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Elijah Comes First

Minister Monardo

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Those who rejected Jesus of Nazareth rejected John the Baptist first.

Luke 7:28 For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. 29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John...6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.

The Question: Does the Church look for the coming of Elijah? Would he come to Israel, or to the remnant of Judah who remain in Iran?

Iran still hosts the largest Jewish population in the Middle East outside Israel. The community maintains an active religious and cultural life, with synagogues, Jewish schools, kosher food, and even a Jewish hospital in Tehran.

I don't know if you bothered to watch the Netflix limited series "The Messiah", if not, you must not be that concerned with what deceptions Satan has been presenting to the world. First of all, he was of Iranian/Persian descent. Most interesting was that there was more controversy among practitioners of Islam, at least those who issued complaints to Netflix.



AI Overview



Yes, the Netflix series Messiah generated significant controversy, particularly from Muslims who called it "evil and anti-Islamic propaganda". Critics pointed to the main character's name, "Al-Masih ad-Dajjal," which translates to "the False Messiah" or "the Antichrist" in Islamic tradition, creating a premise they found deeply offensive and blasphemous. Petitions were launched to boycott the show, and some countries, like Jordan, called for Netflix to ban it.
  • Allegations of anti-Islamic sentiment: Many viewers and officials, particularly in Muslim communities, considered the show's premise an attack on Islam.
  • Character's name: The main character's name, "Al-Masih ad-Dajjal," was seen as a direct reference to the Dajjal (the Antichrist) in Islam, which is a figure of deception and evil.
  • Petitions and calls for a ban: Multiple petitions were started to boycott the series, with one on Change.org garnering thousands of signatures. The Royal Film Commission of Jordan also called on Netflix to ban the series.
  • Netflix's response: Netflix defended the series by stating it was a work of fiction and not based on any single religion or character, while also noting that the character's name was not specified as his real name.
  • Director's perspective: The show's director, Kate Woods, stated that the show was intended to be provocative and generate controversy.
  • DUH!
 

johansen

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I think that there is still evidence for a difference to this day among christians who have responded to the call of God and have conviction of sin (which is what john's baptism was)

vs those who have been born again and baptized with the Holy Spirit.

and such a distinction would explain a significant number of disagreements between entire denominations.
 
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Minister Monardo

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I think that there is still evidence for a difference to this day among christians who have responded to the call of God and have conviction of sin (which is what john's baptism was)

vs those who have been born again and baptized with the Holy Spirit.

and such a distinction would explain a significant number of disagreements between entire denominations.
Those who rejected Jesus of Nazareth rejected John the Baptist first.

Luke 7:28 For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. 29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John...6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.

The Question: Does the Church look for the coming of Elijah? Would he come to Israel, or to the remnant of Judah who remain in Iran?
I was unable to make a connection between your comment and the topic.
 
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eleos1954

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Those who rejected Jesus of Nazareth rejected John the Baptist first.

Luke 7:28 For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. 29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John...6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.

The Question: Does the Church look for the coming of Elijah? Would he come to Israel, or to the remnant of Judah who remain in Iran?

Iran still hosts the largest Jewish population in the Middle East outside Israel. The community maintains an active religious and cultural life, with synagogues, Jewish schools, kosher food, and even a Jewish hospital in Tehran.

I don't know if you bothered to watch the Netflix limited series "The Messiah", if not, you must not be that concerned with what deceptions Satan has been presenting to the world. First of all, he was of Iranian/Persian descent. Most interesting was that there was more controversy among practitioners of Islam, at least those who issued complaints to Netflix.



AI Overview



Yes, the Netflix series Messiah generated significant controversy, particularly from Muslims who called it "evil and anti-Islamic propaganda". Critics pointed to the main character's name, "Al-Masih ad-Dajjal," which translates to "the False Messiah" or "the Antichrist" in Islamic tradition, creating a premise they found deeply offensive and blasphemous. Petitions were launched to boycott the show, and some countries, like Jordan, called for Netflix to ban it.
  • Allegations of anti-Islamic sentiment: Many viewers and officials, particularly in Muslim communities, considered the show's premise an attack on Islam.
  • Character's name: The main character's name, "Al-Masih ad-Dajjal," was seen as a direct reference to the Dajjal (the Antichrist) in Islam, which is a figure of deception and evil.
  • Petitions and calls for a ban: Multiple petitions were started to boycott the series, with one on Change.org garnering thousands of signatures. The Royal Film Commission of Jordan also called on Netflix to ban the series.
  • Netflix's response: Netflix defended the series by stating it was a work of fiction and not based on any single religion or character, while also noting that the character's name was not specified as his real name.
  • Director's perspective: The show's director, Kate Woods, stated that the show was intended to be provocative and generate controversy.
  • DUH!
Jesus confirms this prophecy was fulfilled in John the Baptist, who came with the "spirit and power of Elijah" to prepare people for the coming of the Messiah.

Note:
Those who rejected Jesus of Nazareth rejected John the Baptist first.

Luke 7:28 For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. 29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John...6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.

The Question: Does the Church look for the coming of Elijah? Would he come to Israel, or to the remnant of Judah who remain in Iran?

Iran still hosts the largest Jewish population in the Middle East outside Israel. The community maintains an active religious and cultural life, with synagogues, Jewish schools, kosher food, and even a Jewish hospital in Tehran.

I don't know if you bothered to watch the Netflix limited series "The Messiah", if not, you must not be that concerned with what deceptions Satan has been presenting to the world. First of all, he was of Iranian/Persian descent. Most interesting was that there was more controversy among practitioners of Islam, at least those who issued complaints to Netflix.



AI Overview



Yes, the Netflix series Messiah generated significant controversy, particularly from Muslims who called it "evil and anti-Islamic propaganda". Critics pointed to the main character's name, "Al-Masih ad-Dajjal," which translates to "the False Messiah" or "the Antichrist" in Islamic tradition, creating a premise they found deeply offensive and blasphemous. Petitions were launched to boycott the show, and some countries, like Jordan, called for Netflix to ban it.
  • Allegations of anti-Islamic sentiment: Many viewers and officials, particularly in Muslim communities, considered the show's premise an attack on Islam.
  • Character's name: The main character's name, "Al-Masih ad-Dajjal," was seen as a direct reference to the Dajjal (the Antichrist) in Islam, which is a figure of deception and evil.
  • Petitions and calls for a ban: Multiple petitions were started to boycott the series, with one on Change.org garnering thousands of signatures. The Royal Film Commission of Jordan also called on Netflix to ban the series.
  • Netflix's response: Netflix defended the series by stating it was a work of fiction and not based on any single religion or character, while also noting that the character's name was not specified as his real name.
  • Director's perspective: The show's director, Kate Woods, stated that the show was intended to be provocative and generate controversy.
  • DUH!
Those who are to prepare the way for the second coming of Christ are represented (symbolized) by faithful Elijah, as John came in the spirit of Elijah to prepare the way for Christ’s first advent.

It's not a physical appearance of Elijah going to happen
 
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The Liturgist

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The Question: Does the Church look for the coming of Elijah? Would he come to Israel, or to the remnant of Judah who remain in Iran?

St. Elias did come, at the the Transfiguration on Mount Tabor, described in all three synoptic Gospels. St. Moses was also present.

This feast is regarded by Orthodox Christians as the replacement for Sukkot.
 
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The Liturgist

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well, the topic is irrelevant because Elijah is not going to come again.

Well, he will return along with everyone else in the General Resurrection, albeit from a different vector, since St. Elias along with St. Moses, St. Enoch and our Glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary, is among those taken up into heaven bodily, either on the occasion of their repose or in the case of St. Elias, via a chariot of fire (in the case of the Theotokos, her repose helped prove the reality of the human nature of her Son; had she been assumed without dying, as a minority of Roman Catholics believe (I’m pretty sure its a minority; my beloved Roman Catholic friends @chevyontheriver and @Xeno.of.athens might be able to clarify that), it could have created a cause for Docetists to promote the heresy denying the full humanity of Christ our God, which was the most common heresy until the fourth century when, following in the direction of Paul of Samosata, the first Unitarian, and so corrupt the Romans arrested him for embezzling from the church in the only instance where Christians were assisted by the Roman Empire before the Edict of Milan in 314 AD under St. Constantine, Arius established a large sect denying the deity of Christ, whose errors are still felt in various cults like the J/Ws, Unitarian Unversalists and others.
 
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chevyontheriver

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(in the case of the Theotokos, her repose helped prove the reality of the human nature of her Son; had she been assumed without dying, as a minority of Roman Catholics believe (I’m pretty sure its a minority; my beloved Roman Catholic friends @chevyontheriver and @Xeno.of.athens might be able to clarify that), it could have created a cause for Docetists to promote the heresy denying the full humanity of Christ our God, which was the most common heresy until the fourth century when, following in the direction of Paul of Samosata, the first Unitarian, and so corrupt the Romans arrested him for embezzling from the church in the only instance where Christians were assisted by the Roman Empire before the Edict of Milan in 314 AD under St. Constantine, Arius established a large sect denying the deity of Christ, whose errors are still felt in various cults like the J/Ws, Unitarian Unversalists and others.
There is no compulsion from the teaching Church to believe that she died before being assumed or did not die first. For the time being we are free to believe either position and not free to condemn the other position. Myself, I leave it an open question. Kind of like whether GNU HURD will ever be finished.

Anyway, I await the return of Elijah, and am beginning to hope it is soon.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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had she been assumed without dying, as a minority of Roman Catholics believe (I’m pretty sure its a minority; my beloved Roman Catholic friends @chevyontheriver and @Xeno.of.athens might be able to clarify that)
That is an area still open for debate as far as I know since I haven't found any dogmatic definition that excludes the possibility of the Blessed Mary never dying. As for myself, "I do not know", is my reply. I await the deliberations of theologians and bishops to make a definitive declaration if and when such is deemed as necessary.
 
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The Liturgist

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That is an area still open for debate as far as I know since I haven't found any dogmatic definition that excludes the possibility of the Blessed Mary never dying. As for myself, "I do not know", is my reply. I await the deliberations of theologians and bishops to make a definitive declaration if and when such is deemed as necessary.

Your approach is always wise.

To be clear, I don’t believe she ever died in a spiritual sense of the word, but rather, like all the saints, reposed in the Lord and was alive in Christ from the moment she reposed, even before her body was taken up into heaven.

Specifically, the problem with the denial of the dormition aspect of the Assumption is that at Chalcedon the Patriarch of Jerusalem informed the Emperor, who desired to venerate the relics of the Theotokos, that on the occasion of her death she was attended by all the Apostles, but two weeks later St. Thomas desired her tomb to be opened, and it was found to be empty.

A more detailed account in the Orthodox synaxarium states that the tomb was opened for the benefit of St. Thomas, who, traveling from the East (recall, he founded in the Church in India, and would later receive the crown of martyrdom there in 53 AD, when an angry maharaja threw a javelin at him; the site of his martyrdom is now a Roman Catholic Church and is a candidate for being the oldest church built on the site of a martyrdom in continual use), that St. Thomas did not arrive in time to see the Theotokos repose, and overwhelmed with grief, asked for her tomb to be opened, which the other Apostles agreed to, and they collectively were greatly surprised (that is to say, shocked, awed and delighted) to find the tomb was empty, and it was thus revealed that the Theotokos had been assumed just like St. Moses and St. Elijah were.

Thus we benefit from saying she reposed, both for historical reasons, and also because it proves the means of our own salvation, in that it establishes the promise of Christ to resurrect us is not in vain, for clearly, he has already done this in the case of the Theotokos, having resurrected and taken her up to Heaven, as happened with himself, and also it establishes that Christ was fully human, because if his mother did not repose before being assumed, this could fuel the deadly fires of docetism, the denial of the full humanity of Christ. It must be asserted beyond any doubt that Christ is consubstantial with us, according to the theology of the Councils of Nicaea, Constantinople and Ephesus, in a state of hypostatic union, as taught by St. Cyril (and thus believed by both Eastern and Oriental Orthodox as well as other Chalcedonians) fully human and fully divine, without change, confusion, separation or division between His humanity and divinity.

Now, I am fairly certain, on reflection, this is the Roman Catholic teaching, but would request the help of any of my pious Roman Catholic friends such as @Michie @RileyG @Valletta @concretecamper and @chevyontheriver in verifying this, to make sure I’m not in error.

What I did, since I’m not familiar with the Catechism of the Catholic Church or how it is structured, was look to the liturgy, which presumably is doctrinally authoritative, and found from the current version of the Liturgy of the Hours, at the Office of Readings (formerly known as Matins), the Second Reading on the feast of the Assumption:

“Thus Saint John Damascene, preeminent as the great preacher of this truth of tradition, speaks with powerful eloquence when he relates the bodily assumption of the loving Mother of God to her other gifts and privileges: “It was necessary that she who had preserved her virginity inviolate in childbirth should also have her body kept free from all corruption after death. It was necessary that she who had carried the Creator as a child on her breast should dwell in the tabernacles of God. It was necessary that the bride espoused by the Father should make her home in the bridal chambers of heaven. It was necessary that she, who had gazed on her crucified Son and been pierced in the heart by the sword of sorrow which she had escaped in giving him birth, should contemplate him seated with the Father. It was necessary that the Mother of God should share the possessions of her Son, and be venerated by every creature as the Mother and handmaid of God.”

If I’m reading the dogmatic definition of Pope Piux XII correctly, from the second reading of the Office of Readings at the Liturgy of the Hours, it appears that he refers to the body of the Theotokos being taken up into heaven after death:

At Matins for this feast, in the old Divine Office (according to the old Tridentine and Dominican uses), historically the Fourth through Sixth Readings, quoted the aforementioned homily of St. John of Damascus directly:

“Eve, who had said yea to the proposals of the serpent, was condemned to the pains of travail and the punishment of death, and found her place in the bowels of the Netherworld. But this truly blessed being who had inclined her ears to the word of God, whose womb had been filled by the action of the Holy Ghost, who, as soon as she heard the spiritual salutation of the archangel, had conceived the Son of God without any sexual pleasure or carnal knowledge by a man, who had brought forth her Offspring without any the least pang, who had hallowed herself altogether for the service of God how was death ever to feed upon her? how was the grave ever to eat her up? how was corruption to break into that body into which Life had been welcomed? For her there was a straight, smooth, and easy way to heaven. For if Christ, Who is the Life and the Truth, hath said Where I am, there shall also My servant be how much more shall not rather His mother be with Him?”

On a more poetic and beautiful note, the same Assumptions Matins traditionally featured this lovely hymn:

Arise! the cold blasts from earth have receded,
And in the field are lovely flowers smiling,
For thee, O gracious Mother, bearer of Life,
Arise, O Mary!

Beautiful Lily blooming 'mid the brambles,
Death's haughty author thou alone didst conquer,
Plucking life-giving tree of fruits the fathers
By sin did not taste.

Ark of sweet wood not destined for ruin,
Holding the manna, whence springeth forth the power
Summoning forth the bones again arisen
From depths of the tomb.

Thou handmaid, faithful to the Ruler of hearts,
Thy flesh cruel decay could never touch,
Thy soul of Spirit partaking without end,
Hath winged to the stars.

Leaning on thy beloved, arise, go heav'nward!
Accept the crown with stars for thee bedecked,
List to the hymn thy children sing on this day,
Calling thee blessed.

Praise to the Triune Godhead everlasting,
Who hath caused thee, O Virgin, to be crowned,
And providently willed our Queen thou shouldst be
Also our Mother.
Amen.



I would expect to find this hymn in the Orthodox Western Rite liturgy; I shall take a look. It is such a pity so few Roman Catholics are able to easily access the Liturgy of the Hours or older forms of the Divine Office outside of monasteries and some cathedrals. For the most part, priests, friars and tertiaries of religious orders, who are required to pray the Liturgy of the Hours daily, do so privately. This has also become de rigeur in the Maronite Rite, where the Divine Office, which is in a book called the Shimo, meaning “Simple” became known as the Fard (meaning “obligation”).

The Byzantine Rite Eastern Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox sing the following hymn at Vespers on the Feast of the Dormition (Assumption), which like in the Latin Rite, is on August 15th*. The version, to be of particular relevance to my Roman Catholic friends, I took from a Byzantine Catholic version of the Menaion**, the book containing the propers for the Divine Office for all fixed feasts, from the Metropolitan Cantor Institute (which serves the Ruthenian Greek Catholic churches): Menaion - August 15 (MCI)
The holy apostles were taken up from every corner of the world * and carried upon clouds by the command of God. * They gathered around your pure body, O Source of Life, * and kissed it with reverence. * As for the most sublime powers of heaven, * they came with their own leader * to escort and to pay their last respects to the most honorable body * that had contained Life itself. * Filled with awe, they marched together with the apostles in silent majesty, * professing to the princes of heaven in a hushed voice: * Lift up your gates and receive, with becoming majesty, * the Mother of the Light that never fades, * because, through her, salvation was made possible for our human race. * She is the One upon whom no one may gaze, * and to whom no one is able to render sufficient glory; * for the special honor that made her sublime is beyond understanding. * Therefore, O most pure Theotokos, * forever alive with your Son, the Source of Life, * do not cease to intercede with Him * that he may guard and save your people from every trouble; * for you are our intercessor. * To you we sing a hymn of glory * with loud and joyful voices, now and forever.

* in antiquity however, it was historicallly celebrated in January in Egypt and in the Gallican Rite, which was once the main liturgy in France, also a Latin liturgy, but very different from the Roman Rite, most closely related to the Mozarabic RIte, still celebrated in the cathedral of Toledo and a monastery, and the Ambrosian Rite which is used by over a million Catholics in the DIocese of Milan, which is celebrated with great reverence, the main difference being that over the years, the Ambrosian Rite wound up always using the Roman Canon as its Anaphora (although with the post-1969 reforms, it has six Eucharistic Prayers; I have not examined them but my understanding is that one of them is the Roman Canon, and three correspond to Eucharistic Prayers II-IV, and presumably the other two are based on the highly variable traditional Gallican and Mozarabic Eucharistic prayer. Now that I have good access to Italian language resources I should seek to find this out.
 
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