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NT texts inspired outside the protestant canon

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The Liturgist

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He should learn Who to direct his prayers to first off. Pro-tip,... it's not The Holy Spirit that is sitting on a throne next to The Father that paid for us by His own blood

All three persons of the Holy Trinity are God, coequal. The Holy Spirit was fully a part of the economy of salvation - He impregnated the Blessed Virgin Mary with Christ, and descended upon the Christians, and is, paradoxically, the person of the Trinity who if you believe you’re doing something divinely inspired, is The one inspirating.

Also I would note Christians have since time immemorial prayed to all three persons of the Trinity since the beginning - which is fine, because they are One God, coequal and coeternal, abiding in the unoriginate essence of the Father, who became incarnate of the Son and who comforts us and indwells us and inspires us by the Holy Spirit.

The idea that directing prayers to the Holy Spirit is somehow inadmissable is frankly neo-Macedonism, crypto-Pneumatomachy, since it appears to deny that the person and hypostasis of the Spirit is coequal with the Father and the Son, and if we discard coequality, the doctrine of the Trinity collapses (and loses Scriptural coherence - the teachings of Macedonius were not rejected on aesthetic grounds, neither did Byzantine theologians fret about the filioque solely because it was novel - the depersonalization of the Holy Spirit that they feared is equivalent to a demotion of the Holy Spirit and the imposition of some sort of divine pecking order in the Trinity, which is problematic from a monotheist perspective in the same way that Eutychian monophysitism proved irreconciable wirh monotheism, so that by the 6th century, the actual monophysites (not the Oriental Orthodox, who are miaphysite, using the precise formula of St. Cyril), could lead to Tritheism.

For this reason I also object to eternal subordinationism and have concerns with Federal Vision theology.
 
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The Liturgist

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For as much as I preach on this site about being disciplined to what scripture actually says instead of following personal beliefs and such,..... you and others would assume that I was talking about writing out an entirely different bible than what we have.

So to be clear you’re doing a new translation, or a paraphrase, or what?
 
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ARBITER01

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So to be clear you’re doing a new translation, or a paraphrase, or what?

I'm doing a revision of the received text for myself, so yes, a new translation,..... for myself.
 
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The Liturgist

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ARBITER01

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From the original Greek?

That's somewhat of a loaded question don't ya think? Which Greek text would be considered original nowadays?

For me, I'm updating an English translation of the received text for myself, I'm not interested in the youtube arguments and debates over Greek texts.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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That's somewhat of a loaded question don't ya think? Which Greek text would be considered original nowadays?

For me, I'm updating an English translation of the received text for myself, I'm not interested in the youtube arguments and debates over Greek texts.
If you are re-translating English text to English, that is a paraphraise.
 
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The Liturgist

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It's for me, and its quite literal as well as readable.

Well, its your time and your first amendment rights, but it seems a bad idea to me - the problem with paraphrases is they can wind up with issues of what a verse ought to mean. Hard sayings like parts of John ch. 6 become easy sayings; verses like 1 Corinthians 11:2 tend to disappear.

There’s also another issue: given that one of the few areas where AI technology actually is reliable is translation, the amount of time required to paraphrase scripture is equal to the amount of time it would take to generate a useful new translation of something not previously translated or satisfactorily translated into English, such as the Vetus Latina, or the ancient Armenian and Georgian BIbles (these are important - we have the Syriac Peshitta translated to English, albeit its also a bit unsatisfactory, but the Murdock and Etheridge translations are regarded as reliable, and we have the Ethiopian Old Testament translated, but very little from the other two countries which converted to Christianity in the first two decades of the fourth century - note I exclude the Roman Empire because the Edict of Milan did not convert the Empire, the prohibition on Paganism did not come down until Emperor Theodosius around 390 AD, and it was mainly enforced against temples, so you still had neo-Platonist pagans like Hypatia causing scandals in the fifth century. Also, every Emperor after St. Constantine until St. Theodosius was either an Arian who persecuted the church to varying extents (minimally under Valens, maximally under Constantius) or in the case of Julian “the Apostate”, a Neo-Platonist.

Thus the importance of the Georgian and Armenian BIbles as a testament to the faith of two of the four first nations to convert to Christianity (these were, in order, the city state Kingdom of Edessa around 301 AD, Armenia in 306 AD, and Ethiopia and Georgia around 315 AD), very important, and yet these attract less attention than, for example, Sahidic Coptic scriptural manuscripts. And one could translate and verify the translation in the same amount of time it would take to produce a paraphrase (verification is a simple two-pass procedure, first, use another LLM to cross-check the translation for accuracy, and then, run the translation by a Georgian or Armenian clergyman, for the classical Georgian and Armenian languages remain in liturgical use.

There are several other ancient translated of the Bible such as the Old Bulgarian, Romanian and Church Slavonic Bibles which have never been translated. For that matter, we lack a precise, verse by verse translation of Codex Sinaiticus or Codex Vaticanus or Codex Alexandrinus, the three “minority text” manuscripts, or of the oldest and most respected manuscripts of the Byzantine text. We also lack a good translation of the Western text type, which differs slightly from the Byzantine and Alexandrian (minority) text types and in my view deserves more exploration - since two translations were based on it, the Vetus Latina, from which we get the exquisite phrase “Gloria in Excelsis Deo” (the Vulgate renders this in a less elegant manner, “Gloria in Altissimus Deo”) and many others that came to define the liturgy of the Western church, and also the Vetus Syra, the first translation of the four Gospels into Syriac (before the Vetus Syra, we had only an oral transmission, which may or may not have involved a sayings document of which the so-called “Sayings Gospel of Thomas” might be a corrupted version, likely corrupted by members of the Ophite sect or another Syrian sect of docetists, such as those who wrote the apocryphal Acts of Thomas) and the Diatessaron, a bland “Gospel Harmony” (which is the nightmare that results when someone tries to splice all four gospels together into one narrative, the worst example being the infamous “Jefferson Bible” wherein Thomas Jefferson deleted all references to our Lord’s divinity attributing them to “priestcraft” on the assumption that the Native Americans would accept Christianity as philosophy more readily; this was not the case, rather Native Americans embraced Christianity as a religion in many cases, most successfully the Aleuts evangelized by the Russians and the Mesoamerican Indians, while retaining substantial amounts of their philosophy).

In the case of the Diatessaron, the problems were compounded by the fact that Tatian, who translated it, became bored with the apostolic faith and decided to found his own Docetic emanationist sect in the tradition of Bardesanes, the Ophites, and Severians; as a result many Syrian bishops felt they had no choice but to remove the Diatessaron as they could no longer place any trust in the translator - thus the Vetus Syra was extremely important for the Syrian Church.

It is also interesting to consider how the Gospel was spread among so many people before the Bible either was complete, or existed in its present form. St. Paul evangelized much of the Mediterranean, St. Thomas evangelized Jews and Aramaic-speaking pagans and Zoroastrians on the trade route from Judea to Basra via Edessa, Nineveh, Tikrit and Seleucia-Cstesiphon (Bablyon) and then spread the Gospel to the Kochin Jews and Hindus of Kerala, India (this route via Syria and Mesopotamia was the overland route; there was also a mostly overwater route that involved sailing down the Red Sea, stopping at ports in Socotra, off the coast of Yemen, home to a large Christian community until the 12th century when Tamerlane and his sons conspired to exterminate them, with only ruins of the churches surviving, and then sailing on across the Indian Ocean, probably staying close to the shore; this route was faster but more dangerous; some Christians in India are endogamous descendants of the Jewish survivors of a shipwreck whose survival convinced them to convert to Christianity, and are probably the largest group of Christians that is almost entirely of Jewish descent, due to endogamy (likely the result of being classified as a separate sub-caste by the Hindu caste system, which did oppress the Christians, calling them Nasranis, and using them as buffers to separate more desirable classes from less desirable classes, as if Christians were living greenbelts).

Indeed many Romans converted to Christianity speaking only Latin, but the Vetus Latina did not exist until it was translated at the orders of St. Victor, a mid 2nd century bishop of Rome, who also ordered the translation of the Divine Liturgy into Latin, this being the beginnings of the Western liturgical heritage, the Mass and the Divine Office, from which all Western worship is descendant from or in some cases unfortunately reacts against; fortunately Luther at least had the good sense to retain it, and the Anglicans kept most of it, adding some Byzantinizations.

+

In addition to putting AI to good use translating an existing version of the Bible that has been overlooked by the commercial Bible printers like Zondervan, there is also a wealth of Patristic literature that is untranslated, as well as writings of early Czech, German, Swiss, Dutch, French, Italian, and Scandinavian Protestants, and historical documents, and many liturgical texts. In seeking to learn as much as possible about AI in my convalescence I have been putting it to work translating this material.
 

ARBITER01

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Well, its your time and your first amendment rights, but it seems a bad idea to me

I think it's a great idea....

- The Holy Spirit helps me understand what was written by Him and what wasn't.
- I get to number the verses as I see fit.
- I get to choose the arrangement of the different books as well as what books I want in it.
- I get to use the old pre-modern English style that they don't use anymore.
- I get to choose whatever layout and font I want for the printing.
- Since it is for me, I get to choose whatever notes, commentary, and footnotes I want in it without any worry about copyright issues.
- I get to choose whatever sources The Lord shows me to update the text with, whether it is from the early Greek, the later Greek, or a Greek translation, or what have you, and make corrections with it.
- And since I'm putting the work into making this bible with The Lord, I'm going to appreciate and use it much more.

Almost everything is in English now. I would say a good 98% of the papyrus material is translated and available online for me to compare with, in addition to very good interlinear texts of the critical text, so an update to an old received text English translation is not as hard as it would have been a few decades ago for someone like me.
 
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The Liturgist

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I think it's a great idea....

- The Holy Spirit helps me understand what was written by Him and what wasn't.
- I get to number the verses as I see fit.
- I get to choose the arrangement of the different books as well as what books I want in it.
- I get to use the old pre-modern English style that they don't use anymore.
- I get to choose whatever layout and font I want for the printing.
- Since it is for me, I get to choose whatever notes, commentary, and footnotes I want in it without any worry about copyright issues.
- I get to choose whatever sources The Lord shows me to update the text with, whether it is from the early Greek, the later Greek, or a Greek translation, or what have you, and make corrections with it.
- And since I'm putting the work into making this bible with The Lord, I'm going to appreciate and use it much more.

Almost everything is in English now. I would say a good 98% of the papyrus material is translated and available online for me to compare with, in addition to very good interlinear texts of the critical text, so an update to an old received text English translation is not as hard as it would have been a few decades ago for someone like me.

Evidently we are not talking a literal paraphrase, but a rewrite - precisely what @ViaCrucis feared, for your sake, and what I had hoped you were not doing.

Let us be clear:

The standard for evaluating the veracity of any entity claiming to be the Holy Spirit is, according to Scripture, the Holy Bible, and the Gospel contained therein, and we are to test every spirit. Preaching a different Gospel, or departing from the Apostolic tradition, is anathema, according to Galatians 1:8-9 and 2 Thessalonians 2:37 (out of curiosity do you plan on retaining these verses?)

Regarding the canon of Scripture, the contents of the New Testament are clearly what St. Paul was talking about with regards to tradition in 1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 2 Thessalonians 2:37 - since the entire Church agreed on twenty seven books, those enumerated in the 39th Paschal Encyclical of St. Athanasius. Even a man as influential as Martin Luther was unable to change these; he was rightly rebuked for doing so, and since that time Lutheran theologians have integrated the books he feared into the Lutheran faith splendidly, proving his proposed deletion of these works (and his modification of Romans to interpolate the word “alone”) were unwarranted modifications which contradicted his theology elsewhere.

The reason for this is clear - given how little the different geographic regions of the early Church managed to share in common after the fifth century schisms between the Chalcedonians, the Church of the East and the Oriental Orthodox, and the later schisms between the Syriac Orthodox and the Maronites, and a transient schism between the Armenian Aposotlic Church and the other Oriental Orthodox Churches, and the devastating schism between Rome and the Eastern Orthodox in 1054, and the even more devastating schisms caused by the persecution of the holy martyrs St. Jan Hus and St. Jerome of Prague (who are venerated by the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia), and the refusal of Pope Leo X to consider calmly a very reasonable complaint from an Augustinian friar in Germany, that being Martin Luther, and a dispute over Henry VIII wanting a divorce, and the schisms between Geneva, Zurich and Rome, and we have a situation with different regional churches who wound up with different forms of worship, and some theological disagreements, while, in many cases alienated on the basis of language and ethnicity. Yet all these churches managed to retain a few central elements of the Apostolic kerygma, as handed down by the Nicene Fathers: the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Canon - 27 books, since that time recognized in all churches at all times as the canonical New Testament, inspired by the Holy Spirit, even by those who proposed the inclusion of additional churches.

Now, concerning the use of ecclesiastical Jacobean English, I can’t fault you for preferring that; I prefer it as well, but you don’t need to paraphrase Scripture in order to get that. Regarding versification, technically, versification occurred ex post facto, although unlike with the Old Testament, there does exist complete consensus on New Testament versification, however, the liturgical Gospel Books and Apostols (books of the Holy Epistles) used by the Orthodox Church and other similar lectionary presentations arrange the scripture by pericope according to the assigned lections for a given Sunday or feast day; some Bibles also do a decent job of grouping together the verses relevant to pericopes. But those are stylistic issues, like the font, and are not what concerns me.

Rather, what concerns me is:
- The Holy Spirit helps me understand what was written by Him and what wasn't.
- I get to choose the arrangement of the different books as well as what books I want in it.
- I get to choose whatever sources The Lord shows me to update the text with, whether it is from the early Greek, the later Greek, or a Greek translation, or what have you, and make corrections with it.
- And since I'm putting the work into making this bible with The Lord, I'm going to appreciate and use it much more.


There are a number of problems with this:

  1. The Holy Spirit you believe will help you with this is the same person of the Holy Trinity you believe should not be addressed in prayer, which is contradictory.
  2. The basis for testing whether or not you are interacting with the Holy Spirit or an imposter is Scripture - modifying Scripture removes that safety net, and
  3. Choosing what books you want in it (I would note, you said “what books I want in it” and not “what books the Holy Spirit has willed be in it” and I would argue we already know at least 27 of those books, and can also agree on the core of the Old Testament, takes away that safeguard. The lack of unity regarding the Old Testament I would also note is less of an immediate issue considering the prophetic nature of the OT text, although it is the case that none of the ancient churches, nor the Anglicans, nor John Calvin, accepted the 66 book New Testament canon (which Martin Luther was uncomfortable with; like St. Athanasius, he did not regard Esther as scriptural; of course, there are two versions of Scripture, one with prayer at the center of the story and one without),
  4. Likewise, the selection of potentially eclectic sources and making “corrections with it” upon them further removes the basis of Scripture on which we are to test every spirit.
  5. In relying on this self-constructed Scripture, rather than using a diversity of other texts, any errors of interpretation might be amplified.

It should be pointed out that the Holy Spirit, like the Father and the Son, ever one God, and the Holy Angels and Bodiless Powers and the Saints who serve Him, is frequently impersonated - we can say this with certainty based on the very large number of false doctrines people claim were given to them by the Holy Spirit. Thus, I cannot sufficiently stress the real danger of changing the Scriptures which according to Scripture are our means of testing the Holy Spirit.

I should also add, there are precautions one could take for such a project, but even then, there is an issue of a personal BIble edition - compiling Scripture soley for your own use apart from your church and the larger fellowship of Christian faithful that is The Church, and proposing to rely on it primarily or exclusively, is an act which has the effect of creating a barrier between you and the rest of Christ’s faithful - has it occurred to you such an act would be effectively akin to schism? Because you’re creating a rupture, a point of disconnection, between yourself and the rest of the church, over the contents of Scripture. Spending all of that energy to compile a version of scripture for your personal use, that can only be for your personal use due to copyright issues … if you feel there are problems with existing translations surely it would be better and more charitable and more industrious to serve the faithful, to work with the Holy Spirit to compile an edition the faithful could benefit from, and not just yourself? Additionally, doing it that way would ensure multiple individuals could prayerfully review and contribute to the project and help ensure that only the voice of the Holy Spirit was listened to.

Absent such a focus on the needs of the Church, absent such a focus of salvation with the faithful rather than apart from them, absent such a willingness to verify continually, as Scripture advises us to do, the authenticity of any spirit we are interacting with, whether God the Holy Spirit or an angel or anything else, I would share the concerns of our pious friend @ViaCrucis

And to be clear, I do sympathize with many of the complaints that you have, which are moving you in this direction - my concern is there are specific aspects of the path you are taking that are extremely perilous, and @ViaCrucis tried to point this out, and you seem to be regarding it as a personal insult, which it was not. And to be clear, there are ways you could go about doing this that would greatly increase the safety of such an endeavor.
 
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ARBITER01

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Oh no,..... the sky is falling!

If I was even remotely interested in adhering to people and their rules and traditions, I don't think GOD would have approached me about it.
 
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Free2bHeretical4Him!

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My brother, may God enrich your relationship with Him, even more than He has already, as you move through this process. I applaud you for undertaking such an endeavor. It’s believers like yourself, who refuse to be held captive of the naysayers, but trust in the living God, that encourages my personal walk of faith. Be blessed …

P.S. I understand this is for your own personal edification, but if you ever have a mind to share any of your work, shoot me a piece via personal message. Would enjoy reading a refreshing view of Scripture, born from a zeal to know and experience the only true and living God, who hides himself from some but reveals Himself to others.
 
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ARBITER01

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My brother, may God enrich your relationship with Him, even more than He has already, as you move through this process. I applaud you for undertaking such an endeavor. It’s believers like yourself, who refuse to be held captive of the naysayers, but trust in the living God, that encourages my personal walk of faith. Be blessed …

It's always nice to have a vote of confidence. Thanks!

I do understand the position that Liturgist takes as one of safety and tradition, and I don't really fault him for it, but at this point it takes a fresh set of eyes beyond academia and tradition. If I do this correctly by the will of GOD, then my reward is in the end with Jesus. I have to look down the road, not live in the moment.

I'm not sure what GOD will really do if this gets finished. I do have a lot of work ahead of me yet that will take years to do, but for now, it is for me, and I don't abide by manmade rules.

Since you seem interested,... it is a received text update, but it is earlier than the king james version. GOD wanted me to go back before the king james into the translations of the reformers. One of the principles involved is this,...

2Co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. At the mouth of two witnesses or three shall every word be established.

I don't hold to a early Greek text primacy position. The early Greek text is a witness, the later Greek text is a witness, the translations from the Greek are witnesses, as well as the quotations from the early church fathers are witnesses. GOD has me consider all the witnesses, not just one.


P.S. I understand this is for your own personal edification, but if you ever have a mind to share any of your work, shoot me a piece via personal message. Would enjoy reading a refreshing view of Scripture, born from a zeal to know and experience the only true and living God, who hides himself from some but reveals Himself to others.

I'll do that.
 
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FreeinChrist

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ADVISOR HAT


This thread is closed for review. It has been effectively derailed from the OP topic on the second page.


 
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