western Roman Empire became converted to an increasingly popular Christianity, they brought many of their favorite customs with them. "The pagan [winter festivals of the] Saturnalia and Brumalia were too deeply entrenched in popular custom to be set aside by Christian influence... The pagan festival with its riot and merrymaking was so popular that Christians were glad of an excuse to continue its celebration with little change in spirit or in manner... Christians of Mesopotamia accused their western brethren of idolatry and sun-worship for adopting as Christian this pagan festival. Yet the festival rapidly gained acceptance and became at last so firmly entrenched that even the Protestant revolution of the sixteenth century was not able to dislodge it..." (The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Volume III, article "Christmas.") You see this going on in churches today. Churches are constantly recruiting new members from other denominations and they often bring some aspect of their previous church to the new one. If you notice, many Christians today celebrate the Roman Catholic tradition of Lent. Historically, Lent, was not celebrated by Protestant churches.
The fact is Jesus was not even born in the winter season. When Jesus was born, "there were shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night." (Luke 2:8). This could never have occurred in Judea in the month of December. The shepherds always brought their flocks from the mountainsides and fields and corralled them no later than October, to protect them from the cold, rainy season that followed. Notice in Songs of Solomon 2:11 and Ezra 10:9, 13, that winter was a rainy season and typically the herds would most likely not be out in the rainy winter season. "It was an ancient custom among Jews of those days to send out their sheep to the fields and deserts about the Passover (early spring), and bring them home at commencement of the first rain," says the Adam Clarke Commentary (Vol. 5, page 370, New York ed.) Continuing, "During the time they were out, the shepherds watched them night and day. As..the first rain began early in the month of Marchesvan, which answers to part of our October and November (begins sometime in October), we find that the sheep were kept out in the open country during the whole summer. And, as these shepherds had not yet brought home their flocks, it is a presumptive argument that October had not yet commenced, and that, consequently, Jesus was not born on December 25th, when no flocks were out in the fields; nor could He have been born later than September, as the flocks were in the fields by night.The simple fact is that it does not matter!
Whether the pagans had or have a festival on December 25 or during the winter solstice, the Christians have and do celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ every year on December 25. It does not matter if Jesus Christ was actually born on December 25 or not. The astronomically darkest day of the year is the winter solstice, usually December 21. God creates all the days of every year. They all belong to him. If the pagans use his day to worship a pagan god, they are misusing God's good day. However, Christians worship the one true God on December 25. They are using God's good day for a good purpose.
I think it is the appropriate time to celebrate the birth of the Light of the world on December 25.
John 9:5
While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
Matthew 4:16
The people who lived in darkness have seen a great light, and for those who dwell in a land darkened by the shadow of death light has dawned.”
You would have to show me some scriptures and verses on that, please. Until then let's focus on staying away from paganism.By the way @Bro.T on the subject of doing things not in the Bible, you know, posting on Internet forums is not in the Bible, right? Nor is the use of cars, telecommunications, air travel, et cetera.
I need to see some resource on that, please.This is one of the most absurd arguments, since the majority of Christians worldwide who celebrate the feast call it Pascha or the fFeast of the Resurrection or the word Pascha adopted to their language. For example, the Dutch call the celebration of the Resurrection Passen, and in English we call it the Passover, for as the Bible makes clear, Christ is our Paschal lamb, and indeed is referred to explicitly as the Lamb of God in Revelation.
Easter is rather a peculiarity of the English language and a few other languages, not all Germanic languages even, for Dutch is a Germanic language and they don’t call the holiday Easter - its rather a bit like how we historically called Pentecost Whitsunday.
Arguments from local variations in nomenclature are logically fallacious and also in this case a Red Herring, since most Christians as noted do not use a word like Easter to refer to the feast.
Also, the idea that the word Easter is connected to a Pagan festival has itself been questioned, but I’m not even interested in engaging with that debate (in part because like most Orthodox Christians I refer to the feast as Pascha or the Resurrection).
Then focus on the Bible term Passover, which is written in the word of God, and that you stay safe....here's why....Let's go into Revelation 20: 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.Easter, also known as Pesach, Passover, and Nativity of our Lord has the bible as its origins for customs, such as gold, frankincense, and myrrh as gifts.
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Of course I copy because I know and understand the different between God and Man. Also neither one of us was born in those days when all these pagan festivals and religion was added or try to be added to the word of God, so of course I'm gonna get my information from history. Even the Bible itself is history, but but now I have a source and you complaining about the facts, is looking like you just have a problem with believing the truth, and that's your problem. At this point I'm not going to go back-and-forth with you about Easter being pagan because now I have shown you source and I prove my opposition on the subject of Easter is being pagan, so this is a belief problem, so if you don't believe it then that's on you, but I'm not going to continue going back-and-forth about it. You ask for a source and you got it!!Here you are just copying what someone else said. Now, you are giving credit, so that's not the problem, but rather the fact that just because someone else says something, doesn't automatically make it right. What matters is on what basis they say it. So, does this source offer any evidence?
This is just you repeating a claim I already refuted; granted, copied from a different source, but the same claim. Here is the thing: In the first place, it's not clear if there ever was any Eostre. We have only one evidence of Eostre in the historical record, a passing reference that said a month got named after her because there were feasts to her in it. That's it.
So the claim that Eostre--who may not have ever been worshipped to begin with and just been a post hoc guess as to where the name of the month came from--had any involvements with hares is pure speculation. There is zero source that attests to it. This was already pointed out, again, and it needs to be reiterated: Anyone who claims anyting about Eostre that Bede didn't say (and he didn't say much) is offering speculation.
Your article digs itself even deeper by making the even more ridiculous "In Germanic mythology, it is said that Ostara healed a wounded bird she found in the woods by changing it into a hare." This is flatly false, unless by "in Germanic mythology" it means "in wild speculations of the last century or two." Do you want to know the first mention of Ostara in the historical record? She is first mentioned in the 19th century when Jacob Grimm, trying to find evidence for Eostre (because there is nothing beyond Bede's brief reference) speculated that there was an Ostara who was a Germanic goddess who was Eostre's counterpart. This was a speculation on his part. Keep that in mind: The entire existence of this goddess was a speculation.
Now, if the goddess's very existence is a speculation of a 19th century writer, how in the world could there be any stories in German mythology about her healing a wounded bird? The answer is rather obvious: There aren't any such stories. The story the article puts forward is completely made up.
This is why no sources--let alone any primary sources--are cited. Because, again, these claims are made up. This is the sort of error that makes one wonder why they should take seriously anything in the article if it's going to mess things up this badly.
One might as well declare that Easter eggs and Easter bunnies come from the fact Jesus had a pet bunny and at the Last Supper painted an egg, and that is the source of these traditions. This claim actually stands on better ground than the Ostara story, surprisingly enough, because we have the Gospels as references to Jesus from the first century, whereas even the entire idea of Ostara was a total speculation from the 19th century.
Here, at least, we see a source cited (the Encyclopedia Britannica), though one can't help but be a bit annoyed about its lack of specificity as to which edition is being cited. It's also not a primary citation, or even something else citing a primary citation.
In the first place, the fact one can find pagans using eggs does not offer any connection between it and Easter eggs, for several reasons. First off, eggs are sort of a thing a lot of people use; one might as well decry the Jewish sacrifices at the Temple as being pagan because pagans did sacrifices. So a simple use or reference to an egg means nothing; it has to be something that actually bears real similarity to Easter eggs, and happened in a time and place that could have plausibly influenced the practice.
Which now brings us to the one thing that bears any kind of actual resemblance, the claim that the ancient Egyptians and Persians "had also the custom of colouring and eating eggs during their spring festival." Unfortunately, the Encyclopedia Britannica cites no source... or if it does, it's not specified by the article (which as noted does not specify which edition it is even referring to). The Encyclopedia Britannica is normally reliable, but there are still errors in it, so it's important to see its sources if possible. So I'm very skeptical of this claim. If it is true, then all someone has to do is offer a primary source for it to prove it.
But let's suppose that the statement about them painting eggs is true (again, I would really like to see a primary source for this). It is ambiguous as to what it means by "ancient" but we run into the obvious problem that Easter eggs by all appearances are a creation from around the 11th century--certainly no one has ever been able to show any reference to them before that time--which poses a major problem for the idea they took it from the Egyptians and Persians, namely the fact this practice would have died out a long time prior to when it was used in Easter, so no connection is plausible. And that is, I want to assume, even assuming this claim is true to begin with.
So not as bad as the previous section in that at least it's not claiming things that are so blatantly false, but it's still without evidence, and even if true, no connection seems possible. The actual source of the Easter Egg is most likely that people started doing it so they could use the eggs for something during Lent, when they couldn't eat the eggs.
It is hard to know where to start with the errors here. Eostre--assuming, again, there ever was any Eostre--was an English deity, not a Norse one. There is no evidence whatsoever she had anything to do with Astarte. There is zero evidence that Eostre was involved at all with cakes, and even if she was, there could be no connection between hot cross buns as they are a creation of the 17th or 18th century, long after any such cake tradition had died out. So this source is just spouting nonsense.
This last portion is a little hard to parse out as to what is being quoted from what. But again, as there is no evidence of any connection between Eostre and Astarte outside of imagination, this means nothing either. Certainly, this indicates that "The Encyclopedia Last Two Millions" is a pretty poor source if it's repeating these inaccurate claims that have no actual basis.
None of your sources you offer appear able to offer any evidence whatsoever of their claims. That's because, once again, there is no evidence of so much of this. Some people offered wild speculations and then other people just copied those speculations as if they were fact, sometimes adding speculations on top of them which were in turn copied by others. Sometimes these errors, unfortunately, make it into encyclopedias who should know better.
So once again, we end up without evidence for so many of these claims, because, once again... there isn't evidence. That's why it's never provided.
Let me just ask you a question why does it bother you so much that you cannot observe the Passover as it's written in the word of God? Why do u have to be press on using Easter to you and you know that Easter carry a pagan religion behind it. You God don't deal with Man's tradition. Didn't Paul say in Colossians 2: 8 B eware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.Thank you for citing your source.
It's odd to me that the Ancient Origins author doesn't mention the most obvious reason to celebrate Easter near the date of Passover: Christians believe that Jesus was crucified during or near the feast of Passover. See, for example, Matthew 26 and John 13.
Are these really the most widely practiced customs, though? All around the world (not just the US and northwestern Europe), and back through the centuries? More common than, say, observing the Lenten fast and then breaking the fast on Easter Sunday? More common than gathering to read the Resurrection story and sing hymns? More common than declaring "Alleluia, Christ is risen!"?
Eggs make some sense to me, at least for Orthodox Christians. If you've had to abstain from eating eggs for weeks, getting to eat them again is a treat. And you might decorate the eggs that your chickens are laying in the meantime, because the chickens don't know it's Lent.
But I think the rabbit thing may be just from German- and English-speaking people in Europe and North America, which is a minority of Christians worldwide. Do you have sources saying that an Easter Bunny figure is also important to African and South American Christians?