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ICE Violently Detained 2 U.S. Citizens While at Work at Target.

wing2000

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Yes, but they tend to first go after illegal aliens who have warrants for crimes other than being in the country illegally and or they have criminal records. That's what puts them on the ICE, DHS, Border Control radar.

Yes, that is how ICE should operate. And some operations may still be targeted. Many others are sweeps wherein they are profiling based on looks and accents.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I only need to provide my name.
I have a right to remain silent.
I am not obligated to show them ID.

I submit many ICE officers don't understand the rights of U.S. Citizens.
I have the same rights at a DUI checkpoint...doesn't mean it won't be a bad night choose to make things more difficult than they need to be to prove a point.


(not referring to you specifically on this part -- just want to make that clear it's not a personal attack)
It's crazy how many "fair weather libertarians" come out of the woodwork for cases like these, who normally mock the libertarian movement on literally everything else.

We'll see if these "libertarians" stay with the same mindset when it comes time to vote on tax and gun policy.
 
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Servus

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Yes.

I only need to provide my name.
I have a right to remain silent.
I am not obligated to show them ID.

I submit many ICE officers don't understand the rights of U.S. Citizens.
If law enforcement is investigating a potential crime and you are a suspect, you will probably be charged with obstruction and resisting without violence. It's a lot easier for both parties to just simply be cooperative for a few minitues and then go about your business.
 
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Servus

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Yes, that is how ICE should operate. And some operations may still be targeted. Many others are sweeps wherein they are profiling based on looks and accents.
And it's that most illegal aliens from central and south america don't have certain looks and accents?
 
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wing2000

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And it's that most illegal aliens from central and south america don't have certain looks and accents?

Illegal aliens, legal residents and US citizens have the same "certain looks and accents." By empowering ice agents to profile, US legal residents and citizens are being swept up without any regard for their rights.
"I'm a U.S. citizen".
ICE Agent: "I don't care".
 
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Servus

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Illegal aliens, legal residents and US citizens have the same "certain looks and accents." By empowering ice agents to profile, US legal residents and citizens are being swept up without any regard for their rights.
"I'm a U.S. citizen".
ICE Agent: "I don't care".
That's not what happens. Law enforcement detained the two at target because they said @#$! you and kept walking away, instead of saying they were US citizens. It until after they got arrested for resisting and obstruction and assault that they started shouting 'I'm a US citizen!'.

About about 68 million people in the U.S. identify as Hispanic or Latino. Of those 68 million about 69,000 people were in ICE detention. And out of those 69,000 170 turned out to be US citizens. So in other words 90% of the population of those "brown people" have not been detained by ICE. Which means ICE is going after specific people who happen to be "brown" as opposed to going after all of the "brown people" in the US.
 
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Hans Blaster

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not referring to you specifically on this part -- just want to make that clear it's not a personal attack)
It's crazy how many "fair weather libertarians" come out of the woodwork for cases like these, who normally mock the libertarian movement on literally everything else.
Most of us aware of the "libertarians" know that they were nothing more than self interested tax avoiders with authoritarian tendencies. Most never had any "principles".
 
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Belk

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If law enforcement is investigating a potential crime and you are a suspect, you will probably be charged with obstruction and resisting without violence. It's a lot easier for both parties to just simply be cooperative for a few minitues and then go about your business.
You can't be charged with obstruction for exercising your fifth amendment right to remain silent. If you wish to give up your rights, knock yourself out. I will exercise mine to ensure they still exist.
 
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Stopped_lurking

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I have the same rights at a DUI checkpoint...doesn't mean it won't be a bad night choose to make things more difficult than they need to be to prove a point.


(not referring to you specifically on this part -- just want to make that clear it's not a personal attack)
It's crazy how many "fair weather libertarians" come out of the woodwork for cases like these, who normally mock the libertarian movement on literally everything else.

We'll see if these "libertarians" stay with the same mindset when it comes time to vote on tax and gun policy.
Do the people that want to stand on their rights with regards to police interactions call themselves "libertarians", or why should they agree with libertarians with regards to taxes?

Do you really believe that you can get your hands on their vote on gun and tax policy, are you only talking about political officials?
 
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wing2000

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That's not what happens. Law enforcement detained the two at target because they said @#$! you and kept walking away, instead of saying they were US citizens. It until after they got arrested for resisting and obstruction and assault that they started shouting 'I'm a US citizen!'.

That's what you observed on the video.....a video that starts with an ICE agent chasing one of the employees into Target while he's yelling expletives at the agent. We do not know:
1) How the initial encounter played out
2) What the ICE agent said.
3) What the "suspect" said.
3) The ICE agent's demeanor

We can surmise is this was a scared, reactive teenager who know doubt had seen videos of other ICE "take downs". He's at his place of work and suddently, ICE agents, who are dressed like they're invading Caracas, are coming for him based on....what? He panics and attempts to flee. Big surprise.

And as an aside, why should we as a society accept the presence of heavily armed ICE agents in places like Target? I recall the first time I saw armed soldiers in public places in Latin America. I was shocked. And now, four decades later, it has come to our country.

About about 68 million people in the U.S. identify as Hispanic or Latino. Of those 68 million about 69,000 people were in ICE detention. And out of those 69,000 170 turned out to be US citizens. So in other words 90% of the population of those "brown people" have not been detained by ICE. Which means ICE is going after specific people who happen to be "brown" as opposed to going after all of the "brown people" in the US.

170 too many.
 
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Servus

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That's what you observed on the video.....a video that starts with an ICE agent chasing one of the employees into Target while he's yelling expletives at the agent. We do not know:
1) How the initial encounter played out
2) What the ICE agent said.
3) What the "suspect" said.
3) The ICE agent's demeanor

We can surmise is this was a scared, reactive teenager who know doubt had seen videos of other ICE "take downs". He's at his place of work and suddently, ICE agents, who are dressed like they're invading Caracas, are coming for him based on....what? He panics and attempts to flee. Big surprise.
Maybe. Nut I think it's more likely that left-wing media and influencers incited him to rebel against law enforcement. They convince people they have the constitutional right to obstruct and resist to the point of assaulting law inforecent.
And as an aside, why should we as a society accept the presence of heavily armed ICE agents in places like Target?
Border Control (who where the ones involved in this), ICE and INS have always been armed and have always raided places where illegal aliens work like Target, Home Depot, Restaurants etc. Having grown up in Los Angeles county I remember that happening in the 70s.
I recall the first time I saw armed soldiers in public places in Latin America. I was shocked. And now, four decades later, it has come to our country.
Maybe we should be more shocked by how violent the citizenry have become.
170 too many.
About 7 million people per year experience arrest and release by law enforcement in the U.S. How outraged is the public over the other 6,999,830?
 
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wing2000

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Maybe. Nut I think it's more likely that left-wing media and influencers incited him to rebel against law enforcement. They convince people they have the constitutional right to obstruct and resist to the point of assaulting law inforecent.

Did he assault the ICE agent? I must have missed that.....

Border Control (who where the ones involved in this), ICE and INS have always been armed and have always raided places where illegal aliens work like Target, Home Depot, Restaurants etc. Having grown up in Los Angeles county I remember that happening in the 70s.

Were they dressed like they were invading a country?
 
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Servus

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You can't be charged with obstruction for exercising your fifth amendment right to remain silent. If you wish to give up your rights, knock yourself out. I will exercise mine to ensure they still exist.
Yeah, that's the kind of interpretation of the law that gets people put in handcuffs. That's pretty much the way it goes in most every one of the many police bodycam videos I've watched. "I don't have to!" "You can't tell me what to do!" "I know my rights!" et al, then *click click* go the cuffs, and they're charged with obstructing and resisting. Some even think they have the first amendment right to threaten the officer, and they end up getting charged with committing a felony.
 
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Did he assault the ICE agent? I must have missed that.....
The news report I posted said one of them was charged with assault. In all of the many bodycam videos I've watched 99% of the time when someone gets thrown to the ground, it's because they're fighting the officers. Often to the point where it takes three to five of them to hold the person down.
Were they dressed like they were invading a country?
The millions who invaded our country were dressed like this:

US invaders.png


Immigration control agents wear protective gear due to all of the American citizens attacking them and shooting at them to protect the invaders.
 
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Belk

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Yeah, that's the kind of interpretation of the law that gets people put in handcuffs. That's pretty much the way it goes in most every one of the many police bodycam videos I've watched. "I don't have to!" "You can't tell me what to do!" "I know my rights!" et al, then *click click* go the cuffs, and they're charged with obstructing and resisting. Some even think they have the first amendment right to threaten the officer, and they end up getting charged with committing a felony.
I find it strange how the right has gone from warning about the "jack booted thugs" from the government coming to take their rights to warning how we must all give in to the jack booted thugs or else we will be gleefully hauled away.
 
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durangodawood

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People are acting like this started with the current administration.
How other people may be acting is not a basis for you to form opinions about what is right or wrong. Or maybe it is.
And they're not pulling every brown person aside just because they're brown. That's a misnomer. What it is, is those whom they're pulling aside happen to be brown. That's inescapable. The majority of illegal aliens happen to be brown. There's no way to change that.
No. They are going after people just because they "look Mexican". Its not the only thing they are doing of course. But they are doing it.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Do the people that want to stand on their rights with regards to police interactions call themselves "libertarians", or why should they agree with libertarians with regards to taxes?

Do you really believe that you can get your hands on their vote on gun and tax policy, are you only talking about political officials?
I see it among the voters and the political officials.

There are still some of the more "legit" libertarians I see who seem to be consistent across the board about such matters. Where they want the absolute minimum amount of government power on virtually every topic (the Ron Paul or Spike Cohen type of people)

But when it comes to these matters, social justice protestors (most of whom typically vote for expanded government powers in a myriad of other arenas), all of the sudden advocate for a Night-watchman State style of governance when it's convenient as a talking point. And some who've even said the constitution is "dated", suddenly want a strict originalist interpretation of a hand-picked section of it that they feel vindicates their position.


Basically, the hard-line GOP'ers and the progressive wing of the Democratic party played musical chairs and switched spots between the time of vaccine mandates and this situation. Ironically, both used extremely similar arguments, and both even invoked East Germany "show your papers" hyperbolic rhetoric to describe the nature of the situation they didn't like.

But it all still boils down to epistemological questions about the Liberty/Security tradeoffs, and practical limits.
 
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How other people may be acting is not a basis for you to form opinions about what is right or wrong. Or maybe it is.
When it's only supposedly wrong under the administration the people are outraging over, but no biggie under their administration, the outrage is obviously political rather than actually moral.
No. They are going after people just because they "look Mexican". Its not the only thing they are doing of course. But they are doing it.
What should they be doing instead? How did they do it under the Obama administration? Perhaps that's where the answer is.
 
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durangodawood

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When it's only supposedly wrong under the administration the people are outraging over, but no biggie under their administration, the outrage is obviously political rather than actually moral.
Once again you defer from applying yourself to a moral question, and prefer to attack "the discussion" instead.
 
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I find it strange how the right has gone from warning about the "jack booted thugs" from the government coming to take their rights to warning how we must all give in to the jack booted thugs or else we will be gleefully hauled away.
I doubt thay had such a standard routine part of law enforcing in mind.
 
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