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Trump dispenses with trials, orders military strike on alleged Venezuelan drug-trafficking boat (Now up to 2, 3, 4...)

RDKirk

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So the logic is bombing them is an entirely different matter than shooting them. And also shooting fleeing terrorists or criminals has always been a crime apparently. Looks like I need to brush up on reading law books from Bizzarro World.
Military law often looks like Bizzaro world from the outside.

For instance, the LOAC affected me in doing nuclear weapons targeting. If a valid military target happened to be within, say, ten miles of a city and the desired ground zero of that warhead had to be no further than a mile of the target to do the required amount of damage, I was required by the LOAC to place the DGZ a mile from the target on the opposite side from the city. What was "bizarre" is that the extra mile distance (rather than placing the DGZ right on the target) was of little practical benefit to the city.

I also had to account for prevailing winds, so if there happened to be another city a given distance downwind, I had to adjust my DGZ again so that the second city was not directly downwind of the DGZ.

Or maybe I had to select a different weapon that placed a lower yield warhead more precisely on the target...but then I have to jostle with all the other requirements for that different weapon.

And those rules for nuclear weapons targeting don't apply at all to high explosive bomb targeting.
The LOAC is largely symbolic in such cases. But for sure, when the targets were audited, I'd be in a world of horse manure if I had not placed that DGZ according to the LOAC.

So, what's my point? My point is that the LOAC rules for an infantry soldier dealing with a defeated enemy may be very different from the LOAC rules for a sailor dealing with a defeated enemy at sea. Within their own peculiar settings, different rules make sense, but they don't necessarily make consistent sense when viewed together.
 
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Hentenza

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You realize that you will soon be labelled as a Hamas supporting terrorist lover. How many American flags have you been burning lately?
Strawman. Never made that argument nor does it pertain to the topic at hand.
 
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BCP1928

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Strawman. You continue to paint with a wide brush. Christians are NOT responsible for shooting the survivors. I find it offensive that you would blame an incident by one or a group of people on the collective adherents of one religion. If you hate Christianity so much then what are you doing posting in a Christian site? Your argument is no argument just a malicious assumption on your part.

Maybe you need a snickers bar.
I am not blaming it on Christians. I have nothing but contempt for Christians who praise it.
 
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Hentenza

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But you can't bring yourself to say it was immoral. That is the stench in God's nostrils.
I said that it was criminal which, if proven in a court of law, would make it immoral. As I said, and I guess you ignored, is that what happened is against the law.

I’m not getting into a religious moral discussion with you so stop blaming Christianity. If you continue bashing Christianity I’m going to report your post because it is not a fair complaint in your part.
 
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Hentenza

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I am not blaming it on Christians. I have nothing but contempt for Christians who praise it.
Fine then address their posts but stop painting all Christians in the same light.
 
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RDKirk

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But you can't bring yourself to say it was immoral. That is the stench in God's nostrils.
I can say it's not in accordance with the Christian lifestyle.

I'd certainly like to talk to Peter and Paul about their take on Nero's use of the sword. I suspect they'd say that Nero had the authority to use the sword to keep public order, but Nero was going to hell anyway.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Which court lol. Do you mean the Venezuelan courts. Hum some how I don't think the Narcos care about courts and justice. Thats if you can catch them.

No one has bothered to bring any of these drug lords to justice and no courts will stop them. Arrest one and two replace them. The only thing they understand is an authority more powerful than they are and the threat of severe consequences if they continue.

Just like the terrorist they don't listen to reason because they are evil. There is no negociations for peace and order. Believe it or not but there is evil in the world that does not care for the way in which the west or Christian nations think.

Have you not noticed that the US courts have felt no compunction in prosecuting drug traffickers who never even entry the US? Recently the president of Honduras was tried, convicted, and sentenced to 40 years in a US federal prison for his efforts in trafficking 400 tons (!) of cocaine over a couple decades.

[voice off screen, peanuts style] wah wah wa waa wawah.

[Me] He did what?

[voice off screen, peanuts style] wah wawah wah waa wawah.

[Me] Oh [expletive deleted]!

Never mind.
 
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Perpetual Student

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Strawman. Never made that argument nor does it pertain to the topic at hand.
I kindly ask you to reread the post you reacted to. And my previous posts in this thread.
 
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Hentenza

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I kindly ask you to reread the post you reacted to. And my previous posts in this thread.
Ok. The messages are below. What did I miss?




Look up International Law and War law. Unless the survivor pauses an imminent danger then the shooting is illegal. This is designed for reciprocity during war.

Personally I have no problems taking the war on drugs to them but it is illegal to shoot survivors.

You realize that you will soon be labelled as a Hamas supporting terrorist lover. How many American flags have you been burning lately?
 
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essentialsaltes

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Rand Paul: Hegseth is either ‘lying to us’ about boat strike or ‘he’s incompetent’

“Secretary Hegseth said he had no knowledge of this and it did not happen. It was fake news. It didn’t happen,” Paul said. “And then the next day, from the podium of the White House, they’re saying it did happen.”

“So, either he was lying to us on Sunday, or he’s incompetent and didn’t know it had happened,” he continued.

1764798140506.png


“So as a country, are we just going to let people lie to us to our face? Are we going to let them kill people who they call enemies anytime in the world? Are we going to let them, like when someone is stranded and holding on to the scraps of a boat, put a second bomb on them?” he continued.

“I think it’s outrageous and should be universally condemned,” he said
 
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iluvatar5150

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Look up International Law and War law. Unless the survivor pauses an imminent danger then the shooting is illegal. This is designed for reciprocity during war.
Post it then. Let's see the exact wording of what you read.
Personally I have no problems taking the war on drugs to them but it is illegal to shoot survivors.
So once a missile is fired in a military operation the rest of the enemy is off limits.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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“So as a country, are we just going to let people lie to us to our face?
Considering we reelected the guy who lied to the whole country about the 2020 election… yeah we are.
 
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RDKirk

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Post it then. Let's see the exact wording of what you read.

So once a missile is fired in a military operation the rest of the enemy is off limits.
Here you go. Better edit with link. The first version was from LOAC training, this is the source.
8.2.2 Unprivileged Belligerents
Unprivileged belligerents include members of organized armed groups and civilians directly participating in hostilities (see 5.4.1.1). Members of organized armed groups are subject to attack at any time during the armed conflict unless they are hors de combat. Unprivileged belligerents placed hors de combat are not considered POWs, but must be treated humanely. Civilians directly participating in hostilities forfeit the protections from attack afforded to civilians under the law of armed conflict and may be attacked while they are taking a direct part in hostilities. If captured, they are not considered POWs and may be tried and punished under domestic law.

8.2.3 Hors de Combat
Combatants and unprivileged belligerents who are hors de combat are those who cannot, do not, or cease to participate in hostilities due to wounds, sickness, shipwreck, surrender, or capture. They may be detained, but they may not be intentionally or indiscriminately attacked. Intentional attack on a combatant who is known to be hors de combat constitutes a grave breach of the law of armed conflict.

11.4 UNPRIVILEGED BELLIGERENTS
Unprivileged belligerents (see 5.4.1.2) do not have a right to engage in hostilities and do not receive combatant immunity for their hostile acts. They are not entitled to POW status if detained. As with any person detained by the United States, they are entitled to humane treatment as a matter of law and U.S. policy. See 11.2.

11.7 PERSONNEL HORS DE COMBAT
Combatants who have been rendered incapable of combat (hors de combat) by wounds, sickness, shipwreck, surrender, or capture are entitled to special protections including assistance and medical attention, if necessary. Parties to the conflict must, after each engagement and without delay, take all possible measures to search for and collect the wounded and sick on the field of battle, protect them from harm, and ensure their care. When circumstances permit, a cease-fire should be arranged to enable the wounded and sick to be located and removed to safety and medical care. Wounded and sick personnel falling into enemy hands must be treated humanely and cared for without adverse distinction along with the enemy’s own casualties. Priority in order of treatment may only be determined according to medical considerations. The physical and mental well-being of enemy wounded and sick personnel may not be unjustifiably endangered, nor may the wounded and sick be subjected to any medical procedure not called for by their condition or inconsistent with accepted medical standards.

A similar duty extends to shipwrecked persons, whether military or civilian. Shipwrecked persons include those in peril at sea or in other waters as a result of the sinking, grounding, or other damage to a vessel in which they are embarked, or of the downing or distress of an aircraft. It is immaterial whether the peril was the result of enemy action or nonmilitary causes. Following each naval engagement at sea, the belligerents are obligated to take all possible measures, consistent with the security of their forces, to search for and rescue the shipwrecked. The status of persons detained—combatant, unprivileged belligerent, noncombatant, or civilian—does not change as a result of becoming incapacitated by wounds, sickness, shipwreck, or surrender. The decision to continue detention of persons hors de combat and the status of such detainees will be determined by their prior
classification.

The Commander’s Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations (NWP 1‑14M / MCTP 11‑10B / COMDTPUB P5800.7A)
 
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iluvatar5150

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Each belligerent must treat his fallen adversaries as he would the wounded of his own armed forces.
Hmm... I smell a loophole. The kind of guy who doesn't like losers might be inclined to "double tap" the weaker members of his pack, which would mean that doing so to the enemy would just be following the rules of treating them like his own.

1764800712063.png
 
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Aryeh Jay

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Hmm... I smell a loophole. The kind of guy who doesn't like losers might be inclined to "double tap" the weaker members of his pack, which would mean that doing so to the enemy would just be following the rules of treating them like his own.

View attachment 373968
I don't know why Pat Tillman came to my mind.
 
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Hentenza

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Post it then. Let's see the exact wording of what you read.
You want me to do the research for you?

There you go.

Section 5.4.7 of the DOD Law of War Manualsays:

Prohibition Against Declaring That No Quarter Be Given. It is forbidden to declare that no quarter will be given. This means that it is prohibited to order that legitimate offers of surrender will be refused or that detainees, such as unprivileged belligerents, will be summarily executed. Moreover, it is also prohibited to conduct hostilities on the basis that there shall be no survivors, or to threaten the adversary with the denial of quarter. This rule is based on both humanitarian and military considerations. This rule also applies during non-international armed conflict.
So once a missile is fired in a military operation the rest of the enemy is off limits.
That’s quite the twist you have there. Think of it as torpedo hitting an enemy ship and then killing all of the survivors that jumped in the water. Do you think that would be right?
 
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jacorian

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Here you go. Better edit with link. The first version was from LOAC training, this is the source.


The Commander’s Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations (NWP 1‑14M / MCTP 11‑10B / COMDTPUB P5800.7A)
Frankly the Commander in Chief does have authority to order these individual attacks such as taking out the vessels. We have been doing it for several years...the Iranian takeout, the takeout of Hutsis attacking vessels in the Red Sea area, the Somali pirates, the taking out of Bin Laden, & the use of drones that have taken out a number of these terrorist leaders. The world is better off for it. Enough of this garbage about arrest & trial. These are not ordinary criminals. This comes under military law & defense of country. Whether it's fentanyl trafficking, use of some cyber scheme on the energy grid, enviro terrorism, a nuclear attack, a biological weapon, one does not treat this as some crime in the code. These things represent the most evil of things that go on in our world. You cannot negotiate with Satan. These thugs for too many centuries have walked in darkness. Humanity's efforts to lighten their hearts or rehab them is absurd. You cannot rehab Satan or his apostates.
 
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