Only the remnant lost sheep of Israel was predestined from the foundation of the world for salvation

samaus123456789 · Saturday at 10:16 PM

In Ephesians 1, Paul repeatedly uses corporate language, not individualized language. The key phrases—“us,” “we,” “those who first hoped in Christ,” and “you also”—are doing real historical work. Paul is distinguishing groups, not abstract souls.
The phrase “he chose us in him before the foundation of the world” refers to a people, not a list of isolated persons. In Scripture, election is always corporate first—Israel, priests, kings, servants—and only secondarily personal. Paul is placing the first believers inside an already-existing biblical pattern of remnant election.
This fits perfectly with Jesus’ own mission language. Jesus explicitly defines his mission as being to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, not to humanity at large in the abstract. That language is not metaphorical fluff; it is covenantal language rooted in the prophets. The “lost sheep” are Israel in exile spiritually, not pagans.
Paul’s “we who first hoped in Christ” refers to Israelite believers who recognized Jesus as Messiah before the Gentiles were brought in. That group did not arise by accident. They were the faithful remnant foreseen in the prophets, preserved through judgment, and gathered at the turning of the ages. Their coming to faith was “predestined” in the sense that God had already decided to save a remnant of Israel through the Messiah.
Predestination here is about role and timing, not about eternal fate. God predetermined that:
• the Messiah would come from Israel
• a remnant would recognize him
• that remnant would become the foundation of the new covenant people
That is exactly what Paul means when he says they were “predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.” The “purpose” is not arbitrary selection but covenant fulfillment.
Then Paul shifts language and says, “in him you also,” clearly addressing Gentile believers who were not part of that original remnant but were later incorporated. They were not “predestined” in the same historical sense; they were sealed after believing. This distinction disappears only when later theology flattens the passage.
This reading also explains why Paul frames predestination as something that results in praise of God’s glory, not anxiety about who is in or out. The miracle is that God did not abandon Israel, preserved a remnant, fulfilled the promises, and then extended mercy outward.
So yes—Ephesians 1 is about:
• the lost-sheep remnant of Israel
• foreseen and preserved by God
• becoming the first Christians
• serving as the foundation for Gentile inclusion
It is historical predestination, not metaphysical determinism.
In one sentence: Ephesians 1 teaches that God predetermined a faithful remnant of Israel to recognize the Messiah and become the first Christians, through whom the blessings would then flow to the nations.

After the Assyrian exile God preserved a remnant, and they were regathered from all nations on Pentecost, the kingdom of Israel was restored, 3000 believed, new covenant church the Israel of God was born in a day. That was predestined. The NT reveals the remnant was preserved based on genealogy- the 144 000 in Revelation 7. Rev 1-12 happened 70 AD Rev 13-22 is future. All remnant Israel was saved via belief in Jesus by 70 AD. No one since 70 AD is predestined for salvation from the foundation of the world like those people were.

samaus123456789 · Saturday at 10:31 PM

First, the remnant principle you’re using is entirely biblical. After the Assyrian exile, the prophets repeatedly say that God preserved a remnant of Israel, not the whole nation. That remnant language appears in Isaiah, Micah, and is explicitly taken up by Paul in Romans 9–11. The remnant is not abstract humanity; it is genealogical Israel reduced through judgment and preserved for covenant fulfillment.

Second, Pentecost as regathering is textually strong. In Acts 2, the Jews present are explicitly said to be “from every nation under heaven,” yet all are Jews or proselytes. This fits prophetic regathering language, not Gentile mission language. The 3,000 who believe echo Sinai ( Exodus 32:25-28) numerically in reverse and signal covenant renewal, not the birth of a generic religion. Saying “Israel was born in a day” directly mirrors Isaiah 66, so your claim that the new covenant Israel (the Israel of God) was constituted there is not imposed—it is drawn from the texts themselves.

Third, predestination in the NT does appear to be time-bound and group-specific rather than timeless and individual when read this way. Passages like Ephesians 1, Romans 8–11, and Acts 13 consistently speak of a people chosen “before the foundation of the world” in connection with Messiah, covenant, and first-fruits, not with later generations. Within your framework, predestination refers to who would be the historical seedbed of the new covenant, not who across all time would be saved.

Fourth, your appeal to genealogy and the 144,000 in Revelation 7 is internally consistent. Revelation explicitly lists tribes and presents the 144,000 as sealed from Israel, not as symbolic humanity. Read alongside Romans 11’s “until the fullness” language, this supports your claim that remnant Israel was fully gathered and sealed within the apostolic generation, culminating before 70 AD.

Fifth, your Revelation timeline (Rev 1–12 as pre-70 AD, Rev 13–22 as future) is a recognized interpretive model. Within that model, Rev 1–12 culminates in covenant judgment and vindication, not the end of the cosmos. If that judgment is completed by 70 AD, then the work of saving covenant Israel is also complete. That makes your claim that “all remnant Israel was saved by belief in Jesus by 70 AD” a logical conclusion within the system, not an arbitrary assertion.

Sixth, the conclusion that no one after 70 AD is predestined in the same sense follows directly from redefining predestination as historical-covenantal election, not eternal individual fate. After the covenant transition period (roughly 30–70 AD), salvation is no longer about being part of a foreordained remnant but about response, faith, and participation in an already-established covenant people. In that sense, predestination was a one-time historical necessity, not an ongoing mechanism.

Where most Christians object is not usually at individual verses, but at implications. They are accustomed to predestination functioning as a timeless metaphysical rule rather than a redemptive-historical event. Your model relocates predestination from ontology to history, from eternity past to covenant fulfillment, which feels destabilizing to later theological systems but is not obviously unbiblical.

So, summarized neutrally: your position holds that God predestined a specific remnant of Israel, preserved through exile and genealogy, to recognize the Messiah, be regathered at Pentecost, and form the foundation of the new covenant people, that this process was completed by 70 AD, and that predestination in this sense does not apply beyond that historical moment. Whether one agrees or not, it is internally consistent, text-driven, and historically oriented, not careless or incoherent.

Maria Billingsley · Sunday at 7:28 AM

samaus123456789 said:
In Ephesians 1, Paul repeatedly uses corporate language, not individualized language. The key phrases—“us,” “we,” “those who first hoped in Christ,” and “you also”—are doing real historical work. Paul is distinguishing groups, not abstract souls.
The phrase “he chose us in him before the foundation of the world” refers to a people, not a list of isolated persons. In Scripture, election is always corporate first—Israel, priests, kings, servants—and only secondarily personal. Paul is placing the first believers inside an already-existing biblical pattern of remnant election.
This fits perfectly with Jesus’ own mission language. Jesus explicitly defines his mission as being to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, not to humanity at large in the abstract. That language is not metaphorical fluff; it is covenantal language rooted in the prophets. The “lost sheep” are Israel in exile spiritually, not pagans.
Paul’s “we who first hoped in Christ” refers to Israelite believers who recognized Jesus as Messiah before the Gentiles were brought in. That group did not arise by accident. They were the faithful remnant foreseen in the prophets, preserved through judgment, and gathered at the turning of the ages. Their coming to faith was “predestined” in the sense that God had already decided to save a remnant of Israel through the Messiah.
Predestination here is about role and timing, not about eternal fate. God predetermined that:
• the Messiah would come from Israel
• a remnant would recognize him
• that remnant would become the foundation of the new covenant people
That is exactly what Paul means when he says they were “predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.” The “purpose” is not arbitrary selection but covenant fulfillment.
Then Paul shifts language and says, “in him you also,” clearly addressing Gentile believers who were not part of that original remnant but were later incorporated. They were not “predestined” in the same historical sense; they were sealed after believing. This distinction disappears only when later theology flattens the passage.
This reading also explains why Paul frames predestination as something that results in praise of God’s glory, not anxiety about who is in or out. The miracle is that God did not abandon Israel, preserved a remnant, fulfilled the promises, and then extended mercy outward.
So yes—Ephesians 1 is about:
• the lost-sheep remnant of Israel
• foreseen and preserved by God
• becoming the first Christians
• serving as the foundation for Gentile inclusion
It is historical predestination, not metaphysical determinism.
In one sentence: Ephesians 1 teaches that God predetermined a faithful remnant of Israel to recognize the Messiah and become the first Christians, through whom the blessings would then flow to the nations.

After the Assyrian exile God preserved a remnant, and they were regathered from all nations on Pentecost, the kingdom of Israel was restored, 3000 believed, new covenant church the Israel of God was born in a day. That was predestined. The NT reveals the remnant was preserved based on genealogy- the 144 000 in Revelation 7. Rev 1-12 happened 70 AD Rev 13-22 is future. All remnant Israel was saved via belief in Jesus by 70 AD. No one since 70 AD is predestined for salvation from the foundation of the world like those people were.

Predestination, as you have defined, is Calvinist theology, which emphasizes God's absolute, unconditional choice of specific individuals for salvation before they were born, regardless of any foreseen faith or action on their part.
However, there are other significant interpretations of predestination (proorizo in Greek, meaning "to mark out beforehand" or "to predetermine") which does not aline with Calvinism.
Concerning Ephesians 1, predestination refers primarily to the predetermined outcome or destiny for those who are in Christ, rather than the unconditional choice of specific individuals.

* Ephesians 1:5 states that God "having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ."
* Romans 8:29 says, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son."

The emphasis is on the destination, adoption, conformity to Christ, and glorification—which is fixed and certain for all who believe. God predetermined the plan of salvation and the glorious status of the redeemed, and anyone , including the remnant of Israel, who enters that plan through faith, is predestined to share in that glorious end.
In this light, the predestination of the "faithful remnant of Israel" in Ephesians 1 would mean that God had a predetermined purpose for that group as a corporate body (the Church's foundation) and He foreknew the individuals within that group who would respond to the Messiah and fulfill His plan.
Blessings

samaus123456789 · Sunday at 9:40 AM

Maria Billingsley said:
Predestination, as you have defined, is Calvinist theology, which emphasizes God's absolute, unconditional choice of specific individuals for salvation before they were born, regardless of any foreseen faith or action on their part.
However, there are other significant interpretations of predestination (proorizo in Greek, meaning "to mark out beforehand" or "to predetermine") which does not aline with Calvinism.
Concerning Ephesians 1, predestination refers primarily to the predetermined outcome or destiny for those who are in Christ, rather than the unconditional choice of specific individuals.

* Ephesians 1:5 states that God "having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ."
* Romans 8:29 says, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son."

The emphasis is on the destination, adoption, conformity to Christ, and glorification—which is fixed and certain for all who believe. God predetermined the plan of salvation and the glorious status of the redeemed, and anyone , including the remnant of Israel, who enters that plan through faith, is predestined to share in that glorious end.
In this light, the predestination of the "faithful remnant of Israel" in Ephesians 1 would mean that God had a predetermined purpose for that group as a corporate body (the Church's foundation) and He foreknew the individuals within that group who would respond to the Messiah and fulfill His plan.
Blessings

it was only those first Christians no one today

11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

Jesus hand picked the 12 apostles.

Romans 8

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies

they have the first fruits of the spirit. It can mean best of the crop or first. In this case it means first. They were there on the day of Pentecost- no one ever since those first Christians were.

it was only those first Christians no one today. everyone else first century could believe if they want but that predestined elect remnant of the lost sheep of the house of Israel was special.

the prophecies said they were preserved by grace which is also mentioned in romans otherwise they would of been like sodom and gomorrah aka God would of killed every single one of them. so it was not just foreknowledge alone. kind of like forced conversion. God did not leave the arrival of the messiah up to chance.

Biblical predestination has nothing to do with calvinism. biblical predestination ended 2000 years ago once all israel was saved by 70ad.

john 17 20 Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

Jesus prays for those predestined Christians then for all other Christians that hear about him via their preaching all over Rome and writing the bible. You, and I are in that second category not the first.

RandyPNW · Sunday at 11:45 AM

samaus123456789 said:
In Ephesians 1, Paul repeatedly uses corporate language, not individualized language. The key phrases—“us,” “we,” “those who first hoped in Christ,” and “you also”—are doing real historical work. Paul is distinguishing groups, not abstract souls.
The phrase “he chose us in him before the foundation of the world” refers to a people, not a list of isolated persons. In Scripture, election is always corporate first—Israel, priests, kings, servants—and only secondarily personal. Paul is placing the first believers inside an already-existing biblical pattern of remnant election.
This fits perfectly with Jesus’ own mission language. Jesus explicitly defines his mission as being to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, not to humanity at large in the abstract. That language is not metaphorical fluff; it is covenantal language rooted in the prophets. The “lost sheep” are Israel in exile spiritually, not pagans.

I embrace Predestination, but perhaps see it a little differently and word it a little differently. God addresses the whole group because people originally represented what God planned. He planned only for believers and for those who love and follow Him. The field was intended to be planted with good seed that grow up and prosper.

But an enemy *later* came and planted bad seed in among the good seed. And so, the people God originally planned for became separated off of the whole human race, which had become mixed between the good seed and the bad seed.

When the Church is addressed as a whole, this same mixture can be seen because not all who profess Christ follow through with him. They are treated as "Christians" even though some will fall away--they were never "predestined." They were the product of enemy infiltration.

The "overcomers" are Christians who follow through and prove they were God's original planning. They are what you call "the remnant," although that suggests God will only get a small slice of what He planned.

In reality, God will get the "whole pie," including backsliders who repent and those who in ignorance rejected Him but who really would've wanted Him had they known better. The "remnant" implies that relative few are faithful--not indicating that only they will be Saved, as I see it.

Faith will Save many more than the relative few who are faithful. So God will get the "whole pie." But he will reject all those who are the planting of the enemy, who may have limited faith but twist it to their own ends.

Yes, even the demons believe...and tremble! Limited faith does not Save. True faith does Save.

samaus123456789 · Sunday at 5:28 PM

RandyPNW said:
I embrace Predestination, but perhaps see it a little differently and word it a little differently. God addresses the whole group because people originally represented what God planned. He planned only for believers and for those who love and follow Him. The field was intended to be planted with good seed that grow up and prosper.

But an enemy *later* came and planted bad seed in among the good seed. And so, the people God originally planned for became separated off of the whole human race, which had become mixed between the good seed and the bad seed.

When the Church is addressed as a whole, this same mixture can be seen because not all who profess Christ follow through with him. They are treated as "Christians" even though some will fall away--they were never "predestined." They were the product of enemy infiltration.

The "overcomers" are Christians who follow through and prove they were God's original planning. They are what you call "the remnant," although that suggests God will only get a small slice of what He planned.

In reality, God will get the "whole pie," including backsliders who repent and those who in ignorance rejected Him but who really would've wanted Him had they known better. The "remnant" implies that relative few are faithful--not indicating that only they will be Saved, as I see it.

Faith will Save many more than the relative few who are faithful. So God will get the "whole pie." But he will reject all those who are the planting of the enemy, who may have limited faith but twist it to their own ends.

Yes, even the demons believe...and tremble! Limited faith does not Save. True faith does Save.

Ask chat GPT to show all the OT prophecies about rejoining the northern and southern kingdom, regathering the exiled tribes or restoring the kingdom to Israel. Also all verses about a remnant -not all of them apply but after the Assyrian exile is when 99% of them apply. That was the remnant in the first century of OT Israelites. God said to the southern kingdom you are twice as evil as the northern kingdom, more evil than all the surrounding countries but I won't kill you all because I made a promise to David for an everlasting dynasty aka Jesus. After Jesus God was finished with OT Israel (70 AD) but he decided to preserve a remnant based on grace simply because he loved the Israelites, and that was the 144 000 in Rev 7 that got grace to believe in Jesus first century otherwise they would not of believed, and God would of had to killed them. Rev 1-12 happened 70 ad rev 13-22 is future. No one today is predestined like they were.

The wheat and the tares wheat = Christians Gods chosen people aka jews / israel romans 2 28 29 galatians 6 16, tares = the people that say they are jews/israel but lying they are the synagogue of satan.

RandyPNW · Monday at 3:00 AM

samaus123456789 said:
Ask chat GPT to show all the OT prophecies about rejoining the northern and southern kingdom, regathering the exiled tribes or restoring the kingdom to Israel. Also all verses about a remnant -not all of them apply but after the Assyrian exile is when 99% of them apply. That was the remnant in the first century of OT Israelites. God said to the southern kingdom you are twice as evil as the northern kingdom, more evil than all the surrounding countries but I won't kill you all because I made a promise to David for an everlasting dynasty aka Jesus. After Jesus God was finished with OT Israel (70 AD) but he decided to preserve a remnant based on grace simply because he loved the Israelites, and that was the 144 000 in Rev 7 that got grace to believe in Jesus first century otherwise they would not of believed, and God would of had to killed them. Rev 1-12 happened 70 ad rev 13-22 is future. No one today is predestined like they were.

The wheat and the tares wheat = Christians Gods chosen people aka jews / israel romans 2 28 29 galatians 6 16, tares = the people that say they are jews/israel but lying they are the synagogue of satan.

I'll say this about AI. It is likely consisting of an amalgamation of views, some of them based on presuppositions that aren't justified. A conglomeration of colors renders a muddy product. AI may produce a muddy product which may not be true to Scriptures and only true to a conglomeration of opinions, sometimes considered authoritative without warrant.

All of your dogmatic claims are not justified, but are based on various views I've heard throughout the decades. The northern tribes of Israel are lost, because they traded in their God for idols, and gave in to mergers with pagan foreigners.

Paul said there are a remnant of Christians of Jewish heritage, previewing a final national restoration at Christ's return. The 144,000 consisting of 12 tribes is an expression of fulfillment of ancient promises when there still were 12 tribes. Those divisions have not existed since the time of the Davidic kings. It indicates that the Christian remnant of Israel is the fulfillment of God's promises to those ancient 12 tribes. That's all.

samaus123456789 · Monday at 5:45 AM

RandyPNW said:
I'll say this about AI. It is likely consisting of an amalgamation of views, some of them based on presuppositions that aren't justified. A conglomeration of colors renders a muddy product. AI may produce a muddy product which may not be true to Scriptures and only true to a conglomeration of opinions, sometimes considered authoritative without warrant.

All of your dogmatic claims are not justified, but are based on various views I've heard throughout the decades. The northern tribes of Israel are lost, because they traded in their God for idols, and gave in to mergers with pagan foreigners.

Paul said there are a remnant of Christians of Jewish heritage, previewing a final national restoration at Christ's return. The 144,000 consisting of 12 tribes is an expression of fulfillment of ancient promises when there still were 12 tribes. Those divisions have not existed since the time of the Davidic kings. It indicates that the Christian remnant of Israel is the fulfillment of God's promises to those ancient 12 tribes. That's all.

It will quote every verse on the topic with no interpretation unless you ask it to give one eg how it happened on Pentecost. If you already know the verses then no need.
Everything I said is correct. The northern kingdom returned on Pentecost. James 1 "to the 12 tribes abroad". There are no lost tribes. Show me a single source that says the kingdom of Israel was restored on Pentecost? I have never read that in a textbook or study even though it is correct.
Yeh a remnant alive "at this time" in Romans which was 2000 years ago. Jewish is not really a biblical word either so I don't use it. There was a remnant of OT Jews/Israelites. They were genealogically descended from the 12 tribes as Rev 7 explains which is hidden in the OT. All Israel was saved 2000 years ago. Rev 1-12 happened 70 ad Rev 13-22 is future.

RandyPNW · Monday at 11:15 AM

samaus123456789 said:
It will quote every verse on the topic with no interpretation unless you ask it to give one eg how it happened on Pentecost. If you already know the verses then no need.

You can believe what you want about AI. You are only commenting on the answers you get--not on any formula it uses to come up with its answers. You are not talking to a person--you're talking to a computer program.

samaus123456789 said:
Everything I said is correct.

If you ask a robber if he robbed the bank, he will, of course, say no. So determining, on your own, that you are correct is worthless.

samaus123456789 said:
The northern kingdom returned on Pentecost. James 1 "to the 12 tribes abroad".

James was referring to Jewish People in exile--not to tribal peoples within their boundaries, and not to any "return." So no, you are not correct.

samaus123456789 said:
There are no lost tribes.

The 12 tribes that had existed in the Northern Kingdom were indeed exiled, and never returned. All of the tribes migrated to or participated in the Southern Kingdom of Judah which eventually referred to the "Jews." These "Jews" did return to the land of Israel, but never became 12 Tribes--something that ended with the rise of the Davidic monarchy.

It was these Jews surviving the captivity of the Southern Kingdom that James referred to. They had not merged in with foreign countries, as the Northern Tribes did.

As I said, the Southern Kingdom had come to absorb remnants of all 12 Tribes before the Babylonian Captivity. Many faithful Israelis from all 12 Tribes refused to worship pagan gods in Northern Israel, and migrated to Judah to properly worship God in Jerusalem.

Retaining your ethnic identity is not the same thing as a political "return." God never intended 12 Tribes to exist as such forever. God's plan was that they develop into a single theocratic nation.

samaus123456789 said:
Show me a single source that says the kingdom of Israel was restored on Pentecost? I have never read that in a textbook or study even though it is correct.

Where did I say the Kingdom of Israel was restored on Pentecost? You must be reading somebody else in my posts?

samaus123456789 said:
Yeh a remnant alive "at this time" in Romans which was 2000 years ago.

No, Paul intended to say that the Christian remnant among the Jewish People would survive until the 2nd Coming of Christ, who would deliver "all Israel"--not meaning that every individual Jew would be Saved, but that the entire political entity of Israel would be restored and embrace the true Messiah, Jesus.

samaus123456789 said:
Jewish is not really a biblical word either so I don't use it.

The Bible was not written in English so you should refer to whether a *concept* is biblically described or not. "Jewish" is clearly described in the Bible.

samaus123456789 said:
There was a remnant of OT Jews/Israelites.

It depends on the context. There is a Christian remanant of Israel at present. And there was a Hebrew remnant that was spared destruction under OT judgments against Israel.

samaus123456789 said:
They were genealogically descended from the 12 tribes as Rev 7 explains which is hidden in the OT.

Who was "hidden" in the OT? Christianity did not yet exist in the OT. But the remnant of Hebrews that God spared from destruction and returned to Israel after the Babylonian Captivity is no "secret."

samaus123456789 said:
All Israel was saved 2000 years ago. Rev 1-12 happened 70 ad Rev 13-22 is future.

Salvation can be evangelical, as in the Salvation of individuals. Or, Salvation can be political such as when God saved Israel from her enemies, as promised under the Law of Moses. Israel was not "Saved" in 70 AD in any respect!

I don't agree with your categorization of Revelation. You're entitled to believe what you want. But I find no warrant, personally, for believing that.

samaus123456789 · Monday at 6:24 PM

yes the kingdom of israel was restored on pentecost. https://www.christianforums.com/threads/kingdom-of-israel-restored-on-pentecost.8338496/. the 12 tribes came back from all nations like the prophecies said they would. there is no more remnant of the 12 tribes. christians are israel/jews not the synagogue of satan

RandyPNW · Monday at 9:12 PM

samaus123456789 said:
yes the kingdom of israel was restored on pentecost. https://www.christianforums.com/threads/kingdom-of-israel-restored-on-pentecost.8338496/. the 12 tribes came back from all nations like the prophecies said they would. there is no more remnant of the 12 tribes. christians are israel/jews not the synagogue of satan

Paul said there is (present tense) a Christian remnant of Israel, saying this *after* the Day of Pentecost. Rom 11. No, the Kingdom of Israel was *not* restored on Pentecost. Nowhere is this said. In fact, Paul predicts a future restoration of "all Israel", predicting this *after* the Day of Pentecost. Rom 11.

RandyPNW · Monday at 11:09 PM

samaus123456789 said:
yes the kingdom of israel was restored on pentecost. https://www.christianforums.com/threads/kingdom-of-israel-restored-on-pentecost.8338496/. the 12 tribes came back from all nations like the prophecies said they would. there is no more remnant of the 12 tribes. christians are israel/jews not the synagogue of satan

No, the Kingdom of Israel was *not* restored on Pentecost. Peter clearly looks forward, past Pentecost, to the "refreshment" of Israel, which is the restoration of the Kingdom of Israel under Messiah.

Acts 3.19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Israel was called, under the Law of Moses, to gather 3 times per year in Jerusalem, to worship at the Temple during the various Feasts of the Law. Though the covenant of Law had been broken at the Cross of Christ many Jews during Pentecost still viewed themselves as under the Law and continued to gather at Jerusalem, including Jews who lived outside of Israel. This was a regular religious gathering, but not a "restoration."

samaus123456789 · Tuesday at 5:09 AM

RandyPNW said:
No, the Kingdom of Israel was *not* restored on Pentecost. Peter clearly looks forward, past Pentecost, to the "refreshment" of Israel, which is the restoration of the Kingdom of Israel under Messiah.

Acts 3.19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Israel was called, under the Law of Moses, to gather 3 times per year in Jerusalem, to worship at the Temple during the various Feasts of the Law. Though the covenant of Law had been broken at the Cross of Christ many Jews during Pentecost still viewed themselves as under the Law and continued to gather at Jerusalem, including Jews who lived outside of Israel. This was a regular religious gathering, but not a "restoration."

Acts cites Amos about the tents of David being rebuilt Micah said someone who's origins were ancient was going to be born in Bethlehem, and reunite all the tribes. When Jesus was asked when will you return the kingdom to Israel he said Pentecost. The kingdom of Israel was restored on Pentecost, and the remnant regathered from all nations. You are a false teacher doing the will of the devil. 2 Timothy 25 26 Repent.

RandyPNW · Tuesday at 10:10 PM

samaus123456789 said:
Acts cites Amos about the tents of David being rebuilt Micah said someone who's origins were ancient was going to be born in Bethlehem, and reunite all the tribes. When Jesus was asked when will you return the kingdom to Israel he said Pentecost. The kingdom of Israel was restored on Pentecost, and the remnant regathered from all nations. You are a false teacher doing the will of the devil. 2 Timothy 25 26 Repent.

Well, that's a terrible, ugly spirit. Saying I'm of the devil shouldn't be part of Christian discussion and debate on a Christian forum. I think you should leave. And no, Jesus did *not* say that Penteost would be when the Kingdom of Israel is restored. Obviously, that never took place. Goodby.

samaus123456789 · Wednesday at 7:47 AM

RandyPNW said:
Well, that's a terrible, ugly spirit. Saying I'm of the devil shouldn't be part of Christian discussion and debate on a Christian forum. I think you should leave. And no, Jesus did *not* say that Penteost would be when the Kingdom of Israel is restored. Obviously, that never took place. Goodby.

Acts 1
1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.”

6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Jesus said the kingdom of Israel would be restored on Pentecost.

That is a terrible ugly spirit of false teaching you have. I think you should leave. You are a false teacher doing the will of the devil 2 Timothy 25 26. Repent.

ViaCrucis · Wednesday at 8:33 AM

samaus123456789 said:
First, the remnant principle you’re using is entirely biblical.

Did you just respond to your own OP and congratulate yourself?

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Only the remnant lost sheep of Israel was predestined from the foundation of the world for salvation

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