Minneapolis ICE shooting: Toxic empathy vs. the rule of law

She said, "I'm not mad at you." After he shot her, he called her a nasty slur. That's a cold-blooded killing in the most important sense of the word. He's not heartbroken. He's not even shaken by it. Just, you know, call 911. I would say this rejection of empathy (or whatever it is) that is so popular right now is working.

Vanellus said:

It's very difficult to be sure of Renee's intention especially now she is dead. Her killer's car was parked next to hers and was also pointing into the road: it wasn't parked parallel to the kerb. But the simple fact is that she wasn't blocking the road because the road was not blocked.

Click to expand...

The difference is that his car was an emergency vehicle with emergency lights on and parked that way because she was blocking the lane of traffic. Her wife, after the fact, stated that it was her (the wife's) fault they were there and that they were trying to protect their neighbors and record ICE operations. She also stated they had whistles and ICE had guns. So, there is stated intent to monitor and disrupt police operations.

When it comes to obeying secular laws, I look at Mark 12:15-17 and Romans 13:1-5.

I may disagree with the actions of both sides in this case (yes, both!), but I also hope that the investigators follow the evidence (of which I am sure we only see a small portion) and will either charge or not charge the officer based on the prevailing evidence.

I know many people disagree with the current administration...I also know many people disagreed with the previous administration. I still think that for a functioning government, we have to respect the office even if we don't respect the person. In the US and many modern countries, we are in the historically unique position to be able to elect our leaders and we have to trust that the people have elected well. If not, we also have the check and balances in the United States of 3 separate branches and have to trust that process to work - albeit slowly.

As far as the root cause of this situation - illegal immigration, I believe we are seeing the result of bad fruit from a bad tree, warned about in Matthew and Deuteronomy. I fully support legal immigration and want to see the legal process be streamlined. However, any good that is borne by illegal immigration has the taint of being sourced from poisoned fruit. Both the enforcement by ICE and the protestors are borne of that poisoned tree of illegal immigration.

FredG3 said:

The difference is that his car was an emergency vehicle with emergency lights on and parked that way because she was blocking the lane of traffic. Her wife, after the fact, stated that it was her (the wife's) fault they were there and that they were trying to protect their neighbors and record ICE operations. She also stated they had whistles and ICE had guns. So, there is stated intent to monitor and disrupt police operations.

When it comes to obeying secular laws, I look at Mark 12:15-17 and Romans 13:1-5.

I may disagree with the actions of both sides in this case (yes, both!), but I also hope that the investigators follow the evidence (of which I am sure we only see a small portion) and will either charge or not charge the officer based on the prevailing evidence.

I know many people disagree with the current administration...I also know many people disagreed with the previous administration. I still think that for a functioning government, we have to respect the office even if we don't respect the person. In the US and many modern countries, we are in the historically unique position to be able to elect our leaders and we have to trust that the people have elected well. If not, we also have the check and balances in the United States of 3 separate branches and have to trust that process to work - albeit slowly.

As far as the root cause of this situation - illegal immigration, I believe we are seeing the result of bad fruit from a bad tree, warned about in Matthew and Deuteronomy. I fully support legal immigration and want to see the legal process be streamlined. However, any good that is borne by illegal immigration has the taint of being sourced from poisoned fruit. Both the enforcement by ICE and the protestors are borne of that poisoned tree of illegal immigration.

Click to expand...

Well that's just your opinion on the matter but it doesn't alter the fact that the road was not blocked and none of what you write here justifies shooting her three times in the head. He indicates to call 911 then casually drives away - just another day's work for an ICE agent. Post #21 sums it up well.

Vanellus said:

Well that's just your opinion on the matter but it doesn't alter the fact that the road was not blocked and none of what you write here justifies shooting her three times in the head. He indicates to call 911 then casually drives away - just another day's work for an ICE agent. Post #21 sums it up well.

Click to expand...

Well, it's a bit more than just my opinion. Although, I will admit that my experiences lead me to prefering a stricter enforcement of some vehicular laws.

Every state has specific vehicle and traffic laws that are fairly similar. A quick search on Minnesota law shows a law requiring all parked vehicles to be parallel to the curb, Sec 169.35. Sec 169.20 requires yielding the right of way and pulling as close to the curb as possible to an emergency vehicle that exhibits lights and sirens. I saw that Sec 169.20 also allows for detainment or arrest for these violations, so her trying to leave the scene turns into a felony fleeing law enforcement charge.

The reason for attempting to detain is clear to me. What is not clear is the use of deadly force, but I can see the officer is in fear for his life - a 2500 pound vehicle was accelerating in his direction.

I have been an EMT for over 30 years and have had my share of close calls when working on accident scenes. Trust me, when you see a vehicle coming at you quickly, you are only thinking of how to protect yourself. Many people refuse to yield or slow down to emergency lights. I have had to jump over the guardrail and dove out of the way on at least 3 different accident scenes that were protected by multiple emergency vehicles all lit up. In the moment, your adrenaline spikes and that triggers tunnel vision (a normal physiological reaction). When that happens, your vision focuses on the main threat - the gross motion of the entire vehicle, the finer details like change in tire direction or turning of the steering wheel may not register. And, to be completely honest, if they are going fast enough or if the roads are slick, those changes may not matter much to change the direction of the vehicle in time to protect you.

Again, the use of force is my question - was he justified? Maybe, a vehicle can be a deadly weapon... but was drawing his gun the best use of his time or would it have been better to just get out of the way. I would have preferred that he just dove out of the way - there's always radios and spike strips if they really wanted to arrest her.

Renee's car wasn't "coming at" him at speed along the motorway. She was moving off having steered to the right to avoid her killer. Ross didn't have to dive out of the way he just stepped out of the way and was walking normally afterwards. The picture shows the moment he draws his gun which is just as the car starts to move forward. ICE are not traffic police and I don't know of any countries where illegal parking carries the death penalty. There was no threat to life by Renee's car and no justification for killing her. Ross had taken her number plate and could have passed on the information to the police to issue a ticket for illegal parking not shoot Renee three times in the head.

Why do we have to dissect "facts" to such a degree?

I never get involved in things like this, because I find it pointless, but if a cop is pulling me over or telling me to stop or giving instruction at all, I don't run away, I don't run towards them, I don't reach into my pocket for any reason at all, I don't yell at them, I don't do anything but stop what I'm doing and talk to them because I KNOW that if I do anything else, I might get shot.

Maybe being raised in the Southern USA means we have a different level of common sense, life experience, respect for the law or expectations of actions vs reactions.

Everything else about personality, intent on either side etc. is just white noise from others with an agenda, whatever side they claim to be on, so it all gets ignored.

T.O. Goodwin said:

There are multiple videos of the encounter from different angles. They show ICE agents approaching her stopped SUV, pulling on the door handle, and shouting.

Click to expand...

This is correct.

T.O. Goodwin said:

When the vehicle begins to move forward slowly, an agent standing directly in front of the car fires several shots at close range.

Click to expand...

I can't believe that you have seen the videos from different angles, or at least the one which combines different angles. If you compare any videos, ir i8s clear:

• Just before the incident, a (civil?) car passed her car, so she did not block the whole street (0:13-0:17 on that video).
• After the agents shouted at her, she drove back, not forward (e.g., at the very start of the video).
• Then she turned the gear and passed the officer in front of her, and while she passed him he shot at her.

These are facts. Interpretation is still possible: Did she get so close to the agent that he thought he were in danger?

T.O. Goodwin said:

There’s also a clear conflict between how federal officials have described her and how her family and community describe her. Federal statements have labeled her a dangerous agitator. Her family, neighbors, and ex‑husband say she was not political, not involved in protests, and not someone who would intentionally threaten anyone. They describe her as a mother who was frightened and confused in a chaotic moment.

Click to expand...

If you are caught by ICE, you may end up in a Central American prison, even if you are US citizen. No wonder she was frightened.

T.O. Goodwin said:

Because of that contradiction, and because the footage hasn’t been fully released, many people believe the situation deserves closer scrutiny before accepting any official narrative. That isn’t an attack on law enforcement — it’s simply acknowledging that the available evidence is mixed and that the public deserves clarity.

Click to expand...

Contradicting the agents is a an attack of law enforcement. At least in the eyes of Mr. Trump, who always preferred his view over the facts. Remember how he justified the attempt to steal the election on that 6th of January!

Why hasn't Good's wife released her cell phone video?

ChubbyCherub said:

Why do we have to dissect "facts" to such a degree?

I never get involved in things like this, because I find it pointless, but if a cop is pulling me over or telling me to stop or giving instruction at all, I don't run away, I don't run towards them, I don't reach into my pocket for any reason at all, I don't yell at them, I don't do anything but stop what I'm doing and talk to them because I KNOW that if I do anything else, I might get shot.

Maybe being raised in the Southern USA means we have a different level of common sense, life experience, respect for the law or expectations of actions vs reactions.

Everything else about personality, intent on either side etc. is just white noise from others with an agenda, whatever side they claim to be on, so it all gets ignored.

Click to expand...

These were ICE officers not "cops". And if they can murder with impunity what next? Renee didn't reach into her pocket or yell at them. She had been told to drive away and she had spoken to her killer moments before saying "I'm not mad at you". The lack of common sense here was shown by her killer. Maybe you wouldn't mind living in a country where you are in fear of your life in the way you described. I wouldn't want to.

Vanellus said:

These were ICE officers not "cops". And if they can murder with impunity what next? Renee didn't reach into her pocket or yell at them. She had been told to drive away and she had spoken to her killer moments before saying "I'm not mad at you". The lack of common sense here was shown by her killer. Maybe you don't mind living in a country where you are in fear of your life in the way you described. I wouldn't want to.

Click to expand...

Maybe I believe in self preservation and understand that acting any way but compliant with ANY branch of law enforcement imperils my life. Whatever the situation, whatever the country.

Maybe I understand that, if I get shot and killed, and they are found guilty or innocent in court, I'm still dead.

Maybe that's what I was saying.

BPPLEE said:

Why hasn't Good's wife released her cell phone video?

Click to expand...

Which video? I haven't seen any video that hints at Good taking a video.
She did not release a video because it did not exist.

ChubbyCherub said:

Maybe I believe in self preservation and understand that acting any way but compliant with ANY branch of law enforcement imperils my life. Whatever the situation, whatever the country.

Click to expand...

You are wrong. There are countries where the police (or whatever sort of law-enforcement is involved) dies not over-react in such a manner.
The USA are special, because there are so many weapons. A burglar has to reckon with an inhabitant that will shoot on him if detected, so he takes a gun with him. In other countries he only has the tools to come into the house with him …

ChubbyCherub said:

Maybe I understand that, if I get shot and killed, and they are found guilty or innocent in court, I'm still dead.

Click to expand...

Maybe she thought that they would not shoot on her if she drives away …

About 10 years ago, Trump said he could stand on the 5th avenue and shoot someone, and would lose no one voter.

It was not the 5th avenue, it was not Trump personally (it was one of his ICY agents), but some comments seem to prove that Donald the liar said the truth in this sentence.

Michie said:

A couple of days ago in Minneapolis, Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents were conducting a lawful immigration operation when Renee Nicole Macklin Good allegedly weaponized her vehicle in an attempt to run over federal agents. An ICE agent fatally shot Good in what the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) described as self-defense. The investigation is ongoing, and body camera footage has yet to be released (at the time of this writing).

Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey immediately blamed federal agents for the shooting, telling ICE, in an expletive, to “get out of Minneapolis” and accusing them of sowing chaos. This despite the fact that ICE agents were performing their constitutional duty to enforce immigration laws — the same laws that apply in every state, including Minnesota.

The Minnesota Police and Peace Officers Association condemned the “irresponsible” and “reckless rhetoric from political leaders attacking law enforcement,” stating it “has real and dangerous consequences for officers on the street” and “fuels hostility.” DHS reports a 1,300% increase in assaults and an 8,000% increase in death threats against ICE agents — directly linked to the demonization by sanctuary politicians in deep-blue cities and states.

Continued below.

Minneapolis ICE Shooting: Toxic Empathy vs. the Rule of Law | Standing for Freedom Center

Christians must recognize that when mayors declare their cities off limits to the rule of law and private citizens take that declaration as a license to try to protect criminals by weaponizing their vehicle against law enforcement, there can be severe and potentially lethal consequences — as...

www.standingforfreedom.com

Click to expand...

Definitely a very biased article. Why is Trump only targeting Blue states for these ICE raids? There are illegal immigrants in every state. Let him send the agents into Dallas, Miami, New Orleans, El Paso, etc... Maybe those places can be a win for Trump.

Yarddog said:

Definitely a very biased article. Why is Trump only targeting Blue states for these ICE raids? There are illegal immigrants in every state. Let him send the agents into Dallas, Miami, New Orleans, El Paso, etc... Maybe those places can be a win for Trump.

Click to expand...

Perhaps he is not sending ICE agents into those other states en mass because law enforcement in those states are actually holding illegal immigrants who have committed crimes and handing them off to ICE in the jail system, which is a controlled and much safer environment.

I am wondering if the states that are opposing ICE are actually doing their immigrant communities a disservice. By refusing to hand over illegal immigrants who commit crimes in the jail system, they have led to the Feds sending ICE agents to these locations looking for those with criminal records, at which point they are also coming into contact with the rest of the immigrant community and put into a position where they do have to arrest people whose only crime may have been the illegal immigration... and who may have been left off ICE's radar initially.

I am interested in what is meant by 'toxic empathy'. What does this mean. How can empathy be toxic.

stevevw said:

I am interested in what is meant by 'toxic empathy'. What does this mean. How can empathy be toxic.

Click to expand...

Well to a person with next to no empathy, it is logical that empathy is not good. Musk said something in that direction, the article is another example.
I remember the German rightists phrase Gutmensch (good-man), which denounces the humanitarian attitudes of Christian, liberals, leftists, and whatsoever.

Helmut-WK said:

Well to a person with next to no empathy, it is logical that empathy is not good. Musk said something in that direction, the article is another example.
I remember the German rightists phrase Gutmensch (good-man), which denounces the humanitarian attitudes of Christian, liberals, leftists, and whatsoever.

Click to expand...

Is that like how the German guards and officers followed Hitlers rules regardless of humanity. Sort of switched off their humanity to follow rules. More or less Kants deontological ethical theory.

The rules or law becomes the only means of what is right or wrong. Regardless of the consequences.

stevevw said:

Is that like how the German guards and officers followed Hitlers rules regardless of humanity. Sort of switched off their humanity to follow rules. More or less Kants deontological ethical theory.

Click to expand...

The German officials, officers etc. followed Hitler not because of Kant, but because of Luther and his interpretation of Rom 13.
I suppose they knew about »Kants deontological ethical theory« as much as I do. You may explain it to me, if you want …