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If the brain is necessary to have a vision

Stopped_lurking

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Its established because its been acknowledged as existing. We just don't know what it is or how to measure it. But to say it has not been established is like saying consciousness or Mind or the self or agency has not been established. Its as real as we live it and experience it as real.

Yes only if you take that worldview belief. But thats an assumption based on a metaphysical belief and not science itself. Can you get outside your mind to check if all there is is the physical brain and no mind beyond that brain.

By the same token this does not contradict that the monism you believe that is all physical fundementally. May be the exact opposite where Mind is fundemental and creates what we think is the physical. It works both ways. I am open to both ways. Are you.

I guess because the OP opens the door for such ideas. How can anyone have vision without the physical brain. The OP asks whether the physical brain is necessary to have vision. I guess that comes under science.

It hasn't been acknowledged by monists.

Sure, I'm open for both dualism and monism but I see no reason to posit dualism. It offers nothing extra, compared to monism and I don't have to assume anything extra with monism.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Two destinct aspects of reality. In fact there is a growing trend towards consciousness and Mind beyond the physical brain as the ultimate fundemental reality. That is is mind that creates the so called physical world.

You've said this on a lot of threads. How *would* you demonstrate this popularity claim? (I'm not looking for anecdotes or articles. I want a *METHOD*. If the method is sound, then we can talk about data. If not, then the method is useless.)
 
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stevevw

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And the question the OP asks fails because no child without a brain lives into adulthood and his example is heavily cherry picked.
OK well my point was not about proving an specific example for vision beyond the brain. But rather that the OP open the door for such ideas. That was my point in making the arguement that generally its an open question as to ideas like vision beyond the brain because consciousness itself is an open question to being something beyond the physical brain.

Not that any specific case can be verified. But that epistemically its an open question that needs investigation and should not be shut down because some may believe there is no such possibility.
 
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stevevw

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You've said this on a lot of threads. How *would* you demonstrate this popularity claim? (I'm not looking for anecdotes or articles. I want a *METHOD*. If the method is sound, then we can talk about data. If not, then the method is useless.)
Before we go into that. I would like to know if you think this is at all possible to begin with. Whether it can be verified to your satification. Do you believe there is anything beyond the physical brain or physical reality.
 
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stevevw

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It hasn't been acknowledged by monists.
I thought Monism could be any single ontology for reality.
Sure, I'm open for both dualism and monism but I see no reason to posit dualism. It offers nothing extra, compared to monism and I don't have to assume anything extra with monism.
Are you kidding. It offers much more than monism. The simple fact that now we have two options, two dimensions to measure reality gives much more options.

Especially when we reach the end of what a monist worldview can tell us. If the phenomena steps beyond the physical. Then what is left to account for this aspect of reality. We are left with a large chunk of reality unexplained.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Before we go into that. I would like to know if you think this is at all possible to begin with. Whether it can be verified to your satification. Do you believe there is anything beyond the physical brain or physical reality.
Nope. We're not going to discuss you base claim, only the one about "popularity". The popularity claim is part of your argument. So let's put "popularity" to the test. How do you know your thing is becoming more "popular"? Is there a survey? What?
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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OK well my point was not about proving an specific example for vision beyond the brain. But rather that the OP open the door for such ideas. That was my point in making the arguement that generally its an open question as to ideas like vision beyond the brain because consciousness itself is an open question to being something beyond the physical brain.

Not that any specific case can be verified. But that epistemically its an open question that needs investigation and should not be shut down because some may believe there is no such possibility.

But he really didn't since he shot himself in the foot by using a flawed example.
 
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Stopped_lurking

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I thought Monism could be any single ontology for reality.

It says that there ultimately is one single reality or organizing principle.

Are you kidding. It offers much more than monism. The simple fact that now we have two options, two dimensions to measure reality gives much more options.

It doesn't help descibe reality, as I observe it, it is therefore unnecessary to posit dualism.
 
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Ophiolite

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But he really didn't since he shot himself in the foot by using a flawed example.
@stevevw has the unfortunate habit of zeroing in on anything that seems to support his (intense) belief in "something" beyond the physical. (Brackets, quotation marks and italics used to reperesent the poorly grounded, or characterised nature of this something, or motives for believing in it.)
Contrary to his intent, his poorly supported and ill organised arguments deter any hope of a serious discussion about what he wishes to highlight as possibilities.
 
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stevevw

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You've said this on a lot of threads. How *would* you demonstrate this popularity claim? (I'm not looking for anecdotes or articles. I want a *METHOD*. If the method is sound, then we can talk about data. If not, then the method is useless.)
Well obviously this kind of evidence mainly comes from direct experience and the testimony of that. How would you test for that apart from directly asking the experiencer. Then trying to validate their experiences somehow.

You would have to gather a lot of evidence as this sort of evidence only begins to make sense when its viewed over a large data base of exteriences.

Then your extrapolating commonalities and to cognition and behaviour. Then formulating the evidence based on this. Its all about probabilities.

But also it depends on the criteria placed on the evidence. All prior assumptions need to be put aside so that a fair presentation of just the facts are acknowelged beforehand.
 
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stevevw

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It says that there ultimately is one single reality or organizing principle.
Yes so could not that apply equally to either a single physical or mental ontology. Either way. Theres no stipulation on it being one or the other. Both are possible as the single fundemental reality that everything stems from.
It doesn't help descibe reality, as I observe it, it is therefore unnecessary to posit dualism.
So if you observe a behaviour you assume that it only has a physical basis. That all behaviour originates in physical processes.

Will not this restrict the possibilities of the cause of behaviour in that this excludes a big part of the possible cause of that behaviour being the Mind itself.

That the Mind can act independent of the physical. Mind over matter so to speak. Even attributing agency to the deterministic physical processes. Thus excluding any independent self from the equation. Seems like a very narrow way to observe human behaviour. One that does not match reality.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Well obviously this kind of evidence mainly comes from direct experience and the testimony of that. How would you test for that apart from directly asking the experiencer. Then trying to validate their experiences somehow.

You would have to gather a lot of evidence as this sort of evidence only begins to make sense when its viewed over a large data base of exteriences.

Then your extrapolating commonalities and to cognition and behaviour. Then formulating the evidence based on this. Its all about probabilities.

But also it depends on the criteria placed on the evidence. All prior assumptions need to be put aside so that a fair presentation of just the facts are acknowelged beforehand.
I didn't ask for evidence of dualism. I asked for evidence that more people of relevance are accepting dualism. This would probably come in the form of survey of neuroscientists or philosphers working on the theory of mind, or if you want to drag physicists into this that more physicists are thinking consciousness is fundamental. (Though I wish you would stop dragging us into this.) Alternatively, it could be a study of the literature (relative mentions, etc.).
 
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stevevw

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But he really didn't since he shot himself in the foot by using a flawed example.
Using a flawed example does not negate the possibility. It just means a flawed example was used.
 
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Stopped_lurking

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Yes so could not that apply equally to either a single physical or mental ontology. Either way. Theres no stipulation on it being one or the other. Both are possible as the single fundemental reality that everything stems from.
Yes, but it precludes the possibility that mind and body are two distinct substances. You seem to argue that they are two distinct substances?

So if you observe a behaviour you assume that it only has a physical basis. That all behaviour originates in physical processes.

Will not this restrict the possibilities of the cause of behaviour in that this excludes a big part of the possible cause of that behaviour being the Mind itself.

That the Mind can act independent of the physical. Mind over matter so to speak. Even attributing agency to the deterministic physical processes. Thus excluding any independent self from the equation. Seems like a very narrow way to observe human behaviour. One that does not match reality.

If anyone shows that dualism or pluralism is correct, I'm ok with that. As of now, to posit that mind is something else than body doesn't fill any function. It does match reality as far as I can see.
 
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stevevw

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I didn't ask for evidence of dualism. I asked for evidence that more people of relevance are accepting dualism. This would probably come in the form of survey of neuroscientists or philosphers working on the theory of mind, or if you want to drag physicists into this that more physicists are thinking consciousness is fundamental. (Though I wish you would stop dragging us into this.) Alternatively, it could be a study of the literature (relative mentions, etc.).
Ok so you have named some of this yourself. But then you want to shut all that down at the same time. So how can we even discuss it if your dismissing it as a priori.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Using a flawed example does not negate the possibility. It just means a flawed example was used.

Then show a non-flawed example.

ETA: And I really should mention that the non-flawed example should be a person without a brain being able to perceive things.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Ok so you have named some of this yourself. But then you want to shut all that down at the same time. So how can we even discuss it if your dismissing it as a priori.

I have not quoted any studies of popularity of dualism. That is what I want from you. Nothing else.
 
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stevevw

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Yes, but it precludes the possibility that mind and body are two distinct substances. You seem to argue that they are two distinct substances?
But if monism is the idea that there is a single reality be it physical or mental.
If anyone shows that dualism or pluralism is correct, I'm ok with that. As of now, to posit that mind is something else than body doesn't fill any function. It does match reality as far as I can see.
Of course it fills a function. Just think of all the stuff that happens as a result of your mind. Or what you believe is your mind. Your free will and agency for one.

You cannot possible account for this with a physical ontology. The two are different categories let alone able to explain each other. In fact theres way more Mind ideas and realities in the world than physical reality to contend with that physical determinist reality cannot explain.

You can't explain this by saying the physical is the physical. Or describing the physical explains the mental. It doesn't work that way. There are no mind concepts in physical processes. Nor can physical things produce mind. Its impossible to do and you can't just assume this. Thats a belief.
 
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stevevw

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I have not quoted any studies of popularity of dualism. That is what I want from you. Nothing else.
You do realise that under the heading of Dualism there is an aweful lot of research and studies. If your counting anything that supports mind or consciousness beyond the physical brain or body.
 
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partinobodycular

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Using a flawed example does not negate the possibility. It just means a flawed example was used.

The problem isn't that he used a flawed example, the problem is that there are no good examples.
 
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