ICE Violently Detained 2 U.S. Citizens While at Work at Target.

MarcusGregor · Monday at 12:44 PM

Local community members are crying for Target to stand with Minnesotans

Community members in Richfield Minnesota are calling on Target Corporate to do more after ICE detained two employees this week.

www.cbsnews.com

How can this be defended? How can anyone watch this and think this is okay? This is normal? This is acceptable to keep us "safe"?

Both men were U.S. citizens and were released. One was a 17-year old kid who they dropped off at a Walmart 8 miles away after they verified he was a citizen, there is video of it that I can't post because of the language and the sensitive dispositions of this forum. Go look it up. It's heartbreaking. They were arrested because they were brown. Plain and simple.

This is outrageous. It is Dangerous. This is not going to end well for this country.

Larniavc · Monday at 1:09 PM

They should be grateful to have not been shot and killed.

But all laughing and joking aside these are exactly the type of good brown folks who need to be protected from the bad brown folks.

Can anyone really be blamed for not being able to tell the difference?

durangodawood · Monday at 1:38 PM

The easy solution is to make brown citizens get a chip, then ICE could just scan people as they go by and pick up only the illegals.

ThatRobGuy · Monday at 1:39 PM

So a little additional background on this story:

In the now-viral videos taken by bystanders, border patrol agents are seen pinning two men to the ground, who, according to a witness, are drive-up employees. One of the workers is heard shouting his name in the video, saying he's a U.S. citizen. The other man also told witnesses he's a U.S. citizen.

Per observers, agents were approaching Target and asked the workers outside whether they were citizens. The workers didn't answer and instead tried to go inside, at which point they were grabbed.

MSN

This MSN link/video has the full exchange.

The officers were asking them questions, and rather than respond to the questions, the one started walking quickly away and ignoring them, and the other also walked away and started making a line for the store entrance while yelling expletives at the officers.

They're walking behind them slowly and repeating their requests multiple times. So it wasn't a "tackle first, ask questions later" scenario. They walked behind and followed them for a good 150 feet asking them asking them the question, and it was only after the tackling that they yelled "I'm a citizen!"

Larniavc said:
Can anyone really be blamed for not being able to tell the difference?

To this aspect, it's an unfortunate case where being "description adjacent" + "chip on shoulder" leads to an unfortunate outcome.

Pretend for a moment that the DEA got a tip about some bikers dealing meth out of a bar parking lot and to look into it.

They roll up to the establishment and see two bikers that look kinda like the people they're after. They approach and say "We have some questions for you, can we see your IDs", and the two bikers make a b-line for the door while one is yelling "bleep you".

One has to admit, that's not a great situation.

BCP1928 · Monday at 1:43 PM

ThatRobGuy said:
So a little additional background on this story:

In the now-viral videos taken by bystanders, border patrol agents are seen pinning two men to the ground, who, according to a witness, are drive-up employees. One of the workers is heard shouting his name in the video, saying he's a U.S. citizen. The other man also told witnesses he's a U.S. citizen.

Per observers, agents were approaching Target and asked the workers outside whether they were citizens. The workers didn't answer and instead tried to go inside, at which point they were grabbed.

MSN

This MSN link/video has the full exchange.

The officers were asking them questions, and rather than respond to the questions, the one started walking quickly away and ignoring them, and the other also walked away and started making a line for the store entrance while yelling expletives at the officers.

They're walking behind them slowly and repeating their requests multiple times.

To this aspect, it's an unfortunate case where being "description adjacent" + "chip on shoulder" leads to an unfortunate outcome.

Pretend for a moment that the DEA got a tip about some bikers dealing meth out of a bar parking lot and to look into it.

They roll up to the establishment and see two bikers that look kinda like the people they're after. They approach and say "We have some questions for you, can we see your IDs", and the two bikers make a b-line for the door while one is yelling "bleep you"

One has to admit, that's not a great situation.

But truly the right response for a free American citizen. Good for them.

durangodawood · Monday at 1:44 PM

ThatRobGuy said:
So a little additional background on this story:

In the now-viral videos taken by bystanders, border patrol agents are seen pinning two men to the ground, who, according to a witness, are drive-up employees. One of the workers is heard shouting his name in the video, saying he's a U.S. citizen. The other man also told witnesses he's a U.S. citizen.

Per observers, agents were approaching Target and asked the workers outside whether they were citizens. The workers didn't answer and instead tried to go inside, at which point they were grabbed.

MSN

This MSN link/video has the full exchange.

The officers were asking them questions, and rather than respond to the questions, the one started walking quickly away and ignoring them, and the other also walked away and started making a line for the store entrance while yelling expletives at the officers.

They're walking behind them slowly and repeating their requests multiple times. So it wasn't a "tackle first, ask questions later" scenario. They walked behind and followed them for a good 150 feet asking them asking them the question, and it was only after the tackling that they yelled "I'm a citizen!"

To this aspect, it's an unfortunate case where being "description adjacent" + "chip on shoulder" leads to an unfortunate outcome.

Pretend for a moment that the DEA got a tip about some bikers dealing meth out of a bar parking lot and to look into it.

They roll up to the establishment and see two bikers that look kinda like the people they're after. They approach and say "We have some questions for you, can we see your IDs", and the two bikers make a b-line for the door while one is yelling "bleep you".

One has to admit, that's not a great situation.

Whats the specific crime for which these brown guys match a description?

ThatRobGuy · Monday at 1:49 PM

BCP1928 said:
But truly the right response for a free American citizen. Good for them.

It may be a principled response based on a libertarian utopia, but it's certainly not the response one gives if they're looking to avoid a bad exchange with law enforcement.

If I got approached and the cop asks me "have you had anything to drink, we got a call from someone that said they saw a 6'1 white dude in a grey hoodie appearing to be intoxicated", and me, being innocent, but wanting to prove a point...go with the approach of rather than answer, I either ignore them or I tell the cop to go fornicate himself while making a b-line to walk into a building to get away from them... that's not a situation one expects to end well.

Hans Blaster · Monday at 1:50 PM

MarcusGregor said:
One was a 17-year old kid who they dropped off at a Walmart 8 miles away after they verified he was a citizen,

Wal*mart and Target are not the same store. Are these ICEers dumb or cruel? (I suspect both, but we need more data.)

MarcusGregor · Monday at 1:52 PM

ThatRobGuy said:
So a little additional background on this story:

In the now-viral videos taken by bystanders, border patrol agents are seen pinning two men to the ground, who, according to a witness, are drive-up employees. One of the workers is heard shouting his name in the video, saying he's a U.S. citizen. The other man also told witnesses he's a U.S. citizen.

Per observers, agents were approaching Target and asked the workers outside whether they were citizens. The workers didn't answer and instead tried to go inside, at which point they were grabbed.

MSN

This MSN link/video has the full exchange.

The officers were asking them questions, and rather than respond to the questions, the one started walking quickly away and ignoring them, and the other also walked away and started making a line for the store entrance while yelling expletives at the officers.

They're walking behind them slowly and repeating their requests multiple times. So it wasn't a "tackle first, ask questions later" scenario. They walked behind and followed them for a good 150 feet asking them asking them the question, and it was only after the tackling that they yelled "I'm a citizen!"

To this aspect, it's an unfortunate case where being "description adjacent" + "chip on shoulder" leads to an unfortunate outcome.

Pretend for a moment that the DEA got a tip about some bikers dealing meth out of a bar parking lot and to look into it.

They roll up to the establishment and see two bikers that look kinda like the people they're after. They approach and say "We have some questions for you, can we see your IDs", and the two bikers make a b-line for the door while one is yelling "bleep you".

One has to admit, that's not a great situation.

If a commissioned police officer walks up to me randomly in a parking lot and starts asking me questions without informing me I am detained for an investigation I am not required to answer him or even acknowledge his presence nor can he keep me there without informing me I am detained and he must have articulatable, reasonable suspicion that I have committed or know about a crime that has been committed. ICE has even less authority to do anything like that. Walking away from an officer who has not detained you is not a crime. Saying "bleep you" to any officer is not a crime and is protected free speech according to numerous SCOTUS rulings. Being brown is not reasonable suspicion of being in the country illegally.

ThatRobGuy · Monday at 1:54 PM

durangodawood said:
Whats the specific crime for which these brown guys match a description?

The LEOs were clearly at the Target location for a reason, I'm assuming there was some sort of tip or report that the location may have been employing undocumented people.

ICE typically gets their target locations (lower case "t", this location just happened to be a "T"arget) through 3 main channels
- Tips
- I-9 audits
- Pulling records of prior infractions

Hans Blaster · Monday at 1:56 PM

ThatRobGuy said:
The LEOs were clearly at the Target location for a reason, I'm assuming there was some sort of tip or report that the location may have been employing undocumented people.

ICE typically gets their target locations (lower case "t", this location just happened to be a "T"arget) through 3 main channels
- Tips

I don't tip if they don't bring me my food.

ThatRobGuy said:
- I-9 audits

Are done in the office with the employment records.

ThatRobGuy said:
- Pulling records of prior infractions

Then they have names and faces of the targeted individuals.

(And I have to add that a major, corporate retailer is unlikely to be a knowing violator of the hiring documentation rules.)

durangodawood · Monday at 1:57 PM

ThatRobGuy said:
The LEOs were clearly at the Target location for a reason, I'm assuming there was some sort of tip or report that the location may have been employing undocumented people.

ICE typically gets their target locations (lower case "t", this location just happened to be a "T"arget) through 3 main channels
- Tips
- I-9 audits
- Pulling records of prior infractions

So then arrest Target if they were suspected of a crime.

MarcusGregor · Monday at 1:58 PM

ThatRobGuy said:
The LEOs were clearly at the Target location for a reason, I'm assuming there was some sort of tip or report that the location may have been employing undocumented people.

ICE typically gets their target locations (lower case "t", this location just happened to be a "T"arget) through 3 main channels
- Tips
- I-9 audits
- Pulling records of prior infractions

This is moot. They didn't know who these guys were. They were literally just asking the brown employees they saw if they were citizens. They had ZERO prior information about anything.

Do you know how we know this?

THEY RELEASED THEM IN A WALMART PARKING LOT DOWN THE ROAD WITHOUT ANY CHARGES BECAUSE THEY WERE CITIZENS AND HAD NOT COMMITTED ANY CRIME!!!!

ThatRobGuy · Monday at 1:59 PM

MarcusGregor said:
If a commissioned police officer walks up to me randomly in a parking lot and starts asking me questions without informing me I am detained for an investigation I am not required to answer him or even acknowledge his presence nor can he keep me there without informing me I am detained and he must have articulatable, reasonable suspicion that I have committed or know about a crime that has been committed. ICE has even less authority to do anything like that. Walking away from an officer who has not detained you is not a crime. Saying "bleep you" to any officer is not a crime and is protected free speech according to numerous SCOTUS rulings. Being brown is not reasonable suspicion of being in the country illegally.

Per the Government website under the FAQ
ICE does not need judicial warrants to make arrests. Like all other law enforcement officers, ICE officers and agents can initiate encounters and speak with people and briefly detain when they have reasonable suspicion.

MarcusGregor · Monday at 2:02 PM

ThatRobGuy said:
Per the Government website under the FAQ
ICE does not need judicial warrants to make arrests. Like all other law enforcement officers, ICE officers and agents can initiate encounters and speak with people and briefly detain when they have reasonable suspicion.

Being brown is not reasonable suspicion of being in the country illegally.

BCP1928 · Monday at 2:04 PM

ThatRobGuy said:
It may be a principled response based on a libertarian utopia, but it's certainly not the response one gives if they're looking to avoid a bad exchange with law enforcement.

With ICE they rightly expect to have a bad experience anyway.

ThatRobGuy said:
If I got approached and the cop asks me "have you had anything to drink, we got a call from someone that said they saw a 6'1 white dude in a grey hoodie appearing to be intoxicated", and me, being innocent, but wanting to prove a point...go with the approach of rather than answer, I either ignore them or I tell the cop to go fornicate himself while making a b-line to walk into a building to get away from them... that's not a situation one expects to end well.

If you don't show signs of intoxication to them they have no grounds to detain you. Whether you speak to them or not is your own right to decide. But your hypothetical is useless, because it's about a real cop, not one of Kristi's culture warriors who don't have a legal right to demand the ID of random people they encounter. What in the hell do you think people are protesting about, anyway?

BCP1928 · Monday at 2:06 PM

ThatRobGuy said:
Per the Government website under the FAQ
ICE does not need judicial warrants to make arrests. Like all other law enforcement officers, ICE officers and agents can initiate encounters and speak with people and briefly detain when they have reasonable suspicion.

What government website?

Larniavc · Monday at 3:22 PM

ThatRobGuy said:
They roll up to the establishment and see two bikers that look kinda like the people they're after. They approach and say "We have some questions for you, can we see your IDs", and the two bikers make a b-line for the door while one is yelling "bleep you".

So being brown in this example is being the bikers?

Pommer · Monday at 3:32 PM

ThatRobGuy said:
So a little additional background on this story:

In the now-viral videos taken by bystanders, border patrol agents are seen pinning two men to the ground, who, according to a witness, are drive-up employees. One of the workers is heard shouting his name in the video, saying he's a U.S. citizen. The other man also told witnesses he's a U.S. citizen.

Per observers, agents were approaching Target and asked the workers outside whether they were citizens. The workers didn't answer and instead tried to go inside, at which point they were grabbed.

MSN

This MSN link/video has the full exchange.

The officers were asking them questions, and rather than respond to the questions, the one started walking quickly away and ignoring them, and the other also walked away and started making a line for the store entrance while yelling expletives at the officers.

They're walking behind them slowly and repeating their requests multiple times. So it wasn't a "tackle first, ask questions later" scenario. They walked behind and followed them for a good 150 feet asking them asking them the question, and it was only after the tackling that they yelled "I'm a citizen!"

To this aspect, it's an unfortunate case where being "description adjacent" + "chip on shoulder" leads to an unfortunate outcome.

Pretend for a moment that the DEA got a tip about some bikers dealing meth out of a bar parking lot and to look into it.

They roll up to the establishment and see two bikers that look kinda like the people they're after. They approach and say "We have some questions for you, can we see your IDs", and the two bikers make a b-line for the door while one is yelling "bleep you".

One has to admit, that's not a great situation.

One doesn’t need to engage with ICE if one doesn’t want to. A “consensual encounter” is a courtesy given to LEOs, it’s not mandatory.

wing2000 · Monday at 4:14 PM

MarcusGregor said:
Being brown is not reasonable suspicion of being in the country illegally.

...from an earlier USSC shadow docket ruling after a lower court halted immigration arrest based on racial profiling in California (Noem v. Perdomo):

Kavanaugh added, although “apparent ethnicity alone cannot furnish reasonable suspicion” for an immigration stop, reasonable suspicion can rest on the “totality of the circumstances.” Here, he stressed, circumstances such as the “extremely high number and percentage of illegal immigrants in the Los Angeles area,” the fact that undocumented immigrants often “gather in certain locations to seek daily work” and “often work in certain kinds of jobs, such as day labor, landscaping, agriculture, and construction,” and “that many of those illegally in the Los Angeles area come from Mexico or Central America and do not speak much English” can, when “taken together,” “constitute at least reasonable suspicion of illegal presence in the United States.”

Supreme Court allows federal officers to more freely make immigration stops in LA

The Supreme Court on Monday paused a ruling by a federal judge in Los Angeles that imposed restrictions on the ability of federal agents to make immigration stops that the […]

www.scotusblog.com

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ICE Violently Detained 2 U.S. Citizens While at Work at Target.

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