Just a reminder. Christians started the war on Christmas

i don't care what they say about the origin of christmas, is the celebration of Jesus birthday, i like christmas holiday a lot.
Is a time to enjoy with your family, what is wrong about that.

Reminds me of this

21 “Don’t eat this,” “Don’t taste that,” “Don’t touch that”? 22 These rules are talking about earthly things that are gone after they are used. They are only human commands and teachings. 23 These rules may seem to be wise as part of a made-up religion in which people pretend to be humble and punish their bodies. But they don’t help people stop doing the evil that the sinful self wants to do.

They do have a point though. I know the article mentions Saturnalia and Bacchanalia, but the real holiday in question is Sol Invictus which was celebrated on December 25th which is the birth of the sun god Sol Invictus thanks to emperor Aurelian in 274 AD. The first record we have of Christmas was from Constantine in 336AD which was called the "Feast of the Nativity". I know there are calculations before that but its based off of pagan equinox calculations when they believe the sun was birthed, so still pagan in root. The whole holiday is.

Reminds me of:

He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.” When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, “Tomorrow there will be a festival to the Lord (Yahweh).” - Exodus 32:4-5

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This wasn't a new god, it was calling the idol Yahweh and obviously God didn't like that as he was going to kill the whole group of Israelite's and start over through Moses. Repurposing a pagan holiday is no different.

And Colossians 2 isn't an argument because the context is different. Otherwise you'd be saying Paul is advocating to practice any pagan holiday no matter what it is. Lupercalia? Sure, no problem!

Delvianna said:

This wasn't a new god, it was calling the idol Yahweh and obviously God didn't like that as he was going to kill the whole group of Israelite's and start over through Moses. Repurposing a pagan holiday is no different.

And Colossians 2 isn't an argument because the context is different. Otherwise you'd be saying Paul is advocating to practice any pagan holiday no matter what it is. Lupercalia? Sure, no problem!

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Ehhh, doesn't quite make sense for a few reasons. 1. Nobody is calling their Christmas tree Yahweh. So it's not idol worship. 2. Supposedly you'd be perfectly fine with it if we just moved it to July. Less chance of people such as yourself confusing it with some other obscure holiday. Personally I think that's a great idea. 3. Contrary to your personal opinion, this is exactly what Paul is talking about in Romans 14. You can celebrate whatever holidays you want to, just as long as the thanks that you give are to the Lord. As the saying goes, 'Christ is the reason for the season'... not Sol Invictus.

The so-called war on Christmas is interesting. Despite the common narrative, none of the atheists I know have a problem with the holiday, or even have a problem with saying Merry Christmas. They seem to like giving and receiving gifts as much as anybody else.

The religious objections to it are stronger. And although I celebrate Christmas, that's fine with me. What's the problem if somebody doesn't want to celebrate a holiday? It doesn't necessarily mean they think other people worship trees or whatever. More likely, they see all days as equally worth thanking God for or dislike the commercialism.

partinobodycular said:

Ehhh, doesn't quite make sense for a few reasons. 1. Nobody is calling their Christmas tree Yahweh. So it's not idol worship. 2. Supposedly you'd be perfectly fine with it if we just moved it to July. Less chance of people such as yourself confusing it with some other obscure holiday. Personally I think that's a great idea. 3. Contrary to your personal opinion, this is exactly what Paul is talking about in Romans 14. You can celebrate whatever bloody holidays you want to, just as long as the thanks that you give are to the Lord. As the saying goes, 'Christ is the reason for the season'... not Sol Invictus.

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It's the premise, not a 1:1 ratio. Even if we knew when he was born theres other issues with the holiday, like having a pine tree in your house.

Your argument with Romans 14 is like saying, go ahead and celebrate a Baal holiday. The logic doesn't stick. Slapping Jesus's name on it doesn't make it okay, just like putting YWHW's name on a cow idol doesn't make it okay.

Everywhere you go in December there's music proclaiming Jesus as the Christ and glorifying the Lord. I used to live in Las Vegas and I found it quite delightful to hear Handel's Messiah being sung loudly on the strip during the fountain show. To me that cancels out whatever complaints some people come up with.

Delvianna said:

Even if we knew when he was born theres other issues with the holiday, like having a pine tree in your house.

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There's absolutely nothing wrong with putting a pine tree in your house. It simply signifies that this is a day, and this is a season, that I have chosen to set aside to remember Christ. That's it. There's no secret agenda hidden in there, unless you as an individual choose to put it there. In which case it's perfectly fine for you not to put a pine tree in your house. That's between you, your conscience, and God. But likewise, if I do choose to put a pine tree in my house, that's also between me, my conscience, and God.

God knows what's in our hearts. So if your heart will convict you for putting a pine tree in your house then for gosh sakes don't do it, but my heart won't.

As Paul says in Romans 14:4, 'Who are you to judge someone else’s servant?' It's like asking me to judge what's in your heart and I can't do that, and neither can you.

So please, go read Romans 14 again, then get up on December 25th and say God, I may not have a tree, but along with a billion other Christians I celebrate this day in remembrance of your Son. Then maybe next year you can realize that it's actually the thought that counts, and a tree is just a tree.

I see the whole Christmas thing as a pain in the neck, crowded busses, crowded shops,

but that is the way things are, and there is nothing to be gained from being grumpy.

I do like lights though.

partinobodycular said:

There's absolutely nothing wrong with putting a pine tree in your house. It simply signifies that this is a day, and this is a season, that I have chosen to set aside to remember Christ. That's it. There's no secret agenda hidden in there, unless you as an individual choose to put it there. In which case it's perfectly fine for you not to put a pine tree in your house. That's between you, your conscience, and God. But likewise, if I do choose to put a pine tree in my house, that's also between me, my conscience, and God.

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Putting a tree in your house is linked to the winter solstice to celebrate the god Ra. This has nothing to do with what is in your heart, and everything to do with action. I backed up my premise with the example of Exodus. You are taking Romans 14 out of context and using it to justify celebrating a pagan holiday. Paul argues for walking in righteousness, and not use grace as an excuse to do things contrary to God (Romans 6 and 3, Galatians 5, Titus 2.) Just because a billion Christians celebrate a pagan holiday doesn't make it correct.

You are correct that what you do is up to you and everyone will account for themselves but that doesn't mean I will stop putting the truth out there and let people decide for themselves what they want to do. You can disagree with me, but no it's not the "thought that counts".

Delvianna said:

Putting a tree in your house is linked to the winter solstice to celebrate the god Ra. This has nothing to do with what is in your heart, and everything to do with action. I backed up my premise with the example of Exodus. You are taking Romans 14 out of context and using it to justify celebrating a pagan holiday. Paul argues for walking in righteousness, and not use grace as an excuse to do things contrary to God (Romans 6 and 3, Galatians 5, Titus 2.) Just because a billion Christians celebrate a pagan holiday doesn't make it correct.

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Well we could go into a whole exegesis of Romans and Exodus but that would be both pointless and futile. I for one am perfectly content with letting you do you... not that it doesn't dishearten me a bit, but that's people, so what are you gonna do.

Oh, and Merry Christmas.

Delvianna said:

They do have a point though. I know the article mentions Saturnalia and Bacchanalia, but the real holiday in question is Sol Invictus which was celebrated on December 25th which is the birth of the sun god Sol Invictus thanks to emperor Aurelian in 274 AD.

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This is a common claim, but there is no actual evidence that Aurelian started any celebration of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti. He dedicated a temple on December 25, true, but there is as far as I am aware no mention from back then he ever started a celebration, even if that's a common claim people make.

Delvianna said:

The first record we have of Christmas was from Constantine in 336AD which was called the "Feast of the Nativity". I know there are calculations before that but its based off of pagan equinox calculations when they believe the sun was birthed, so still pagan in root.

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But the first apparent reference to the "birth of the sun god Sol Invictus" being on December 25 comes from the same document (the Chronograph of 354; despite its name, some parts of it date earlier) as the one you refer to. Thus there is a lack of evidence it came before Christmas. It could have easily been done in imitation of Christmas, particularly given the earlier (though sometimes disputed) references to or at least implications of Christmas on December 25 that came earlier than this, and indeed before even Aurelian (though, again, there is a lack of evidence he started any festival).

In regards to the equinox calculations claim, it is not quite clear what this is in reference to, but the calculation of the equinoxes is not pagan. Equinoxes exist, after all. Indeed, the calculation of the spring equinox was very important to the Jewish calendar. It has about 354 days in it, which obviously falls short of the solar year. So every several years they add in an extra month at the start to keep pace. This is nowadays done by a cycle (albeit one that is slightly off and will need to be fixed at some point), but in the past they put in the extra month when they thought that Passover would fall before the spring equinox, as it was a spring festival. This obviously meant they had to engage in calculations of when the spring equinox was each year.

Delvianna said:

Putting a tree in your house is linked to the winter solstice to celebrate the god Ra.

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In the first place, you'll have to provide evidence that this was ever a way to celebrate the god Ra; far too many of these sorts of claims are totally made up, with no one able to point to any primary source for them... after all, they're made up. Now maybe this one is actually legitimate, but if so evidence should be provided for it.

However, even if it is true, it is extraordinarily unlikely to have any connection to Christmas trees. Christmas trees appear to have first emerged in the 1500's. Whatever practice there might have been in regards to trees and Ra (again, assuming that's true) would have been dead for so long that there would be no plausible connection and any similarity would be coincidental.

Delvianna said:

Putting a tree in your house is linked to the winter solstice to celebrate the god Ra.

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That's definitely what the German Christians in the 1400 and 1500's were thinking. That's where the Christmas tree started by the way, in late medieval Germany.

What historical sources, by the way, are you using? I'm curious about this ancient Egyptian practice of bringing in trees into their houses on the winter solstice to celebrate Ra. I'm something of a history nerd, so I am always curious to learn more about ancient history. I imagine you must be relying on an archeological piece of evidence, or an historic Egyptian document, or perhaps something written by Egypt's neighbors documenting this practice.

@JSRG
I'm not going to be able to make every point, I don't have the time (my cat had eye surgery and I have to watch him like a hawk for the next 2 weeks) But I at least wanted to respond with one thing.

Roman coins featured Sol the phrase "Sol Dominus Imperii Romani" (Sol, Lord of the Roman Empire). With the Agones Solis athletic games and the temple dedication as well as the coins, point to the fact undeniably that Aurelian followed and promoted this god. Now, the discrepancy with the date. On a roman calendar Chornography 354, it lists "Birthday of the Unconquered" on December 25th.

@ViaCrucis
I'll give some links:
Link 1
Link 2

You can research the archeology findings of the hieroglyph Renpet, the tomb of Qubbet el-Hawa, Deir El-Medina (Village). There's a lot more, but like I said to JSRG, I just don't have the time to go over it. My cats surgery was unexpected. I'll give you more info when I get more time.

I believe Christmas is the fulfillment of Chanukah just like the Christian Passover of the Lord’s Resurrection ( “Easter”) is the fulfillment of the Jewish Passover. It’s just that Chanukah came much later, was fulfilled quicker, and had less standing tradition.

The account of Passover is recorded in 2 Maccabees 10 in verses 1 through 10. Since not every Christian group accepts the Maccabees books, there is less of a sense of scriptural foundation. Nonetheless, the lunar calendar month of Chislev ( “Casleu” in 17th c. English expression) with a Chanukah date of the 25th rotates every year on the solar calendar. It is the same pattern with the better accepted understanding of the OT Passover as fulfilled by the Lord’s Passover ( 1 Corinthians 5:7) . The only difference is that the Lord’s Nativity has a fixed date of the 25th on the solar calendar.

The record of Chanukah in 2 Maccabees
10:1-10, especially verse 5.


Plus during Chanukah the Lord clearly declared His fulfillment of this in John 10:1-42 ( see verses11, 14, 22, & 23).

Delvianna said:

Roman coins featured Sol the phrase "Sol Dominus Imperii Romani" (Sol, Lord of the Roman Empire). With the Agones Solis athletic games and the temple dedication as well as the coins, point to the fact undeniably that Aurelian followed and promoted this god. Now, the discrepancy with the date. On a roman calendar Chornography 354, it lists "Birthday of the Unconquered" on December 25th.

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Aurelian did follow and promote Sol. But that's not the question. The question is, did Aurelian ever set up a December 25 holiday for this god? Despite a popular claim he did, there is not evidence he ever did (he just dedicated a temple on that date), given the lack of reference to any such holiday at the time, and the first apparent reference doesn't come until the Chronograph of 354, which you actually mention.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by discrepancy of the date, but I'm very well aware of this reference, as I mentioned it in my prior post. But this brings us to the problem, which I noted in my previous post, but perhaps did not explain well enough.

The Chronograph of 354 is the first reference to Dies Natalis Solis Invicti (birthday of the Invincible Sun or birthday of Sol the Invincible--Sol was the name of both the Sun and the Sun god). Well, if it is a reference. It only says "Natalis Invicti" (birth of the invincible) with no mention of Sol, so it is possible that the actual Dies Natalis Solis Invicti was a still later creation. But let's accept that this was a shorthand way of saying it. The problem is that the Chronograph of 354 also mentions Christmas as being on December 25 in a separate portion. In other words, it provides no evidence that Dies Natalis Solis Invicti predates Christmas. If Dies Natalis Solis Invicti did not predate Christmas, then the entire idea that Christmas was chosen in imitation collapses, and it could have in fact been the other way around.

Delvianna said:

@ViaCrucis
I'll give some links:
Link 1
Link 2

You can research the archeology findings of the hieroglyph Renpet, the tomb of Qubbet el-Hawa, Deir El-Medina (Village). There's a lot more, but like I said to JSRG, I just don't have the time to go over it. My cats surgery was unexpected. I'll give you more info when I get more time.

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Note: Due to some kind of bug on the forums, if I quote this post and it includes the links within "Link 1" and "Link 2", it encounters an error and refuses to post this reply. So I had to edit the quote to remove the links themselves (so it only says "Link 1" and "Link 2" as simple text), but someone can go back to the original post to look at them. But anyway, let's talk about them.

Link 1 does not appear to be a scholarly source in any way, and claims "At the winter solstice, in anticipation of Ra’s return, the Egyptians would fill their homes with green date palm rushes that symbolized Ra’s recovery and triumph over death." As its source, it links to an article on The History Channel's website (the channel that airs "Ancient Aliens") which claims without citation that "At the winter solstice, when Ra began to recover from his illness, the Egyptians filled their homes with green palms and papyrus reeds to symbolize the triumph of life over death." So we have a non-scholarly source citing a non-scholarly source which itself gives no citation. This means it provides no evidence for the claim.

Link 2 does look to actually be scholarly (its author appears to be a professor of Graeco-Roman archaeology), and it includes plenty of footnotes. So this looks to be a much more valid source than the first. This article discusses the use of palm trees (and especially palm branches), primarily in Egypt but with a look towards some neighboring cultures like the Greeks or Israel. However, we run into a problem: Your claim was that "Putting a tree in your house is linked to the winter solstice to celebrate the god Ra." But unless I am missing something, in this article there is no mention of Ra, no mention of the winter solstice, and no mention of anyone putting up palm trees in their homes. This thus actually casts further doubt on your claim, for if it were true that there was a custom of bringing in palm trees for the winter solstice in celebration of Ra, one would have expected to see it mentioned in this.

Even if this claim about Ra and the solstice was true, however, we run into the other big problem, which both I and ViaCrucis have pointed out. Christmas trees started out in Germany around the year 1500 AD. So even if this claim about Ra was true--and again, that's a big if considering the lack of evidence offered so far--why (and for that matter, how) would the Germans from around 1500 AD be taking celebration ideas from Egyptian practices that had died out more than a thousand years ago and the Germans would presumably not even be aware of?

Niels said:

The so-called war on Christmas is interesting. Despite the common narrative, none of the atheists I know have a problem with the holiday, or even have a problem with saying Merry Christmas. They seem to like giving and receiving gifts as much as anybody else.

The religious objections to it are stronger. And although I celebrate Christmas, that's fine with me. What's the problem if somebody doesn't want to celebrate a holiday? It doesn't necessarily mean they think other people worship trees or whatever. More likely, they see all days as equally worth thanking God for or dislike the commercialism.

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I have encountered the same thing. I have many atheist friends, none seem to have any problem at all with my celebrating Christmas . The only harassment I have ever had for my celebrating Christmas was from Christians.
Tonight we had the Festival of Lessons and Carols one of the most beautiful events of the year It is a peaceful and inspiring way to usher in the final week of Advent And yes, I celebrate Advent too.
As for whether or not others celebrate it, well, that is their choice, so long as they do not try to interfere with my enjoyment of it