"The Meaning of Foreknew in Romans 8:29"

Dan Perez said:

AND I. still say FIRST and I know that PROTOS. can. be Translated by CHIEF or FIRST !!

AND anyone that reads 1 Tim 1:16 the HOLY SPIRIT had Paul write the word " me. " which in. the Greek text means

ME is EMPHATIC. meaning PAUL and no one ELSE and Paul is the PATTERN TO ALL WHO ARE SAVED

and was the. ONE whom was given the DISPENSATION of the MYSTERY in. Rom 16:25

and to be in. the FAITH. better know Rom 16:26. is my recommendation. !!

dan p

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I think that Paul is just being humble. He's using himself as an example that anyone could be saved if they repent and believe. Paul is "chief", or "foremost" in that regard, is basically saying that he's an example of the depths that God can go to save someone.

Dave

Hentenza said:

I like to keep things simple and rely on the obvious hermeneutic. The word is proginosko which is only used 5 times in the NT and all relate to knowing in advance. The OP posted some of them. Knowing that God is omniscient with perfect knowledge and since the verse relates to people then God has always known who would choose Him. It is simply foreknowledge. If anyone believes in an omniscient God then it follows that He has always known the totality of history and everyone’s decisions.

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Hey @Hentenza

Acts 26:5, Romans 8:29, Romans 11:2, 1 Peter 1:20, and 2 Peter 3:17,

None of these are speaking of foreknowledge except 2 Peter 3:17. The others are speaking of a specific people. Thus "Whom He foreknew" of Romans 8:29 is speaking about a people, not an event seen before it happened. Nowhere in this passage does it say from the foundations of the world, like it did in 1 Peter 1:20. Romans 11:2, and 8:29, in context, are speaking of OT believers, Spiritual Israel. "Whom Hew foreknew". The context defines it.

Dave

Hentenza said:

Hi @dave,

Hope you had a wonderful Christmas and I pray that you and yours have a blessed next year.

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Thanks, right back at you.

Hentenza said:

I’m going to agree with you about Acts 26:5 since this refers to people that knew Paul for a long time. However, the other verses do speak of foreknowledge. Since God is an infinite, all powerful and omniscient being then it follows that all foreknowledge is also eternal. He has always known so from the foundation of the world is implied by His attributes.


“God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 11:2 (NASB2020) - God has not rejected His people who | YouVersion

God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

bible.com

This passage refers to Israel which He clearly foreknew as the verse states.

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Here it's saying that these are people who God foreknew, rather than Paul. I think this verse points right back to Romans 8:28-29.

Hentenza said:

“For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1‬:‭20‬-‭21‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

1 Peter 1:20-21 (NASB2020) - For He was foreknown before the fou | YouVersion

For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory,

bible.com

This verse refers to Christ which, of course, God the Father foreknew that He would send to the world as the sacrificial lamb to die for us. This verse does speak about foreknowledge and God always knew this. It was always part of His plan.

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Again, this is not speaking of foreknowledge, but foreknown, or foreknew means more here. It's pregnant meaning, as people from the reformed side of things will point out. And I agree. It is unnecessary to ad to the meaning of "He was foreknown before the foundations of the world".

Hentenza said:

“For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭29‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 8:29 (NASB2020) - For those whom He foreknew, He also | YouVersion

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters

bible.com

Those that He foreknew were people that He knew would have faith in Him. This does not preclude an option or decision but only that He knew it from eternity. And then the rest of this verse and the next flow from there.

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Again, it's speaking of 'whom' God foreknew. It is unnecessary to ad to that simple meaning. Ephesians 1:9-14 should be considered a parallel passage to Romans 8:28-29.

John 14:6-7 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

He *knew them*, before Pentecost, before they were indwelt with the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17) Before the Promise of the Father was given (Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4) - Pentecost), before they were 'in Christ' and born again (Ephesians 1:13-14, 1 Peter 1:3). OT believers were not even yet justified, except by promise (Romans 3:25). romans 8:28-29 it specifically says that they are predestined to be conformed to Christlikeness. That's a message aimed directly at OT believers.

Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called (John 10:27-28); whom He called, these He also justified (Romans 3:25); and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

OT believers, are predestined to be conformed to Christ's image, beginning with the indwelling which places them in Christ. OT believers had to wait until Christ was lifted up and the Promise of the Father was given. They were already declared righteous by their OT faith. they needed to hear the Gospel and upgrade their faith, for lack of a better way to say it.

Cornelius in Acts 10 was a man known by God before he came to faith in Jesus Christ. You can see God taking that OT faith and as predestined, seeing it through to a NT faith in Jesus Christ. Just like with Lydia. That's what I believe Romans 9 is speaking of. They were already known by God, intimately, but predestined to come to faith in Jesus. All that the Father gives Me, I shall not lose one of them.

Dan Perez said:

And I have yet to see REPENT in Rom 10:9. and 10. , nor in Eph 2:8 and in Gal 6 :17 Paul says he bears the BRANDS

OF the Lord Jesus in my BODY as God kept him HUMBLE !!

dan p

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I'm not sure what your getting at here, Dan, maybe you can elaborate.

Dave

Hentenza said:

I don’t have that interpretation since Acts 26 is Paul’s defense to King Agrippa. In verse 5 “they” are the Jews and “me” is Paul. The Jews knew Saul as a Pharisee and prosecutor of the church which are two themes that he talks about in the next verses. I only see a straight forward hermeneutic in this verse.

Ok. I don’t like pregnant meanings because they tend to spiritualize scripture. I tend to use the simple interpretation if it makes sense with the context.

Agreed.

Again, I prefer the simple interpretation. I don’t see the message being directed at the OT believers but to all in Christ as verse one clearly states. Those whom He foreknew will also include OT believers whom by faith He will conform to Christ just as He did with Abraham.

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Adding one of the two examples given below to "Whom He foreknew", is adding to the text.

"Whom He foreknew" [would believe]. Adding to the text.

"Whom He foreknew" [from the foundations of the world] Adding to the text.

"Whom He foreknew". Not adding to the text. "Whom" tells us it's not and act but a people. This IS the simple interpretation.

Here's how I see it. Just for the record.

It doesn't say foreknew from the foundations of the world. Just as the Calvinist writer/s of that article in the OP claim that the Arminians add to that that word "foreknew" from some notion that is not contained in the text, quote: "It is for this reason that the Arminians are forced to add some qualifying notion. They read into the passage some idea not contained in the language itself such as those whom He foreknew would believe etc., He predestined, called and justified." I'm making that same claim about the Calvinist position on that same passage. It doesn't say whom He foreknew from the foundations of the world. It just says whom He foreknew.

It seems that at least most, if not all of the main Calvinist proof texts assume that very same thing, when the context always shows those same proof texts to be speaking of OT believers. Lydia? OT believer. Gentiles in Acts? OT believers. Jews? In Romans 8:29 and elsewhere? OT believers. Mathew, Mark, Luke and John before the cross? OT believers.

Also, the point that I'm making does not rely on what was done from the foundations of the world. Calvinist's TULIP does, not the Bible. God, from His omniscience, can decree from eternity, and positively ordain (allow) OT believers to come to faith. Decreeing that from foreknowledge. Then knowing this, predestine them from that first faith in Adam (Allowed), to a living faith in Christ (caused). Thus, He would not lose one of them. In other words, the only ones guaranteed to be predestined (caused), were OT believers who were already saved by their OT faith, which they came to not by being predestined (caused), but ordained (allowed). All of this decreed from the foundations of the world. I believe that the term predestined in romans 8:29 is used in the smaller context, from OT faith to NT faith. The first faith (OT) ordained, the second faith (NT) predestined, all decreed from the foundations of the world.

Those whom He foreknew intimately, believing Israel, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers.

This last part is very significant. OT Jews had to wait for Jesus, that's what "firstborn among many brothers" means. Jesus was the first fruits of those Promises that the writer of Hebrews spoke about. It appears to me that this is a message mostly significant to Spiritual Israel.

Remember, "ordain" can mean positively cause (predestine), or positively allowed. BTW, this is not bare permission, as the Arminian believes. Ordain is an umbrella word that, under it, can have God both positively allowing and and causing (predestine).

Think about it. How could God guarantee that the all that He gave the Son, that the Son would not lose one of them? Because they were predestined to be conformed to Christlikeness. Nobody is saved but by Jesus. One must be "in Christ" to be saved. Predestine=cause. There must be a death and resurrection to be saved by. There must be and agent that places us into Christ, that's the Holy Spirit. All this waited for Christ to be lifted up. At Pentecost, these OT believers were now made saved, officially, not just by promise, but actually saved. That's what Romans 8:28-29 is saying.

Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called (John 10:27-28); whom He called, these He also justified (Romans 3:25); and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

This next passage in John is saying the same thing. It parallels Romans 8:29-30. This is still before the cross and still OT.

John 6:37-39 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

6:44 No one (OT believer) can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him (predestined-caused); and I will raise him up at the last day.

Some more, for the record.

Calvinist claim is that "whom He foreknew" is speaking of a specific people because of the "whom". I agree with that. The claim by them is that the Arminian view changes that to 'whom He foreknew would come to faith'. In other words, they claim that Arminians changed the "whom He foreknew" into a "what He foreknew". Although, I think it's fair to say that Arminianism qualifies 'Whom He foreknew' with someone coming to faith. In other words, "whom" cannot be separated, or put before faith, because faith is the qualifier that determines the "whom". It's not adding to the Word, it's doing what Calvinism does, seeing through a different lens. Calvinism adds 'whom He foreknew from the foundations of the world' in that same way. It's not in the text, but it's added because in the Calvinist mindset, that's the context that they see it in.

I think that Arminianism is on track with that thought of not separating our faith from God knowing us personally, intimately. So in a sense, it is foreseeing that qualifies the foreknowing, if we qualify our being foreknown by Him with that faith, while holding to the original meaning of 'whom He foreknew', meaning intimately. So, in Arminianism, faith qualifies God foreknowing someone intimately. Calvinist will argue that foreknown is changed from a who to a what, but I disagree. It's just qualified with faith. Still, "whom He foreknew" is not speaking of foreknowledge. foreknowledge is implied because in "Whom He foreknew", it's qualified by the faith of that person.

Does that make sense?