144k & Who They Are

BrotherJJ · Friday at 6:14 AM

Rev 7:
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
(PARSING: 144k sealed from ALL the TRIBES of the Children of Jacob/ISRAEL.)

5 Of the tribe of Juda, Reuben & Gad .

6 Of the tribe of Aser, Nepthalim & Manassas

7 Of the tribe of Simeon, Levi & Issachar

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon, Joseph & Benjamin
(PARSING: Verses 5-8 confirm 12k ea x 12 tribes = 144,000)

Gen 32:28 God changed Jacob's name to Israel. The 12 tribes of Israel are Jacob's sons. Each son received a land portion (except Levi/Levites they become the priesthood) Joseph receives a double portion of land (Gen 48) And divides it between his 2 sons Ephraim & Manasseh.

Rev 14:
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him a 144k, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
(PARSING: These 144k were redeemed from the earth)

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
(PARSING: "Redeemed From Among Men" being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God & to the Lamb)

Parsing vs 4
(A) 144k ALL VIRGINS)
(B) These 144k were REDEEMED from AMONG MEN)
(C) Being FIRSTFRUITS onto God & to the Lamb.

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
(PARSING: Christ is 1st to rise/resurrected from the grave)

Matt 27:
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
(PARSING: Jesus dies)

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
(PARSING: Jesus rips the Temple veil in 1/2 on the way to paradise)

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(PARSING: Many saints are resurrected)

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
(PARSING: After Jesus rises 1st, many saints rise, REREADING Rev 14:1-4, 144k > FIRSTFRUITS, "Redeemed From Among Men")

Maria Billingsley · Friday at 8:10 AM

BrotherJJ said:
Rev 7:
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
(PARSING: 144k sealed from ALL the TRIBES of the Children of Jacob/ISRAEL.)

5 Of the tribe of Juda, Reuben & Gad .

6 Of the tribe of Aser, Nepthalim & Manassas

7 Of the tribe of Simeon, Levi & Issachar

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon, Joseph & Benjamin
(PARSING: Verses 5-8 confirm 12k ea x 12 tribes = 144,000)

Gen 32:28 God changed Jacob's name to Israel. The 12 tribes of Israel are Jacob's sons. Each son received a land portion (except Levi/Levites they become the priesthood) Joseph receives a double portion of land (Gen 48) And divides it between his 2 sons Ephraim & Manasseh.

Rev 14:
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him a 144k, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
(PARSING: These 144k were redeemed from the earth)

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
(PARSING: "Redeemed From Among Men" being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God & to the Lamb)

Parsing vs 4
(A) 144k ALL VIRGINS)
(B) These 144k were REDEEMED from AMONG MEN)
(C) Being FIRSTFRUITS onto God & to the Lamb.

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
(PARSING: Christ is 1st to rise/resurrected from the grave)

Matt 27:
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
(PARSING: Jesus dies)

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
(PARSING: Jesus rips the Temple veil in 1/2 on the way to paradise)

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(PARSING: Many saints are resurrected)

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
(PARSING: After Jesus rises 1st, many saints rise, REREADING Rev 14:1-4, 144k > FIRSTFRUITS, "Redeemed From Among Men")

The 144,000 represents, metaphorically, those clothed in white and ready to meet the Groom, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Paul begins to explain this in 2 Corinthians 11:2

"For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

It is the entire body of Christ.

Be blessed

beech10000 · Friday at 8:55 AM

The 144000 are the elect Christian saints. The church is GODS Israel, the Israel of GOD. The church is the olive tree in Romans 11 from the root to the branches. Remember the Gentiles are grafted into the olive tree, the church. The people in Hebrews 11 are the root of the olive tree in Romans 11.

BrotherJJ · Friday at 2:25 PM

Maria Billingsley said:
The 144,000 represents, metaphorically, those clothed in white and ready to meet the Groom, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Paul begins to explain this in 2 Corinthians 11:2

"For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

It is the entire body of Christ.

Be blessed

Metaphorically?
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

(PARSING: This verse cites, Tribes of Jacob = Israel & his children. Next 4 verses God breathed scripture clearly names Israel/Jacobs 12 sons/children.)

The saints that rise from the grave (after Jesus) in Matt 27:52-53 & are seen by many are OT elect.

Jesus rises then 50 days later comes the Acts 2 Pentecost, where the Church via the Holy Spirit outpouring in born. So, I don't see how 1 Cor 11:2, where Paul is speaking to believers in Corinth, is applicable to the OP.

BrotherJJ · Friday at 8:18 PM

beech10000 said:
The 144000 are the elect Christian saints. The church is GODS Israel, the Israel of GOD. The church is the olive tree in Romans 11 from the root to the branches. Remember the Gentiles are grafted into the olive tree, the church. The people in Hebrews 11 are the root of the olive tree in Romans 11.

Discussion is 144k

144k are mentioned twice in scripture. Rev 7 & 14

Rev 7:4-8 clearly says tribes of the children of Israel/Jacob & then names Jacob/Israel's sons/

Tribal identity was tracked by genealogy. The OT repeatedly shows that tribal membership is determined by physical bloodline. Rev 7 cites the literal tribal descendants of Israel/Jacob.

Num 1:18: they registered by genealogy, by families, by fathers' houses, by Tribes!

Ez 2 & Neh 7: people who could not prove their genealogy were excluded from priestly & tribal identity.

Jos divides the land by tribal inheritance, the 12 Tribes are literal bloodline families. Traced through the sons of Jacob.

Rev 7:4-8 In the context John identifies the 144k as physical descendants of Israel/Jacob.

In Rev 1:4-11 John repeatedly uses the word Church/ekklesia. He never uses church for the 144k in Rev 7 or 14.

Rev 14:4 calls the 144,000: "the firstfruits" unto God & to the Lamb.”

This language is directly lifted from the Lev 23:9-11 wave offering. They are the first portion of a larger harvest. They are set apart & presented to God.

The category itself is Israelite, because the firstfruits offering was tied to Israel's land covenant (remember each son of Israel/Jacob cited in Rev 7:4-8 received a land portion).

The Israelites practiced the firstfruits (resurrection foreshadowing) wave offering every Passover week for over 1400 yrs. John calling the 144k "firstfruits" supports their identity as literal Israelites & not the Church.

The Matt 27:52-53 verses shared, has these OT elect firstfruits that rise from the grave (after Jesus) & are seen by many.

Coming out of the grave BEFORE there is a church. Jesus rises then 50 days later comes the Acts 2 Pentecost, where the Church via the Holy Spirit outpouring in born.

Maria Billingsley · 2025-12-13T07:33:52-0600

BrotherJJ said:
Metaphorically?
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

(PARSING: This verse cites, Tribes of Jacob = Israel & his children. Next 4 verses God breathed scripture clearly names Israel/Jacobs 12 sons/children.)

The saints that rise from the grave (after Jesus) in Matt 27:52-53 & are seen by many are OT elect.

Jesus rises then 50 days later comes the Acts 2 Pentecost, where the Church via the Holy Spirit outpouring in born. So, I don't see how 1 Cor 11:2, where Paul is speaking to believers in Corinth, is applicable to the OP.

My understanding.....

Revelation uses numbers in two main ways to make symbolic points.
First, there's Biblical Numerology, which is just spotting the consistent, traditional meaning of numbers used all through the Bible. These numbers are metaphors in themselves! For example, 7 is always shorthand for perfection or divine completion, and 12 means God's people (like the 12 tribes or 12 apostles). So, when you see the 144,000, it's not a literal census count; it's a perfect symbolic team: 12 (God's people) \times 12 (completeness) \times 1,000 (fullness/vastness) = the entire, perfectly sealed number of the redeemed. That's pure symbolism!
Second, you have Gematria, which is a little different and acts more like a secret code. It's when a number is used as a numerical key to unlock the name of a person or thing. The best example is 666. To the original readers, adding up the numerical values of the Greek or Hebrew letters in "Neron Caesar" would equal 666, making it a very pointed, coded nickname for the ultimate human persecutor. So, 144,000 is a metaphor for completeness, while 666 is a code for an individual tyrant.

Rose_bud · 2025-12-13T10:44:54-0600

BrotherJJ said:
Rev 7:
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
(PARSING: 144k sealed from ALL the TRIBES of the Children of Jacob/ISRAEL.)

5 Of the tribe of Juda, Reuben & Gad .

6 Of the tribe of Aser, Nepthalim & Manassas

7 Of the tribe of Simeon, Levi & Issachar

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon, Joseph & Benjamin
(PARSING: Verses 5-8 confirm 12k ea x 12 tribes = 144,000)

Gen 32:28 God changed Jacob's name to Israel. The 12 tribes of Israel are Jacob's sons. Each son received a land portion (except Levi/Levites they become the priesthood) Joseph receives a double portion of land (Gen 48) And divides it between his 2 sons Ephraim & Manasseh.

Rev 14:
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him a 144k, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
(PARSING: These 144k were redeemed from the earth)

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
(PARSING: "Redeemed From Among Men" being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God & to the Lamb)

Parsing vs 4
(A) 144k ALL VIRGINS)
(B) These 144k were REDEEMED from AMONG MEN)
(C) Being FIRSTFRUITS onto God & to the Lamb.

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
(PARSING: Christ is 1st to rise/resurrected from the grave)

Matt 27:
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
(PARSING: Jesus dies)

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
(PARSING: Jesus rips the Temple veil in 1/2 on the way to paradise)

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(PARSING: Many saints are resurrected)

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
(PARSING: After Jesus rises 1st, many saints rise, REREADING Rev 14:1-4, 144k > FIRSTFRUITS, "Redeemed From Among Men")

Hey BrotherJJ :wave:

I like how you have connected the firstfruits to those who rose to life with Jesus.

Have you considered the connection between Rev 6 and Rev 7

9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

3Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

(DAN is missing from the list) The tribe of Dan is known as the apostate tribe... I understand that the author (John) may be revealing what is hidden. Those who are sealed are those who persevere and continue in the faith even through trials and tribulations.

After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people, and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

From this, I understand the 144000 were those of Israel who did not reject the Messiah, the prophets, etc, who died for his name...

But Paul says something profound in Hebrews 11 (bearing in mind this chapter is all about tribulation)
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

BrotherJJ · 2025-12-13T19:47:27-0600

Maria Billingsley said:
My understanding.....

Revelation uses numbers in two main ways to make symbolic points.
First, there's Biblical Numerology, which is just spotting the consistent, traditional meaning of numbers used all through the Bible. These numbers are metaphors in themselves! For example, 7 is always shorthand for perfection or divine completion, and 12 means God's people (like the 12 tribes or 12 apostles). So, when you see the 144,000, it's not a literal census count; it's a perfect symbolic team: 12 (God's people) \times 12 (completeness) \times 1,000 (fullness/vastness) = the entire, perfectly sealed number of the redeemed. That's pure symbolism!
Second, you have Gematria, which is a little different and acts more like a secret code. It's when a number is used as a numerical key to unlock the name of a person or thing. The best example is 666. To the original readers, adding up the numerical values of the Greek or Hebrew letters in "Neron Caesar" would equal 666, making it a very pointed, coded nickname for the ultimate human persecutor. So, 144,000 is a metaphor for completeness, while 666 is a code for an individual tyrant.

We agree Rev makes many symbolic points. Having said that, your reply leaves no room for any literal interpretations.

The OP made no reference to 666. So, I'll leave that rabbit hole for another discussion thread.

Literal vs symbolic scripture's examples:

This verse ALL literal
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; & every eye shall see him, & they also which pierced him: & all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen

This verse symbolic
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
(NOTE: NOT wool or snow or a flame. BUT: "like wool" "as snow" "as a flame". We must pay close attention, CONTEXT is always KEY.

Rev text often announces symbolism with phrases like: sign, like or as, I saw, having the appearance of, which represents or which is...

Examples: Rev 12:1: "A great sign appeared in heave", "a woman". Rev 13:2: The beast "was like" "a leopard". When text signals a symbol we should interpret symbolically.

In Rev, #'s tied to counts of people or time are consistently literal.

Examples: 7 churches, 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls, 42 months, 1,260 days, 12 TRIBES, 12K from each tribe etc...

Rev cites literal places. Examples: Jerusalem, Euphrates, Armageddon, Patmos, Zion etc. Unless symbolic its noted. Example: Rev 11:8. "spiritually" called Sodom & Egypt.

When Rev cites earthly judgments, they are literal. Examples: earthquakes literal, darkness literal, famine literal, plagues literal, war literal etc...

When symbolic is signaled, interpret symbolically. If not, interpret literally.

How this applies to the 144k. John gives numbers → literal tribes, literal names, literal genealogical bloodline categories. When no symbolic signal given → interpret literally!

So again I submit the 144k mentioned in Rev 7 & 14 are literal OT Israelites. Men redeemed from the earth, a firstfruits/resurrection wave soul harvest offering made unto The Father & Son. Amen

Maria Billingsley · 2025-12-13T20:42:49-0600

BrotherJJ said:
We agree Rev makes many symbolic points. Having said that, your reply leaves no room for any literal interpretations.

The OP made no reference to 666. So, I'll leave that rabbit hole for another discussion thread.

Literal vs symbolic scripture's examples:

This verse ALL literal
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; & every eye shall see him, & they also which pierced him: & all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen

This verse symbolic
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
(NOTE: NOT wool or snow or a flame. BUT: "like wool" "as snow" "as a flame". We must pay close attention, CONTEXT is always KEY.

Rev text often announces symbolism with phrases like: sign, like or as, I saw, having the appearance of, which represents or which is...

Examples: Rev 12:1: "A great sign appeared in heave", "a woman". Rev 13:2: The beast "was like" "a leopard". When text signals a symbol we should interpret symbolically.

In Rev, #'s tied to counts of people or time are consistently literal.

Examples: 7 churches, 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls, 42 months, 1,260 days, 12 TRIBES, 12K from each tribe etc...

Rev cites literal places. Examples: Jerusalem, Euphrates, Armageddon, Patmos, Zion etc. Unless symbolic its noted. Example: Rev 11:8. "spiritually" called Sodom & Egypt.

When Rev cites earthly judgments, they are literal. Examples: earthquakes literal, darkness literal, famine literal, plagues literal, war literal etc...

When symbolic is signaled, interpret symbolically. If not, interpret literally.

How this applies to the 144k. John gives numbers → literal tribes, literal names, literal genealogical bloodline categories. When no symbolic signal given → interpret literally!

So again I submit the 144k mentioned in Rev 7 & 14 are literal OT Israelites. Men redeemed from the earth, a firstfruits/resurrection wave soul harvest offering made unto The Father & Son. Amen

Apocalyptic literature is often symbolic so it is difficult if not necessary to take it literal.

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144k & Who They Are

BrotherJJ

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Maria Billingsley

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beech10000

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BrotherJJ

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BrotherJJ

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Maria Billingsley

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Rose_bud

Great is thy faithfulness, O God my Father...

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Maria Billingsley

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