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Minneapolis ICE shooting: Toxic empathy vs. the rule of law

Vanellus

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Maybe I believe in self preservation and understand that acting any way but compliant with ANY branch of law enforcement imperils my life. Whatever the situation, whatever the country.

Maybe I understand that, if I get shot and killed, and they are found guilty or innocent in court, I'm still dead.

Maybe that's what I was saying.
This is the blame the victim narrative. You reach into your pocket for a handkerchief, you're shot dead, you don't reach for a handkerchief, make a sudden loud noise (i.e. sneeze) you're shot dead, you're told to drive away, you drive away not harming anyone you're shot dead. ICE agents are not paid by the government, they're paid by citizens through taxation. They are public servants not public slave masters like in OT Egypt where someone called Moses took violent action against the government! Except Renee Good didn't kill anyone or hurt anyone.

Wearing a uniform doesn't put someone automatically in the right. There are so many cases when men in uniform massacred unarmed civilians e.g a certain Sunday in St Petersburg in 1905 and another Sunday in Londonderry in 1972 or a Monday in Manchester in 1819. If you take the "government is always right and the people are always wrong" view then these massacres and the many others like them should be celebrated as times when the lawful government asserted their right to murder the country's citizens with impunity. Is that what you think?

It may not be true for you but it seems to me that some people in this forum have adopted a particular line for partisan political reasons, not based on what actually happened.
 
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BPPLEE

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Which video? I haven't seen any video that hints at Good taking a video.
She did not release a video because it did not exist.
Good's wife had her cellphone videoing, we haven't seen her footage
 
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BPPLEE

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What's your source for that?
All I heard up to now indicates that this »wife« was not present …
She's in the video, she tells the ICE agent that the tag on their car is the same, her cellphone is in her hand. You must not have watched the video that is available
I can't post it because of profanity
 
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Yarddog

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Perhaps he is not sending ICE agents into those other states en mass because law enforcement in those states are actually holding illegal immigrants who have committed crimes and handing them off to ICE in the jail system, which is a controlled and much safer environment.

I am wondering if the states that are opposing ICE are actually doing their immigrant communities a disservice. By refusing to hand over illegal immigrants who commit crimes in the jail system, they have led to the Feds sending ICE agents to these locations looking for those with criminal records, at which point they are also coming into contact with the rest of the immigrant community and put into a position where they do have to arrest people whose only crime may have been the illegal immigration... and who may have been left off ICE's radar initially.
Can you show where the immigrants that were arrested by ICE were actually harmful to Minnesota? Or, the state refusing to hand over illegal immigrants that were convicted of violent crimes?
 
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ChubbyCherub

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This is the blame the victim narrative.

Wearing a uniform doesn't put someone automatically in the right. Is that what you think?

It may not be true for you but it seems to me that people in this forum have adopted a particular line for partisan political reasons, not based on what actually happened.

1) No, it's make the 'victim' think before reacting. I think we all have personal responsibility to not escalate dangerous situations and rely on the skill set, emotions, etc of others to save our lives with no accountability ourselves. Adults recognize and manage situations and don't allow morals, feelings, what ifs and should bes to blur reality unless they're very, very silly.

2) I think if you reread what I typed, this will answer your question.

3) I don't get involved in politics and have no opinion on them.
 
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Helmut-WK

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I can't post it because of profanity
Given the critic on censorship in Europe by JD Vance, you only have to wait until he puts the same measure to CF, and then you can post it. ;)

To be serious: Is there no source you can link to that proves your description?
 
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ChubbyCherub

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You are wrong. There are countries where the police (or whatever sort of law-enforcement is involved) dies not over-react in such a manner.
The USA are special, because there are so many weapons. A burglar has to reckon with an inhabitant that will shoot on him if detected, so he takes a gun with him. In other countries he only has the tools to come into the house with him …

Maybe she thought that they would not shoot on her if she drives away …
No, I'm not wrong.

I practice self defense and martial arts. We are taught not to antagonize, show off, taunt people, law enforcement etc. There is a reason for that. People react under pressure and high emotion. If you don't teach yourself that, then you are at a gross disadvantage and living in a fantasy world.

Before training, I used common sense.

Why is it so hard for people to accept accountability in these types of situations? Reality isn't just for some and not for others.

If someone is screaming at you, has a gun etc, you're not a social justice warrior or hero if/when you get shot. You're injured or dead.

If someone doesn't value their life enough to shut up and handle things so they didn't get shot by someone, who may or not be able to shoot with emotional stability or with proper education and restraint, they have a degree of accountability in the result. This is unfortunate, since the result is not reversible.
 
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Postvieww

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I hear what you’re saying, but the available information paints a different picture of what actually happened. Renee Nicole Macklin Good wasn’t pulled over, chased, or stopped for any violation. She had just dropped off her six‑year‑old at school and was driving home with her wife when they came upon an ICE operation already happening on that residential street. Other cars were stopped as well because the road was partially blocked by the agents and their vehicles.

She made a normal, legal stop. There’s nothing in the reporting that shows she initiated any act of aggression. The videos that are public show ICE agents approaching her SUV, pulling on her door handle, shouting, and surrounding the vehicle. When the car moved forward slowly — which could easily have been fear or confusion — an agent standing directly in front of the SUV fired multiple shots at close range. That’s the sequence we can actually see.

Her family, her ex‑husband, and her wife all say she wasn’t political, wasn’t an activist, and wasn’t someone who would try to harm anyone. She was a mother, a poet, a singer, and someone who had just finished a routine school drop‑off. Nothing in her background suggests she would intentionally attack federal agents.

So the idea that “if she was driving home she would be home now” doesn’t really fit the facts. She didn’t choose to stop because she was looking for trouble. She stopped because the street was full of ICE vehicles and agents, and they approached her first. Once that happened, the situation escalated in seconds, and she never had the chance to simply continue home.

I’m not trying to argue with you — just laying out what the evidence shows so far.
Fox just reported the ICE agent she hit has internal bleeding in his torso. That aside your attempt to make her an every day mom who did no wrong does not align with actual facts. She was not just an innocent mom attacked by ice , her poor decision to taunt , disobey lawful commands from law enforcement and try to flee the scene at a minimum or run down a government agent at worse cost her life. She is at fault for what happened!
 
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Helmut-WK

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No, I'm not wrong.
Hey, I know how it is in Germany, and therefore I know that your »in every country« is wrong. You need more than just disobeying the police to get into danger of death.

I once saw a video, showing a tourist in the US who was confronted to a law enforcement officer (whether police, sheriff, or whatsoever: I don't know).
The video was taken with the back of the tourist in the foreground, the officer in the background. The tourist wanted to show his passport, which was in the back-pocket of his trousers, and so took it out of the pocket. A quite normal reaction - except in the USA: the officer shot at him.
If someone is screaming at you, has a gun etc,
What if somewhat is screaming and has no gun?

In Europe, a policeman would be sentenced if he shot on a person that was just screaming at him.
If someone doesn't value their life enough to shut up and handle things so they didn't get shot by someone, who may or not be able to shoot with emotional stability or with proper education and restraint, they have a degree of accountability in the result. This is unfortunate, since the result is not reversible.
This may be true in the USA, in other countries things are somewhat different.
 
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ChubbyCherub

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Hey, I know how it is in Germany, and therefore I know that your »in every country« is wrong. You need more than just disobeying the police to get into danger of death.

I once saw a video, showing a tourist in the US who was confronted to a law enforcement officer (whether police, sheriff, or whatsoever: I don't know).
The video was taken with the back of the tourist in the foreground, the officer in the background. The tourist wanted to show his passport, which was in the back-pocket of his trousers, and so took it out of the pocket. A quite normal reaction - except in the USA: the officer shot at him.

What if somewhat is screaming and has no gun?

In Europe, a policeman would be sentenced if he shot on a person that was just screaming at him.

This may be true in the USA, in other countries things are somewhat different.
The USA is a) where I was born and raised and b) where the incident occurred

However, I have lived in other countries and I still wouldn't antagonize law enforcement, strangers on the street, supermarket etc. I don't believe, for a second, that you can go to Mexico, Australia or any country at all, and just scream and abuse law enforcement with impunity.

When we react to violence with violence, or behaviors that can escalate violence, it's a big mistake because we don't know if these people have had a bad day, are under the influence etc.

So, as I said, what we expect people to do can be very, deadly wrong. Shut up and walk off and save your life.

Very silly to gamble life away because you think you are making a stand or want Tik Tok clout. Ego is a killer.
 
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BPPLEE

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Given the critic on censorship in Europe by JD Vance, you only have to wait until he puts the same measure to CF, and then you can post it. ;)

To be serious: Is there no source you can link to that proves your description?
Do you know how to use Google? You can see for yourself
 
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BPPLEE

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FredG3

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Can you show where the immigrants that were arrested by ICE were actually harmful to Minnesota? Or, the state refusing to hand over illegal immigrants that were convicted of violent crimes?
Reportedly MN has 1,360 people who are illegal immigrants that have committed crimes in custody and refuse to release to ICE plus have released at least 470 with criminal convictions back onto the streets:


That article goes on to list several specific examples of criminal illegal alien who were recently released to the street instead of held for ICE, including charges of sexual offenses against a minor, domestic violence, and even one charged with homicide.

I will note that the governor states they abide by lawful detainers, but the article also shows how the state AG issued an opinion that prohibited state and local polcie from holding people on an ICE detainer. So, it is not clear to me under what grounds that state is releasing or holding people that ICE is specifically interested in.
 
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Helmut-WK

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However, I have lived in other countries and I still wouldn't antagonize law enforcement, strangers on the street, supermarket etc. I don't believe, for a second, that you can go to Mexico, Australia or any country at all, and just scream and abuse law enforcement with impunity.
In Germany, you will certainly arrested for it. Probably put to court, and sentenced. But you will not be in danger for your life.
Maybe in Mexico you will, as in the USA. But in Australia?
 
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ChubbyCherub

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In Germany, you will certainly arrested for it. Probably put to court, and sentenced. But you will not be in danger for your life.
Maybe in Mexico you will, as in the USA. But in Australia?
I don't know. I'm not willing to risk my life to find out. I can promise you that, should I ever visit Germany, I would not taunt law enforcement or make them feel under threat by words or actions.

What does it mean to live by the sword and die by the sword? | GotQuestions.org

Jesus warned Peter that violence begets violence. It didn't make the Roman soldiers 'right' for arresting Jesus but Jesus knew that Peter's actions would imperil Peter and others.

Thousands of years ago, we had common sense but, when this fails - listen to Jesus.
 
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Helmut-WK

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I don't know. I'm not willing to risk my life to find out.
You will not risk your life, unless you meet some co-prisoner who wants to kill an American, or whatever may happen in prison …
Jesus warned Peter that violence begets violence.
This also hold for violence used by law enforcement.
Training policemen (and -women) in techniques of de-escalation is part of a program to improve the work of the police.

The manner of a SWAT team (SEK is the German abbreviation) is different, of course ;) but the odds are that you will never get into the focus of such an unit.
 
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Yarddog

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Reportedly MN has 1,360 people who are illegal immigrants that have committed crimes in custody and refuse to release to ICE plus have released at least 470 with criminal convictions back onto the streets:


That article goes on to list several specific examples of criminal illegal alien who were recently released to the street instead of held for ICE, including charges of sexual offenses against a minor, domestic violence, and even one charged with homicide.

I will note that the governor states they abide by lawful detainers, but the article also shows how the state AG issued an opinion that prohibited state and local polcie from holding people on an ICE detainer. So, it is not clear to me under what grounds that state is releasing or holding people that ICE is specifically interested in.
So, you can't provide anything proving that the claims are true.
 
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FredG3

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So, you can't provide anything proving that the claims are true.
An article from a major media outlet that cites multiple government sources is not good enough?

How about a federal government press release with specific recent arrests in Minnesota and their criminal records:

Here's another press release of a specific sexual deviant arrest that also reports 70% of the illegal alients they have arrested in the past year have prior criminal arrests or convictions:

I have tried to find left leaning news outlets that discuss any of these arrests and I have not found any reporting about the actual immigrant people being arrested by any of the left leaning news outlets. They seem to be only covering arrests of protestors while govt press releases and right leaning news are reporting on arrests of specific immigrants and protesters equally.
 
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Yarddog

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An article from a major media outlet that cites multiple government sources is not good enough?
I hope that you're joking. Fox is known for being untrustworthy, this administration is full of liars, etc... Nothing is good enough from those sources.
How about a federal government press release with specific recent arrests in Minnesota and their criminal records:
I'd be nice if they provided links to Minnesota law enforcement shows actually court transcripts.
Here's another press release of a specific sexual deviant arrest that also reports 70% of the illegal alients they have arrested in the past year have prior criminal arrests or convictions:
Again, ICE has lied about so many issues and the government is hiding facts about the investigations.
I have tried to find left leaning news outlets that discuss any of these arrests and I have not found any reporting about the actual immigrant people being arrested by any of the left leaning news outlets. They seem to be only covering arrests of protestors while govt press releases and right leaning news are reporting on arrests of specific immigrants and protesters equally.
Left leaning sites give news favoring the left. I'd like court transcripts.
 
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