Kirk Cameron Takes Heat for His Annihilationist View on Hell

JulieB67 said:

So throw out all of the scripture that points to life or death? There's nothing that suggests that everlasting shame and contempt could not point to death. That would have been the last thing placed on that person. And that would be final and everlasting.

I used to believe as you did -having been taught this doctrine. But it was scripture itself that directed me to the truth. Especially when taking the bible as a whole.

Click to expand...

You don’t need to “throw out” the life-and-death passages; death in Scripture doesn’t mean non-existence. It means separation from God, loss, ruin, and judgment. The Bible uses “death” for people who are very much conscious (Eph 2:1; 1 Tim 5:6; Luke 15:24). So, appealing to the word death doesn’t prove annihilationism.

Daniel 12:2 explicitly says:
“Many… shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting contempt.”
Everlasting contempt can’t describe a person who ceases to exist. You can’t have ongoing contempt for something that isn’t there. The parallel is clear: as long as the righteous live, the wicked remain under contempt. That is forever.
And Jesus Himself repeatedly warns of weeping, gnashing of teeth, outer darkness, fire that is not quenched, and a worm that does not die. These are not descriptions of a momentary event. These are ongoing states.

So no, Scripture taken “as a whole” doesn’t lead to annihilationism. It leads to exactly what Jesus taught:
A final judgment with eternal life for the redeemed and eternal punishment for the unrepentant.

JulieB67 said:

As does one of the most well known verses-

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Only one person gets everlasting life in that verse, the other perishes. It does not state they have everlasting "life" in hell. The wages of sin is death period.​

And Christ states that the Lake of Fire is the second "death". He still states fear the one that can destroy both body and soul in hell. Which is a second witness to the verses in Malachi on what will happen to the wicked. They will burn up, so much so that there will be neither root or branch left. They will be consumed to ashes. That's what a fire does. But I take it you're another person that doesn't believe death is really death. If one wants to believe that, one could believe anything.

Click to expand...

You’re drawing conclusions the text itself never makes.

1. “Perish” in John 3:16 doesn’t mean cease to exist.
If it did, then Luke 15:24 (“this my son was dead and is alive again”) makes no sense. The prodigal didn’t stop existing. “Perish” and “death” in Scripture overwhelmingly refer to ruin, loss, judgment, separation, not annihilation.
Jesus contrasts perishing with eternal life, not existence with non-existence.

2. “The wages of sin is death” doesn’t settle the debate.
Death is the wages, but Scripture defines death as consciousness apart from God (Eph 2:1; 1 Tim 5:6; Rev 20:14–15).
The second death is not extinction. Revelation says:
“They have no rest day or night.”
“The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever.”
Those are descriptions of ongoing existence.

3. “Destroy both body and soul” doesn’t mean annihilation.
Scripture uses “destroy” (apollymi) for things that still exist afterwards:
-Lost sheep (Luke 15:4)
-Lost coin (Luke 15:8)
-Wineskins “destroyed” but still physically there (Matt 9:17)
“Destroy” means ruin, not non-existence.

4. Malachi’s “root and branch” and “ashes” are about earthly judgment on Israel’s enemies.
It’s imagery, not a systematic doctrine of final judgment. Jesus, who gives the final word, describes hell as:
“their worm does not die”
“the fire is not quenched”
“weeping and gnashing of teeth”
None of that fits annihilation.

5. Your argument assumes that ‘death must mean extinction,’ but Scripture repeatedly uses the word in ways that do NOT mean extinction.
If your definition of death collapses in dozens of texts, it your definition, not the Bible, that is flawed.

You accuse others of believing “death isn’t really death,” but you’re doing the same thing: picking one meaning of a word and forcing the whole Bible to bow to it. Jesus’ own descriptions of hell contradict your interpretation.

Ultimately, the question is simple:
Do we interpret Jesus through Malachi, or Malachi through Jesus? I’ll go with Jesus.

Here is another interesting thing:

Mark 9:48 — “their worm does not die”​

Many people assume “worm” means literal maggots. But Jesus says their worm, it belongs to them. It’s personal.
This echoes Psalm 22:6, where the suffering one says, “I am a worm and not a man.”
In Scripture, worm can refer to a person reduced to absolute humiliation, shame, and scorn, (It is like they are scum) not a literal insect that slithers in the ground.
So, in Mark 9:48, the “worm” is best understood as the person themselves, in a state of unending disgrace and conscious ruin. They are the worm, not because they cease to exist, but because they exist in everlasting contempt (Dan 12:2).
That fits Jesus’ warning:
-the worm does not die
-the fire is not quenched
Nothing here suggests annihilation. Everything fits ongoing judgment.

JulieB67 said:

Our Father has a brand of justice, his eternal consuming fire has wiped out cities, etc. But those fires are not still burning at this moment. They are unquenchable by our standards but it does not mean they will not burn out. They served their purpose as will the Lake of Fire. Afterwards the former things will pass away and he will make all things new.

Click to expand...

Yes, the fires that judged cities in the Old Testament accomplished their purpose and were temporal. But the Lake of Fire is different. It's the final, eternal judgment, not just a tool for correction. Revelation repeatedly emphasizes its unending, conscious nature:
Rev 14:11 — “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night”
Rev 20:10 — “they will be tormented day and night forever and ever”
These are not temporary purifying fires; they are conscious, eternal judgment for the unrepentant.

JulieB67 said:

What are your views on unbelievers from another religion? Will they burn for an eternity?

Click to expand...

Regarding unbelievers from other religions: Scripture teaches that all who reject Christ, whether Jew, Gentile, or from another faith, face the same judgment. Salvation is through Christ alone (John 14:6; Acts 4:12). It is not hatred or prejudice, but the consequence of rejecting God’s mercy and the only provision for salvation.
God’s holiness is infinite. He cannot overlook sin, no matter who commits it, and His justice requires judgment. Yet His mercy is equally real: He has provided a way through Christ. Those who knowingly reject that way are responsible for the eternal consequences.

(Enjoying the discussion by the way. This is fun stuff)

Respect the One who can destroy both flesh and spirit

1Tonne said:

ou don’t need to “throw out” the life-and-death passages; death in Scripture doesn’t mean non-existence. It means separation from God, loss, ruin, and judgment. The Bible uses “death” for people who are very much conscious (Eph 2:1; 1 Tim 5:6; Luke 15:24). So, appealing to the word death doesn’t prove annihilationism.

Click to expand...

Sorry but in context those scriptures have no connection to what you speak

timothyu said:

Sorry but in context those scriptures have no connection to what you speak

Click to expand...

You’re correct that the contexts differ, but the point is linguistic and theological, not narrative. Scripture repeatedly uses “death” metaphorically to describe spiritual ruin or separation from God, not mere non-existence:

-Ephesians 2:1 - “And you were dead in your trespasses and sins.”
Paul is speaking of conscious spiritual state, not annihilation.
-1 Timothy 5:6 - “But she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives.”
Clearly alive physically, yet described as dead, showing death can refer to ruin, not nonexistence.
-Luke 15:24 - “This my son was dead and is alive again.”
The prodigal didn’t stop existing, death here is spiritual or relational, not annihilation.

The pattern across Scripture shows death is often a conscious, experiential state. That’s why these verses are relevant, they illustrate how the Bible uses the language of death for the spiritually condemned, which aligns with understanding eternal punishment as conscious.

1Tonne said:

fire that is not quenched, and a worm that does not die. These are not descriptions of a momentary event. These are ongoing states.

Click to expand...

Again, unquenchable by human standards. But God's eternal fire did not last forever in the OT. They are set as our example. Jesus used Gehenna as example because that's where stuff was thrown into. It continually burned and that's what will happen with the LOF but it doesn't mean that things will not be destroyed. Christ states fear the one that can destroy (first meaning -fully) both body and soul in hell.

1Tonne said:

4. Malachi’s “root and branch” and “ashes” are about earthly judgment on Israel’s enemies.

Click to expand...

Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave then neither root nor branch."

1Tonne said:

Regarding unbelievers from other religions: Scripture teaches that all who reject Christ, whether Jew, Gentile, or from another faith, face the same judgment.

Click to expand...

So someone like Anne Frank will burn for an eternity, gotcha!

1Tonne said:

; death in Scripture doesn’t mean non-existence.

Click to expand...

There's a reason that Christ calls it the "second" death. You are confusing earthly death with the second death which is to destroy both body and soul.

1Tonne said:

1. “Perish” in John 3:16 doesn’t mean cease to exist.

Click to expand...

Context matters. We should always take the first meaning unless the verse indicates otherwise. All of the verses that contrast life verses death should give us the meaning that only one gets life in that equation.

1Tonne said:

but Scripture defines death as consciousness apart from God (Eph 2:1; 1 Tim 5:6; Rev 20:14–15).

Click to expand...

I will take Christ's words for his teaching on what is destroyed in hell. And the fact that he calls it the "second" death. Paul also calls it everlasting destruction.

1Tonne said:

“The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever.”

Click to expand...

Yes, I'm sure the smoke does rise of forever and ever. Which doesn't always mean an eternity. Sometimes when forever is used it's regarding that particular thing or person.

1Tonne said:

, not just a tool for correction

Click to expand...

I never stated such a thing. It is the second death as Christ states.

"Paul is speaking of conscious spiritual state" (from above)
If people alive on earth were actually 'dead' in their 'conscious spiritual state' then they wouldn't be 'alive'.

Romans 6:3 "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for the one who has died is freed from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all time; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 So you too, consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus'

The Eternal Tormentist believes Death means a persons spirit is dead even while they are alive, and they also believe spirits will be made alive again so they can endure eternal torment!

It doesnt make sense that sinners 'actually' have a dead spirit, but can be alive and talk, and sin. And then if they dont repent they are made alive again so they can suffer eternally.

And so how does a believer repent and die with Christ if they were already dead?
Romans 6:8 'Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him'
The unbeliever, according to tradition was born dead, or died at some point, so how can it be said the person died with Christ?
Wouldn't that make them a believer, or what? It is a false idea that Adam and Eve died 'spiritually' because it does not say that in scripture, they were under the judgement of death and they did actually die. And they too will face the second death if they aren't born again, like everyone else must be. The Second death is the Second death, not the third, and it is death - a Conditionalist believes death means death - not death means alive.

The Conditionalist believes a real 'death' will actually happen, both of the spirit and the body, after their punishment, and according to their sins. Everybody will actually die physically and spiritually.
Death is not a metaphor for being alive - that is ridiculous. Death is a judgment - so consider yourselves dead to sin, and the unbeliever dead in their sins - it is the same as the dead man walking - we were all condemned to die, facing death of body and soul.

The NT eternal (Aionions, Olam) references are from the OT, Isaiah quotes and such, and the smoke of Edom eventually went out, they are no more... where the scriptures predominately speak of total destruction, blotting out, as water goes into ground, over and over God says He will wipe them away. And fire means fire, it destroys everything, historically everyone knows that, otherwise he could have used some other metaphor. It does not say humans survive the lake of Fire, only the Angels there, bcse man is not immortal.

JulieB67 said:

Again, unquenchable by human standards. But God's eternal fire did not last forever in the OT. They are set as our example. Jesus used Gehenna as example because that's where stuff was thrown into. It continually burned and that's what will happen with the LOF but it doesn't mean that things will not be destroyed. Christ states fear the one that can destroy (first meaning -fully) both body and soul in hell.

Click to expand...

If the wicked are burned to nothing, then the language of ongoing torment makes no sense. Scripture repeatedly emphasizes conscious, eternal punishment:
* Mark 9:48, “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”
Here, the “worm” is the person themselves, reduced to utter shame and contempt. This parallels Psalm 22:6, where the psalmist says, “I am a worm and not a man,” meaning he is utterly scorned. The text shows that the person exists in a state of ongoing ruin, they are the worm.
* Revelation 14:11 — “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night.”
* Revelation 20:10 — “they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

The Lake of Fire is called the second death, but Scripture consistently shows that death is conscious ruin and separation from God (Eph 2:1; 1 Tim 5:6), not extinction. If people simply ceased to exist, Christ’s warnings about weeping, gnashing of teeth, and fear of the One who can destroy both body and soul would be meaningless.

In short, the Bible presents the Lake of Fire as a place of ongoing, conscious punishment, with the wicked themselves enduring it, they are the worm, the object of God’s righteous judgment, not extinguished into nothing.

JulieB67 said:

Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave then neither root nor branch."

Click to expand...

Malachi 4:1 is describing temporal, symbolic judgment, not the eternal Lake of Fire. The imagery of stubble being burned up emphasizes complete ruin and loss, not annihilation. God often uses vivid pictures in the prophets to show the utter defeat and destruction of the wicked’s power, influence, and earthly life.

Compare that to Jesus’ teaching about the Lake of Fire:
-Mark 9:48 — “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.” The worm is the person themselves, echoing Psalm 22:6 — they exist in a state of utter shame and contempt, not destroyed into nothing.
-Revelation 14:11 — “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night.”
-Revelation 20:10 — “they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

Malachi speaks of temporal judgment on nations or people, often fulfilled in historical events, where stubble is consumed as a metaphor of destruction. Jesus and John describe eternal judgment, conscious and ongoing. The prophetic imagery of being “burned up” does not contradict the clear, literal teaching of the New Testament about eternal conscious punishment.

In short: Malachi illustrates ruin; Revelation and Christ reveal eternal conscious judgment. One is temporal imagery, the other is literal and final.

JulieB67 said:

There's a reason that Christ calls it the "second" death. You are confusing earthly death with the second death which is to destroy both body and soul.

Click to expand...

Actually, it’s you who seems to be confusing the two. A person is a soul with a shell, which is the body.
When our physical body dies, it is not the end of the person. The soul sleeps in the ground and so is still alive. Earthly death is not a finality which is how you view it. Viewing it as such is a misunderstanding.
The Bible repeatedly shows that when people die, they go into the grave in an unconscious state:
-Ecclesiastes 9:5 — “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing…”
-Psalm 146:4 — “…in that very day his thoughts perish.”

The dead are asleep in the grave, knowing nothing, until the resurrection on the last day (John 5:28–29; Daniel 12:2). At that time, God raises all people, believers and unbelievers, for judgment. Just as the first death does not annihilate the person, the second death does not annihilate them either. Viewing death purely as the physical end of the shell of the person leads to misunderstanding.

In short, earthly death is only the end of the shell, the physical body, not the person. The soul continues asleep until the resurrection. The second death is eternal, conscious, and the final state of judgment. Confusing the two obscures the true nature of God’s justice and the eternal consequences of rejecting Him.

JulieB67 said:

Context matters. We should always take the first meaning unless the verse indicates otherwise. All of the verses that contrast life verses death should give us the meaning that only one gets life in that equation.

Click to expand...

The context of John 3:16 is spiritual life versus spiritual ruin, not physical existence. Scripture repeatedly uses “death” or “perish” to mean separation from God, loss, or ruin (Eccl 9:5; Ps 146:4; Eph 2:1). So “perish” here does not imply ceasing to exist, but failing to receive eternal life.

1Tonne said:

You’re correct that the contexts differ, but the point is linguistic and theological, not narrative. Scripture repeatedly uses “death” metaphorically to describe spiritual ruin or separation from God, not mere non-existence:

Click to expand...

Then the point only serves man's religion and not God. People often confuse the two forms of Christianity.

1Tonne said:

f the wicked are burned to nothing, then the language of ongoing torment makes no sense. Scripture repeatedly emphasizes conscious, eternal punishment:
* Mark 9:48, “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”

Click to expand...

Again, Jesus is using an analogy here with Gehenna and the fires that were kept going. The Lake of Fire will keep going as well until everything is consumed.

There should still be no question as to what Christ means in Matthew 10:28 which aligns with every verse in the Bible about what will happen to the wicked.

1Tonne said:

If the wicked are burned to nothing,

Click to expand...

There's no if about it. They will be turned to ashes.

1Tonne said:

but Scripture consistently shows that death is conscious ruin and separation from God (Eph 2:1; 1 Tim 5:6), not extinction.

Click to expand...

Those verses point to the fact that if that's their final state than yes, they would suffer the second death.

1Tonne said:

The text shows that the person exists in a state of ongoing ruin,

Click to expand...

We cannot throw out texts like these-

Psalms 37:10 "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: Yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."

Proverbs 24:20 "For there shall be no reward to the evil man; The candle of the wicked shall be put out."

Psalms 37:38 "But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: The end of the wicked shall be cut off."


Psalms 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, And the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

Psalms 92:7 "When the wicked spring as the grass, And when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; It is that they shall be destroyed for ever:


Philippians 3:19 "Whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)"


II Thessalonians 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

II Peter 2:12 "But these, as natural brute beasts made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not, and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;"

The Greek is pretty clear that means fully destroy.

We are given the example of God's eternal fire in what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah-


Jude 7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

1Tonne said:

The imagery

Click to expand...

Imagery? Symbolic judgement?

I don't think our Father can be anymore clear-


Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave then neither root nor branch."

Matthew 3:12 "Whose fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

That's what a fire does. We saw what his eternal fire did in the OT and was told that is set for our example.

1Tonne said:

When our physical body dies, it is not the end of the person

Click to expand...

Not at that point no. But at Judgement Day and the Lake of Fire, they will suffer the second death.

1Tonne said:

. Earthly death is not a finality which is how you view it. Viewing it as such is a misunderstanding.

Click to expand...

I never stated the earthly death was a finality. I stated the second death was.

1Tonne said:

s spiritual life versus spiritual ruin,

Click to expand...

Yet that's not what the verse states. It's life or perish. Only one person gets everlasting life. So in contrast, it would be destroyed, death, destruction. You can't insert ruin when the context doesn't point to that. You are in fact stating that both have eternal life. And that's not what the verse states.

zelosravioli said:

The NT eternal (Aionions, Olam) references are from the OT, Isaiah quotes and such, and the smoke of Edom eventually went out, they are no more... where the scriptures predominately speak of total destruction, blotting out, as water goes into ground, over and over God says He will wipe them away. And fire means fire, it destroys everything, historically everyone knows that, otherwise he could have used some other metaphor.

Click to expand...

Exactly

JulieB67 said:

We cannot throw out texts like these-

Psalms 37:10 "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: Yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."

Proverbs 24:20 "For there shall be no reward to the evil man; The candle of the wicked shall be put out."

Psalms 37:38 "But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: The end of the wicked shall be cut off."


Psalms 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, And the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

Psalms 92:7 "When the wicked spring as the grass, And when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; It is that they shall be destroyed for ever:


Philippians 3:19 "Whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)"


II Thessalonians 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

II Peter 2:12 "But these, as natural brute beasts made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not, and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;"

The Greek is pretty clear that means fully destroy.

We are given the example of God's eternal fire in what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah-


Jude 7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Click to expand...

All those passages use the language of destruction, cutting off, and perishing, but none of them require non-existence. In Scripture, “destroy” often means ruin, defeat, or loss, not annihilation:
-Israel is said to be “destroyed” yet clearly still exists (Hos 13:9).
-The prodigal son was “dead” (destroyed) yet fully conscious (Luke 15:24).
-Believers were “dead in sins” (Eph 2:1), but not nonexistent.

“Destruction” in biblical language describes the condition of the wicked, not their disappearance.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 actually supports this: “everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.”
You cannot be away from God’s presence if you no longer exist. That’s a state, not annihilation.

And Jude 7 doesn't teach annihilation either. Sodom isn’t still burning today, yet Jude calls it an example of eternal fire. The fire is eternal, not because the fuel burns forever, but because the judgment is eternal in its effect, just as Hebrews 6:2 speaks of “eternal judgment.”

The OT “destroy” passages describe the certainty and completeness of God’s judgment, not the end of conscious existence.
So none of those texts overturn the clear New Testament statements of ongoing, conscious consequences (“their worm does not die,” “the smoke of their torment goes up forever,” Rev 14:11).

Here are some questions:

1. If “destroy” means non-existence, how can people be “destroyed” yet still exist?​

Hosea 13:9 “O Israel, you are destroyed, but in Me is your help.”
Israel still existed afterwards.
Question: If “destroyed” here doesn’t mean annihilation, why must it mean annihilation in the passages you quoted?

​

2. How can someone be “dead” yet conscious?​

Luke 15:24 “This my son was dead and is alive again.”
Ephesians 2:1 “You were dead in your trespasses.”
Both “dead” persons were conscious.
Question: If biblical “death” can mean ruin, not non-existence, why assume “second death” means extinction?

3. How can people be “away from the presence of the Lord” (2 Thess 1:9) if they no longer exist?​

Non-existence has no experience, no location, no duration.
Question: How can the wicked be punished with “everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord” if they are annihilated and no longer present anywhere?

4. Why does Jesus describe an ongoing state, not an event?​

Mark 9:48 “Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”
This is duration, not extinction.
Question: If the person ceases to exist, whose worm is still not dying?

5. Why does Revelation describe ongoing torment if annihilation is true?​

Revelation 14:11 “The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever… they have no rest day or night.”
Question: If they are annihilated instantly, how can there be “no rest day or night”? Rest from what?

6. Why does Revelation 20:10 say the devil is tormented “day and night forever and ever,” then place humans in the same fate?​

The beast and false prophet are still in the fire 1,000 years later.
Question: If the lake of fire instantly annihilates, how are they still there alive after 1,000 years?

7. Why does Daniel 12:2 contrast eternal life with eternal shame/contempt, not eternal non-existence?​

People cannot feel shame or contempt if they don’t exist.
Question: If the wicked are annihilated, how can they experience “eternal contempt”?

8. How can “eternal fire” in Jude 7 refer to annihilation when Jude applies it to a past event?​

Jude 7. Sodom is an example of “eternal fire.”
The fire isn’t still burning, but the judgment is eternal.
Question: If “eternal fire” means annihilation, why does Jude use it for a judgment whose effects, not the flames, are eternal?

9. Why does Jesus warn about “weeping and gnashing of teeth” if annihilation is instant?​

This is ongoing consciousness and regret.
Question: How can a destroyed, nonexistent person weep or gnash their teeth?

10. Why does Jesus say the punishment is “eternal,” not the fire?​

Matthew 25:46 “Eternal punishment” (κόλασις αἰώνιος).
Not “punishment for a moment followed by non-existence.”
Question: Why does Jesus parallel eternal life and eternal punishment if one side is conscious and the other is not?

1Tonne said:

* Mark 9:48, “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”
Here, the “worm” is the person themselves, reduced to utter shame and contempt. This parallels Psalm 22:6, where the psalmist says, “I am a worm and not a man,” meaning he is utterly scorned. The text shows that the person exists in a state of ongoing ruin, they are the worm.

Click to expand...

The worm is not the person. You are taking it out of context with Psalm 22:6.

1Tonne said:

Actually, it’s you who seems to be confusing the two. A person is a soul with a shell, which is the body.
When our physical body dies, it is not the end of the person. The soul sleeps in the ground and so is still alive. Earthly death is not a finality which is how you view it. Viewing it as such is a misunderstanding.
The Bible repeatedly shows that when people die, they go into the grave in an unconscious state:
-Ecclesiastes 9:5 — “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing…”
-Psalm 146:4 — “…in that very day his thoughts perish.”

The dead are asleep in the grave, knowing nothing, until the resurrection on the last day (John 5:28–29; Daniel 12:2). At that time, God raises all people, believers and unbelievers, for judgment. Just as the first death does not annihilate the person, the second death does not annihilate them either. Viewing death purely as the physical end of the shell of the person leads to misunderstanding.

In short, earthly death is only the end of the shell, the physical body, not the person. The soul continues asleep until the resurrection. The second death is eternal, conscious, and the final state of judgment. Confusing the two obscures the true nature of God’s justice and the eternal consequences of rejecting Him.

Click to expand...

There are 2 births and 2 deaths. A physical birth and a physical death (which we all must possess). A spiritual birth and for some, a spiritual death. The first death destroys the body. What does the second death do...hmmm? Eternal life vs eternal death. Choose life!

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

The worm is not the person. You are taking it out of context with Psalm 22:6.

Click to expand...

Actually, the context supports the interpretation. In Mark 9:48, Jesus quotes Isaiah 66:24, describing the wicked in a state of shame and ruin: “their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”
The “worm” is possessive, their worm, which implies it belongs to them. It is not literal maggots; it represents the person themselves in a state of ongoing contempt and humiliation. This is consistent with Psalm 22:6, where the psalmist says, “I am a worm and not a man,” expressing extreme shame and lowliness.
So the Bible’s own imagery shows that the “worm” represents the person in judgment, not something external or separate from them.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

There are 2 births and 2 deaths. A physical birth and a physical death (which we all must possess). A spiritual birth and for some, a spiritual death. The first death destroys the body. What does the second death do...hmmm? Eternal life vs eternal death. Choose life!

Click to expand...

Yes, there are two births and two deaths, but that does not change the fact that the second death is not annihilation.
The first death ends the physical body, but the soul continues asleep in the grave (Eccl 9:5; Ps 146:4) until the resurrection (John 5:28–29; Daniel 12:2). The second death is spiritual and eternal, the conscious punishment of those who reject God.
It is called “death” to show its ruin and separation from God, not to indicate that the person ceases to exist. Just as the first death does not destroy the person, the second death does not either, it is a state of eternal conscious judgment, not extinction.

So, the choice to “choose life” is truly about eternal conscious life with God versus eternal conscious separation from God, not life versus nonexistence.

1Tonne said:

Actually, the context supports the interpretation. In Mark 9:48, Jesus quotes Isaiah 66:24, describing the wicked in a state of shame and ruin: “their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”
The “worm” is possessive, their worm, which implies it belongs to them. It is not literal maggots; it represents the person themselves in a state of ongoing contempt and humiliation. This is consistent with Psalm 22:6, where the psalmist says, “I am a worm and not a man,” expressing extreme shame and lowliness.
So the Bible’s own imagery shows that the “worm” represents the person in judgment, not something external or separate from them.

Yes, there are two births and two deaths, but that does not change the fact that the second death is not annihilation.
The first death ends the physical body, but the soul continues asleep in the grave (Eccl 9:5; Ps 146:4) until the resurrection (John 5:28–29; Daniel 12:2). The second death is spiritual and eternal, the conscious punishment of those who reject God.
It is called “death” to show its ruin and separation from God, not to indicate that the person ceases to exist. Just as the first death does not destroy the person, the second death does not either, it is a state of eternal conscious judgment, not extinction.

So, the choice to “choose life” is truly about eternal conscious life with God versus eternal conscious separation from God, not life versus nonexistence.

Click to expand...

No it doesn't. It says THEIR worm. ὅπου ὁ σκώληξ αὐτῶν οὐ τελευτᾷ καὶ τὸ πῦρ οὐ σβέννυται· Not a person but that person's worm. This is in contrast to Psalm 22 where he is calling himself a worm. וְאָנֹכִי תוֹלַעַת וְלֹא-אִישׁ; חֶרְפַּת אָדָם, וּבְזוּי עָם. When you die and are buried you are eaten by worms, nothing left but bones. That is what is being described here. You are completely taking it out of context and forcing it into your narrative! The first death ends the physical body. But the second death does not end the spiritual body? Eternal life vs...?

1Tonne said:

Question: If “destroyed” here doesn’t mean annihilation, why must it mean annihilation in the passages you quoted?

Click to expand...

Because context matters. We should go with the first definition unless the verse dictates otherwise. It wouldn't make sense for Christ to call it the second death if it was not exactly that. I know to you that means nothing but it totally coincides with his teaching in Matthew 10:28. Christ states fear the one that can destroy (fully in the Greek) both body and soul in hell. When we coincide these with the verses in Malachi, our example of Sodom and Gomorrah, we can see that God will totally wipe out the wicked. When we know these facts than we can see that the words torment and forever, etc are used accordingly to the specific time it will take to get this done. But God is very clear that the former things will be destroyed and all things will be made new.

1Tonne said:

Both “dead” persons were conscious.
Question: If biblical “death” can mean ruin, not non-existence, why assume “second death” means extinction?

Click to expand...

Because we aren't talking about Judgement Day and the second death and the Lake of Fire. Context truly matters.

1Tonne said:

How can the wicked be punished with “everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord”

Click to expand...

Being destroyed would remove you from the presence of the Lord.

1Tonne said:

Question: If the person ceases to exist, whose worm is still not dying?

Click to expand...

This is one of the biggest signs that death has taken place. Christ again is just setting the example. Maggots produce and eat from and on dead bodies, not live ones. Again, Gehenna is promoting death. It's a garbage pit that burns continually with maggots feasting on everything. But anything thrown in to that valley is not living or alive other than the maggots and other thing likely feasting on the dead.



T

1Tonne said:

Question: If they are annihilated instantly, how can there be “no rest day or night”? Rest from what?

Click to expand...

I don't think it's at that time they are annihilated. I believe it's after the 1000 years at Judgement Day.

1Tonne said:

Question: If the lake of fire instantly annihilates, how are they still there alive after 1,000 years?

Click to expand...

It doesn't necessarily mean they are alive. Both death and hell are thrown into the Lake of Fire in the end. When it has served it's purpose it will be then a "former thing that has passed away"

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."

Those are promises.

1Tonne said:

Question: If the wicked are annihilated, how can they experience “eternal contempt”?

Click to expand...

Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

I already said that shame and everlasting contempt can point to death. When someone experiences the death penalty, that person will always have that shame and contempt on him.

1Tonne said:

Question: If “eternal fire” means annihilation, why does Jude use it for a judgment whose effects, not the flames, are eternal?

Click to expand...

I think the verse speaks for itself as I posted. It was set for an example to us


Jude 7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

God's eternal fire consumes.


II Peter 2:6 "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

That's what's going to happen to the wicked. That is our example. His eternal fire (unquenchable by human hands) turned them into ashes which is set for an example unto those that should live ungodly.

1Tonne said:

Question: How can a destroyed, nonexistent person weep or gnash their teeth?

Click to expand...

I'm sure there will be gnashing of teeth and weeping during the 1000 years and at the end

Psalms 112:10 "The wicked shall see it, and be grieved ;He shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: The desire of the wicked shall perish."

1Tonne said:

Question: Why does Jesus parallel eternal life and eternal punishment if one side is conscious and the other is not?

Click to expand...

Death is punishment. Always has been.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

When you die and are buried you are eaten by worms, nothing left but bones. That is what is being described here

Click to expand...

Exactly

I often recommend this video when this kind of topic comes up. Steve Gregg has been an expository Bible teacher for decades. In this lecture he doesn't teach one view over another, but goes through all three of them. For anyone who wants to sit through it. He covers most of what's been brought up in this thread.

JulieB67 said:

Exactly

Click to expand...

In this case...ashes from cremation

"If the wicked are burned to nothing, then the language of ongoing torment makes no sense. Scripture repeatedly emphasizes conscious, eternal punishment: (1Tonne)

There is nothing in mark 9:48 that mentions 'ongoing torment'.
You are reading 'ongoing torment' into Mark 9:48, as well as other verses.

Mark 9:48, “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.” (1Tonne)

Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24...

Isaiah 66:24 "Then they will go out and look at the corpses of the people who have rebelled against Me. For their worm will not die. And their fire will not be extinguished; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind”
"Here, the “worm” is the person themselves, reduced to utter shame and contempt" (1Tonne)

The people are eating the people in Isaiah? And so Jesus is using a metaphor within a metaphor?

This parallels Psalm 22:6, where the psalmist says, “I am a worm and not a man,” meaning he is utterly scorned. The text shows that the person exists in a state of ongoing ruin, they are the worm. (1Tonne)

The parallel is Isaiah 66, the people walk by and see dead corpses 'and' worms. Not corpses eating corpses.
The worms and corpses speak of destruction, as any observer would note, it's an obvious and historical REALITY of DEATH.
If God wanted to use a metaphor, or such, to denote 'continual conscious torment' God would have not have used something so indicative of 'sure absolute destruction - like fire and worms. Its like saying 'they will be eternally hungry like men sitting eating at a table' (!?)
God is the Eternal Fire, fire speaks of His Judgements which are eternal, there are no immortal worms...