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Although I don't believe this apparently scientists believe life formed on its own

Ophiolite

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Oh I already did that. Its not fair. Here are a couple.

Mindful Universe
The physically described aspects of nature were asserted to be completely determined by prior physically described aspects alone, with our conscious experiences entering only passively. During the twentieth century the classical concepts were found to be inadequate. In the new theory, quantum mechanics, our conscious experiences enter into the dynamics in specified ways not fixed by the physically described aspects alone. Consequences of this radical change in our understanding of the connection between mind and brain are described.
https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783642180750

Physicalism versus quantum mechanics
A specific new model of the mind-brain connection that is fundamentally quantum mechanical but that ties conscious experiences to these macroscopic synchronous oscillations is used to illustrate the essential disparities between the classical and quantum notions of the physical, and in particular to demonstrate the failure in the quantum world of the principle of the causal closure of the physical, a failure that goes beyond what is entailed by the randomness in the outcomes of observations, and that accommodates the efficacy in the brain of conscious intent.


Quantum theory and the role of mind in nature
The present work examines and proposes solutions to two problems that have appeared to block the development of this conception of nature. The first problem is how to reconcile this theory with the principles of relativistic quantum field theory; the second problem is to understand whether, strictly within quantum theory, a person's mind can affect the activities of his brain, and if so how.


On The Nature of Things: Human Presence in the World of Atoms
A new theory was needed, and was duly created. It accounts with fantastic accuracy for the empirical data both old and new. The core difference between the two theories is that in the earlier classical theory all causal effects in the world of matter are reducible to the action of matter upon matter, whereas in the new theory our conscious thoughts and mental efforts play an essential and irreducible role in the determination of the evolving material properties of the physically described world.

Points of Contact Between the Stappian Philosophy and Emergent Aspect Dualism
Henry Stapp is well known for his advanced views of Quantum Physics and particularly for development of the view that the mind of the observer is intimately involved in the collapse of the wave function when an observation is made.
Oh dear me. One step forward three steps back. The failure is mine. I underestimated your perception. Let me take you on a short journey. Please stay with me and read carefully:

When an argument is published in a quality journal the author(s) make reference to the source of specific bits information, or ideas within the body of the text, perhaps even quoting a relevant portion from that other work. Then, at the end of the paper a full citation, in standardised format, is provided to enable readers to easily find and consider that cited work.
And here is a curious thing, each time they publish a new paper on the same or related topic, they repear the procedure. They do not assume the reader has read their earlier paper, remembers which particular citation they are referring to and knows exactly where to find it. They repeat the whole process to allow the reader to focus on their argument not to go off on an unnecessary search.

Now you are not punlishing in a quality journal, but you are presenting an argument and you do have readers. Convention, good sense and just a decent set of manners, request, demand and require that you follow suit, not with appendices and formal citation style, but with a clear reference and link repeated from your original offering.

I am disgusted and appalled that I should be so mind-numbingly dumb that it did not occur to me that you would not understand that from my earlier post. There are four hundred plus posts in this thread. And you apparently think your readers are so engaged and enthralled and attached to your argument that they know exactly and easily where to find links, or comments you have previously made?

DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DEFEND YOUR OVERSIGHT HERE. IT WILL NOT WASH. Humbly and simply, note that you misiunderstood and will do better in future.
 
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Ophiolite

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@sjastro Do these points reflect Stapp's position?
  • The brain evolves into multiple possible states (via quantum processes and decoherence)
  • Consciousness selects which set of possibilities matters
  • Quantum collapse (via the Born rule) selects one outcome
  • That outcome is experienced as a conscious event
 
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stevevw

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Oh dear me. One step forward three steps back. The failure is mine. I underestimated your perception. Let me take you on a short journey. Please stay with me and read carefully:

When an argument is published in a quality journal the author(s) make reference to the source of specific bits information, or ideas within the body of the text, perhaps even quoting a relevant portion from that other work. Then, at the end of the paper a full citation, in standardised format, is provided to enable readers to easily find and consider that cited work.
And here is a curious thing, each time they publish a new paper on the same or related topic, they repear the procedure. They do not assume the reader has read their earlier paper, remembers which particular citation they are referring to and knows exactly where to find it. They repeat the whole process to allow the reader to focus on their argument not to go off on an unnecessary search.

Now you are not punlishing in a quality journal, but you are presenting an argument and you do have readers. Convention, good sense and just a decent set of manners, request, demand and require that you follow suit, not with appendices and formal citation style, but with a clear reference and link repeated from your original offering.

I am disgusted and appalled that I should be so mind-numbingly dumb that it did not occur to me that you would not understand that from my earlier post. There are four hundred plus posts in this thread. And you apparently think your readers are so engaged and enthralled and attached to your argument that they know exactly and easily where to find links, or comments you have previously made?

DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DEFEND YOUR OVERSIGHT HERE. IT WILL NOT WASH. Humbly and simply, note that you misiunderstood and will do better in future.
Ok I honestly read this and am still not sure what you are saying. Can you break down what the point is in simple terms. I am not that clever.
 
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stevevw

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I did answer your question in my response to @Ophiolite where at least the answer was acknowledged and to his credit admitted he didn't understand it but is open to learning more about the subject.

Compare this to your Dunning Kruger type responses, where you not even have the vaguest understanding of how totally irrelevant your replies are in addressing why the mathematics and Stapp's very words contradict your idea of the brain being non physical and the consciousness being nonlocal.
But I did not say that Stapp claimed the brain is non physical. This is a strawman.

Ok let me put it this way. Does Stapp support the idea that conscious free choice collapses the wave function.
 
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sjastro

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@sjastro Do these points reflect Stapp's position?
  • The brain evolves into multiple possible states (via quantum processes and decoherence)
  • Consciousness selects which set of possibilities matters
  • Quantum collapse (via the Born rule) selects one outcome
  • That outcome is experienced as a conscious event
The brain evolves into multiple possible states (via quantum processes and decoherence).
Correct.

Consciousness selects which set of possibilities matters.
The mind selects which set of possibilities matters.

Quantum collapse (via the Born rule) selects one outcome
That outcome is experienced as a conscious event.
Quantum collapse doesn't occur via the Born rule. The Born rule assigns probabilities to all possible outcomes and the final outcome expressed as a conscious event is purely probabilistic.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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sjastro

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But I did not say that Stapp claimed the brain is non physical. This is a strawman.

Another one of your changes in midstream answers.
Ok let me put it this way. Does Stapp support the idea that conscious free choice collapses the wave function.
In Stapp’s model, physical brain states are produced by decoherence.
Consciousness does not directly determine the outcome through collapse, but the action of the mind selects which set of possible outcomes of brain states are available where consciousness is located and is not nonlocal.
The actual collapse (outcome) is selected by Nature and is probabilistic.
The action of the mind is not determined by prior physical states, and therefore constitutes a form of free choice.
 
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askesis

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Matthew 24:36
Thank you. I feel better now since we've got time or not. Who knows? On a related question, why do people confuse metaphysics with science? If abiogenesis were shown to be true, that still wouldn't answer the question of a god's existence. For all we know, a god could have created or emanated a world in which abiogenesis occurs, or abiogenesis occurs and there is no god. Do scientists really want proof for metaphysical questions or do they just assign all metaphysics to the Humean flames! Ah hahaha ha
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Thank you. I feel better now since we've got time or not. Who knows? On a related question, why do people confuse metaphysics with science? If abiogenesis were shown to be true, that still wouldn't answer the question of a god's existence. For all we know, a god could have created or emanated a world in which abiogenesis occurs, or abiogenesis occurs and there is no god. Do scientists really want proof for metaphysical questions or do they just assign all metaphysics to the Humean flames! Ah hahaha ha

Seeking how life began through naturalistic means really that the limit is to the naturalistic. Metaphysics is largely for philosophers and people with too much time on their hands.
 
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askesis

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Seeking how life began through naturalistic means really that the limit is to the naturalistic. Metaphysics is largely for philosophers and people with too much time on their hands.
Agreed. But, is there really a difference between philosophers and people with too much time on their hands? Well, I'm here because I have time, but I'm no philosopher so nevermind.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Thank you. I feel better now since we've got time or not. Who knows? On a related question, why do people confuse metaphysics with science? If abiogenesis were shown to be true, that still wouldn't answer the question of a god's existence. For all we know, a god could have created or emanated a world in which abiogenesis occurs, or abiogenesis occurs and there is no god. Do scientists really want proof for metaphysical questions or do they just assign all metaphysics to the Humean flames! Ah hahaha ha
I really don't know. I wish I could understand why they do that. I never had any issues with science and religion.
 
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askesis

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I really don't know. I wish I could understand why they do that. I never had any issues with science and religion.
Me either. They're very different things.
 
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stevevw

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Another one of your changes in midstream answers.
The dividing line is the physical (physical brain) as opposed to Mind (consciousness) beyond the physical brain is it not ?

That Mind cannot be reduced to the physical brain. Stapp is saying there are two seperate phenomena going on. The physical brain and the non physical Mind. Both are fundemental aspects of reality.

Stapp acknowledges the physical brain to be able to argue Mind beyond the physical brain. Otherwise there is no arguement that Mind is fundemental to creating reality.

I am not sure exactly where consciousness kicks in. But whenever it does it has an causal influence on objective physical reality. Whether that's very early in the chain or at a point where reality is brought into focus. Consciousness is proposed to be the fundemental driving force.
In Stapp’s model, physical brain states are produced by decoherence.
But what has produced the decoherence ? Is it not conscious observation and free choice that collapses the wave function into a real state ?.
Consciousness does not directly determine the outcome through collapse, but the action of the mind selects which set of possible outcomes of brain states are available where consciousness is located and is not nonlocal.
This seems to make humans totally unaware and not involved in which brain states are attended to. Like some outside process or force acted upon us and dictated what is happening.
The actual collapse (outcome) is selected by Nature and is probabilistic.
The action of the mind is not determined by prior physical states, and therefore constitutes a form of free choice.
But what does that "form of free choice" represent as far as having any influence over the physical processes you are describing ? That you seem to claim are dictating the Mind even. Free choice being some sort of by product but not causal influence as far as ultimate reality (whatever that is).
 
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sjastro

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The dividing line is the physical (physical brain) as opposed to Mind (consciousness) beyond the physical brain is it not ?

That Mind cannot be reduced to the physical brain. Stapp is saying there are two seperate phenomena going on. The physical brain and the non physical Mind. Both are fundemental aspects of reality.

Stapp acknowledges the physical brain to be able to argue Mind beyond the physical brain. Otherwise there is no arguement that Mind is fundemental to creating reality.

I am not sure exactly where consciousness kicks in. But whenever it does it has an causal influence on objective physical reality. Whether that's very early in the chain or at a point where reality is brought into focus. Consciousness is proposed to be the fundemental driving force.

But what has produced the decoherence ? Is it not conscious observation and free choice that collapses the wave function into a real state ?.

This seems to make humans totally unaware and not involved in which brain states are attended to. Like some outside process or force acted upon us and dictated what is happening.

But what does that "form of free choice" represent as far as having any influence over the physical processes you are describing ? That you seem to claim are dictating the Mind even. Free choice being some sort of by product but not causal influence as far as ultimate reality (whatever that is).
The problem with your post is that Stapp's model like any other interpretation is based on a mathematical framework so it is is meaningless to ask questions like where does decoherence comes from.
Like Stapp I am using his mathematical framework to address the issues not irrelevant metaphysical questions.

Decoherence is a mathematical process where initially an infinite number of physical brain states entangled with the environment is changed into a classical mixed statistical state over a large set of alternative physical brain states.

Mathematically the brain states entangled with the environment E to those familiar with Hilbert spaces and linear algebra is:

eqn1.png


Decoherence mathematically is represented by the density matrix ρ.

eqn2.png


The mind is also a mathematical process based on the use of quantum logic where the finite mixed physical brain statistical set is "interrogated" by yes/no questions as binary units yes =1 and no = 0. This further reduces the size of the set.

eqn3.png


The outcomes are Yes.

eqn4.png


Or No.

eqn5.png


Tr is the trace of the density matrix.
The outcomes are probabilistic as the mathematics is based on Born rule probabilities.

Where the outcome is yes consciousness occurs, if no consciousness does not occur.
The mathematics shows consciousness emerges after entanglement when the superposed physical brain states become a statistical mixture and since it is a function of the brain density matrix it is clearly local not non local.

Stapp went to the degree of associating consciousness with the brain's neural functions.

“….The argument is concretized in a way that makes it accessible to non-physicists by exploiting the recent evidence connecting our conscious experiences to macroscopic measurable synchronous oscillations occurring in well-separated parts of the brain. A specific new model of the mind-brain connection that is fundamentally quantum mechanical but that ties conscious experiences to these macroscopic synchronous oscillations is used to illustrate the essential disparities between the classical and quantum notions of the physical, and in particular to demonstrate the failure in the quantum world of the principle of the causal closure of the physical, a failure that goes beyond what is entailed by the randomness in the outcomes of observations, and that accommodates the efficacy in the brain of conscious intent”.

Physicalism versus quantum mechanics
 
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sjastro

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Quantum mechanics makes my head hurt. And now, I'm going to have to go learn enough to understand your work.

Thanks a lot, sjastro.

Before Sabine Hossenfelder went weird and anti-establishment she posted a series of introductory videos on QM which may prove helpful in understanding my previous post.

Mathematical formalism of Quantum Mechanics.


Decoherence and density matrices (ignore her comments about ignorant physicists).

 
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