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Why do we do things not written in the Bible?

JSRG

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Paganism pre-dated Christianity. The cross was a pagan symbol. It does not follow that Jesus died on a cross to convert everyone to paganism.
It is not clear what you mean by "a pagan symbol." There are several possible interpretations.

If you mean the cross was a pagan symbol insofar as pagans performed crucifixions, that would be true, but it seems a stretch to call that a "symbol."

If you mean that a vertical and horizontal line intersecting was used by pagan societies, the answer is certainly. It's one of the simplest symbols to make. Various languages have a symbol in their alphabet that is a vertical and horizontal line intersecting, like the English T. In Chinese and Japanese, 十 is a symbol that represents the number 10.

If you mean, however, that it was a pagan religious symbol, that's where I disagree. I have seen various people try to find some kind of pagan origin to the Christian cross, and every time I've looked into it they've come up short. They'll point to things that look sort of like crosses, or they'll point to a simple usage of a + symbol with no apparent religious connotation, but neither of which provides evidence that the cross symbol came from paganism. Of course, sometimes they'll just make up stuff, which of course provides no evidence either.

I see little reason to ascribe the cross symbol of Christianity to anything pagan, unless that "pagan" thing is crucifixion itself.
 

Valletta

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It is not clear what you mean by "a pagan symbol." There are several possible interpretations.

If you mean the cross was a pagan symbol insofar as pagans performed crucifixions, that would be true, but it seems a stretch to call that a "symbol."

If you mean that a vertical and horizontal line intersecting was used by pagan societies, the answer is certainly. It's one of the simplest symbols to make. Various languages have a symbol in their alphabet that is a vertical and horizontal line intersecting, like the English T. In Chinese and Japanese, 十 is a symbol that represents the number 10.

If you mean, however, that it was a pagan religious symbol, that's where I disagree. I have seen various people try to find some kind of pagan origin to the Christian cross, and every time I've looked into it they've come up short. They'll point to things that look sort of like crosses, or they'll point to a simple usage of a + symbol with no apparent religious connotation, but neither of which provides evidence that the cross symbol came from paganism. Of course, sometimes they'll just make up stuff, which of course provides no evidence either.

I see little reason to ascribe the cross symbol of Christianity to anything pagan, unless that "pagan" thing is crucifixion itself.
The intent was only to demonstrate a faulty line of reasoning. Because something might have been used in ancient times in no way shows that someone centuries later is using it for the same purpose.
 

The Liturgist

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@Valletta and @JSRG , the Swastika was, and is, a Pagan symbol of particular importance to Buddhism, Hinduism and Jainism, three of the four Indian religions that have vaguely similar beliefs on reincarnation ; I haven’t seen a Sikh use of the Swastika but I would not be shocked to find a Sikh Gurdwara thus adorned. In Japan, the Swastika is a common symbol for Buddhist temples.
 
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Bro.T

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So you appear to admit that Christmas trees are a development far too late for any ancient pagan customs to have any influence on them. I'm glad you were apparently willing to admit that.

However, you then pivot to something new, which has its own new problems:


You make these assertions, but cite no evidence. Our information about the druids is rather scanty, and if you have evidence for these, it might be good to notify historians so they do. Or, at least, share it with us, for these claims seem very questionable. So, point us to the primary sources that affirm the things you describe. Because if there aren't primary sources, then that would mean this is just a bunch of nonsense from other people that you're uncritically repeating.

Let's take one example. You claim:

"The custom of lighting a Yule log is an ancient Druid practice. A log, usually of the god-related oak tree, is carved into a small section which is brought into a dwelling. Holes are drilled into the log and candies inserted. The entire log is then decoratively covered with holly and evergreens to represent the intertwining of god and goddess, or male and female elements. Hopes for fertile crops, herds, and families are invested in the Yule log image."

No primary source--or any source at all--is provided by you. I strongly suspect there is no such source, and this is totally made up. I say this for two reasons.

First, you claim this was a Druid practice. But the Druids seem to have largely faded away by the 2nd century AD under Roman occupation. Yule was a term for winter that came to Britain with the Anglo-Saxons, who arrived in the 5th century. How precisely would the Druids have been engaging in anything related to Yule when it hadn't even been introduced yet?

Second, even if we were to ignore that and ask about the Yule Log solely, we run into a larger problem. Despite the common claim, there is as far as I can tell a paucity of evidence there was ever any pagan practice of a "Yule Log". Most likely there were pagans who used logs as firewood, but that doesn't mean they attached any religious importance to them, much less that "the entire log is then decoratively covered with holly and evergreens to represent the intertwining of god and goddess, or male and female elements". As far as I can tell, the term "Yule Log" first appeared in the 17th century in a reference to Christmas customs (certainly, I have seen no one point to an earlier usage). While there are earlier instances of the log's usage described without that specific name, all of the ones I can find are in reference to Christmas, not any pagan practice. The idea that this had a connection to an earlier pagan Yule celebration appears to have been the invention of later writers who saw "Yule Log" and assumed it had a pagan origin based on the name, despite the apparent lack of any actual attestation to such a thing, and the apparent inability of anyone to point to evidence of it. Even the (speculative) ideas I've seen pointed to for possible evidence of pagans practicing such a thing fall very well short of any reference that "the entire log is then decoratively covered with holly and evergreens to represent the intertwining of god and goddess, or male and female elements" as you claimed.

If you indeed do have primary sources attesting to these claims of yours (rather than this just being you copying a bunch of incorrect information from others), it would be quite appreciated if you would provide it.
Most of this information can be google what I post, it's all facts. None of these things have anything to do with Christ anyway.
 
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Bro.T

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I'll adjust this to the following: Many of our present winter solstice cultural traditions have historical roots in cultural traditions from earlier people who experienced the winter solstice in the Northern Hemisphere.

My Celtic and Germanic and Norse ancestors believed that it got very cold and dark during the winter, and many of the plants died or fell dormant. Some of them found that they felt less cold and sad if they lit fires and candles and decorated with whatever brightly-colored plants they could find around them. It turns out that I also feel less cold and sad if I light fires and candles (and electric lights) and decorate with brightly-colored plants. No modern European believes that the sun is going to return any faster if you light a fire. But a fire is still bright and warm. Not everything the ancient Europeans believed about the world was false.

Maybe you live in the tropics, or the Southern Hemisphere, or maybe you love winter because you like to ski. Good for you. Think of me while you're sipping your piña colada on your tropical beach. But where I live, it's cold and dark in December, and it makes me sad, and I get less sad when the house and the neighborhood are full of colored lights.



Most Christians believe that Jesus was raised from the dead on the "first day of the week" (Sunday). We meet weekly on Sunday to remember Jesus' resurrection.

If you also want to observe the Sabbath as a day of rest on Saturday, feel free. It's healthy to rest from work periodically.
I appreciate your warm response, but I believe that is important to understand and learn the truth, so that when you are worshipping the Lord, you have a clear understanding on what you are doing. And I believe that most Christians do think that Jesus was raised from the dead on the first day of the week, but the Bible teaches otherwise. Let's take a look in (John 20:1) The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

So it was yet dark, meaning still dark, Jesus was already gone.

(2) Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

Let's take another look (Luke 24:1) Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. (2) And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. (3) And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. (4) And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

(5) And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?

(6) He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
 
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Hentenza

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I appreciate your warm response, but I believe that is important to understand and learn the truth, so that when you are worshipping the Lord, you have a clear understanding on what you are doing. And I believe that most Christians do think that Jesus was raised from the dead on the first day of the week, but the Bible teaches otherwise. Let's take a look in (John 20:1) The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

So it was yet dark, meaning still dark, Jesus was already gone.

(2) Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

Let's take another look (Luke 24:1) Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. (2) And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. (3) And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. (4) And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

(5) And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?

(6) He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
I read your post a number of times to find your aha moment but it escapes me. During Jesus times the day ran from 6pm to 6pm so from the time that it got dark on Saturday night until sunrise on Sunday it would, in fact, be dark. People still slept at night because it was cooler and probably went to bed relatively early so waking up at the early hours when is still dark is highly probable. John 20 state that when “it was still dark” which would match anytime before sunrise. Luke 24 states that it was the first day, which started at 6pm the night before and very early in the morning which it would be if they arrive, well, very early in the morning. So Jesus had between 6pm on Saturday until sunrise on Sunday to leave the tomb which would still be the first day.

The Bible is clear that Jesus was resurrected on the first day.
 
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PloverWing

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And I believe that most Christians do think that Jesus was raised from the dead on the first day of the week, but the Bible teaches otherwise.

The resurrection accounts differ from each other in some details. In Luke and John, the resurrection is discovered on the first day of the week, but I suppose these accounts allow the possibility that the resurrection occurred on the previous day and wasn't discovered until Sunday.

Matthew's account, however, gives more details about the timing:

After the Sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. And suddenly there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord, descending from heaven, came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning and his clothing white as snow. For fear of him the guards shook and became like dead men. But the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus who was crucified. He is not here, for he has been raised, as he said."

Are you trying to argue that the resurrection occurred before the earthquake and the angelic appearance, during the previous day when no one was looking? What led you to that belief?
 

Valletta

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Prove to me the cross was a pagan symbol!
You can do a simple AI search, or perhaps you would accept that Romans used a cross to crucify people before Jesus, but you are missing the point. Because Romans used a cross to crucify people before Jesus does not mean that anyone who displays a cross is embracing paganism.
 
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JSRG

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Most of this information can be google what I post, it's all facts. None of these things have anything to do with Christ anyway.
The thing is, there's a whole lot of misinformation someone can find on Google. The fact that one can find other people, even a lot of other people, making erroneous claims that you copied from doesn't mean anything other than that it being a common erroneous claim. You need to look to see if they offer evidence--and for those making claims of the variety you were offering, they inevitably don't offer evidence (because, again, there appears to not actually be evidence). And if we want to play the Google game, the funny thing is that I can also, via Google, find people saying that what you were claiming is commonly repeated incorrect information and is made up. (in truth, one can find just about anything claimed by someone via a Google search, showing again how weak of an appeal it is)

In my experience, statements like "this information can be googled" normally simply means "I don't actually have evidence, but I don't want to admit it."
 

Valletta

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Inadvisable.
I understand, I said that because there are a lot of examples. I know AI just goes out and does a summary of what is out there. Like Wikipedia, it's good when there is little or no debate.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I understand, I said that because there are a lot of examples. I know AI just goes out and does a summary of what is out there. Like Wikipedia, it's good when there is little or no debate.
Inadvisable.
Not just a summary; the Liturgist and myself ran into one such case where the bias of the individual and their previous posting history and likely search history gave very biased results.

Likewise, a few weeks back, an individual did a search on Jesus Christ flipping over tables in the temple. The image that resulted was a very "buff" Lord and Savior doing summersaults over tables in the temple. LOL

AI is making the world stupider. In industry, AI improves efficiency and quality, but when issues occur, they are often more convoluted to fix, and even programmers and automation experts find troubleshooting to be very challenging.

The internet always was full of garbage, but one could usually look to the source, AI searches with impunity, and reports information with no accountability.
 
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Hentenza

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Not just a summary; the Liturgist and myself ran into one such case where the bias of the individual and their previous posting history and likely search history gave very biased results.

Likewise, a few weeks back, an individual did a search on Jesus Christ flipping over tables in the temple. The image that resulted was a very "buff" Lord and Savior doing summersaults over tables in the temple. LOL

AI is making the world stupider. In industry, AI improves efficiency and quality, but when issues occur, they are often more convoluted to fix, and even programmers and automation experts find troubleshooting to be very challenging.

The internet always was full of garbage, but one could usually look to the source, AI searches with impunity, and reports information with no accountability.
Absolutely. In my experience with using AI I have found that it draws quite a bit of information from social media. The least that I want clouding the results is juvenile opinions and such. I still use it but now I limit the searches to .edu and .org. The results are better but still quite Wikipedia like.
 
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The Liturgist

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Not just a summary; the Liturgist and myself ran into one such case where the bias of the individual and their previous posting history and likely search history gave very biased results.

Likewise, a few weeks back, an individual did a search on Jesus Christ flipping over tables in the temple. The image that resulted was a very "buff" Lord and Savior doing summersaults over tables in the temple. LOL

AI is making the world stupider. In industry, AI improves efficiency and quality, but when issues occur, they are often more convoluted to fix, and even programmers and automation experts find troubleshooting to be very challenging.

The internet always was full of garbage, but one could usually look to the source, AI searches with impunity, and reports information with no accountability.

Indeed, its very hard to troubleshoot AI faults, but even then, the real issue here is that our current generation of AIs is only really good at pattern recognition, which makes sense, since the code developed from neural networks developed by Google and others for automatic image classification. But even with a perfect AI, how can we expect it to reliably answer subjective questions the answer to which is a matter of debate? At best one would give an opinion, one no more valuable, and some might argue less valuable than that of any human.

I love AI, for what its good at; I believe if used correctly, it can make us smarter. My custom GPTs are programmed (via the method I told you about earlier) to intellectually challenge me and to resist model pressure to offer “helpful suggestions.” As a result, they are idiosyncratic, strange and challenging.

Alas most people write their AIs the opposite way. And if chatGPT withdraws 4o, there’s a good chance they’ll break unless GPT 5 gets much better than GPT 5.2 right now.
 
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The Liturgist

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Absolutely. In my experience with using AI I have found that it draws quite a bit of information from social media. The least that I want clouding the results is juvenile opinions and such. I still use it but now I limit the searches to .edu and .org. The results are better but still quite Wikipedia like.

Good, you’ve added a resource constraint. The only problem is that to fully take advantage of the rich training data of the model, you would need to disable that for certain types of queries, like hunting for ancient liturgical texts.
 
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Hentenza

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Good, you’ve added a resource constraint. The only problem is that to fully take advantage of the rich training data of the model, you would need to disable that for certain types of queries, like hunting for ancient liturgical texts.
Yes which takes us back to the hope that resources that contains those will be included in a general search. I would hope that with time one can “train” AI to discern from which sites to gather data without having to “fool” the search.
 
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JulieB67

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The fact is Jesus was not even born in the winter season.
Most likely September I would think. And if that's the case his Spirit would have certainly been residing in Mary's womb in December. Which is certainly something to celebrate imo.

But I do agree with how commercialized Christmas has become -taking the focus off of Christ regardless. Not for all but many.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Most likely September I would think. And if that's the case his Spirit would have certainly been residing in Mary's womb in December. Which is certainly something to celebrate imo.

But I do agree with how commercialized Christmas has become -taking the focus off of Christ regardless. Not for all but many.
Since no one can say exactly what day, and since the Bible makes a big deal about the incarnation (central to all Christianity), we better celebrate it. The 25th is as good as any other day, and if we did move it, then we would have to move the Annunciation celebration as well. It is like Easter, not so important when (although some think so) but very important that we do, regardless of the date as we are discussing elsewhere.
 
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Bro.T

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Most likely September I would think. And if that's the case his Spirit would have certainly been residing in Mary's womb in December. Which is certainly something to celebrate imo.

But I do agree with how commercialized Christmas has become -taking the focus off of Christ regardless. Not for all but many.
To celebrate Jesus' birth date on December 25th is not scripturally sound. If Jesus is the reason for the season, then why didn't He let us know when to celebrate his birth? Jesus commanded us in Luke 22:19, "And he took bread, and gave thanks, and break it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me." Remember Jesus prayer that this cup past from 2 or 3 times, because his death is much much more important.
 
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