Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

ladodgers6 said:

Thanks for sharing with you. I like having discussions with civil manners. Yeah, people IMHO have their own prerogative & aptitude to seek what they wish. I am a novice astrologer whose always in awe when witnessing the wonders of space. Just witnessing M31, Saturn, Jupiter all point to a Divine Maker. Physics or natural laws all also point to a designer. I am now studying Quantum Physics & Micro Biology: Human Cells (Mitosis).

All that being said, doesn't reveal what God has accomplished in His Son for His people. The historical record of the eschatological consummation of God's Redemptive Plan is what I am interested in. That to me is more awe taking that anything else I have read. I am only sharing with you.

Thanks again for sharing.

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I hope you meant, "novice astronomer"!

zelosravioli said:
'those who's names are not written in the book of life are also cast into the lake of fire with the devil'
But - No - it does not say those who's names are not 'written in the book of life' will be tormented day and night.
Verse 20:10 says '..the beast and the false prophet' they will be tormented day and night forever and ever'
The Angels the beast and the false prophet apparently are immortal, but humans are not immortal.
Like Ghenna, the Lake Of Fire burns up the dead, like all fire does, it consumes.
Otherwise it's a poor fire that does not burn anything.

Dan1988 said:

No, that's nonsense and wishful thinking. I can give you a truckload of verses showing that those in the lake of fire are all tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I don't want to hurt your feelings by citing those awful verses, but I'm happy to do so if that's what you want.

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More to the point, I think, the devil and his demons are responsible moral agents like we are. Why does @zelosravioli not demand that they too be released/annihilated/whatever construction he goes with. If they are to be "tormented day and night forever and ever", why not humans?

RamiC said:

BTW, I will not be bothered by any of them, since not one of them will invalidate John 3-16

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Exactly. He resorts to calling it a "cult" to believe in this verse because he and the ECT doctrine falls apart with it. They know they have to add to this verse to fit their doctrine.

Dan1988 said:

You are entitled to your opinion that ECT is only for the Devil and His Demons, but the bible doesn't support your view.

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Jesus being the Savior of the world is scripture and does not mean Jesus fails. There is also scriptural evidence that all of Israel is saved, even enemies of the Gospel, Romans 11:26-32

Dan1988 said:

Gods Word confirms that your opinion is not based on what He said about the matter.

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I might even agree with you IF there was a single named person said to be in hell now or in the future as evidence of such a fate, but alas for your position, there is none. There is not even a single named person even threatened with such a fate.

And of course there is that little known "love your neighbors as yourself" command. I wouldn't expect God to do less than that. Would you?

And His mercy of course endures forever.

I'd suggest there is undeniable and overwhelming scriptural evidence. And who in their right mind wants to see anyone burned alive forever anyway? I can see antiChrist spirits having that fate, but not people. They were made exactly for that fate. They know it. God knows it. It's openly written about

Dan1988 said:

Here's just some of what He revealed about hell. He said that hell is a place of eternal conscious torment (ECT), in verses like Matthew 25:46 ("eternal punishment"), Mark 9:48 ("unquenchable fire," "worm does not die"), Revelation 14:11 ("smoke of their torment rises forever and ever"), and 2 Thessalonians 1:9 ("everlasting destruction"), interpreting "eternal" and "forever and ever" (αἰώνιος, εἰς αἰῶνας αἰώνων) as endless duration, not annihilation, to signify perpetual suffering and separation from God for the wicked.

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We've already agreed on this point, so we can move on with the descriptions. Other than I don't recall if you noted said "torment" transpires in the presence of Jesus, forever and ever? Rev. 14:10

Dan1988 said:

Whilst I agree that Satan is doing everything He can to deceive, harass, oppress and accuse Gods Elect. We know that it's impossible to deceive us, because we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit who protects us and jeeps us in the truth and makes it impossible for anyone to deceive us with false doctrine or the doctrine of Demons.

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Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

To say Satan doesn't steal Word from our hearts as Jesus stated in Mark 4:15 is to basically deny Jesus' Own Words on the matter. Not a cool thing to do for any supposed "elect."

And of course we all see only in part and as through a glass, darkly, which serves to confirm the fact that we are all at least partly blinded. Call it partly cloudy if you prefer.

And of course our real life is presently hid, Col. 3:3

I'd suggest that people who say they don't sin, say their sin is not of the devil or say they don't have evil present within them, are not even able to "tell the truth." Which makes them....deceived by Satan. You see we kind of have to be able to speak truthfully in order to be "in truth."

There's very legitimate reasons to hate our own life and the lives of others, as Jesus stated we are to do IF we are disciples, Luke 14:26. IF we can't we're not even disciples.

Your guy teaching you how to hate yourself? Jesus is my guy 'cause he "tells the truth." Is the Truth.

Dan1988 said:

I think you were referring to to those who made a false profession of faith in Christ. God hands them over to Satan and they are enslaved by Him and He never sets them free. They are going to spend eternity in the lake of fire, with Satan and the evil Angels/Demons.

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Well, not quite. Paul handed a believer over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so that his spirit would be saved.

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Eccl. 12:7 says similar.

Dan1988 said:

Yes all have sinned, but all the past, present and future sins of Gods people have been paid for in full. So our sins are not counted against us, and we won't be punished for any of them

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Sins are not counted against people to start with, 2 Cor. 5:19

Sins are and will remain counted against the devil and his messengers.

So the blanket forgiveness thingy will not extend as far as you might think, seeing the parties are technically overlapped in this present life.

Dan1988 said:

The Lord Jesus called Peter Satan, because Peter made a false claim or in other words he told a lie and Satan is the father of lies so Peter acted like Satan, but we know he was nothing like Satan in reality. Judas on the other hand was a Devil, so he was indwelt by the Prince of Devils, Satan.

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So when Jesus addressed Satan speaking through Peter or any number of other devils speaking in people shown throughout the Gospels Jesus was only speaking to Peter or the other people and NOT devils? I don't think so. It's an open fact that Jesus addressed demonic agents IN PEOPLE. Open fact. Obvious fact.

Even Paul admitted to having a messenger of Satan in his own flesh, 2 Cor. 12:7. Presumably Paul was the dominator in that arrangement. IN fact the 2nd man/twin speaking truthfully this fact is even shadowed to us in the O.T. with Jacob. And God blessed him for speaking truthfully about being a lying deceiver, posing as the first man.

This of course seems rather open and obvious doesn't it? Why blame Peter when you have the real perp speaking, right there to see? Same principle applied to Judas, Satan entering him. Same principle Jesus stated in Mark 4:15. It's REAL.

Dan1988 said:

I don't know who you're referring to by claiming that "Our sin is no different to others". But the sin of Gods Elect is very different from the unbelievers

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Uh, no, it's not. Not according to Paul anyway, Romans 3:9

Paul even took the claim to be the chief of sinners, after salvation no less, 1 Tim. 1:15

I'd suggest Paul knew he engaged the tempter within, so it was never a question of only Paul, was it?

Dan1988 said:

My Shepherd, just happens to be a Doctor of Theology.

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You might realize that alone sets off alarm bells for believers who know better. You might have a shepherd, small case but we all know that guy is not Thee Shepherd, capital S.

And there is always cause to ask what association this is with. I'd suggest it's probably an extremist form of determinism from reading your posts. Maybe some new offshoot with an authoritarian twist

Mark Quayle said:

zelosravioli said: Like Ghenna, the Lake Of Fire burns up the dead, like all fire does, it consumes. Otherwise it's a poor fire that does not burn anything”
More to the point, I think, the devil and his demons are responsible moral agents like we are. Why does (zelos) not demand that they too be released/annihilated/whatever construction he goes with. If they are to be "tormented day and night forever and ever", why not humans?

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Because scripture ‘says’ the Devil, his angels, the beast and the false prophet will be tormented forever.
Scripture does not say humans will be tormented for forever, it says they go into eternal ‘punishment’.

The word kolasis can mean punishment or torment, true, but Jesus is quoting Daniel 12:2 in Matt 25:46. Daniel 12:2 uses contempt and shame instead of punishment (daraon - contempt, abhorrence/ cherpah -shame, reproach). So it’s only fair to consider the words ‘contempt and shame’ since that is the verse Jesus is quoting the Greek word used to translate Daniels words. And it’s likely Jesus spoke Aramaic. Also it needs to be considered that Daniel 12:2, as well as Matt 25:46 are both antithetical parallelisms. It is a literary device common to scripture and needs to be understood how it’s use can be misunderstood, as well as understood. Especially when building a whole extreme doctrine on this one and only verse that could imply such eternal torment, rather than possibly punishment or contempt.

It is understood that scripture says all Gods Judgements are eternal, and the punishment for sin is death, and death is forever, so the judgment and punishment for sin is death and ‘death’ is forever. THAT is much more consistent with Gods judgments and the statements of death and finality, than ’conscious eternal torture’ of all humans who sinned for eternity - on one nuanced verse.

zelosravioli said:

Because scripture ‘says’ the Devil, his angels, the beast and the false prophet will be tormented … forever.

Because scripture does not say humans will be tormented for forever, it says they go into eternal ‘punishment’.
The word kolasis can mean punishment or torment, true, but Jesus is quoting Daniel 12:2 in Matt 25:46, and the same verse in Daniel uses contempt and shame instead of punishment (daraon - contempt, abhorrence/ cherpah -shame, reproach). So it’s only fair to consider the words contempt and shame, since that is the verse Jesus is quoting, when translating or understanding the Greek word used to translate Daniels words. And it’s likely Jesus spoke Aramaic. Also it needs to be considered that Daniel 12:2 as well as Matt 25:46 are both antithetical parallelisms, it is a literary device common to scripture and needs to be understood how it’s use can be misunderstood as well as understood. Especially when building a whole extreme doctrine on this one and only verse that could imply such eternal torment, rather than possibly punishment or contempt.

It is understood that scripture says all Gods Judgements are eternal, and the punishment for sin is death, and death is forever, so the judgment and punishment for sin is death and ‘death’ is forever. THAT is much more consistent with Gods judgments and the statements of death and finality than re conscious eternal torture of all humans who sinned for eternity - on one nuanced verse.

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So lack of evidence is evidence of a lack.

Does the word, "death", there, imply annihilation, or maybe a process best described by the word, "death", for lack of a more useful anthropomorphism? Do we know what life is? How do we know that the second death is a final end of existence, instead of the removal of God's presence? We know of the first death, but we don't really even know what IT is, except by contrast with what we think life is.

But: If "time" is removed from the equation, neither temporal annihilation nor some form of temporal eternal conscious torment (or maybe both) are necessary. Instead, the equation seems to me to be better represented with "intensity", in keeping with one's rebellion against God. I'm not saying that "intensity" is the way of it, but it seems to me that ECT fits Biblical terminology but is anthropomorphic, while annihilation is wish-think. But they aren't the only ways to describe what Scriptures teach.

zelosravioli said:

Because scripture ‘says’ the Devil, his angels, the beast and the false prophet will be tormented … forever.

Because scripture does not say humans will be tormented for forever, it says they go into eternal ‘punishment’.
The word kolasis can mean punishment or torment, true, but Jesus is quoting Daniel 12:2 in Matt 25:46, and the same verse in Daniel uses contempt and shame instead of punishment (daraon - contempt, abhorrence/ cherpah -shame, reproach). So it’s only fair to consider the words contempt and shame, since that is the verse Jesus is quoting, when translating or understanding the Greek word used to translate Daniels words. And it’s likely Jesus spoke Aramaic. Also it needs to be considered that Daniel 12:2 as well as Matt 25:46 are both antithetical parallelisms, it is a literary device common to scripture and needs to be understood how it’s use can be misunderstood as well as understood. Especially when building a whole extreme doctrine on this one and only verse that could imply such eternal torment, rather than possibly punishment or contempt.

It is understood that scripture says all Gods Judgements are eternal, and the punishment for sin is death, and death is forever, so the judgment and punishment for sin is death and ‘death’ is forever. THAT is much more consistent with Gods judgments and the statements of death and finality than ’conscious eternal torture’ of all humans who sinned for eternity - on one nuanced verse.

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There's only ONE verse?? I'm not going to argue the point, but I think most who go with ECT would disagree. Meanwhile, all the arguments I've heard for annihilation are also suspect. Consider, for example —do we really know what God means by "destruction"?

zelosravioli said:

Daniel 12:2 as well as Matt 25:46 are both antithetical parallelisms, it is a literary device common to scripture and needs to be understood how it’s use can be misunderstood as well as understood.

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Brilliant deduction. That's exactly what it is. So let's make this more interesting.

IF Mark 4:15 is true, and anyone who has experienced internal temptations via the tempter knows this is true, THEN both sides of that equation can be applied to ONE PERSON, that being the person and the tempter.

Similar constructs are found throughout the scriptures. In Daniel for example there are other like statements:

Daniel 11:33-34
And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

IF we read that people and the tempter or his own are the construct of people shown by scripture, THEN narratives take on far more detailed interests.

In Matt. 25's sheep/goat account there are only 2 parties disclosed, that being people and the devil and his messengers. These happen to be walking in the same pair of shoes. So "most" when they read it are falsely led to believe they are only a sheep, but they can not perceive that the goat is with them as well.

This aspect of scripture is largely ignored, hidden, misunderstood, denied. But it is the only path through to understand that every Word of God applies to all of us. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

And again, IF this is true, THEN the damnation, wrath and ECT are actually our BEST ALLIES, because these are against the very enemies that we bear in our own sorry hides.

Mark Quayle said:

So lack of evidence is evidence of a lack.

Does the word, "death", there, imply annihilation, or maybe a process best described by the word, "death", for lack of a more useful anthropomorphism? Do we know what life is? How do we know that the second death is a final end of existence, instead of the removal of God's presence? We know of the first death, but we don't really even know what IT is, except by contrast with what we think life is.

But: If "time" is removed from the equation, neither temporal annihilation nor some form of temporal eternal conscious torment (or maybe both) are necessary. Instead, the equation seems to me to be better represented with "intensity", in keeping with one's rebellion against God. I'm not saying that "intensity" is the way of it, but it seems to me that ECT fits Biblical terminology but is anthropomorphic, while annihilation is wish-think. But they aren't the only ways to describe what Scriptures teach.

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You ask: Do we know what death is? Do we know what life is?

Death is obvious - the first death - as all living beings have observed: is a body becoming lifeless, decaying, turning to bones, and DEAD. Death needs no defining. As well, the first death defines the ‘second’ death - lifeless, decaying, DEAD.

Scripture defines death as well over and over: gone, forgotten, blotted out, destroyed, they are no more, etc.

Yes, death is defined in scripture as a process: the first death is of the body. First you go to Sheol or Abraham’s bosom (or paradise), then there is the Great judgement where the dead are separated one from another. The righteous to eternal life and the unrighteousness to eternal punishment - they are punished ‘according to their deeds’ (here they are still a living conscious spirit) and ultimately they go to the Lake of fire - the second ‘death’.

According to their deeds: Psalm 28:4, Isaiah 59:18, Jeremiah 17:10, 25:14, 32:19, Ezekiel 16:59, 36:19, 39:24, Matthew 16:27, Romans 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Galatians 6:7, Revelation 20:13, 22:12, etc.

The second death is just as the first death - it is ’death’. Then all is fulfilled. And so then the many 100 scriptures that speak of ‘death’ are fulfilled. The dead sinners are gone, forgotten, forever blotted out, as water into the ground, destroyed, perished, they are no more: Isaiah 17:14, 26:14, 60:12, Psalm 53:5, 54:5, 59:13, 88:5, 92:7, 94:23, 109:13, Job 24:20, Jeremiah 9:16, 10:20, Nahum 1:12, Job 14:12, Daniel 11:44, Zechariah 11:9, Joshua 11:12, 11:20, 24:8, Deuteronomy 7:24, 8:19, 9:3, 12:29, 32:26, Ezekiel 20:13, 20:17, 1 Corinthians 10:10, 2 Thes 2:8, etc. etc… so did God mean he would destroy them, or did God mean he keeps them alive in torment forever? I believe God means what He means - they are destroyed.

Death does not need to be described in anthropomorphic terms, neither does life. There is no ’not understanding’ what death and life are - that is, unless you prescribe to the eternal torture doctrine.

Mark Quayle said:

There's only ONE verse?? I'm not going to argue the point, but I think most who go with ECT would disagree. Meanwhile, all the arguments I've heard for annihilation are also suspect. Consider, for example —do we really know what God means by "destruction"?

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There is only one verse that actually has torment (kolasis) associated with eternal (aionoins). And that is the Matt 25:46 quote of Daniel 12:2. You are reading ‘humans living eternally‘ into the Lake of fire verses, and you may also be reading into the judgment verses concerning the Devil, angels, the beast and false prophet. You may also assume there are eternal worms, and that smoke ascending forever mean ‘humans consciously are tortured forever also’. It does not say that in any text, you are ‘reading it into’ the verse. Edoms fire did go out, and worms and fire speak of total destruction - not immortality.

And I already listed and quoted all the usual Eternal Torment doctrine verses (in this thread) that you may be wanting to quote, as this not my first eschatological rodeo.

There is no ancient, or contemporary, person who would think in any place or in any language - that fire and worms do ‘not‘ literally describe the certain end, destruction, and death of something. As anyone who has ever experienced an average fire or a decaying corpse could testify - only a indoctrinated person could imagine that worms or fire speak of ‘eternal consciousness’