Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

Dan1988 · Wednesday at 6:30 AM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
You already did. I have no issues with ECT.

Verse plucking isn't possible when we believe every Word of God applies to everyone, as Jesus said, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

As to Jesus not being The Savior of the world and you not believing that, what can I say?

I don't believe it because it's not true. If the Lord Jesus was the Saviour of every single person in the world, then why does He cast the majority into hell. Are you suggesting that the Lord Jesus, first saves a man and then turns around and betrays him by casing him into the lake of fire.

Can you see how this theory of yours makes the Lord look like a hypocrite?

Dan1988 · Wednesday at 6:38 AM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
God has spoken through His Son from cover to cover. His speech is entirely sufficient for all, everywhere, already. Openly available. No holds barred.

Your man trust claims would bring alarms to most believers of the traditional sorts, me included. It's cultish, particularly when not disclosed who it is, but backhanded to others. You may not even be an accurate spokesperson

No, none of that is true according to God. His speech is foolishness to the vast majority of mankind. Most of the 8 billion inhabitants of the earth are unbelievers, and Gods Word confirms that His Word is foolishness to those whoa re perishing and that's the majority view.

It would be refreshing to see, if at least one of your opinions was biblically correct.

RamiC · Wednesday at 7:03 AM

Dan1988 said:
I just asked the Lord Jesus for a new Ferrari, but He didn't hear me and He didn't give me a nice red Ferrari either.

" You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." John 14:14

He will teach, He is here to show Himself to people.

ladodgers6 · Wednesday at 1:13 PM

Mark Quayle said:
I hope you meant, "novice astronomer"!

Sure did.

ladodgers6 · Wednesday at 1:16 PM

Mark Quayle said:
I hope you meant, "novice astronomer"!

Still trying to figure it out. Trying to find ways to prevent dew on my EP's. Are you into Astronomy?

Mark Quayle · Wednesday at 9:44 PM

zelosravioli said:
You ask: Do we know what death is? Do we know what life is?

Death is obvious - the first death - as all living beings have observed: is a body becoming lifeless, decaying, turning to bones, and DEAD. Death needs no defining. As well, the first death defines the ‘second’ death - lifeless, decaying, DEAD.

Scripture defines death as well over and over: gone, forgotten, blotted out, destroyed, they are no more, etc.

Yes, death is defined in scripture as a process: the first death is of the body. First you go to Sheol or Abraham’s bosom (or paradise), then there is the Great judgement where the dead are separated one from another. The righteous to eternal life and the unrighteousness to eternal punishment - they are punished ‘according to their deeds’ (here they are still a living conscious spirit) and ultimately they go to the Lake of fire - the second ‘death’.

According to their deeds: Psalm 28:4, Isaiah 59:18, Jeremiah 17:10, 25:14, 32:19, Ezekiel 16:59, 36:19, 39:24, Matthew 16:27, Romans 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Galatians 6:7, Revelation 20:13, 22:12, etc.

The second death is just as the first death - it is ’death’. Then all is fulfilled. And so then the many 100 scriptures that speak of ‘death’ are fulfilled. The dead sinners are gone, forgotten, forever blotted out, as water into the ground, destroyed, perished, they are no more: Isaiah 17:14, 26:14, 60:12, Psalm 53:5, 54:5, 59:13, 88:5, 92:7, 94:23, 109:13, Job 24:20, Jeremiah 9:16, 10:20, Nahum 1:12, Job 14:12, Daniel 11:44, Zechariah 11:9, Joshua 11:12, 11:20, 24:8, Deuteronomy 7:24, 8:19, 9:3, 12:29, 32:26, Ezekiel 20:13, 20:17, 1 Corinthians 10:10, 2 Thes 2:8, etc. etc… so did God mean he would destroy them, or did God mean he keeps them alive in torment forever? I believe God means what He means - they are destroyed.

Death does not need to be described in anthropomorphic terms, neither does life. There is no ’not understanding’ what death and life are - that is, unless you prescribe to the eternal torture doctrine.

You say, "Death does not need to be described in anthropomorphic terms, neither does life." Yet, that is all you have done here. You define them by your point-of-view." Even when you use scriptural terminology, you don't know more than what little you know, just like me. Can you say, WHY, or HOW life does what it does? Who does God think we are, apart from him?

Look at the various words for destruction in both old and NT, and even the contexts for "done away with" in its various expressions. I don't often read them to mean, "returned to null". I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying you haven't done much to support your position. It seems to me that there's too much to contrast with God's abhorrence of sin and his retribution for it, to say they are just returned to non-existence.

Mark Quayle · Wednesday at 9:50 PM

ladodgers6 said:
Still trying to figure it out. Trying to find ways to prevent dew on my EP's. Are you into Astronomy?

I used to be, back when I was extremely near-sighted. But it didn't last long. I had a radial keratotomy done (precursor to lasic) and ever since, a star looks like about 8 main ones, with a bunch of streaks and other distortion around them. Had to give it up 35 or 40 years ago. Had a real nice telescope (cheap cardboard tube but great optics) 10" reflector. The best thing I found for it was to keep it covered, and uncovered only while my eye was looking through it. I used a bucket cap for the tube and another plastic cap for the eyepiece, and a cloth over the whole business.

I never did find anything that worked well for it, but they say that there is some kind of spray that is good for optics, and doesn't let condensation form.

Of course, the best viewing was the cold night, ironically. I kept it in the cold garage so there was little condensation typical of bringing it into the warm of the house.

Spent many a happy night with a cold runny nose, trying to find as many of the Messier Objects as I could, and finding some objects that (I was hoping) were ORIGINAL DISCOVERIES by ME!!

(I don't remember the names of any of those--(none of them were unknown, of course)-- but it was curious to me that Messier missed some of them, and I couldn't find some of his!)

zelosravioli · 2025-12-18T00:04:38-0600

Dan1988 said:
God doesn't agree with you. Gods description of death is very different to your theory.
If I was to go along with your theory, then it would be necessary to consider what God said about the matter as being a lie. And I know God doesn't lie, it's not in His nature to lie.

God said "In the day you eat of it, you shall surely die". Did Adam die, on the day he ate the forbidden fruit, according to you he did not die so that means that God lied to Adam, or it means that your theology is dead wrong...

Adam went on to live another 900 odd years, before he experienced your version of death. So in summary, according to your version of death Adam may have died three times. He first died, on the day he sinned, then he died again when he was around 960 years of age, then he died the second biblical death, or the third death according to your theory.

I don’t think God agrees with your ‘math‘. You have two different numbers as your answer.
No man has died the second death yet - the Lake of fire - IS the ‘second’ death.
Like all mankind: we are all under ‘the sentence‘ of death - and because of ‘the sentence‘ we will all die.
Its not my theory - scripture only speaks of ‘two’ deaths.
The death of the body - is the first death.
The death of our spirit- is the second death (that is if we aren’t born again).

We can choose to ‘die with Christ,’ He died for us so we don’t have to, and if we do we are instantly raised with His spirit in newness of life, we are a new creation. But note we don’t die because we join Him in His death - he died in our place. Our body dies, so it can’t be the body that we are concerned with (as in the verses from John below). Only the saved die with Christ.

But according to Eternal torment theory - you supposedly die three times, and yet you are still consciously alive in the Lake of Fire? And you were somehow dead the whole time you were alive on Earth? And the believer was supposedly dead already when they die again with Christ?
So we were either kinda dead - or should it be understood, as scripture says ‘under the curse of death’.

Adam - like all humans after him are ‘under the curse’ ‘the penalty of sin is death.
Christ freed us from ‘the Law of sin and death’ the ‘curse’ of death, just as
Adam was under the ‘curse’ of death.
I understand ‘the church has said’ for centuries that ‘Adam died spiritually’ in order to try and explain the difficulty of the fact that Adam didn't die the ‘day’ he sinned. But no where in scripture does it say ‘Adam died spiritually’. It does not make sense that Adam was just a living ‘body’. ‘We’ are spirits, we aren’t the body.

Our body is our tent. We have a body, but ‘we’ are living spirits. The theory of Eternal torment wants us to believe ‘Adam died spiritually ‘that day’. Conditional Immortality suggests Adam was put under the curse of death on that day, just like the other curses. Adam was ‘alive’ after sinning, but condemned to die. The Eternal torment theory makes spiritual ‘death’ kind of meaningless if we are still ‘alive’ as Adam was.

But Conditional Immortality says ‘God meant Adam will die’ and ‘Adam did die, and actually will experience spiritual death and die’ if he is not saved. Saved from the second death in the Lake of Fire - The second death.

Your ECT theory has Adams spirit dead while he is living, and then his spirit ‘continues’ to live forever in the Lake of Fire the second death - so Eternal conscious torment doctrine has Adam dying three times. And that also means neither of the two deaths of the spirit are actual deaths. Make that make sense. (as a side note: Genesis 3:22 says Adam had to be expelled from the garden so that he might not continue to live forever… how is that possible if he was dead)

While Conditional Immortality says: death means death, the second death is the second death, the guilty are punished ‘according’ to their works, people are raised to life only if they die ‘in Christ’.

John 3:16 ‘For God so loved the world that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life’
John 3:36 ‘The one who believes in the Son has eternal life - but the one who does not obey the son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him’
John 8:51 Truly truly I say to you, if anyone follows my Word he will never taste of death’
John 10:28. ‘and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish’

zelosravioli · 2025-12-18T01:52:22-0600

Mark Quayle said:
You say, "Death does not need to be described in anthropomorphic terms, neither does life." Yet, that is all you have done here. You define them by your point-of-view." Even when you use scriptural terminology, you don't know more than what little you know, just like me. Can you say, WHY, or HOW life does what it does? Who does God think we are, apart from him?

Look at the various words for destruction in both old and NT, and even the contexts for "done away with" in its various expressions. I don't often read them to mean, "returned to null". I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying you haven't done much to support your position. It seems to me that there's too much to contrast with God's abhorrence of sin and his retribution for it, to say they are just returned to non-existence.

Anthropomorphic terms are used to describe something about God in human terms so we would understand something about Him we are not familiar with - God does not die, and we are not talking about Gods death (?) we are talking about ‘our’ death (as in the OP). There is no reason to use anthropomorphic at all because we all know what death and life are. I did not bring up anthropomorphic.

What little ‘I‘ know about life and death? I know what life and death are, but I do not know what you are talking about if you don’t know what it means to be alive or dead.

You may be thinking of the purely annihilationist view, I am not exposing that. If you read my posts you see that I am exposing the Conditionalist position- that the sinner is punished according to their deeds. They are not ‘just returned to non-existence’ as you said. They are punished, each for their own sins, some I suppose for a very long time, and then thrown into the Lake of fire.

Dan1988 · 2025-12-18T04:30:01-0600

RamiC said:
" You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." John 14:14

He will teach, He is here to show Himself to people.

What does it mean to "ask for anything in my name and I will do it". Is a new Ferrari not included in the "anything".

Where is He, you claim "He is here to show Himself to people" but I've never seen Him and I don't know of anyone who has seen Him, unless you're talking about those pictures you find in Catholic souvenir shops, where they sell pictures of Jesus.

He is portrayed as a young, effeminate European man with long blond hair and piercing blue eyes. Apart from those portraits, I've never heard of any positive sightings.

Now lets consider what the Lord Jesus Himself said before He ascended to heaven>>>>

John 16:10: "of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;".

Did you catch the last part of the verse "you see Me no more". Do you suppose that He wasn't speaking the truth????. Well if you reckon He's here teaching people then He wasn't speaking the truth :crossrc:

Dan1988 · 2025-12-18T05:07:29-0600

zelosravioli said:
I don’t think God agrees with your ‘math‘. You have two different numbers as your answer.
No man has died the second death yet - the Lake of fire - IS the ‘second’ death.
Like all mankind: we are all under ‘the sentence‘ of death - and because of ‘the sentence‘ we will all die.
Its not my theory - scripture only speaks of ‘two’ deaths.
The death of the body - is the first death.
The death of our spirit- is the second death (that is if we aren’t born again).

We can choose to ‘die with Christ,’ He died for us so we don’t have to, and if we do we are instantly raised with His spirit in newness of life, we are a new creation. But note we don’t die because we join Him in His death - he died in our place. Our body dies, so it can’t be the body that we are concerned with (as in the verses from John below). Only the saved die with Christ.

But according to Eternal torment theory - you supposedly die three times, and yet you are still consciously alive in the Lake of Fire? And you were somehow dead the whole time you were alive on Earth? And the believer was supposedly dead already when they die again with Christ?
So we were either kinda dead - or should it be understood, as scripture says ‘under the curse of death’.

Adam - like all humans after him are ‘under the curse’ ‘the penalty of sin is death.
Christ freed us from ‘the Law of sin and death’ the ‘curse’ of death, just as
Adam was under the ‘curse’ of death.
I understand ‘the church has said’ for centuries that ‘Adam died spiritually’ in order to try and explain the difficulty of the fact that Adam didn't die the ‘day’ he sinned. But no where in scripture does it say ‘Adam died spiritually’. It does not make sense that Adam was just a living ‘body’. ‘We’ are spirits, we aren’t the body.

Our body is our tent. We have a body, but ‘we’ are living spirits. The theory of Eternal torment wants us to believe ‘Adam died spiritually ‘that day’. Conditional Immortality suggests Adam was put under the curse of death on that day, just like the other curses. Adam was ‘alive’ after sinning, but condemned to die. The Eternal torment theory makes spiritual ‘death’ kind of meaningless if we are still ‘alive’ as Adam was.

But Conditional Immortality says ‘God meant Adam will die’ and ‘Adam did die, and actually will experience spiritual death and die’ if he is not saved. Saved from the second death in the Lake of Fire - The second death.

Your ECT theory has Adams spirit dead while he is living, and then his spirit ‘continues’ to live forever in the Lake of Fire the second death - so Eternal conscious torment doctrine has Adam dying three times. And that also means neither of the two deaths of the spirit are actual deaths. Make that make sense. (as a side note: Genesis 3:22 says Adam had to be expelled from the garden so that he might not continue to live forever… how is that possible if he was dead)

While Conditional Immortality says: death means death, the second death is the second death, the guilty are punished ‘according’ to their works, people are raised to life only if they die ‘in Christ’.

John 3:16 ‘For God so loved the world that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life’
John 3:36 ‘The one who believes in the Son has eternal life - but the one who does not obey the son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him’
John 8:51 Truly truly I say to you, if anyone follows my Word he will never taste of death’
John 10:28. ‘and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish’

You put me in a very difficult position, where I'm forced to choose to believe your theory or Gods Word, because you obviously don't believe what God said in >>>>>

Genesis 2: "16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying: 'Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die'".

Now can you see my problem, Gods said "for in the day you eat of it, you shall surely die". But you say "no, he did not die". then you go on to justify your rejection of Gods Word, by inventing this wild "Conditional Immorality", which I've never heard of before. It sounds like you've invented a new religion here.

Please enlighten me, by showing me where the Bible says that unbelievers are annihilated, or that they cease to exist. Save yourself the headache and don't bother looking for that non existent doctrine, you will never find any such nonsense in the bible.

How many deaths does a man need to die to fulfill the ultimate desire of cessation of existence. Gods Word confirms that we are all born dead in sin, so that's one death, then according to you we die again of old age and then some suffer the second death. So I've just counted three deaths, your theory just doesn't add up.

I would suggest you do a bible study to learn about the many deaths described in the bible. You will find there are 6 or 7 different deaths, but sadly for you none of them support your disappearing forever trick.

You may have heard about a coming event some refer to as judgement day. On that terrible day, the bible confirms that everyone who has ever lived will be reunited with their body, only this time the body remains in it's present form for all eternity.
Gods elect receive our glorified perfect bodies, and we became perfectly sinless like Christ. But the goats, will be cast in their bodies of sin to be tormented eternally in hell with no hope of escape. They will feel pain of burning and they will spend eternity screaming in agony.

You can't wish away the doctrine of hell, Jesus spoke about it more than anyone else. Are you prepared to pluck out you eye or cut off your right arm to avoid going to hell, well the Lord Jesus sure believed it was abetter choice, so why don't people believe in Him.

BelieveItOarKnot · 2025-12-18T06:06:34-0600

Dan1988 said:
No, none of that is true according to God. His speech is foolishness to the vast majority of mankind.

Apparently if you can't understand it....you can only do so via some other guy telling you what it all means

Short version: God's Word is insufficient

Don't know why it's sufficient for your boss but not for you.

Dan1988 said:
Most of the 8 billion inhabitants of the earth are unbelievers,

Entirely dependent on how tight and stingy people are with their filters. Or not

There is more than adequate room to love all our neighbors as ourselves don't you think?

Dan1988 said:
and Gods Word confirms that His Word is foolishness to those whoa re perishing and that's the majority view.

We all perish. Col. 3:3

Dan1988 said:
It would be refreshing to see, if at least one of your opinions was biblically correct.

I'm good with the primary command, Romans 13:8-10. How bout you?

BelieveItOarKnot · 2025-12-18T06:15:31-0600

Dan1988 said:
I don't believe it because it's not true. If the Lord Jesus was the Saviour of every single person in the world, then why does He cast the majority into hell.

You do understand that there is not one single named person said to be in hell now or in the future? Nor is there a single named person even threatened with that fate.

ALL of orthodoxy has never been able to confirm that any named person is in hell. No, not one.

Dan1988 said:
Are you suggesting that the Lord Jesus, first saves a man and then turns around and betrays him by casing him into the lake of fire.

Man in scripture is not a sole individual. It is man and the tempter (or his own)

Just as Jesus spoke to Satan in Peter or Satan entering Judas or Paul having a messenger of Satan in his own flesh, 2 Cor. 12:7

Dan1988 said:
Can you see how this theory of yours makes the Lord look like a hypocrite?

I have no issues with the devil and his messengers being sent to the lake of fire forever and ever.

So maybe look at the obvious. WHERE did Jesus show us the devil and his messengers operate? Its completely open disclosure: IN MANKIND

zelosravioli · 2025-12-18T10:12:36-0600

Dan1988 said:
You put me in a very difficult position, where I'm forced to choose to believe your theory or Gods Word, because you obviously don't believe what God said in >>>>>

Genesis 2: "16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying: 'Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die'".

Now can you see my problem, Gods said "for in the day you eat of it, you shall surely die". But you say "no, he did not die". then you go on to justify your rejection of Gods Word, by inventing this wild "Conditional Immorality", which I've never heard of before. It sounds like you've invented a new religion here.

Please enlighten me, by showing me where the Bible says that unbelievers are annihilated, or that they cease to exist. Save yourself the headache and don't bother looking for that non existent doctrine, you will never find any such nonsense in the bible.

How many deaths does a man need to die to fulfill the ultimate desire of cessation of existence. Gods Word confirms that we are all born dead in sin, so that's one death, then according to you we die again of old age and then some suffer the second death. So I've just counted three deaths, your theory just doesn't add up.

I would suggest you do a bible study to learn about the many deaths described in the bible. You will find there are 6 or 7 different deaths, but sadly for you none of them support your disappearing forever trick.

You may have heard about a coming event some refer to as judgement day. On that terrible day, the bible confirms that everyone who has ever lived will be reunited with their body, only this time the body remains in it's present form for all eternity.
Gods elect receive our glorified perfect bodies, and we became perfectly sinless like Christ. But the goats, will be cast in their bodies of sin to be tormented eternally in hell with no hope of escape. They will feel pain of burning and they will spend eternity screaming in agony.

You can't wish away the doctrine of hell, Jesus spoke about it more than anyone else. Are you prepared to pluck out you eye or cut off your right arm to avoid going to hell, well the Lord Jesus sure believed it was abetter choice, so why don't people believe in Him.

I‘m glad you counting, because ‘your’ ECT (eternal conscious torment) doctrine has three deaths, not CI (conditional immortality). I said a number of times: the first death is of the body. The second death is the spirit (in the lake of fire).
I believe God when he said Adam would die
But ECT interprets death as ‘spiritual separation from God’ - and then call spiritual separation ‘death’..
I trust God meant exactly what he said DEATH - I am not redefining the meaning of DEATH.
ECT redefines death as alive - but just separated from God.

There maybe different forms of CI, but the Conditional immortality I’m referring to does not deny hell, the punishment of hell, nor does it redefine anything. Hell or Gehenna as well as every mention of punishment of the sinner is real and the sinner will go there and suffer and be punished ’according’ to their sins, and then they are put to death.

Conditional immortality does not even need the word annihilation - death is sufficient - just as all scripture says ‘the person who sins will die’. ECT doctrine redefines ‘death’ as ‘separation from God’. CI does not redefine death, death means death. If the dead are annihilated or destroyed or blotted out, left as corpses in a grave, as scripture says, or whatever, the sinner is dead.

So you see I believe God means the sinner will die - but ECT teaches the sinner never dies.
That is why ‘Conditional immortality’ is called ‘conditional’ immortality.
Immortality is based on the condition that you choose life.
Only the believer lives on in immortality - the sinner will die just as was promised in the Garden of Eden.

”I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of my hand”

Troll Monster · 2025-12-18T23:26:46-0600

ladodgers6 said:
Exactly right! BTW, Calvin disliked the nickname "Calvinism" coined by the Lutherans. A matter of fact, Calvin preferred Doctrines of Grace because this is what the Scriptures teach. People misconstrue this point often, if not all the time. They use ad hominem tactics instead of presenting a case to disprove it. I know why from experience.

Test

ladodgers6 · 2025-12-18T23:27:33-0600

Troll Monster said:
Test

???

JulieB67 · 2025-12-19T04:26:08-0600

zelosravioli said:
No man has died the second death yet - the Lake of fire - IS the ‘second’ death.

Yes, exactly. It's so simple.

JulieB67 · 2025-12-19T04:28:31-0600

Dan1988 said:
Please enlighten me, by showing me where the Bible says that unbelievers are annihilated, or that they cease to exist. Save yourself the headache and don't bother looking for that non existent doctrine, you will never find any such nonsense in the bible.

Enlighten you? Doubtful that will happen. Many people have shown you scripture that you continue to ignore. It's apparent you're not interested in having an honest biblical discussion. So why bother? You're just going to continue with your one sided rants that have proven nothing beyond the fact that your so indoctrinated at this point. Hopefully down the line you'll be open to some honest discussion but at this point no one can even discuss scripture with you because you continue to ignore the ones posted.

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