Trump’s team sees Europe’s ‘erasure.’

rjs330 · Wednesday at 3:17 PM

Nithavela said:
Just a distraction maneuver to get people to not talk about war crimes or the abysmal US economy.

Sweep in front of your own door.

The economy is not abysmal. When Biden was in office it was abysmal with inflation as high as 18%. So far during Trump its down. I think the egg prices have come down as well as gas is being seen with prices below $3 in places. Its getting better. And if some of the plans ive heard about come to fruition it will get even better. Biden jacked up prices so high that 3% inflation raises prices above that which makes it seem worse. We don't want deflation. That would br very bad.

wing2000 · Wednesday at 8:58 PM

Landon Caeli said:
Oh, yes we are talking right now, in America. About your "EU", and we're beginning to wonder who's the bigger threat... Russia, China, or the EU.

The only participant on this thread having such thoughts is you, apparently.

Landon Caeli · 2025-12-11T01:45:49-0600

FAITH-IN-HIM said:
What is unusual about this thread is that, twenty years ago, when I used to debate with Democrats and liberals, they often held similar views. I never imagined that one day I would be debating these topics with registered Republicans.

I'm actually a registered democrat, who happens to be a die-hard Trump supporter.

mindlight · 2025-12-11T07:00:44-0600

ThatRobGuy said:
I realize the Brexit thing of 2020 kneecapped it.

I guess I should've added the disclaimer (**if they could get the UK back into the fold in a perfect world scenario).

The idea I was conveying was that if Europe is going to band together and collectively tackle issues, having the HQ in a place that would likely be shouldering larger shares of certain "burdens" makes sense so that representatives from those nations are closer by the operations. Any security agreements would obviously disproportionately fall on the Brits (if Brexit hadn't occurred), and any sort of financial backing/bailouts would fall on the Germans.

I don't think it's any coincidence that the place that happened to be the HQ ended up being one of the larger net beneficiaries.

View attachment 374293

Or the other option would be to stick it in a neutral spot like Geneva Switzerland (a place with a long history of playing host to neutral summits and diplomatic discussions, and that doesn't have a dog in the fight)

Your graph is interesting but it seems you have misunderstood it. The big four nations and minor successful nations are net contributors mainly because they are richer than the rest. Belgium is not as successful as the Netherlands and so its economy needs net support as does most of Eastern Europe which is still playing catch up with the West after the catastrophe of Communist rule. The EU redistributes wealth from rich to poor via this donation system but the strength of German manufacturing coupled with an exchange rate that is deflated for German manufacturers by being in a club with weaker nations means that Germans have a massive trade surplus with Europe and so get a lot of their money back that way. That said Belgium is not pulling its weight as it is richer than most East European beneficiaries

FAITH-IN-HIM · 2025-12-11T07:10:20-0600

Landon Caeli said:
I'm actually a registered democrat, who happens to be a die-hard Trump supporter.

Now it makes sense why your foreign policy views align with many of the Democrats I knew back in the '90s. They shared similar perspectives on foreign policy as you do.

I am a conservative, but not MAGA! The conservatism I believe ended the day Mitt Romney lost the 2012 election!

Aryeh Jay · 2025-12-11T07:44:30-0600

FAITH-IN-HIM said:
Now it makes sense why your foreign policy views align with many of the Democrats I knew back in the '90s. They shared similar perspectives on foreign policy as you do.

I am a conservative, but not MAGA! The conservatism I believe ended the day Mitt Romney lost the 2012 election!

Welcome to the Redheaded step child table.

ThatRobGuy · 2025-12-11T08:03:01-0600

mindlight said:
Your graph is interesting but it seems you have misunderstood it. The big four nations and minor successful nations are net contributors mainly because they are richer than the rest. Belgium is not as successful as the Netherlands and so its economy needs net support as does most of Eastern Europe which is still playing catch up with the West after the catastrophe of Communist rule. The EU redistributes wealth from rich to poor via this donation system but the strength of German manufacturing coupled with an exchange rate that is deflated for German manufacturers by being in a club with weaker nations means that Germans have a massive trade surplus with Europe and so get a lot of their money back that way. That said Belgium is not pulling its weight as it is richer than most East European beneficiaries

But that would still dovetail into what I was saying... You mentioned that Belgium isn't pulling their weight. Them being in that cushy situation of being able to "phone it in" while still getting some handsome receipts from the arrangement would almost certainly be, in some part, due to their proximity to the nucleus of the whole operation I would think.

In some ways, I view it sorta the same way I view the Stock Exchange and de facto "seat" of the US finance sector being in NYC. It makes sense of for that stuff to be HQ'd "where the action is".

If all the major players in the banking and investment scene are in NYC (along with the most influential branch of the Federal Reserve), it wouldn't make sense to try to prop up the Stock Exchange over in Topeka Kansas.

And undoubtedly, if that were to occur, some "small potatoes" organizations in Topeka would most certainly have some outsized influence that they otherwise wouldn't have. And practically speaking, when it comes to big changes that could have more sweeping impacts in the finance sector, it makes more sense for JP Morgan and Citi bank to have better proximity access than it would for Topeka Savings and Loan.

Landon Caeli · 2025-12-11T10:48:18-0600

FAITH-IN-HIM said:
I am a conservative, but not MAGA!

I am a liberal, but not a WOKO!

...Never got drunk on the toxic empathy.

FAITH-IN-HIM · 2025-12-11T10:57:46-0600

Landon Caeli said:
I am a liberal, but not a WOKO!

...Never got drunk on the toxic empathy.

As a traditional conservative, I don't really understand what this "woke" thing is all about, whether people support it or oppose it.

For example, I find it difficult to understand certain liberals who, in the name of being "woke," appear to suppress free speech. Conversely, I also struggle to comprehend members of the anti-woke group who believe that having the First Amendment allows them to disregard proper etiquette and behave disrespectfully toward others.

Landon Caeli · 2025-12-11T11:04:05-0600

FAITH-IN-HIM said:
As a traditional conservative, I don't really understand what this "woke" thing is all about, whether people support it or oppose it.

For example, I find it difficult to understand certain liberals who, in the name of being "woke," appear to suppress free speech. Conversely, I also struggle to comprehend members of the anti-woke group who believe that having the First Amendment allows them to disregard proper etiquette and behave disrespectfully toward others.

Allowing untramelled migration is also a branch off the woke tree. It has a lot of nasty branches, all stemming from a very *toxic* form of empathy. Other branches include supporting terrorists and even turning a blind eye towards welcoming them in, backing dictatorships, reverse racism, and rooting for the enemy out of "compassion"...

European politics seem to align with all of this, and may even be the source of it through media infiltration from the inside out. A covert tactic perhaps? Or maybe the result of intercommunication altogether in a more connected world, who all seem to speak our language. Maybe all these things.

Stopped_lurking · 2025-12-11T11:18:23-0600

Landon Caeli said:
Allowing untramelled migration is also a branch off the woke tree. It has a lot of nasty branches, all stemming from a very *toxic* form of empathy. Other branches include supporting terrorists and even turning a blind eye towards welcoming them in, backing dictatorships, reverse racism, and rooting for the enemy out of "compassion"...

European politics seem to align with all of this, and may even be the source of it through media infiltration from the inside out. A covert tactic perhaps? Or maybe the result of intercommunication altogether in a more connected world, who all seem to speak our language. Maybe all these things.

Could you please break that down per country so that I can get to what you are talking about? What does even untramelled mean? What countries support terrorists or turn a blind eye of welcoming them in? What countries in Europe back dictatorships?

What do you mean with European politics?

Edited to add!
Untramelled seems to mean unrestricted, what country in Europe have ever had unrestricted immigration? Not Sweden at least.

Landon Caeli · 2025-12-11T12:15:59-0600

Stopped_lurking said:
Could you please break that down per country so that I can get to what you are talking about? What does even untramelled mean? What countries support terrorists or turn a blind eye of welcoming them in? What countries in Europe back dictatorships?

What do you mean with European politics?

Edited to add!
Untramelled seems to mean unrestricted, what country in Europe have ever had unrestricted immigration? Not Sweden at least.

When you ask me to break down which countries I'm talking about specifically, that means I'll be restricted to talking about "policy", per government, and not the changing sentiments of the Euroean people's. There's no way I'd be willing to baracade myself into a narrow conversation like that. Especially not when people are the ones who change policy over time.

We can see how wokism, amongst the people, have already changed the face of the democratic party, here in the United States, in the most drastic of ways.

Instead, I would prefer to focus on the root of all political change within a democratic society, which is the people themselves. I'm sure we can all see in our countries how opinions have evolved, and how politics follows. I'm sure we can all see how we're now communicating across the Atlantic.

...So we should all be paying close attention, and if people from across the Atlantic are forming political alliances with people here in the U.S., this should be noted, and understood.

FAITH-IN-HIM · 2025-12-11T12:24:41-0600

Landon Caeli said:
Allowing untramelled migration is also a branch off the woke tree. It has a lot of nasty branches, all stemming from a very *toxic* form of empathy. Other branches include supporting terrorists and even turning a blind eye towards welcoming them in, backing dictatorships, reverse racism, and rooting for the enemy out of "compassion"...

European politics seem to align with all of this, and may even be the source of it through media infiltration from the inside out. A covert tactic perhaps? Or maybe the result of intercommunication altogether in a more connected world, who all seem to speak our language. Maybe all these things.

With the exception of roughly 10%–15% of American or European liberals, support for unrestricted migration is rare. Your assertion presents a misleading narrative, though you are entitled to your opinion.

Personally, I welcome immigrants from all regions of the world and support providing a path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants who have lived in the USA for many years. I have voted for several Republican presidents who held these views; one president I supported twice referred to himself as a "compassionate conservative." Anyone who claims that compassionate conservative George W. Bush is "woke" is entirely mistaken.

Just because you disagree with these policies does not make them "woke."

Stopped_lurking · 2025-12-11T12:28:27-0600

Landon Caeli said:
When you ask me to break down which countries I'm talking about specifically, that means I'll be restricted to talking about "policy", per government, and not the changing sentiments of the Euroean people. There's no way I'd be willing to baracade myself into a narrow conversation like that. Especially not when people are the ones who change policy over time.

So what do you mean when you say that untramelled migration, and backing dictatorships are aligned with European politics? If you have data for the changing sentiments of the people of the different countries, we can discuss that. But that is of course reflected in how people vote, so what is the difference between that and policy?

Landon Caeli said:
We can see how wokism, amongst the people, have already changed the face of the democratic party, here in the United States, in the most drastic of ways.

Relevant to what you call European politics how?

Landon Caeli said:
Instead, I would prefer to focus on the root of all political change within a democratic society, which is the people themselves. I'm sure we can all see in our countries how opinions have evolved, and how politics follows. I'm sure we can all see how we're now communicating across the Atlantic.

What do you mean?

Landon Caeli · 2025-12-11T12:36:41-0600

Stopped_lurking said:
So what do you mean when you say that untramelled migration, and backing dictatorships are aligned with European politics? If you have data for the changing sentiments of the people of the different countries, we can discuss that. But that is of course reflected in how people vote, so what is the difference between that and policy?

The difference is that policy lags behind. We can see where things are headed, in the near future, by looking at the Universities, and the kinds of clubs, societies, programs and mood shifts within them. Policy might take 5 or more years to catch-up, but it eventually does. I think it can be figured out right here, where Europe is headed, but it's not going to be a simple task. We'll have to put in the time, together.

Universities teach the grade/high school teachers, who, in turn, teach the children. This is the catalyst for widespread political and ideological change in any given society. And it doesn't take long.

FAITH-IN-HIM · 2025-12-11T12:47:45-0600

Stopped_lurking said:
Could you please break that down per country so that I can get to what you are talking about? What does even untramelled mean? What countries support terrorists or turn a blind eye of welcoming them in? What countries in Europe back dictatorships?

What do you mean with European politics?

Edited to add!
Untramelled seems to mean unrestricted, what country in Europe have ever had unrestricted immigration? Not Sweden at least.

As of 2024, an estimated 9.9% of Europe's residents—about 44 million people—were born outside the continent. For many individuals, this situation is perceived as highly alarming, with concerns that aspects of white culture may be diminished or fundamentally altered within Europe.

I am a Regan conservative! I say Thank Goodness!

FAITH-IN-HIM · 2025-12-11T12:50:12-0600

Landon Caeli said:
The difference is that policy lags behind. We can see where things are headed, in the near future, by looking at the Universities, and the kinds of clubs, societies, programs and mood shifts within them. Policy might take 5 or more years to catch-up, but it eventually does. I think it can be figured out right here, where Europe is headed, but it's not going to be a simple task. We'll have to put in the time, together.

Universities teach the grade/high school teachers, who, in turn, teach the children. This is the catalyst for widespread political and ideological change in any given society. And it doesn't take long.

You make it sound as if Europe has been peaceful and democratic for 2,000 years, and now foreigners alone are causing chaos and authoritarianism.

Landon Caeli · 2025-12-11T12:52:12-0600

FAITH-IN-HIM said:
As of 2024, an estimated 9.9% of Europe's residents—about 44 million people—were born outside the continent. For many individuals, this situation is perceived as highly alarming, with concerns that aspects of white culture may be diminished or fundamentally altered within Europe.

I am a Regan conservative! I say Thank Goodness!

And this is why Trump is the president. I don't know what you think is going to happen, with this modern academic ideology of wokism, but it's going to cause a lot of trouble when you celebrate the erasure of a culture.

It is *not* nice, and I'm sure a large swath of European sentiment will be supporive of your position, so I'm not surprised by your vote in this thread.

Stopped_lurking · 2025-12-11T12:55:08-0600

Landon Caeli said:
The difference is that policy lags behind. We can see where things are headed, in the near future, by looking at the Universities, and the kinds of clubs, societies, programs and mood shifts within them. Policy might take 5 or more years to catch-up, but it eventually does. I think it can be figured out right here, where Europe is headed, but it's not going to be a simple task. We'll have to put in the time, together.

Universities teach the grade/high school teachers, who, in turn, teach the children. This is the catalyst for widespread political and ideological change in any given society. And it doesn't take long.

What data are you working from? I repeat part of my question, if you have data for the changing sentiments of the people of the different countries, we can discuss that. What are you referring to specifically? What do you believe is going to be figured out, and in which countries?

BCP1928 · 2025-12-11T12:58:41-0600

The bottom line is this. Working class men and women in general are better off in most of Europe than they are in the US, and US working class men and women are becoming aware of it. That is a disaster for MAGA just as it was a fatal to the neoliberal Democrats before them.

Trump’s team sees Europe’s ‘erasure.’

Should the EU stay together?

Yes, absolutely, because the whole entire world benefits from a united Europe

No

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Stuck on a ship.

Part of the IT crowd

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